I've really been pondering this, but I don't have a substantive answer for you. In large part, it's because any advice I offer would be based on numerous presuppositions (starting with the truthfulness of what you describe, which, without more information, might easily be unfair to the man we are describing).
So I answer with the greatest hesitation, and even then only as generally as I can.
First and foremost, consider what's in the best interest of the children. We're all somewhat familiar, I think, with the benefit (by general comparison) of children being raised in a household where both parents are present. Is this man's actual abusiveness (mental, emotional, heaven forbid otherwise) strong enough to outweigh that consideration? Then leave, and don't look back. You brought kids into the world. Protecting them and ensuring their health and nurturing is your top priority.
Let's assume that the answer to the above question is yes, the children are better off without him. She needs to identify any obstacle to her children's well-being and do everything in her power to remove those obstacles. This can be exceedingly painful (emotionally) and wrenching. It may involve separating yourself from people and situations you've grown to trust and depend on. You say she's in a "fundamentalist Christian cult." I don't know what you mean by that. She is the sole arbiter of whether that cult is the right place for her to be, and for her children to be. If it is not, then she should cut ties without a shred of guilt. Any "faith" that subordinates the well-being of my kids to itself is not a "faith" worth holding onto, in my opinion.
We have a slew of unanswered questions: does she have family able and willing to provide the kind of emotional and physical support she is going to need to stay strong throughout what promises to be a very long and difficult process? Can she provide for herself and her children without his assistance (his assistance would be great, but banking on it would not be wise)?
I don't know, those are some initial thoughts. I did not include prayer and profound self-reflection explicitly, but those are to be understood as implicit in everything I'm suggesting.
I think the bottom line of what I'm saying is to put the kids first, not as an excuse to do what she wants to do anyway, but as a priority that ultimately determines the actions she will take.
How do you get out when one spouse wants to stay and is mentally and emotionally abusive? Especially when there are children involved?
If that question could be phrased equally about the marriage as it could about cult involvement, then I don't think this is a question about the group at all. Every individual deserves a family that works from a basis of mutual respect. If the marriage is unhealthy, then decisions need to be made on that basis. Counseling, different future paths, etc.
That this decision involves both that of deciding about a marriage as well as deciding about a church, you have a person that is going through two incredibly difficult life changing events all at the same time. Of course I'm taking your word about the marriage being in trouble. Being pregnant with a second child is another major thing.
The woman very obviously needs a lot of love and a support structure including friends that care. Like you. People need support systems to make decisions that are best for their own lives. If they don't have that, then they gravitate to their current situation as the only reality they have an option for.
He has stated that he was told by God that this second child would be a boy and would do great things. He is going to make this incredibly difficult for her. She has asked for help from me because I have been in a cult... but I haven't been in a controlling abusive relationship.
Any advice or stories would be appreciated. Thanks, guys.
He certainly sounds like he has designs for the kids future in a cult. However, you never can tell where people will end up. That couple is a unit, and has to figure it out for their lives and futures. For her, you can't act out of or plan from a position of fear or negative belief about what the future may bring, you have to make positive plans with a trust in God. She needs a support system outside her husband, and the marriage issue is more important than the cult issue, but that's a battlefield priority.
Too many things stacking up at once. They need to be slowed down and dealt with one at a time.
The additional pressure with being in a fundamentalist Christian group is that a woman leaving her marriage is seen as sinning against God. "Husband is head of the wife" and all that. Mentally and emotionally, it is also difficult if all her friends and confidants are in the church. No one to give perspective, no examples of women with successful, happy, and peaceful lives outside of the belief system she is surrounded by.
We have a friend who was in a very similar situation, her hubby found a cult/church, she went along and finally it became too much for her, he cheated, she left. Many of these ultra strict cults will find a way to weave a license for sexual sin into their belief system. She had a church to return to and a built in support system with family, but it is still really hard on her. I read some of her FB posts and my heart breaks.
I don't know how to counsel someone in that situation. Pregnant and vulnerable, or with small children and vulnerable......what do you say? Leave your husband or stay and suck it up and pray?
This is why I hate religiosity. It always seems to end in heartache.
We have a friend who was in a very similar situation, her hubby found a cult/church, she went along and finally it became too much for her, he cheated, she left. Many of these ultra strict cults will find a way to weave a license for sexual sin into their belief system. She had a church to return to and a built in support system with family, but it is still really hard on her. I read some of her FB posts and my heart breaks.
I don't know how to counsel someone in that situation. Pregnant and vulnerable, or with small children and vulnerable......what do you say? Leave your husband or stay and suck it up and pray?
This is why I hate religiosity. It always seems to end in heartache.
Once I realized that my marriage was based on his false pretenses (he never intended to love like Christ loved the church, Gal. 5), and once I realized that God didn't call anyone to an abusive marriage, but to one of peace (I Cor. 7:15), I had no religious qualms about getting out of the marriage. It wasn't easy, but it was one of the smartest choices I ever made. The alcoholic ex-husband continued to drink, continued to abuse, and emotionally destroyed the next person he married (according to her daughter). He didn't destroy me or my kids.
The "false pretences" are exactly right in this case. He was abusive before they were married (isolation from her family, monitoring of every call, email, and Facebook activity, constant accusations of cheating if she didn't answer her phone or left a text message unanswered for more than a minute. When she did get to a family gathering her phone would go off every five minutes with texts from this guy.). She was ready to leave him, but then he got involved with this church and suddenly did a 180. They got married a couple of months later in that church. When I got there and the ceremony started I started having flashbacks to twi. The sermon was about how wives needed to submit to their husbands... and an advertisement for the church. A church member tried to take my fidgety daughter out of the church without my permission (my kid was with her grandpa playing on the floor on an outer aisle of the church - not disturbing anyone. She was three at the time and the service had already lasted over an hour and a half.). At that point I decided to go outside with her and calm myself down - and the ushers tried to tell me I couldn't leave. I did anyway....
Anyways... I figured I would stay out of it unless asked to help. She is in a difficult situation. Now he is back to his controlling of her every move even with family since it has become evident that none of us are interested in converting. And now he has the sanctioning of the church and the Bible to help control her.
We have a friend who was in a very similar situation, her hubby found a cult/church, she went along and finally it became too much for her, he cheated, she left. Many of these ultra strict cults will find a way to weave a license for sexual sin into their belief system. She had a church to return to and a built in support system with family, but it is still really hard on her. I read some of her FB posts and my heart breaks.
I don't know how to counsel someone in that situation. Pregnant and vulnerable, or with small children and vulnerable......what do you say? Leave your husband or stay and suck it up and pray?
This is why I hate religiosity. It always seems to end in heartache.
All you can say is that you understand and empathize... and that you can't be the one making her decisions for her. Maybe say what you (think you) would do if you were in her position, but you don't want to take responsibility if she takes your advice and regrets it later... do you?
Having been through divorce, I can say confidently that one of the most important things a person going through it needs is emotional support. Friends can do, be and provide that. :)
You can see what's happening, but you can't make up your friend's mind. You can be ready with a shoulder to cry on. Remember how difficult it was for you, at times. Remember how traumatic it's been for some people whose stories you have read here. Be supportive and maybe you can find some other support for her - support groups or whatever.
It's clear you don't like the husband much. Try not to slag him off too much, but it would be fair to draw parallels between how his behavior differs from that seen in Jesus and his followers (you already have the lowdown on that!).
Pray for them both. You don't know what things have really gone into the husband's make-up that make him who he is, and why this cult he's joined satisfies his needs - what he finds there that satisfies. Be non-judgmental, but firm about boundaries that you will accept in his behavior if he visits you. Or if the wife does leave and seeks safety at your house.
Hearing that story reminds me of friends and stories related to trying to keep marriages intact while leaving TWI. There are many fears related to this people deal with. Definitely the questions about the future. "Will my spouse leave me because I'm leaving the church?" Also making me sad are the memories of leaders in TWI getting in the middle of marriages and splitting them up. Just the look on the faces of certain people - a sadness and a look like they are just lost and don't know what to do. Like they sacrificed their marriage and kids, but are still "standing on the Word". Those leaders and clergy in TWI splitting up marriages and doing that to people deserve a special piece of judgment.
All you can say is that you understand and empathize... and that you can't be the one making her decisions for her. Maybe say what you (think you) would do if you were in her position, but you don't want to take responsibility if she takes your advice and regrets it later... do you?
Having been through divorce, I can say confidently that one of the most important things a person going through it needs is emotional support. Friends can do, be and provide that.
I think being a a supportive and loving friend is the best possible advice....and you are so right.......we can't make decisions for others concerning their marriages. Even if advice is solicited....it makes me uncomfortable to get too involved. If someone is in danger, we can help them to organizations or women's shelters who are equipped to handle these situations.
I coupon and then make care packages for the women's shelter to give to the women who arrive with nothing. Shampoo, toothpaste, formula and diapers are helpful when you come in empty handed.
The "false pretences" are exactly right in this case. He was abusive before they were married (isolation from her family, monitoring of every call, email, and Facebook activity, constant accusations of cheating if she didn't answer her phone or left a text message unanswered for more than a minute. When she did get to a family gathering her phone would go off every five minutes with texts from this guy.). She was ready to leave him, but then he got involved with this church and suddenly did a 180. They got married a couple of months later in that church. When I got there and the ceremony started I started having flashbacks to twi. The sermon was about how wives needed to submit to their husbands... and an advertisement for the church. A church member tried to take my fidgety daughter out of the church without my permission (my kid was with her grandpa playing on the floor on an outer aisle of the church - not disturbing anyone. She was three at the time and the service had already lasted over an hour and a half.). At that point I decided to go outside with her and calm myself down - and the ushers tried to tell me I couldn't leave. I did anyway....
Anyways... I figured I would stay out of it unless asked to help. She is in a difficult situation. Now he is back to his controlling of her every move even with family since it has become evident that none of us are interested in converting. And now he has the sanctioning of the church and the Bible to help control her.
It makes me sad.
Thanks for the help, everyone.
Hey JJ, you've listed a lot of "red flags." This man sounds dangerous to me.
JavaJane, I married with the express wish that we would have at least one, probably two children, and that changed as TWI got more controlling and parents were "exhorted" to have the mother be a stay at home mom. No way to do that on a police officer's salary.... and my ex was not physically but emotionally abusive so, while I'm glad we didn't have kids together, I regret staying in the marriage past the ability to have the fambly I so wanted.
She has to realize on her own - no one can force her - what's best for her and her kiddos. What she needs is support and encouragement that she can do it and that it's best to limit the time the kiddos get with that kind of influence. She needs loved ones to build up her own self esteem and strength because we can't fight battles for others. It's a hard lesson I've learned. They have to want it bad enough to fight for themselves and those who depend on them.
My family was magnificent at doing this for me - I just moved too slowly to still be young enough to realie my own dreams. She can still be a stellar mother and have a great, loving family without the ..... My dad's wife now has kids who are totally scarred and fighting every day because their mom stayed with an alcoholic arse waaaayyyy tooo long to be healthy for kids. I kinda get ....ed at her at times for not being strong enough to protect her babies but we can only do what we're strong enough to and know to do, right? If you want more info or whatever, feel free to contact me.
My heart goes out to you and your friend! Neither is a good place to be. :)
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Raf
I've really been pondering this, but I don't have a substantive answer for you. In large part, it's because any advice I offer would be based on numerous presuppositions (starting with the truthfulness of what you describe, which, without more information, might easily be unfair to the man we are describing).
So I answer with the greatest hesitation, and even then only as generally as I can.
First and foremost, consider what's in the best interest of the children. We're all somewhat familiar, I think, with the benefit (by general comparison) of children being raised in a household where both parents are present. Is this man's actual abusiveness (mental, emotional, heaven forbid otherwise) strong enough to outweigh that consideration? Then leave, and don't look back. You brought kids into the world. Protecting them and ensuring their health and nurturing is your top priority.
Let's assume that the answer to the above question is yes, the children are better off without him. She needs to identify any obstacle to her children's well-being and do everything in her power to remove those obstacles. This can be exceedingly painful (emotionally) and wrenching. It may involve separating yourself from people and situations you've grown to trust and depend on. You say she's in a "fundamentalist Christian cult." I don't know what you mean by that. She is the sole arbiter of whether that cult is the right place for her to be, and for her children to be. If it is not, then she should cut ties without a shred of guilt. Any "faith" that subordinates the well-being of my kids to itself is not a "faith" worth holding onto, in my opinion.
We have a slew of unanswered questions: does she have family able and willing to provide the kind of emotional and physical support she is going to need to stay strong throughout what promises to be a very long and difficult process? Can she provide for herself and her children without his assistance (his assistance would be great, but banking on it would not be wise)?
I don't know, those are some initial thoughts. I did not include prayer and profound self-reflection explicitly, but those are to be understood as implicit in everything I'm suggesting.
I think the bottom line of what I'm saying is to put the kids first, not as an excuse to do what she wants to do anyway, but as a priority that ultimately determines the actions she will take.
I wish her well.
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shazdancer
PM'ed you. -- Shaz
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JavaJane
Thanks, shaz!
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chockfull
If that question could be phrased equally about the marriage as it could about cult involvement, then I don't think this is a question about the group at all. Every individual deserves a family that works from a basis of mutual respect. If the marriage is unhealthy, then decisions need to be made on that basis. Counseling, different future paths, etc.
That this decision involves both that of deciding about a marriage as well as deciding about a church, you have a person that is going through two incredibly difficult life changing events all at the same time. Of course I'm taking your word about the marriage being in trouble. Being pregnant with a second child is another major thing.
The woman very obviously needs a lot of love and a support structure including friends that care. Like you. People need support systems to make decisions that are best for their own lives. If they don't have that, then they gravitate to their current situation as the only reality they have an option for.
He certainly sounds like he has designs for the kids future in a cult. However, you never can tell where people will end up. That couple is a unit, and has to figure it out for their lives and futures. For her, you can't act out of or plan from a position of fear or negative belief about what the future may bring, you have to make positive plans with a trust in God. She needs a support system outside her husband, and the marriage issue is more important than the cult issue, but that's a battlefield priority.
Too many things stacking up at once. They need to be slowed down and dealt with one at a time.
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waysider
I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all answer. There are general recommendations that might apply but every situation is unique.
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shazdancer
The additional pressure with being in a fundamentalist Christian group is that a woman leaving her marriage is seen as sinning against God. "Husband is head of the wife" and all that. Mentally and emotionally, it is also difficult if all her friends and confidants are in the church. No one to give perspective, no examples of women with successful, happy, and peaceful lives outside of the belief system she is surrounded by.
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geisha779
We have a friend who was in a very similar situation, her hubby found a cult/church, she went along and finally it became too much for her, he cheated, she left. Many of these ultra strict cults will find a way to weave a license for sexual sin into their belief system. She had a church to return to and a built in support system with family, but it is still really hard on her. I read some of her FB posts and my heart breaks.
I don't know how to counsel someone in that situation. Pregnant and vulnerable, or with small children and vulnerable......what do you say? Leave your husband or stay and suck it up and pray?
This is why I hate religiosity. It always seems to end in heartache.
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shazdancer
Once I realized that my marriage was based on his false pretenses (he never intended to love like Christ loved the church, Gal. 5), and once I realized that God didn't call anyone to an abusive marriage, but to one of peace (I Cor. 7:15), I had no religious qualms about getting out of the marriage. It wasn't easy, but it was one of the smartest choices I ever made. The alcoholic ex-husband continued to drink, continued to abuse, and emotionally destroyed the next person he married (according to her daughter). He didn't destroy me or my kids.
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JavaJane
The "false pretences" are exactly right in this case. He was abusive before they were married (isolation from her family, monitoring of every call, email, and Facebook activity, constant accusations of cheating if she didn't answer her phone or left a text message unanswered for more than a minute. When she did get to a family gathering her phone would go off every five minutes with texts from this guy.). She was ready to leave him, but then he got involved with this church and suddenly did a 180. They got married a couple of months later in that church. When I got there and the ceremony started I started having flashbacks to twi. The sermon was about how wives needed to submit to their husbands... and an advertisement for the church. A church member tried to take my fidgety daughter out of the church without my permission (my kid was with her grandpa playing on the floor on an outer aisle of the church - not disturbing anyone. She was three at the time and the service had already lasted over an hour and a half.). At that point I decided to go outside with her and calm myself down - and the ushers tried to tell me I couldn't leave. I did anyway....
Anyways... I figured I would stay out of it unless asked to help. She is in a difficult situation. Now he is back to his controlling of her every move even with family since it has become evident that none of us are interested in converting. And now he has the sanctioning of the church and the Bible to help control her.
It makes me sad.
Thanks for the help, everyone.
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Rocky
All you can say is that you understand and empathize... and that you can't be the one making her decisions for her. Maybe say what you (think you) would do if you were in her position, but you don't want to take responsibility if she takes your advice and regrets it later... do you?
Having been through divorce, I can say confidently that one of the most important things a person going through it needs is emotional support. Friends can do, be and provide that. :)
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Twinky
I think Rocky has it.
You can see what's happening, but you can't make up your friend's mind. You can be ready with a shoulder to cry on. Remember how difficult it was for you, at times. Remember how traumatic it's been for some people whose stories you have read here. Be supportive and maybe you can find some other support for her - support groups or whatever.
It's clear you don't like the husband much. Try not to slag him off too much, but it would be fair to draw parallels between how his behavior differs from that seen in Jesus and his followers (you already have the lowdown on that!).
Pray for them both. You don't know what things have really gone into the husband's make-up that make him who he is, and why this cult he's joined satisfies his needs - what he finds there that satisfies. Be non-judgmental, but firm about boundaries that you will accept in his behavior if he visits you. Or if the wife does leave and seeks safety at your house.
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chockfull
It makes me sad too.
Hearing that story reminds me of friends and stories related to trying to keep marriages intact while leaving TWI. There are many fears related to this people deal with. Definitely the questions about the future. "Will my spouse leave me because I'm leaving the church?" Also making me sad are the memories of leaders in TWI getting in the middle of marriages and splitting them up. Just the look on the faces of certain people - a sadness and a look like they are just lost and don't know what to do. Like they sacrificed their marriage and kids, but are still "standing on the Word". Those leaders and clergy in TWI splitting up marriages and doing that to people deserve a special piece of judgment.
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geisha779
I think being a a supportive and loving friend is the best possible advice....and you are so right.......we can't make decisions for others concerning their marriages. Even if advice is solicited....it makes me uncomfortable to get too involved. If someone is in danger, we can help them to organizations or women's shelters who are equipped to handle these situations.
I coupon and then make care packages for the women's shelter to give to the women who arrive with nothing. Shampoo, toothpaste, formula and diapers are helpful when you come in empty handed.
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Ham
My then spouse and I didn't have much of a choice as to leaving.
if it makes any difference.. We woke up after way days.. I found that I was married to a Redneck (cool!)
she found out she was married to a god forsaken hippie.. (bummer!)
that's the best explanation I have here.. that makes sense anyway.
they really should have dumped us because of potential nuttiness, not because of her, but because of me. Really would have made more sense..
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Ham
If it really makes any difference here.. you leave the cult with anybody.. you are really in uncharted waters.
maybe that is all I should say..
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cara
Hey JJ, you've listed a lot of "red flags." This man sounds dangerous to me.
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Belle
JavaJane, I married with the express wish that we would have at least one, probably two children, and that changed as TWI got more controlling and parents were "exhorted" to have the mother be a stay at home mom. No way to do that on a police officer's salary.... and my ex was not physically but emotionally abusive so, while I'm glad we didn't have kids together, I regret staying in the marriage past the ability to have the fambly I so wanted.
She has to realize on her own - no one can force her - what's best for her and her kiddos. What she needs is support and encouragement that she can do it and that it's best to limit the time the kiddos get with that kind of influence. She needs loved ones to build up her own self esteem and strength because we can't fight battles for others. It's a hard lesson I've learned. They have to want it bad enough to fight for themselves and those who depend on them.
My family was magnificent at doing this for me - I just moved too slowly to still be young enough to realie my own dreams. She can still be a stellar mother and have a great, loving family without the ..... My dad's wife now has kids who are totally scarred and fighting every day because their mom stayed with an alcoholic arse waaaayyyy tooo long to be healthy for kids. I kinda get ....ed at her at times for not being strong enough to protect her babies but we can only do what we're strong enough to and know to do, right? If you want more info or whatever, feel free to contact me.
My heart goes out to you and your friend! Neither is a good place to be. :)
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excathedra
we left together but sadly realized that was what held us together
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