I wondered if any of you here have explored these 12 steps in a spiritual (Godly) way; or if any of you have experienced applying them as part of a program for some addition you've had?
My uncle has been in AA for around 30 years. It saved his life. He has lived a very productive life since he sobered up and has helped many people be sponsoring them in AA. I have nothing but praise for AA. Craig is an idiot.
I am in a 12 step program and have been for almost 18 years. I totally believe God brought me to the program, although at first, I was like, ok I must be here to help all these poor people! LOL Not too much ego huh?
I found I was there for me because I was so screwed up.
If you take a good long look at those steps you will see how they are principles that are biblical based. And I will tell you these people are some (not all) of the most honest people I have ever met. Working the steps is all about application and not doctrine. And it's not an easy program, but it's simple. It has changed my life for the better.
For me, I found I had so much doctrine and was so confused about everything, I didn't even know what to think. I couldn't get to a solution to my problems. Going through the steps, changed me. It made me look at me instead of everyone else. It made me get honest about my life. It set me on the right course for my life. And it freed me from resentment, from putting the blame on people, being unforgiving. Eventually, it taught me how to maintain a life that is free from all those things.
The past can freeze a person and cause them to stay in their prison of regret, depression, anger, and unforgiving state etc. It can cause you to just keep going around the same circle over and over again. I was at the point when I entered the program that I didn't think that even GOD could put me back together again, which I never wanted to admit to anyone. Thankfully, I was wrong. He has done more than put me back together again....he has gone way past my expectations.
I will tell you that the 12 step program is a great program. I see miracles of lives being changed from the pit to healthy productive lives every day. Personally, I think everyone could benefit from working through the 12 steps. Who doesn't have a past that they aren't dragging around with them? Or Who doesn't have resentment, and anger, hurt and pain about their lives. Everyone does.
How do I live today? I live those steps. I've learned how to forgive, let go and let God. I've learned how to get an accurate perception of things that go on in my life, I've learned how to be honest about me and how I live.
God has worked amazingly in my life through this program, just by application of biblical principles. How can that be wrong?
My experience with 12 steps is completely related to interacting with Christians in my fellowships over the years that were alcoholics. Overall, they are much needed and very helpful. I did notice a difference in what you might call "degree of alcoholism". I mean there were some people that I saw drank a lot due to psychological trauma. (Maybe there's a lot on this forum that have been in that category). Those types of people tended to get better as they healed. Then there was the real disease - those people would never get better and need to never touch alcohol again in their lives as one beer or glass of wine would start an out of control spiral ending up in disaster.
The category of people with the real disease were the ones I thought needed to stay in AA 12 steps ongoing throughout their lives. For the others, I saw they may have gotten some benefit out of the program for a time, but it wasn't beneficial to stay in a 12 step program ongoing throughout their lives.
Then there was the real disease - those people would never get better and need to never touch alcohol again in their lives as one beer or glass of wine would start an out of control spiral ending up in disaster.
I don't know that LCM learned that attitude from VPW. At least during the short time I was in He recommend in a teaching once that leaders send alcoholics to AA rather than try to help them themselves. He may have very well changed his attitude later. Seems like He did did that on a lot of things.
I don't know that LCM learned that attitude from VPW. At least during the short time I was in He recommend in a teaching once that leaders send alcoholics to AA rather than try to help them themselves. He may have very well changed his attitude later. Seems like He did did that on a lot of things.
I explicitly remember him ranting on more than one occasion that AA was just replacing one set of devil spirits with another. What you are saying leads me to speculate a little on the subtle changes that came along with him.
1 - I know for a fact that Rosalie and Donna used his affairs against him and tried to keep him in check. They also pushed policy through on his watch. The no debt policy is a prime example. Perhaps, for legal liability's sake, they tried to tone his rantings down somewhat?
2 - It could be that he made statements such as this to keep people focused on finding the devout. LCM really wanted folks to find those who had their life together instead of people who needed help. This was stressed to us during my first way disciple tenure in 1998. We were after the devout - those searching for God but were already disciplined to live a godly life and needed further instruction. One example he loved to use was Priscilla and Aquilla when Paul took them further along than what they knew.
2 - It could be that he made statements such as this to keep people focused on finding the devout. LCM really wanted folks to find those who had their life together instead of people who needed help. This was stressed to us during my first way disciple tenure in 1998. We were after the devout - those searching for God but were already disciplined to live a godly life and needed further instruction. One example he loved to use was Priscilla and Aquilla when Paul took them further along than what they knew.
This so transparently exposes TWI as a leech of an organization.
First, they don't want to reach people in genuine need or with obvious needs - that would actually require doing some work, getting the hands dirty, helping people who are down and out improve and put their lives back together. You know - real beneficial work that legitimate non-profit corporations are doing all the time.
Second, they are after the devout. Why? No problems, steady work, more money. Where does the money go? To help the devout? No. It goes back to HQ's little fiefdom structure. And they keep a tight lid on the money. 75/25 was the budget breakdown I was familiar with. When the ABS in a state went below what would support having a Limb coord. be salaried, they have always asked them to work secularly, and keep the same workload.
Third, they have zero infrastructure in communities. People meet in homes, usually in violation of local housing ordinances. There was even specific language that would be communicated from the Trunk office to use when neighbors complained about parking or gathering problems. We would always be encouraged to use free rooms for community meetings - in Branches - like libraries, community centers, fire stations, etc. So that we wouldn't have to pay to have larger meetings. Then after that care was taken to keep costs down on Limb level meetings, and approval would be denied for anything nice.
If you look at this from a perspective of the real underlying reason is TWI wants to leech off society, collect money for doing as little as possible, and preserve their little fiefdoms.
Thanks, all, and Newlife especially, for your really thoughtful post.
I think the real objection of LCM was to the phrase in steps 3 and 11: God as we understood Him. Our job is to teach fully and acc'rately who God is, doncha know! And that alone would help people. And step 4 requires thinking and introspection - not "action."
Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
TWI isn't good at giving real practical help to those who need it. Individuals are, yes, but the organization as a whole, no. And having to deal with people with complex problems (because addiction doesn't come alone) takes time - time that could be spent "moving the word."
In addition, TWI isn't giving to allowing people time for introspective soul-searching. Quiet time meditating on the Word. It seems to me that to make "a searching and fearless moral inventory of" oneself can take a very long time. Yet not to do that, at least at some level, means the "old man nature" is simply dormant, not dead, in those areas where one doesn't allow the fullness of the new birth to take effect.
2 Cor 10:5,6 exhort us:
For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds); Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.
How can you bring "every thought" into captivity, cast down every imagination etc, if you don't root out where such thoughts and imaginations come from? If you only keep stamping on the "thought" rather than considering why you keep getting such thoughts and then rooting that out, you're not really dealing with the problem. You're simply knocking on the door of the stronghold, not working out a strategy to destroy the stronghold itself.
One of my best friends is in AA, and it saved his life. He was totally out of control with drinking, then one day he hit bottom, hard. Took himself to an AA meeting, and has been doing great for many years now. He's always the first one at the morning meetings, so he can make the coffee for everyone else!
Why would Craig object to AA when it has obviously helped thousands if not millions of people escape an addiction? Maybe it's got something to do with that river in Egypt...
Why would Craig object to AA when it has obviously helped thousands if not millions of people escape an addiction?
Well, it's been a few years, but here goes. Craig said at times that people became addicted to AA and it was replacing one addiction with another, one set of spirits with another. Because alcoholism was devil spirit caused the only to get rid of it was through the Word of God. And of course he meant as taught by him and TWI. I know he said this in part because alcoholics need to keep attending meetings for support to battle their disease, and they eventually go on to sponsor others.
Craig also strongly objected to the whole higher power concept because it didn't acknowledge Jesus Christ as the way to the Father.
Never mind that alcoholics hitting rock bottom can be in life or death situations. Never mind that AA leaves room for a person to come to God w/o beating them over the head with theology. Never mind that AA tolerates a person's religious beliefs for what they are and loves them anyway. Never mind all of that.
To top it off, my uncle became Christian through the higher power concept. Except, when he first sobered up, he was in such a sad state of mind that the only way to reach him was to let him discover God through the higher power concept.
Have I mentioned lately that Craig was a blathering idiot?
Craig didn't like gay people, but he married one. Craig didn't like AA, but he used to suck on mints to hide the smell of booze on his breath. I ain't no doctor, but by golly I'm seeing a trend there. (Private memo to Craig: Closets are for clothes.)
Well, it's been a few years, but here goes. Craig said at times that people became addicted to AA and it was replacing one addiction with another, one set of spirits with another. Because alcoholism was devil spirit caused the only to get rid of it was through the Word of God. And of course he meant as taught by him and TWI. I know he said this in part because alcoholics need to keep attending meetings for support to battle their disease, and they eventually go on to sponsor others.
Craig also strongly objected to the whole higher power concept because it didn't acknowledge Jesus Christ as the way to the Father.
Is how I remember it, too.
The 12-step program is a "spiritual counterfeit." (Hmph!!)
Good on your uncle, OS, for finally coming to his senses.
OperaBuff, no Craig didn't have a drink problem. He had a food problem - overate and got very fat in the "fog years" - and then slimmed down pretty well.
Ah, ok, my bad. I thought I remembered reading in here somewhere that he became a mint sucker. Sorry to cast aspersions on such a nice guy..
Sorry too for going off topic, Twinky. AA is a worthy organization, fully deserving of our undivided attention. Truly, if you had seen my friend before and after AA and its 12 step program, you'd've been amazed by the positive changes in him. His job requires him to travel frequently, and he always seeks out a local AA meeting wherever he goes. AA gave us our friend back.
Well, it's been a few years, but here goes. Craig said at times that people became addicted to AA and it was replacing one addiction with another, one set of spirits with another. Because alcoholism was devil spirit caused the only to get rid of it was through the Word of God. And of course he meant as taught by him and TWI. I know he said this in part because alcoholics need to keep attending meetings for support to battle their disease, and they eventually go on to sponsor others.
Yeah, well it didn't work. I've encountered a few with the real disease that probably would have been better off at an AA meeting than a fellowship. Just by common sense, the folks at AA are much better equipped to handle the disease than your average fellowship coord. in TWI (or even you non-average - Corps / clergy / whatever). TWI provides NO training AT ANY LEVEL on dealing with the disease of alchoholism.
Craigers was a boozer too?
Hypocritically, he was largely governed by his Baptist upbringing there. VP would do moonshine at a night owl. Craig would never.
He should have stuck with his Baptist upbringing on sex.
AA was based on a Christian organization, the Oxford Group. The founders of AA backed off of the references to God, and moved to referring to a "higher power," in an attempt to not make God a stumbling block to sobriety. So yes, they left the door open for someone to "get the program," which for many AAers meant coming to God through Christ. (To some, the higher power meant believing in the strength of the AA group or some other concept.)
But what I find sad is that TWI has a history, not of helping people with a drinking problem to overcome it, but of kicking them to the curb and telling everyone else that alcoholics are possessed and should believe bigger. This very thing happened to my first husband, who drank, and me with him, who did not. So much for the loving care that is the true essence of Christianity.
... TWI provides NO training AT ANY LEVEL on dealing with the disease of alchoholism.
... Or any other illness - physical or mental.
... Or any other kind of problem, relationship, work, personal ... money...
It was only "Believe what the Word says!" without the practical help to take the necessary action.
I do have an acquaintance, a Christian man, who was alcoholic, into drugs too I think; he loves going to AA, speaks frequently at various meetings (not just at AA meetings) to help others overcome their addiction - in fact, seems to have made it his personal ministry. He knows what God has rescued him from and loves sharing his story with others. I think he sees AA as God's rescue plan for him.
I feel encouraged by replies that indicate the success of this program. Another of those TWI stumbling blocks kicked to the kerb, I think.
My experience with 12 steps is completely related to interacting with Christians in my fellowships over the years that were alcoholics. Overall, they are much needed and very helpful. I did notice a difference in what you might call "degree of alcoholism". I mean there were some people that I saw drank a lot due to psychological trauma. (Maybe there's a lot on this forum that have been in that category). Those types of people tended to get better as they healed. Then there was the real disease - those people would never get better and need to never touch alcohol again in their lives as one beer or glass of wine would start an out of control spiral ending up in disaster.
The category of people with the real disease were the ones I thought needed to stay in AA 12 steps ongoing throughout their lives. For the others, I saw they may have gotten some benefit out of the program for a time, but it wasn't beneficial to stay in a 12 step program ongoing throughout their lives.
My experience or .02.
This reminds me of something VP used to say. Something to the effect of, 2 guys get dead drunk and sleep it off. One gets up the next day, has a drink and he's OK. The other gets up, has a drink, and can't stop drinking until he's dead drunk again. The second guy was the alcoholic, possessed.
I once knew a believer who was involved with Amway. He said good things about them plus one major criticism: that, as AA has been described on this thread, Amway leads people to Christianity and after they convert you they make you feel like you owe your Christianity to Amway. But if it helps, it helps.
This reminds me of something VP used to say. Something to the effect of, 2 guys get dead drunk and sleep it off. One gets up the next day, has a drink and he's OK. The other gets up, has a drink, and can't stop drinking until he's dead drunk again. The second guy was the alcoholic, possessed.
VP was an idiot. He also said cancer was devil spirit possession and then died of cancer. Alcoholism has no more to do with possession than cancer does.
... Amway leads people to Christianity and after they convert you they make you feel like you owe your Christianity to Amway. But if it helps, it helps.
That sounds like another way of saying, "The end justifies the means.".
This reminds me of something VP used to say. Something to the effect of, 2 guys get dead drunk and sleep it off. One gets up the next day, has a drink and he's OK. The other gets up, has a drink, and can't stop drinking until he's dead drunk again. The second guy was the alcoholic, possessed.
And just to further illustrate Wierwille's and TWI's ignorance on the subject. Research has identified five types of alcoholics.
AA has known for sometime there are various and sundry types of alcoholics, from binge drinkers to chronic drinkers. Once again, Wierwille shows his vast ignorance speaking on a subject he pretends to know something about and then sums it up as....drum roll please...."their possessed." As as smart as Wierwille could have been had he really applied himself, he was little more than a mental midget in most cases.
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chockfull
In many ways AA has done a work that TWI was and is too lazy to ever do anything close to. They have taken a specific category of people with special needs and dedicated resources to helping them. T
damurf
I had a pretty bad drinking problem when I was with TWI, I tried several things to get a handle on it but to no avail. I did have a Limb coordinator even suggest that I go to AA. After leaving TWI I s
OldSkool
My uncle has been in AA for around 30 years. It saved his life. He has lived a very productive life since he sobered up and has helped many people be sponsoring them in AA. I have nothing but praise f
OldSkool
My uncle has been in AA for around 30 years. It saved his life. He has lived a very productive life since he sobered up and has helped many people be sponsoring them in AA. I have nothing but praise for AA. Craig is an idiot.
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newlife
I am in a 12 step program and have been for almost 18 years. I totally believe God brought me to the program, although at first, I was like, ok I must be here to help all these poor people! LOL Not too much ego huh?
I found I was there for me because I was so screwed up.
If you take a good long look at those steps you will see how they are principles that are biblical based. And I will tell you these people are some (not all) of the most honest people I have ever met. Working the steps is all about application and not doctrine. And it's not an easy program, but it's simple. It has changed my life for the better.
For me, I found I had so much doctrine and was so confused about everything, I didn't even know what to think. I couldn't get to a solution to my problems. Going through the steps, changed me. It made me look at me instead of everyone else. It made me get honest about my life. It set me on the right course for my life. And it freed me from resentment, from putting the blame on people, being unforgiving. Eventually, it taught me how to maintain a life that is free from all those things.
The past can freeze a person and cause them to stay in their prison of regret, depression, anger, and unforgiving state etc. It can cause you to just keep going around the same circle over and over again. I was at the point when I entered the program that I didn't think that even GOD could put me back together again, which I never wanted to admit to anyone. Thankfully, I was wrong. He has done more than put me back together again....he has gone way past my expectations.
I will tell you that the 12 step program is a great program. I see miracles of lives being changed from the pit to healthy productive lives every day. Personally, I think everyone could benefit from working through the 12 steps. Who doesn't have a past that they aren't dragging around with them? Or Who doesn't have resentment, and anger, hurt and pain about their lives. Everyone does.
How do I live today? I live those steps. I've learned how to forgive, let go and let God. I've learned how to get an accurate perception of things that go on in my life, I've learned how to be honest about me and how I live.
God has worked amazingly in my life through this program, just by application of biblical principles. How can that be wrong?
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chockfull
My experience with 12 steps is completely related to interacting with Christians in my fellowships over the years that were alcoholics. Overall, they are much needed and very helpful. I did notice a difference in what you might call "degree of alcoholism". I mean there were some people that I saw drank a lot due to psychological trauma. (Maybe there's a lot on this forum that have been in that category). Those types of people tended to get better as they healed. Then there was the real disease - those people would never get better and need to never touch alcohol again in their lives as one beer or glass of wine would start an out of control spiral ending up in disaster.
The category of people with the real disease were the ones I thought needed to stay in AA 12 steps ongoing throughout their lives. For the others, I saw they may have gotten some benefit out of the program for a time, but it wasn't beneficial to stay in a 12 step program ongoing throughout their lives.
My experience or .02.
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OldSkool
Perfect description of my uncle.
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Keith
I don't know that LCM learned that attitude from VPW. At least during the short time I was in He recommend in a teaching once that leaders send alcoholics to AA rather than try to help them themselves. He may have very well changed his attitude later. Seems like He did did that on a lot of things.
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OldSkool
I explicitly remember him ranting on more than one occasion that AA was just replacing one set of devil spirits with another. What you are saying leads me to speculate a little on the subtle changes that came along with him.
1 - I know for a fact that Rosalie and Donna used his affairs against him and tried to keep him in check. They also pushed policy through on his watch. The no debt policy is a prime example. Perhaps, for legal liability's sake, they tried to tone his rantings down somewhat?
2 - It could be that he made statements such as this to keep people focused on finding the devout. LCM really wanted folks to find those who had their life together instead of people who needed help. This was stressed to us during my first way disciple tenure in 1998. We were after the devout - those searching for God but were already disciplined to live a godly life and needed further instruction. One example he loved to use was Priscilla and Aquilla when Paul took them further along than what they knew.
3 - A combination of both.
4 - Who the hell really knows? or cares?
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chockfull
This so transparently exposes TWI as a leech of an organization.
First, they don't want to reach people in genuine need or with obvious needs - that would actually require doing some work, getting the hands dirty, helping people who are down and out improve and put their lives back together. You know - real beneficial work that legitimate non-profit corporations are doing all the time.
Second, they are after the devout. Why? No problems, steady work, more money. Where does the money go? To help the devout? No. It goes back to HQ's little fiefdom structure. And they keep a tight lid on the money. 75/25 was the budget breakdown I was familiar with. When the ABS in a state went below what would support having a Limb coord. be salaried, they have always asked them to work secularly, and keep the same workload.
Third, they have zero infrastructure in communities. People meet in homes, usually in violation of local housing ordinances. There was even specific language that would be communicated from the Trunk office to use when neighbors complained about parking or gathering problems. We would always be encouraged to use free rooms for community meetings - in Branches - like libraries, community centers, fire stations, etc. So that we wouldn't have to pay to have larger meetings. Then after that care was taken to keep costs down on Limb level meetings, and approval would be denied for anything nice.
If you look at this from a perspective of the real underlying reason is TWI wants to leech off society, collect money for doing as little as possible, and preserve their little fiefdoms.
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Twinky
Thanks, all, and Newlife especially, for your really thoughtful post.
I think the real objection of LCM was to the phrase in steps 3 and 11: God as we understood Him. Our job is to teach fully and acc'rately who God is, doncha know! And that alone would help people. And step 4 requires thinking and introspection - not "action."
TWI isn't good at giving real practical help to those who need it. Individuals are, yes, but the organization as a whole, no. And having to deal with people with complex problems (because addiction doesn't come alone) takes time - time that could be spent "moving the word."
In addition, TWI isn't giving to allowing people time for introspective soul-searching. Quiet time meditating on the Word. It seems to me that to make "a searching and fearless moral inventory of" oneself can take a very long time. Yet not to do that, at least at some level, means the "old man nature" is simply dormant, not dead, in those areas where one doesn't allow the fullness of the new birth to take effect.
2 Cor 10:5,6 exhort us:
How can you bring "every thought" into captivity, cast down every imagination etc, if you don't root out where such thoughts and imaginations come from? If you only keep stamping on the "thought" rather than considering why you keep getting such thoughts and then rooting that out, you're not really dealing with the problem. You're simply knocking on the door of the stronghold, not working out a strategy to destroy the stronghold itself.
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OperaBuff
One of my best friends is in AA, and it saved his life. He was totally out of control with drinking, then one day he hit bottom, hard. Took himself to an AA meeting, and has been doing great for many years now. He's always the first one at the morning meetings, so he can make the coffee for everyone else!
Why would Craig object to AA when it has obviously helped thousands if not millions of people escape an addiction? Maybe it's got something to do with that river in Egypt...
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OldSkool
Well, it's been a few years, but here goes. Craig said at times that people became addicted to AA and it was replacing one addiction with another, one set of spirits with another. Because alcoholism was devil spirit caused the only to get rid of it was through the Word of God. And of course he meant as taught by him and TWI. I know he said this in part because alcoholics need to keep attending meetings for support to battle their disease, and they eventually go on to sponsor others.
Craig also strongly objected to the whole higher power concept because it didn't acknowledge Jesus Christ as the way to the Father.
Never mind that alcoholics hitting rock bottom can be in life or death situations. Never mind that AA leaves room for a person to come to God w/o beating them over the head with theology. Never mind that AA tolerates a person's religious beliefs for what they are and loves them anyway. Never mind all of that.
To top it off, my uncle became Christian through the higher power concept. Except, when he first sobered up, he was in such a sad state of mind that the only way to reach him was to let him discover God through the higher power concept.
Have I mentioned lately that Craig was a blathering idiot?
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waysider
You can link to "The Big Book" on line. (The A.A. "Bible")
http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_tableofcnt.cfm
I've heard that Wierwille borrowed heavily from concepts contained in it.
I haven't looked through it so I can't verify that.
The link is there, though, for anyone choosing to take a closer look.
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OperaBuff
Craig didn't like gay people, but he married one. Craig didn't like AA, but he used to suck on mints to hide the smell of booze on his breath. I ain't no doctor, but by golly I'm seeing a trend there. (Private memo to Craig: Closets are for clothes.)
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OldSkool
Craigers was a boozer too?
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Twinky
Is how I remember it, too.
The 12-step program is a "spiritual counterfeit." (Hmph!!)
Good on your uncle, OS, for finally coming to his senses.
OperaBuff, no Craig didn't have a drink problem. He had a food problem - overate and got very fat in the "fog years" - and then slimmed down pretty well.
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OperaBuff
Ah, ok, my bad. I thought I remembered reading in here somewhere that he became a mint sucker. Sorry to cast aspersions on such a nice guy..
Sorry too for going off topic, Twinky. AA is a worthy organization, fully deserving of our undivided attention. Truly, if you had seen my friend before and after AA and its 12 step program, you'd've been amazed by the positive changes in him. His job requires him to travel frequently, and he always seeks out a local AA meeting wherever he goes. AA gave us our friend back.
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skyrider
My twelve step program is centered on distancing myself from twi's cult.....
1) TWI is a composite organization of psuedo-christian and occultist elements.
2) Wierwille was not a 'man of God' in any sense of biblical understanding.
3) PFAL was filled with private interpretation and agenda-driven marketing.
4) Other classes like Way Tree, CFS, and Renewed Mind were detrimental to growth.
5) The WOW Program was front-loaded with all benefits to twi, not the individual.
6) The Way Corps program was designed to indoctrinate and idolize wierwille legacy.
7) Therefore.....everything twi-related needs to be re-evaluated with critical thought.
8) Therefore.....every step I take is to distance my life from the twi cult.
9) Therefore.....I regain my true self and embrace my core values.
10) Therefore.....husband, father, son, brother, uncle, are responsibilites of joy!
11) Therefore.....coming to GreaseSpot Cafe is one contribution to warn others.
12) Therefore.....I will never again allow ANY organization that much control of my life.
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chockfull
Yeah, well it didn't work. I've encountered a few with the real disease that probably would have been better off at an AA meeting than a fellowship. Just by common sense, the folks at AA are much better equipped to handle the disease than your average fellowship coord. in TWI (or even you non-average - Corps / clergy / whatever). TWI provides NO training AT ANY LEVEL on dealing with the disease of alchoholism.
Hypocritically, he was largely governed by his Baptist upbringing there. VP would do moonshine at a night owl. Craig would never.
He should have stuck with his Baptist upbringing on sex.
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excathedra
i know more 12-steppers than i do christians or atheists or aliens
if it saves your life, i get down on my knees and thank god
i am not a believer in it
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shazdancer
AA was based on a Christian organization, the Oxford Group. The founders of AA backed off of the references to God, and moved to referring to a "higher power," in an attempt to not make God a stumbling block to sobriety. So yes, they left the door open for someone to "get the program," which for many AAers meant coming to God through Christ. (To some, the higher power meant believing in the strength of the AA group or some other concept.)
But what I find sad is that TWI has a history, not of helping people with a drinking problem to overcome it, but of kicking them to the curb and telling everyone else that alcoholics are possessed and should believe bigger. This very thing happened to my first husband, who drank, and me with him, who did not. So much for the loving care that is the true essence of Christianity.
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Twinky
... Or any other illness - physical or mental.
... Or any other kind of problem, relationship, work, personal ... money...
It was only "Believe what the Word says!" without the practical help to take the necessary action.
I do have an acquaintance, a Christian man, who was alcoholic, into drugs too I think; he loves going to AA, speaks frequently at various meetings (not just at AA meetings) to help others overcome their addiction - in fact, seems to have made it his personal ministry. He knows what God has rescued him from and loves sharing his story with others. I think he sees AA as God's rescue plan for him.
I feel encouraged by replies that indicate the success of this program. Another of those TWI stumbling blocks kicked to the kerb, I think.
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johniam
This reminds me of something VP used to say. Something to the effect of, 2 guys get dead drunk and sleep it off. One gets up the next day, has a drink and he's OK. The other gets up, has a drink, and can't stop drinking until he's dead drunk again. The second guy was the alcoholic, possessed.
I once knew a believer who was involved with Amway. He said good things about them plus one major criticism: that, as AA has been described on this thread, Amway leads people to Christianity and after they convert you they make you feel like you owe your Christianity to Amway. But if it helps, it helps.
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OldSkool
VP was an idiot. He also said cancer was devil spirit possession and then died of cancer. Alcoholism has no more to do with possession than cancer does.
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waysider
That sounds like another way of saying, "The end justifies the means.".
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OldSkool
And just to further illustrate Wierwille's and TWI's ignorance on the subject. Research has identified five types of alcoholics.
Types of Alcoholics
AA has known for sometime there are various and sundry types of alcoholics, from binge drinkers to chronic drinkers. Once again, Wierwille shows his vast ignorance speaking on a subject he pretends to know something about and then sums it up as....drum roll please...."their possessed." As as smart as Wierwille could have been had he really applied himself, he was little more than a mental midget in most cases.
I wonder what type of alcoholic Wierwille was?
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