I think, in fairness to TWI, that there is some kind of balance to be worked out here. As a fellowship coordinator, I could see myself getting quite frustrated if people were constantly interrupting with questions or going off into their own conversations while I (or someone else) was trying to teach. While I don't see myself saying "this is not a social hour," I certainly could see myself saying something equivalent, in that specific context. It's a matter of respect, not only for what's being taught, but for the work that the person did in putting that teaching together. If what you are saying, John, is broader than that context, then let me apologize immediately for my misunderstanding. Obviously, I agree that TWI was an oppressive, legalistic regime (I neither know nor care what it is now). I'm just not sure about that specific example as a demonstration of it.
....The first topic they did was about the election statistic that 50% of catholics nationwide voted for Obama. The female DJ is catholic. She thought it was OK because catholics aren't robots. The male DJ says, "but the church is suing the president over mandated birth control and how can a true catholic vote for Obama?" They wanted opinions from callers. St. Louis has a lot of catholics btw.
So I called. I told the screener what I wanted to say, he asked my name and said please hold. I'd done this before on KMOX at all hours. Sometimes you get through; sometimes you don't, but if you do get through you always have to wait at least several minutes. Not even 5 seconds later the male DJ says, "Hello, John, you're on KMOX!" I said hello just to make sure it wasn't someone else named John. Then I commented that, IMO, religion isn't just a spiritual outlet, it's a social outlet as well. If people feel comfortable socially in any religion, then they may not feel like they have to agree 100% with what the religion is trying to promote.
Both DJs said I made a good point. They made more comments and wanted to know if other callers agreed or disagreed. I was working (cleaning windows) and I didn't get to listen much longer, but this is where twi comes in.
How many times during the last few years in twi did I hear, "Hey! This is NOT a social hour!" Everything humans do together is social, isn't it ? Not just religion. If it isn't, then we ARE all robots. In twi we heard constantly that other churches, especially the catholic church, were oppressive and heavy handed. Well, let's see. This kind of situation sounds like it might tempt some clergy to want to stress commitment, but I, personally, am curious. Any catholics here getting any fallout from this? It can't be as bad as twi...can it???
John, perhaps the question here is "what is a 'true believer?'" For one example, in the Catholic religion, most American Catholics have long since adopted the use of birth control other than the rhythm method, but would still call themselves Catholic. Every doctrinal point does not define them, but at the core, they consider themselves Catholic. Rome might wish they were more devout, but basically they are happy to have the flock show up at Mass once in awhile and throw a buck in the plate. The same goes for most other religions. Not every Mormon wife wears religious undergarments, not every Baptist believes every non-Christian goes to hell, and so on.
TWI, on the other hand, became much more insistent that their followers adopt every bit of the dogma, even when the articles of faith seemed to change from month to month during the Craig years. (Original sin, tithing, allegiance to the MOG, and debt come to mind.) Worse, the organizational structure seemed to support ratting out anyone who did not conform, and those who were ratted on were kicked out, sometimes without so much as a shred of evidence.
During the Weirwille years, I knew of plenty of believers who didn't buy every piece of the doctrine. Heck, I didn't, either. But I was willing (for a time) to stay with the organization, because overall, where else was I going to go where anything close to this doctrine was preached? So I and many others stayed, hoping to make changes from within, or to reason with people one at a time.
So the basic difference, socially, between TWI and other religions is one of tolerance. I find it interesting that the "kinder, gentler" TWI kicked in when it was clear that a rigid stance threatened to destroy the organization. Can't have that -- too many people on the payroll.
I find it interesting that the "kinder, gentler" TWI kicked in when it was clear that a rigid stance threatened to destroy the organization. Can't have that -- too many people on the payroll.
The bit of irony in that is Rosalie has continued to shoo people to the exits out of boredom.
I am a recently converted Catholic. And I don't agree with every bit of doctrine. We use birth control and I support gay marriage. The past two or three masses have been pretty political because of pressure from the bishops on the local priests. I almost got up and walked out of the last one I attended....
But here is where it differs from twi - if I did get up and walk out, I could come back next week and no one would harass me, confront me, or shun me.
While taking the adult Catholic classes, the question came up "would someone be refused communion if they were openly pro-choice?". The priest said he would not refuse communion because that person could have repented and there was no way the priest could know that for sure.
In TWI they automatically assumed guilt and evil and even possession if they saw someone do something they didn't approve of. Not so much in my current church.
Just take a look at the current controversy within the Catholic Church regarding the American nuns - the pope says they are radical feminists and need to change their ways. Have the nuns stopped? No. Just look up the nuns on the bus where a group of sisters travelled around the country talking about what Ryan's budget would do to the poor in this country. I'm sure the council of Bishops probably didn't approve of that.
But the women religious of the Catholic Church are still respected.
Can you imagine if a group of WC women did what the nuns did?
I think, in fairness to TWI, that there is some kind of balance to be worked out here. As a fellowship coordinator, I could see myself getting quite frustrated if people were constantly interrupting with questions or going off into their own conversations while I (or someone else) was trying to teach. While I don't see myself saying "this is not a social hour," I certainly could see myself saying something equivalent, in that specific context. It's a matter of respect, not only for what's being taught, but for the work that the person did in putting that teaching together. If what you are saying, John, is broader than that context, then let me apologize immediately for my misunderstanding. Obviously, I agree that TWI was an oppressive, legalistic regime (I neither know nor care what it is now). I'm just not sure about that specific example as a demonstration of it.
By 'social hour', I meant just feeling comfortable socially with the people you actually see all the time. Not interrupting anything. That, to me, is a common courtesy issue. When twi leaders said to me this is not a social hour, it was usually 'provoked' by talking about something other than the word and (gasp) smiling. Oh, geez, if you interrupted a teaching you got flamed.
The troubling part.. to me is, in the *ministry* those supposedly set in charge did not deserve respect even to begin with.. including myself when I was *only* a humble twig coordinator.
When twi leaders said to me this is not a social hour, it was usually 'provoked' by talking about something other than the word and (gasp) smiling. Oh, geez, if you interrupted a teaching you got flamed.
THis really gets my ghord. How many times whatever the function or gathering that got together did the wc joke with one another and distract from teaching or the thing being taught while portraying their facade of "the clergy"?
How many times during the function did "the clergy" go out of the room to smoke, drink, converse while the fold kept in their seats pinned down for hours at a time? />
How the hell do you spell facade anyway?
If I were half the man I used to be I'd take a flame thrower to that place. /> Al Pacino line I just love it.
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Raf
I think, in fairness to TWI, that there is some kind of balance to be worked out here. As a fellowship coordinator, I could see myself getting quite frustrated if people were constantly interrupting with questions or going off into their own conversations while I (or someone else) was trying to teach. While I don't see myself saying "this is not a social hour," I certainly could see myself saying something equivalent, in that specific context. It's a matter of respect, not only for what's being taught, but for the work that the person did in putting that teaching together. If what you are saying, John, is broader than that context, then let me apologize immediately for my misunderstanding. Obviously, I agree that TWI was an oppressive, legalistic regime (I neither know nor care what it is now). I'm just not sure about that specific example as a demonstration of it.
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shazdancer
John, perhaps the question here is "what is a 'true believer?'" For one example, in the Catholic religion, most American Catholics have long since adopted the use of birth control other than the rhythm method, but would still call themselves Catholic. Every doctrinal point does not define them, but at the core, they consider themselves Catholic. Rome might wish they were more devout, but basically they are happy to have the flock show up at Mass once in awhile and throw a buck in the plate. The same goes for most other religions. Not every Mormon wife wears religious undergarments, not every Baptist believes every non-Christian goes to hell, and so on.
TWI, on the other hand, became much more insistent that their followers adopt every bit of the dogma, even when the articles of faith seemed to change from month to month during the Craig years. (Original sin, tithing, allegiance to the MOG, and debt come to mind.) Worse, the organizational structure seemed to support ratting out anyone who did not conform, and those who were ratted on were kicked out, sometimes without so much as a shred of evidence.
During the Weirwille years, I knew of plenty of believers who didn't buy every piece of the doctrine. Heck, I didn't, either. But I was willing (for a time) to stay with the organization, because overall, where else was I going to go where anything close to this doctrine was preached? So I and many others stayed, hoping to make changes from within, or to reason with people one at a time.
So the basic difference, socially, between TWI and other religions is one of tolerance. I find it interesting that the "kinder, gentler" TWI kicked in when it was clear that a rigid stance threatened to destroy the organization. Can't have that -- too many people on the payroll.
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OldSkool
The bit of irony in that is Rosalie has continued to shoo people to the exits out of boredom.
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JavaJane
I am a recently converted Catholic. And I don't agree with every bit of doctrine. We use birth control and I support gay marriage. The past two or three masses have been pretty political because of pressure from the bishops on the local priests. I almost got up and walked out of the last one I attended....
But here is where it differs from twi - if I did get up and walk out, I could come back next week and no one would harass me, confront me, or shun me.
While taking the adult Catholic classes, the question came up "would someone be refused communion if they were openly pro-choice?". The priest said he would not refuse communion because that person could have repented and there was no way the priest could know that for sure.
In TWI they automatically assumed guilt and evil and even possession if they saw someone do something they didn't approve of. Not so much in my current church.
Just take a look at the current controversy within the Catholic Church regarding the American nuns - the pope says they are radical feminists and need to change their ways. Have the nuns stopped? No. Just look up the nuns on the bus where a group of sisters travelled around the country talking about what Ryan's budget would do to the poor in this country. I'm sure the council of Bishops probably didn't approve of that.
But the women religious of the Catholic Church are still respected.
Can you imagine if a group of WC women did what the nuns did?
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johniam
By 'social hour', I meant just feeling comfortable socially with the people you actually see all the time. Not interrupting anything. That, to me, is a common courtesy issue. When twi leaders said to me this is not a social hour, it was usually 'provoked' by talking about something other than the word and (gasp) smiling. Oh, geez, if you interrupted a teaching you got flamed.
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Ham
The troubling part.. to me is, in the *ministry* those supposedly set in charge did not deserve respect even to begin with.. including myself when I was *only* a humble twig coordinator.
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dabobbada
Respect?
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Human without the bean
THis really gets my ghord. How many times whatever the function or gathering that got together did the wc joke with one another and distract from teaching or the thing being taught while portraying their facade of "the clergy"?
How many times during the function did "the clergy" go out of the room to smoke, drink, converse while the fold kept in their seats pinned down for hours at a time?
/>
How the hell do you spell facade anyway?
If I were half the man I used to be I'd take a flame thrower to that place.
/> Al Pacino line I just love it.
Crock of sheet.
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waysider
Like
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Human without the bean
Yeah. Like that. ;)/>
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