This so transparently exposes TWI as a leech of an organization.
First, they don't want to reach people in genuine need or with obvious needs - that would actually require doing some work, getting the hands dirty, helping people who are down and out improve and put their lives back together. You know - real beneficial work that legitimate non-profit corporations are doing all the time.
Second, they are after the devout. Why? No problems, steady work, more money. Where does the money go? To help the devout? No. It goes back to HQ's little fiefdom structure. And they keep a tight lid on the money. 75/25 was the budget breakdown I was familiar with. When the ABS in a state went below what would support having a Limb coord. be salaried, they have always asked them to work secularly, and keep the same workload.
Third, they have zero infrastructure in communities. People meet in homes, usually in violation of local housing ordinances. There was even specific language that would be communicated from the Trunk office to use when neighbors complained about parking or gathering problems. We would always be encouraged to use free rooms for community meetings - in Branches - like libraries, community centers, fire stations, etc. So that we wouldn't have to pay to have larger meetings. Then after that care was taken to keep costs down on Limb level meetings, and approval would be denied for anything nice.
If you look at this from a perspective of the real underlying reason is TWI wants to leech off society, collect money for doing as little as possible, and preserve their little fiefdoms.
Chock, your post is so good, that I can't add anything to it.
One of my best friends is in AA, and it saved his life. He was totally out of control with drinking, then one day he hit bottom, hard. Took himself to an AA meeting, and has been doing great for many years now. He's always the first one at the morning meetings, so he can make the coffee for everyone else!
Why would Craig object to AA when it has obviously helped thousands if not millions of people escape an addiction? Maybe it's got something to do with that river in Egypt...
Craig didn't like gay people, but he married one. Craig didn't like AA, but he used to suck on mints to hide the smell of booze on his breath. I ain't no doctor, but by golly I'm seeing a trend there. (Private memo to Craig: Closets are for clothes.)
Yes, I'm sure one could become "addicted" to the meetings...friendship, companionship, likeminded people, wanting to be understood, not judged - same sort of thing that brings people into churches - or cults.
Tonight at church was the 8th step in this "spiritual journey" that they're taking us on. I have to say, since starting this thread and considering all your replies, I've found this evenings talk (sermon) more helpful and listened to it in some different sort of way.
The way the sermon series is being presented is: we're addicted to self. Addition to ego. To our greedy desires. To our "oil addiction" in use of cars, plastics, etc. Our addition to the "now" culture. Or maybe to computers, games, Facebook, etc, which are often used to substitute for real companionship with the people right there in front of you.
The vicar in charge would like us to reflect on our lives, how to examine some of our barriers to God, and how we can become more open to God working in our lives.
Twinky, there are various types of 12-Step Programs. If you really want to know what they are like, go to some, and find out for yourself. You can usually find them on-line.
Good Morning Everyone....I want to preface my post by saying, I'm not coming to defend 12 step programs but I am coming to give an accurate picture of them.
Not everyone who comes to a 12 step program is there because they want help. Some come because of being court ordered and come to get their paper signed for the court and when they reached the needed number of Meetings take off and don't come back. Some come because of pressure the family puts on them and usually they have a hard time succeeding. Others come and once there decide this is a cool place to pick of a girl or guy. And I'm sure there are any number of other reasons why people come to the program. In the beginning I thought everyone was there for the same reason I was, to get help. I found out that is not accurate. But, I learned that I, as a human being, could not judge whether this person or that person would make it and change their life. Some I thought wouldn't did. Some I thought would, didn't.
The ones that succeed are those who come and want the help and they come for themselves, not for the court, not for family, but they are honest about needing and wanting the help. Those people are the ones to really work hard to get the program and they do in fact turn their lives around. I have been there for almost 18 years now and I've seen tons of people come in and get a beautiful life. I've also seen tons of people who come in and out of the program like a revolving door. I've also been to a lot of funerals because of suicide or overdoses. Unfortunately, the alternatives to change are few, jails, institutions or death.
There is no leadership in a 12 step program. It's based on the 12 steps, and 12 traditions. It runs because people volunteer to do a job, like chair a meeting, or help out with a public explanation at a hospital about their selected program. And having come from TWI where Leadership was a Huge deal, I was amazed that there are no designated leaders here, only people who want to do service and yet it has run and run for years and years. I really learned that the reason it runs is because of God.
So yes, unfortunately, there are those who do not give the program a good name, but there are many who do.
Just like there are many christians who give christianity and God a bad name. We all know that from experience.
The 12 step program of today is not the same 12 step program it was in the beginning. It was started and based on Christianity and the true God. The book of James, the Sermon on the Mt. and 1 Corinthians 13 were the three most used passages in getting people turned around. Through the years this has been added, this has been subtracted, to where it has deviated from the original program...However it still works for people who want to work it. And if they don't want to, it still works just not for them.
Of course, I am so very thankful for the 12 step program because with God, it gave me the beautiful life that I now have.
I hope I have not defended, but given an accurate perspective as from one who is involved.
NL, yes!!! Your post is so good, I have nothing to add!
I had a pretty bad drinking problem when I was with TWI, I tried several things to get a handle on it but to no avail. I did have a Limb coordinator even suggest that I go to AA. After leaving TWI I still struggled with it off and on for quite a while, I tried marijuana maintenance for several years which helped to curb my drinking and my life was certainly better than it was with drinking but I never really dealt with the things necessary for my emotional and spiritual well being. It also conflicted with my job because of random drug testing which was a major source of stress so eventually I ended up drinking again and that is when things really got bad. I ended up with a divorce and my life spiraled out of control for several years. I was looking at a prison sentence and numerous other legal entanglements, so I ended up in rehab. I had totally given up at this point and figured I was just going to die this way. But for some reason (God most likely) I decided to give it a shot and do the 12 step thing.
I by no stretch of the imagination did it perfectly, I did about everything wrong as far as what others would recommend but apparently did a few things right. I cleared out a lot of my wreckage of my past and learned to forgive myself and others. I learned what humility really meant. I give a lot of credit of where I am today because of AA and the 12 step program and see nothing wrong with it from a biblical perspective, there are many principles in it that go right along with things that I have learned even in TWI. But a person has to give it a chance and not look at all the things wrong with it, the people in it are pretty messed up so they have plenty of flaws. But if a person is really seeking a relationship with God then it can certainly work for them.
I had a pretty bad drinking problem when I was with TWI, I tried several things to get a handle on it but to no avail. I did have a Limb coordinator even suggest that I go to AA. After leaving TWI I still struggled with it off and on for quite a while, I tried marijuana maintenance for several years which helped to curb my drinking and my life was certainly better than it was with drinking but I never really dealt with the things necessary for my emotional and spiritual well being. It also conflicted with my job because of random drug testing which was a major source of stress so eventually I ended up drinking again and that is when things really got bad. I ended up with a divorce and my life spiraled out of control for several years. I was looking at a prison sentence and numerous other legal entanglements, so I ended up in rehab. I had totally given up at this point and figured I was just going to die this way. But for some reason (God most likely) I decided to give it a shot and do the 12 step thing.
I by no stretch of the imagination did it perfectly, I did about everything wrong as far as what others would recommend but apparently did a few things right. I cleared out a lot of my wreckage of my past and learned to forgive myself and others. I learned what humility really meant. I give a lot of credit of where I am today because of AA and the 12 step program and see nothing wrong with it from a biblical perspective, there are many principles in it that go right along with things that I have learned even in TWI. But a person has to give it a chance and not look at all the things wrong with it, the people in it are pretty messed up so they have plenty of flaws. But if a person is really seeking a relationship with God then it can certainly work for them.
thanks for sharing your story, damurf ! very inspiring for this New Year's Day.
thanks for sharing your story, damurf ! very inspiring for this New Year's Day.
Thanks, the program basically saved my life. I am certain I would have been dead or locked up for good by now had I not taken that path. I know others who have used church or something of the sort to clean up but in my case it wasn't working. I tried about everything else.
LCM going off about a program not created by TWI? No way.
When did the two drink limit begin? Covering for VPW's legacy or saving money? Out of fellowship began at that next sip after two drinks, not on drunkenness. That's where the Adversary gets his foot in your "door".
On 7/5/2017 at 10:44 PM, Grace Valerie Claire said:
OB, Da Nile??!!
Craiggers had to be the man with a plan.I went through rehab for alcohol before my twi days.I knew the monster below the surface.Better to be buried than to taunt the urge to drink.The way was full of ka ka (dange) when it came to alcohol addiction
The Way due to its inherent narcissism distilled as culture from the founder has never been known to collaborate with others in the Christian community or secular expert community.
12 step has probably done more genuine good for more people throughout its existence than the Way has. Just look at numbers it is a no brainer.
LCM used to shout about what a counterfeit the 12 step program was/is. (Maybe he learned that from VPW, would he think of that himself?) I know nothing about this program personally; I do know a few people who have suffered from alcohol addiction who have found the AA program very helpful.
I was very surprised, suspicious, freaked out .. to find that this is the subject of the current term's teachings at one of the churches that I attend. But this sermon series is about the 12 steps on our road to spiritual recovery and our increasing dependence on God ... weaning ourselves off addition to ego, self-centredness, and material obsessions (whatever they may be, including use of oil - fuel, plastics, etc).
These are the original Twelve Steps as published by Alcoholics Anonymous:
We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character
Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.
Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
I wondered if any of you here have explored these 12 steps in a spiritual (Godly) way; or if any of you have experienced applying them as part of a program for some addition you've had?
I wrote most of this in a discussion group that focuses on the brain and the mind. My main interest there is "free will" and I started studying it over 50 years ago, even before I started reading the Bible. Most academic researchers of the brain and the mind Mock the 12-step programs, so I wrote this for them.
BTW, Twinky, I had heard the opposite, that VPW liked the AA organization's principles, and I know for sure he "borrowed" (LoL) some of their ideas in his teachings at times.
A tiny bit of background.
The discussion was on the archaic use of terms like "disease" in the 12-step programs.
It is fashionable in modern academics that research the brain to think that the human self, the soul, is an illusory fiction. It's silly, and I pay little attention to this in my research. But it comes up often these days in those circles to say there no reality to self. Crazy, I know. I addressed this a tiny bit in what I wrote for them.
About 35 years ago I has a close friend who had been in AA recovery but relapsed, badly. In order to help, I accompanied her to a number of “open” AA meetings for psychological support. I learned a lot.
There was a lot of chaotic, and pathetic speech there, but I quickly learned that there were a few seasoned old timers with substantial wisdom, who were keeping the train somewhat on the tracks. At their suggestion, I bought their big “Blue Book,” the AA Bible, to help me help my friend more efficiently. That book was an EYEOPENER!
Forget DISEASE, they called alcohol an ALLERGY !
But as I read their Blue Book it became apparent that the language used in it had a strong flavor of an ancient dialect of American English. It was country-style language in many passages and articles within. It turns out most of it was written by old people, in rural Ohio, where their language style had not quite turned the century into the 1900s.
"Allergy" was their word for addiction, as that was the term in the air the authors of the Blue Book breathed. Once I got over that hump, lots more of the Blue Book made sense.
The extreme types of addiction they talked about used a mental economy that terms like “possession” helped to convey. The audience of these archaic terms, like allergy, disease, oppression, and possession, were NOT interested in the latest academic paradigms from medicine or philosophy.
The members of the audience the Blue Book was addressed to wanted ONLY to be able to make better decisions tomorrow, because yesterdays decisions were disastrous.
This book fascinated me, and I vowed to read it again…. someday…. as soon as I had time…. which never happened. Maybe next month.
It was totally focused on the practical and not the academic use of terms.
The terms oppression and possession seemed in many ways to be involving a “self.” I know in this group the term “self” can be scorned as obsolete by an eloquent poster, who obviously relies on (in the post’s text) the mental economy that the term “self” refers to. LoL I always get a chuckle when that happens.
I like the term “self,” although I recognized that is not like a polished set of stable elements. My “self” is constantly taking in new information, and morphing in micro ways this way and that.
Exploring slightly modified versions of itself is something the self does, constantly. But overall there is a central core to most "selves" that best friends have no trouble identifying.
The “self” is a good and useful approximation… most of the time.
But in extreme situations, it can get battered. Useful versions of a self can be unstable and easily “lost” in the shuffle.
Fragmentary “selves” that ARE stable, can be none-the-less extremely destructive. These are the oppression and possession stages that are very well described in the archaic language of the AA Blue Book.
Once a reader has the ability to read past these two terms, plus the "disease" and "allergy" terms, the Blue Book is a must-read for anyone interested in the human decision process, independent of their stance on "free will" or "no free will."
It is almost comical how TWI not only bends the English language to distort the followers reality . . . But claims understanding of ancient languages in order to help inject more nonsense into its cult speak.
To be be physically alive but only able to communicate in terms of male bovine feces to the people closest to you. Must be a wonderful life.
Yes and no. What we describe as being blue is found between about 450-485 nm on the visible portion of the EM spectrum . It has always existed there. It's a matter of acquired perception. That's where indoctrination enters the discussion.
On a side note: If BB King had lived in ancient times, would he have sung "How Grey Can You Get?"?
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chockfull
In many ways AA has done a work that TWI was and is too lazy to ever do anything close to. They have taken a specific category of people with special needs and dedicated resources to helping them. T
damurf
I had a pretty bad drinking problem when I was with TWI, I tried several things to get a handle on it but to no avail. I did have a Limb coordinator even suggest that I go to AA. After leaving TWI I s
OldSkool
My uncle has been in AA for around 30 years. It saved his life. He has lived a very productive life since he sobered up and has helped many people be sponsoring them in AA. I have nothing but praise f
Grace Valerie Claire
Chock, your post is so good, that I can't add anything to it.
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Grace Valerie Claire
OB, Da Nile??!!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Sky, I wish your post was printed on the front-page of every newspaper in the country; it's that good!!!
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Grace Valerie Claire
OB, I love your posts!! They make me laugh!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Twinky, there are various types of 12-Step Programs. If you really want to know what they are like, go to some, and find out for yourself. You can usually find them on-line.
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Grace Valerie Claire
NL, yes!!! Your post is so good, I have nothing to add!
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Twinky
I referred to this subject elsewhere, so thought I'd bump it up. It's a great thread with some really good advice.
Here's a link to something I found more recently. Celebrate Recovery's 12 Steps
This is a link to the book that I referenced in the opening post: Breathing Under Water: Spirituality and the Twelve Steps: Amazon.co.uk: Rohr, Richard: 8580001051727: Books
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Rocky
HNY Twinky, from another dimension... sort of. I'm in 2021, and as I understand it, you're in 2022!.
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Twinky
Yep, 2022 - but for both of us now, I think. Happy new year to you, too.
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damurf
I had a pretty bad drinking problem when I was with TWI, I tried several things to get a handle on it but to no avail. I did have a Limb coordinator even suggest that I go to AA. After leaving TWI I still struggled with it off and on for quite a while, I tried marijuana maintenance for several years which helped to curb my drinking and my life was certainly better than it was with drinking but I never really dealt with the things necessary for my emotional and spiritual well being. It also conflicted with my job because of random drug testing which was a major source of stress so eventually I ended up drinking again and that is when things really got bad. I ended up with a divorce and my life spiraled out of control for several years. I was looking at a prison sentence and numerous other legal entanglements, so I ended up in rehab. I had totally given up at this point and figured I was just going to die this way. But for some reason (God most likely) I decided to give it a shot and do the 12 step thing.
I by no stretch of the imagination did it perfectly, I did about everything wrong as far as what others would recommend but apparently did a few things right. I cleared out a lot of my wreckage of my past and learned to forgive myself and others. I learned what humility really meant. I give a lot of credit of where I am today because of AA and the 12 step program and see nothing wrong with it from a biblical perspective, there are many principles in it that go right along with things that I have learned even in TWI. But a person has to give it a chance and not look at all the things wrong with it, the people in it are pretty messed up so they have plenty of flaws. But if a person is really seeking a relationship with God then it can certainly work for them.
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T-Bone
thanks for sharing your story, damurf ! very inspiring for this New Year's Day.
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damurf
Thanks, the program basically saved my life. I am certain I would have been dead or locked up for good by now had I not taken that path. I know others who have used church or something of the sort to clean up but in my case it wasn't working. I tried about everything else.
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Bolshevik
LCM going off about a program not created by TWI? No way.
When did the two drink limit begin? Covering for VPW's legacy or saving money? Out of fellowship began at that next sip after two drinks, not on drunkenness. That's where the Adversary gets his foot in your "door".
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frank123lol
You were weak if alcohol was a problem.As some how they were more cerebral.The superior way int
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frank123lol
Craiggers had to be the man with a plan.I went through rehab for alcohol before my twi days.I knew the monster below the surface.Better to be buried than to taunt the urge to drink.The way was full of ka ka (dange) when it came to alcohol addiction
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chockfull
The Way due to its inherent narcissism distilled as culture from the founder has never been known to collaborate with others in the Christian community or secular expert community.
12 step has probably done more genuine good for more people throughout its existence than the Way has. Just look at numbers it is a no brainer.
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Mike
I wrote most of this in a discussion group that focuses on the brain and the mind. My main interest there is "free will" and I started studying it over 50 years ago, even before I started reading the Bible. Most academic researchers of the brain and the mind Mock the 12-step programs, so I wrote this for them.
BTW, Twinky, I had heard the opposite, that VPW liked the AA organization's principles, and I know for sure he "borrowed" (LoL) some of their ideas in his teachings at times.
A tiny bit of background.
The discussion was on the archaic use of terms like "disease" in the 12-step programs.
It is fashionable in modern academics that research the brain to think that the human self, the soul, is an illusory fiction. It's silly, and I pay little attention to this in my research. But it comes up often these days in those circles to say there no reality to self. Crazy, I know. I addressed this a tiny bit in what I wrote for them.
This, below, is what I wrote:
////////////////////////////////////////////////////
About 35 years ago I has a close friend who had been in AA recovery but relapsed, badly. In order to help, I accompanied her to a number of “open” AA meetings for psychological support. I learned a lot.
There was a lot of chaotic, and pathetic speech there, but I quickly learned that there were a few seasoned old timers with substantial wisdom, who were keeping the train somewhat on the tracks. At their suggestion, I bought their big “Blue Book,” the AA Bible, to help me help my friend more efficiently. That book was an EYEOPENER!
Forget DISEASE, they called alcohol an ALLERGY !
But as I read their Blue Book it became apparent that the language used in it had a strong flavor of an ancient dialect of American English. It was country-style language in many passages and articles within. It turns out most of it was written by old people, in rural Ohio, where their language style had not quite turned the century into the 1900s.
"Allergy" was their word for addiction, as that was the term in the air the authors of the Blue Book breathed. Once I got over that hump, lots more of the Blue Book made sense.
The extreme types of addiction they talked about used a mental economy that terms like “possession” helped to convey. The audience of these archaic terms, like allergy, disease, oppression, and possession, were NOT interested in the latest academic paradigms from medicine or philosophy.
The members of the audience the Blue Book was addressed to wanted ONLY to be able to make better decisions tomorrow, because yesterdays decisions were disastrous.
This book fascinated me, and I vowed to read it again…. someday…. as soon as I had time…. which never happened. Maybe next month.
It was totally focused on the practical and not the academic use of terms.
The terms oppression and possession seemed in many ways to be involving a “self.” I know in this group the term “self” can be scorned as obsolete by an eloquent poster, who obviously relies on (in the post’s text) the mental economy that the term “self” refers to. LoL I always get a chuckle when that happens.
I like the term “self,” although I recognized that is not like a polished set of stable elements. My “self” is constantly taking in new information, and morphing in micro ways this way and that.
Exploring slightly modified versions of itself is something the self does, constantly. But overall there is a central core to most "selves" that best friends have no trouble identifying.
The “self” is a good and useful approximation… most of the time.
But in extreme situations, it can get battered. Useful versions of a self can be unstable and easily “lost” in the shuffle.
Fragmentary “selves” that ARE stable, can be none-the-less extremely destructive. These are the oppression and possession stages that are very well described in the archaic language of the AA Blue Book.
Once a reader has the ability to read past these two terms, plus the "disease" and "allergy" terms, the Blue Book is a must-read for anyone interested in the human decision process, independent of their stance on "free will" or "no free will."
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Bolshevik
"Ancient dialect of Amercian English"
It is almost comical how TWI not only bends the English language to distort the followers reality . . . But claims understanding of ancient languages in order to help inject more nonsense into its cult speak.
To be be physically alive but only able to communicate in terms of male bovine feces to the people closest to you. Must be a wonderful life.
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T-Bone
did someone mention "The Blue Book" ?
Edited by T-BoneBlue Book Snooze Book
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Twinky
Scary, isn't it! But I think Mike's talking about the AA Blue Book. Maybe for clarity it could be called AA-Blue to distinguish it from PFAL-Blue?
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waysider
One of the key elements of AA is to have attendees meet frequently to reinforce a certain mindset.
Why does that sound familiar?
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Bolshevik
Because blue does not exist. We've all been indoctrinated.
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waysider
Yes and no. What we describe as being blue is found between about 450-485 nm on the visible portion of the EM spectrum . It has always existed there. It's a matter of acquired perception. That's where indoctrination enters the discussion.
On a side note: If BB King had lived in ancient times, would he have sung "How Grey Can You Get?"?
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Mike
Didn't Jesus use that technique to benefit his apostles?
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