VP also used that term back in 1975 during a Sunday night teaching (#746). I happened to be in attendance for that teaching, having driven to HQ with members of my twig. The term wasn't his, it was part of the parlance of the times. But, yeah, to direct the term at people striving to learn to be followers of Jesus Christ was highly inappropriate. Not a whole lotta love there, taking that attitude with God's people, most of whom were barely mature enough to think clearly for ourselves. Yet another piece of the deliberate conflation of TWI teachings and God's own truths, courtesy of VP.
So wait: a rational and honest train of thought is not pursued in part because no one around you is pursuing it, so you accept something you question in your gut that you might otherwise have challenged? Why, one might call it socially reinforced self-delusion. But Wierwille could never get away with that. Not without laying some groundwork first.
So wait: a rational and honest train of thought is not pursued in part because no one around you is pursuing it, so you accept something you question in your gut that you might otherwise have challenged? Why, one might call it socially reinforced self-delusion. But Wierwille could never get away with that. Not without laying some groundwork first.
Naaaaah.
Yeah.....the rational road was detoured by spiritual boulevard.
Now and then I think it pays, as we recall the trees that made up TWI, to take a step back and look at the forest. TWI was a pattern of deception. It wasn't that there was something wrong. It wasn't even that there were a lot of things wrong. The whole enterprise was rotten to the core. Every good thing about it was a trap to draw you into its real reason to exist: to control you and leave you utterly dependent on them for as many facets of your life as possible.
I'm lucky. I got out fast. For those of you who stayed a long time: I can't fathom the damage that was done. I'm impressed that you got out in one piece!
It's like I said when the Actual Errors thread came to a merciful end: trying to mine our TWI experience to figure out what was good in it is like looking at the cheese in a mousetrap as a potential source of calcium. I'm not denying it's cheese. I'm not denying it has calcium. But I'm also not losing sight of who laid it out there and why.
I'm lucky. I got out fast. For those of you who stayed a long time: I can't fathom the damage that was done. I'm impressed that you got out in one piece!
I'm "lucky" too.......I kept thinking and processing information EVEN THOUGH I STAYED IN TOO LONG.
With regards to *damage that was done*......everyone has their story. But hey, such is life. In business, politics, religion,
military, relationships, etc.....who hasn't ventured down a path that held regrets? Does anyone go thru life unscathed?
And, really.......the longer I live and the more I read, oppressive governments and groups savage the liberties of others.
Just recently, the cnn story of how the Pakistani Taliban are throwing acid in the faces of girls who desire education!
Threats and fear to keep young women from advancing their lives, their educational paths, their careers, their dreams!!
So, relatively speaking........to me, twi was a detour in my life. It altered my life. But no extensive damage.
What continues to amaze me is how "believers" and splinter groups still fall for this pecking order.
I'm "lucky" too.......I kept thinking and processing information EVEN THOUGH I STAYED IN TOO LONG.
With regards to *damage that was done*......everyone has their story. But hey, such is life. In business, politics, religion,
military, relationships, etc.....who hasn't ventured down a path that held regrets? Does anyone go thru life unscathed?
And, really.......the longer I live and the more I read, oppressive governments and groups savage the liberties of others.
Just recently, the cnn story of how the Pakistani Taliban are throwing acid in the faces of girls who desire education!
Threats and fear to keep young women from advancing their lives, their educational paths, their careers, their dreams!!
So, relatively speaking........to me, twi was a detour in my life. It altered my life. But no extensive damage.
What continues to amaze me is how "believers" and splinter groups still fall for this pecking order.
But many churches have the same gig.
.
I think that conscious self-awareness and awareness of the subculture issues in TWI, for so long, is what gives/gave you an important story to tell (book to write).
I also suspect that at times, it may be difficult to compartmentalize your story such that you keep from blurring the lines between one's (yours in particular) spiritual journey/path and political systems.
At some point, you may find more clarity regarding how those areas of life and society differ and how they overlap. Perhaps... for what it's worth (probably not more than two cents).
I think that conscious self-awareness and awareness of the subculture issues in TWI, for so long, is what gives/gave you an important story to tell (book to write).
I also suspect that at times, it may be difficult to compartmentalize your story such that you keep from blurring the lines between one's (yours in particular) spiritual journey/path and political systems.
What some might characterize as "blurring the lines".......I see as CONNECTING THE DOTS.
The scriptures give us a vast array of wrestling against principalities, against powers, against rulers of darkness.
Yes, twi was a subculture of oppressiveness and isolation......but these structures are found far and wide.
During twi's apex, in 1984........nearly 190 clergy were assigned to hq. WHY?
Is the concentration of authority and power infinitely essential for wrestling the liberties away from the individual?
If wierwille was truly invested in "word over the world"......why the conglomeration of clergy at hq under wierwille's watch?
Was twi a microcosm of "principalities, powers and rulers of darkness" that is seen the world over?
The financial powers? The business world? The Hollywood insiders? The fashion world? The media monopolies?
And, no.......I realize that such broadstrokes could never be addressed in a book without seeming to be "all over the place"
but its also clear that Jesus warned to beware of the leaven of Pharisees and Herod. The bandwidth of beware is NOT
compartmentalized to a Nazarene subculture.
Can one's story focus on one's life experiences AND carry the message of an OVER-riding element than encompasses all?
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts ABSOLUTELY. If a subculture of authoritarian power leads to diminished individual liberty,
what happens if the macrocosm of society falls into diminished and suppressed liberties?
What some might characterize as "blurring the lines".......I see as CONNECTING THE DOTS.
The scriptures give us a vast array of wrestling against principalities, against powers, against rulers of darkness.
Yes, twi was a subculture of oppressiveness and isolation......but these structures are found far and wide.
During twi's apex, in 1984........nearly 190 clergy were assigned to hq. WHY?
Is the concentration of authority and power infinitely essential for wrestling the liberties away from the individual?
If wierwille was truly invested in "word over the world"......why the conglomeration of clergy at hq under wierwille's watch?
Was twi a microcosm of "principalities, powers and rulers of darkness" that is seen the world over?
The financial powers? The business world? The Hollywood insiders? The fashion world? The media monopolies?
And, no.......I realize that such broadstrokes could never be addressed in a book without seeming to be "all over the place"
but its also clear that Jesus warned to beware of the leaven of Pharisees and Herod. The bandwidth of beware is NOT
compartmentalized to a Nazarene subculture.
Can one's story focus on one's life experiences AND carry the message of an OVER-riding element than encompasses all?
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts ABSOLUTELY. If a subculture of authoritarian power leads to diminished individual liberty,
what happens if the macrocosm of society falls into diminished and suppressed liberties?
Sky, if you tell the story of the microcosm well, people will understand that it stands for the macrocosm. No need to shove a moral down people's throats. :)
Why were 190 clergy assigned to HQ? IMHO, because they should have been the most loyal to Wierwille, so he was hoping to have better control over his staff -- he wanted yes-men, not people with actual needs. (Which is why he shut down the Senior Corps.) If he'd played it right, he would have had minions to care for him and do his bidding in his old age even if he wasn't the board president anymore. Remember, narcissists tend to be lazy.
What he didn't count on was that clergy actually thought of themselves as leaders, able to make decisions and get "revelation" on their own, from Craig on down. He also didn't realize that the top clergy didn't like him much. No surprise -- he was demanding, insulting, capricious, a drunk, and an adulterer. No wonder he went off to Gartmore when it became apparent that he couldn't control the mess at home, a mess of his own making.
What some might characterize as "blurring the lines".......I see as CONNECTING THE DOTS.
The scriptures give us a vast array of wrestling against principalities, against powers, against rulers of darkness.
Yes, twi was a subculture of oppressiveness and isolation......but these structures are found far and wide.
During twi's apex, in 1984........nearly 190 clergy were assigned to hq. WHY?
Is the concentration of authority and power infinitely essential for wrestling the liberties away from the individual?
If wierwille was truly invested in "word over the world"......why the conglomeration of clergy at hq under wierwille's watch?
Was twi a microcosm of "principalities, powers and rulers of darkness" that is seen the world over?
The financial powers? The business world? The Hollywood insiders? The fashion world? The media monopolies?
And, no.......I realize that such broadstrokes could never be addressed in a book without seeming to be "all over the place"
but its also clear that Jesus warned to beware of the leaven of Pharisees and Herod. The bandwidth of beware is NOT
compartmentalized to a Nazarene subculture.
Can one's story focus on one's life experiences AND carry the message of an OVER-riding element than encompasses all?
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts ABSOLUTELY. If a subculture of authoritarian power leads to diminished individual liberty,
what happens if the macrocosm of society falls into diminished and suppressed liberties?
My thought on that would be such that if YOU have been involved in some political/public service situation, at any level, then it's YOUR story and you have every right to tell it in your book.
If it's you pontificating on what you think other people are doing wrong, but you haven't been involved in any aspect of it, then how is it YOUR story?
That's what I mean by compartmentalizing.
Of course, you have a right to your own opinions on politics, government and public policy. And if you find yourself an audience who values your insight on those subjects, THEN it's
plenty reasonable to use your experiences in TWI to illustrate whatever point you try to make.
But it's completely different to project your displeasure with an authoritarian religious subculture on people and processes you only read about in the news.
But it's completely different to project your displeasure with an authoritarian religious subculture on people and processes you only read about in the news.
My story is central to my 24-year involvement with twi. Wierwille's central authority and projection of mogship
came crashing down with a mighty THUD. The heavy-handedness squelched the liberties of the individual.
Aside from my twi-tenure, my life and business relations are interconnected with hundreds. My brother who still farms
is challenged by the overbearing regulations and paperwork of six to eight different governmental agencies. Some of
these regulations are senseless and disgruntled farmers are attending meetings to stifle the onslaught of regulations.
The farmers are going bankrupt and corporate farming is the new norm.
Twi was the microcosm laboratory where I vividly experienced the dysfunction of central-hq authority.
Life and business is the macrocosm wherein the encroachment of top-down authority that I NOW SEE.
My story is central to my 24-year involvement with twi. Wierwille's central authority and projection of mogship
came crashing down with a mighty THUD. The heavy-handedness squelched the liberties of the individual.
Aside from my twi-tenure, my life and business relations are interconnected with hundreds. My brother who still farms
is challenged by the overbearing regulations and paperwork of six to eight different governmental agencies. Some of
these regulations are senseless and disgruntled farmers are attending meetings to stifle the onslaught of regulations.
The farmers are going bankrupt and corporate farming is the new norm.
Twi was the microcosm laboratory where I vividly experienced the dysfunction of central-hq authority.
Life and business is the macrocosm wherein the encroachment of top-down authority that I NOW SEE.
Life and living is stifled when that happens.
Dude, you are STILL projecting your response, feelings and analysis of your experience in twi onto a system that you only know because you have read or heard what others say about it.
Microcosm, smicrocosm... your editorial writing about politics is NOT your story until or unless you are involved in it.
And frankly, your interpretation of the role of the federal government is limited in scope, even if you factor in family experience in farming.
The fact of the matter is that the Obama administration is not at all responsible for the take over of American government by corporate interests.
That is tied into an event and manifesto that was published in 1971 and has been used as a blueprint for encroaching plutocracy ever since.
Now, I'd hate to see this thread get shut down because the discussion got too much into politics.
My point is exclusively to point out what aspect of the things you've been posting are YOUR story and what is something else.
Dude, you are STILL projecting your response, feelings and analysis of your experience in twi onto a system that you only know because you have read or heard what others say about it.
......"you have READ or HEARD".....
WOW.....Rocky. Really?
I grew up on a farm......my brother STILL farms.....I've helped my brother with farming.....and explain
heavy-handed regulations in farming JUST LIKE I SAW IN TWI......and you say I'm projecting what I've
READ or HEARD?
Gee, Rocky.....seems like you follow me around on every thread I start and attack me. <_<
Whatever. write what you want to write. The trick will be taking it to market..
Nah. The trick is actually writing it. Getting it to market is the easy part these days since most anyone with a few dollars to invest can self publish.
If I can put on the modhat without switching ID's:
Whether Rocky has a valid point or not is for skyrider to consider. Whether that point is related to this thread or not is a separate issue. So without judging the content of Rocky's post for its validity, without judging whether or not it's good advice that skyrider should heed, I think a strong case can be made that it's off-topic for this thread.
No warnings, no reprimands. Just a gentle nudge back on topic, please.
In this thread.......who is talking about editors, literary agents, or writing a book?
Could it be that you are *projecting* that every post of mine needs candid feedback to fine-tune my story
and writing skills for a marketable book? Gee, I'm starting to feel kinda queezy posting on threads with
someone following me around and micromanaging my every word.
If I can put on the modhat without switching ID's:
Whether Rocky has a valid point or not is for skyrider to consider. Whether that point is related to this thread or not is a separate issue. So without judging the content of Rocky's post for its validity, without judging whether or not it's good advice that skyrider should heed, I think a strong case can be made that it's off-topic for this thread.
No warnings, no reprimands. Just a gentle nudge back on topic, please.
In 1978, wierwille's tone of ownership of "his" corps came in the derisive term COP OUTS.
Wierwille, being an older man, preyed on young minds. He controlled the frame of the conversation. You were either "my kids" or a "cop out". And people were so whipped up by their Christian excitement and desire to serve that those two terms defined young people's existence.
A wolf in sheep's clothing.
Quite obviously to us now, selecting a different Christian church to attend other than Wierwille's should not produce traumatic psychological trauma, or shunning, or hate speech from TWI leadership.
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johniam
You make a good point: It is much easier to pursue a certain train of thought if even ONE of your peers might give you the space.
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OperaBuff
VP also used that term back in 1975 during a Sunday night teaching (#746). I happened to be in attendance for that teaching, having driven to HQ with members of my twig. The term wasn't his, it was part of the parlance of the times. But, yeah, to direct the term at people striving to learn to be followers of Jesus Christ was highly inappropriate. Not a whole lotta love there, taking that attitude with God's people, most of whom were barely mature enough to think clearly for ourselves. Yet another piece of the deliberate conflation of TWI teachings and God's own truths, courtesy of VP.
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Raf
So wait: a rational and honest train of thought is not pursued in part because no one around you is pursuing it, so you accept something you question in your gut that you might otherwise have challenged? Why, one might call it socially reinforced self-delusion. But Wierwille could never get away with that. Not without laying some groundwork first.
Naaaaah.
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skyrider
Yeah.....the rational road was detoured by spiritual boulevard.
:B)
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Raf
Now and then I think it pays, as we recall the trees that made up TWI, to take a step back and look at the forest. TWI was a pattern of deception. It wasn't that there was something wrong. It wasn't even that there were a lot of things wrong. The whole enterprise was rotten to the core. Every good thing about it was a trap to draw you into its real reason to exist: to control you and leave you utterly dependent on them for as many facets of your life as possible.
I'm lucky. I got out fast. For those of you who stayed a long time: I can't fathom the damage that was done. I'm impressed that you got out in one piece!
It's like I said when the Actual Errors thread came to a merciful end: trying to mine our TWI experience to figure out what was good in it is like looking at the cheese in a mousetrap as a potential source of calcium. I'm not denying it's cheese. I'm not denying it has calcium. But I'm also not losing sight of who laid it out there and why.
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skyrider
I'm "lucky" too.......I kept thinking and processing information EVEN THOUGH I STAYED IN TOO LONG.
With regards to *damage that was done*......everyone has their story. But hey, such is life. In business, politics, religion,
military, relationships, etc.....who hasn't ventured down a path that held regrets? Does anyone go thru life unscathed?
And, really.......the longer I live and the more I read, oppressive governments and groups savage the liberties of others.
Just recently, the cnn story of how the Pakistani Taliban are throwing acid in the faces of girls who desire education!
Threats and fear to keep young women from advancing their lives, their educational paths, their careers, their dreams!!
So, relatively speaking........to me, twi was a detour in my life. It altered my life. But no extensive damage.
What continues to amaze me is how "believers" and splinter groups still fall for this pecking order.
But many churches have the same gig.
.
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outandabout
On one hand, if you left you were a "cop out." But I also heard the saying that the "door swings both ways."
So I guess you were totally free to leave if you wanted but if you did you were a cop-out.
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Rocky
I think that conscious self-awareness and awareness of the subculture issues in TWI, for so long, is what gives/gave you an important story to tell (book to write).
I also suspect that at times, it may be difficult to compartmentalize your story such that you keep from blurring the lines between one's (yours in particular) spiritual journey/path and political systems.
At some point, you may find more clarity regarding how those areas of life and society differ and how they overlap. Perhaps... for what it's worth (probably not more than two cents).
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skyrider
What some might characterize as "blurring the lines".......I see as CONNECTING THE DOTS.
The scriptures give us a vast array of wrestling against principalities, against powers, against rulers of darkness.
Yes, twi was a subculture of oppressiveness and isolation......but these structures are found far and wide.
During twi's apex, in 1984........nearly 190 clergy were assigned to hq. WHY?
Is the concentration of authority and power infinitely essential for wrestling the liberties away from the individual?
If wierwille was truly invested in "word over the world"......why the conglomeration of clergy at hq under wierwille's watch?
Was twi a microcosm of "principalities, powers and rulers of darkness" that is seen the world over?
The financial powers? The business world? The Hollywood insiders? The fashion world? The media monopolies?
And, no.......I realize that such broadstrokes could never be addressed in a book without seeming to be "all over the place"
but its also clear that Jesus warned to beware of the leaven of Pharisees and Herod. The bandwidth of beware is NOT
compartmentalized to a Nazarene subculture.
Can one's story focus on one's life experiences AND carry the message of an OVER-riding element than encompasses all?
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts ABSOLUTELY. If a subculture of authoritarian power leads to diminished individual liberty,
what happens if the macrocosm of society falls into diminished and suppressed liberties?
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shazdancer
Sky, if you tell the story of the microcosm well, people will understand that it stands for the macrocosm. No need to shove a moral down people's throats. :)
Why were 190 clergy assigned to HQ? IMHO, because they should have been the most loyal to Wierwille, so he was hoping to have better control over his staff -- he wanted yes-men, not people with actual needs. (Which is why he shut down the Senior Corps.) If he'd played it right, he would have had minions to care for him and do his bidding in his old age even if he wasn't the board president anymore. Remember, narcissists tend to be lazy.
What he didn't count on was that clergy actually thought of themselves as leaders, able to make decisions and get "revelation" on their own, from Craig on down. He also didn't realize that the top clergy didn't like him much. No surprise -- he was demanding, insulting, capricious, a drunk, and an adulterer. No wonder he went off to Gartmore when it became apparent that he couldn't control the mess at home, a mess of his own making.
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Rocky
My thought on that would be such that if YOU have been involved in some political/public service situation, at any level, then it's YOUR story and you have every right to tell it in your book.
If it's you pontificating on what you think other people are doing wrong, but you haven't been involved in any aspect of it, then how is it YOUR story?
That's what I mean by compartmentalizing.
Of course, you have a right to your own opinions on politics, government and public policy. And if you find yourself an audience who values your insight on those subjects, THEN it's
plenty reasonable to use your experiences in TWI to illustrate whatever point you try to make.
But it's completely different to project your displeasure with an authoritarian religious subculture on people and processes you only read about in the news.
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skyrider
My story is central to my 24-year involvement with twi. Wierwille's central authority and projection of mogship
came crashing down with a mighty THUD. The heavy-handedness squelched the liberties of the individual.
Aside from my twi-tenure, my life and business relations are interconnected with hundreds. My brother who still farms
is challenged by the overbearing regulations and paperwork of six to eight different governmental agencies. Some of
these regulations are senseless and disgruntled farmers are attending meetings to stifle the onslaught of regulations.
The farmers are going bankrupt and corporate farming is the new norm.
Twi was the microcosm laboratory where I vividly experienced the dysfunction of central-hq authority.
Life and business is the macrocosm wherein the encroachment of top-down authority that I NOW SEE.
Life and living is stifled when that happens.
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Rocky
Dude, you are STILL projecting your response, feelings and analysis of your experience in twi onto a system that you only know because you have read or heard what others say about it.
Microcosm, smicrocosm... your editorial writing about politics is NOT your story until or unless you are involved in it.
And frankly, your interpretation of the role of the federal government is limited in scope, even if you factor in family experience in farming.
The fact of the matter is that the Obama administration is not at all responsible for the take over of American government by corporate interests.
That is tied into an event and manifesto that was published in 1971 and has been used as a blueprint for encroaching plutocracy ever since.
Now, I'd hate to see this thread get shut down because the discussion got too much into politics.
My point is exclusively to point out what aspect of the things you've been posting are YOUR story and what is something else.
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OldSkool
Egads.
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skyrider
......"you have READ or HEARD".....
WOW.....Rocky. Really?
I grew up on a farm......my brother STILL farms.....I've helped my brother with farming.....and explain
heavy-handed regulations in farming JUST LIKE I SAW IN TWI......and you say I'm projecting what I've
READ or HEARD?
Gee, Rocky.....seems like you follow me around on every thread I start and attack me. <_<
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WordWolf
Now, now, GENTLEMEN,
please police yourselves and go take a brisk walk or something.
You're both adults.
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skyrider
Yeah......this thread took a detour when Raf commented that "he couldn't fathom the damage done" by staying so long
in twi and I countered by expounding on other areas and groups who suppress liberties.
If the scriptures are true.......the bigger picture is that principalities, powers and rulers of darkness are in
the POWER STRUCTURES in this world and inflict suppression and bondage whenever possible.
Guess I didn't realize that the "projection police" are roaming thru GSC these days.
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Rocky
Whatever. write what you want to write. The trick will be taking it to market..
Find a literary agent, a publishing house and an editor.
You don't have to sell me, you have to sell them.
But candid feedback from a good editor can often be hard to swallow.
See what comes together and makes sense.
When I get into working on my book, not about TWI, btw, I'm hoping to get
Vickie F. A. who has used the handle NotinKansasanymore here on facebook as a preliminary editor.
And for those of you who have not yet voted, VOTE today! :)
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OldSkool
Nah. The trick is actually writing it. Getting it to market is the easy part these days since most anyone with a few dollars to invest can self publish.
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skyrider
In this thread.......who is talking about editors, literary agents, or writing a book?
Could it be that you are *projecting* that every post of mine needs candid feedback to fine-tune my story
and writing skills for a marketable book? Gee, I'm starting to feel kinda queezy posting on threads with
someone following me around and micromanaging my every word.
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Raf
If I can put on the modhat without switching ID's:
Whether Rocky has a valid point or not is for skyrider to consider. Whether that point is related to this thread or not is a separate issue. So without judging the content of Rocky's post for its validity, without judging whether or not it's good advice that skyrider should heed, I think a strong case can be made that it's off-topic for this thread.
No warnings, no reprimands. Just a gentle nudge back on topic, please.
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Rocky
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chockfull
Wierwille, being an older man, preyed on young minds. He controlled the frame of the conversation. You were either "my kids" or a "cop out". And people were so whipped up by their Christian excitement and desire to serve that those two terms defined young people's existence.
A wolf in sheep's clothing.
Quite obviously to us now, selecting a different Christian church to attend other than Wierwille's should not produce traumatic psychological trauma, or shunning, or hate speech from TWI leadership.
All of those things display non-Christian fruit.
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Ham
wierwille, being, or becoming an older man pretty much ran off many of the "elders" of his early church, or did he not?
My impression is that he did..
giving him unbridled "ownership" of the flock.. so to speak.
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