I looked with delight at seeing that AA was started by a guy who later took acid. It all makes sense now. No, it doesn't make any sense.
I still maintain that while AA is not the be all end all of anything, it has worked for a lot of people. I heard LCM admit that in 1989 or so, but later in 1994 when he was gestapo craig he called it a damnable pile of crap or something. That pesky present truth y'know.
However, the same logic could be applied to....twi.
I still maintain that while AA is not the be all end all of anything, it has worked for a lot of people.
You sound like someone who doesn't understand alcoholism and the devastating effects it has on the alcoholic and their families. No one ever claimed it as the be all, end all for anything. For the alcoholic who is serious about the program and live the 12 steps it's literally a life saver. And as for Craig, who did he ever help or save. He helped himself generously and couldn't save himself from Rozilla giving him the boot.
That's awesome, Frank. You reminded me of something my friend once told me. He said his favorite part of being sober again was how enjoyable the mornings can be. "It's nice to wake up, instead of come to" he said.
A man came in on Friday. He 'fesses up to being an alcoholic - started drinking at age 15, now 38. After years of not admitting a problem, he now acknowledges it and is determined to beat it.
I had no hesitation in recommending him to get started with AA and get along to the meetings - even printed him a list straight from their website showing all nearby meetings.
I hope it works out for him.
I certainly don't think it will hinder or harm him.
I would never have recommended this step to him without your helpful comments on this thread.
I looked with delight at seeing that AA was started by a guy who later took acid. It all makes sense now. No, it doesn't make any sense.
I still maintain that while AA is not the be all end all of anything, it has worked for a lot of people. I heard LCM admit that in 1989 or so, but later in 1994 when he was gestapo craig he called it a damnable pile of crap or something. That pesky present truth y'know.
However, the same logic could be applied to....twi.
A man came in on Friday. He 'fesses up to being an alcoholic - started drinking at age 15, now 38. After years of not admitting a problem, he now acknowledges it and is determined to beat it.
I had no hesitation in recommending him to get started with AA and get along to the meetings - even printed him a list straight from their website showing all nearby meetings.
I hope it works out for him.
I certainly don't think it will hinder or harm him.
I would never have recommended this step to him without your helpful comments on this thread.
Wow. That's awesome.
In the very least he will find companionship with others that have a similar experience with the disease, and an ongoing membership in a group that helps them prove they beat the disease.
AA / NA can be problematic for people in that diseased people who aren't 100% committed to beating the disease can use these groups are a resource for networking to get drugs (NA) or relapse together. I saw more of that related to NA as it's easy to obtain booze anywhere, but not drugs. People were using NA to network for dealers.
Other complicit problems are things like I think the slang term is "13 stepping" indicating a mentor or sponsor abusing their status in the group to have sex with an addict. That's the same problem we saw in the ministry with people abusing that position.
I still think overall it is an easier route going to recovery with others help sharing your struggles than trying to go it alone in a society that doesn't care.
My client that I mentioned had managed to give up (on his own) for 18 months after having been hospitalised and "dried out." His old friends and a disastrous relationship dragged him back into it.
He tried recently to cut down drastically (on his own) and ended up being hospitalised again for a short period with "he says) the worst DTs the doctor had seen. He doesn't want that to happen again.
If he finds the support he needs from AA, I'll be delighted for him. He seems to have the motivation.
We all need support to change. Loving support. Speaking the truth in love. (Or at least kindness, maybe, from AA.) The Bible talks a lot about two by two - helping each other. Encouragement.
Hey, go out today and find random people to say something encouraging to. And don't forget to speak kind and encouraging words to your spouse, your kids, your workmates...
Good Morning Everyone....I want to preface my post by saying, I'm not coming to defend 12 step programs but I am coming to give an accurate picture of them.
Not everyone who comes to a 12 step program is there because they want help. Some come because of being court ordered and come to get their paper signed for the court and when they reached the needed number of Meetings take off and don't come back. Some come because of pressure the family puts on them and usually they have a hard time succeeding. Others come and once there decide this is a cool place to pick of a girl or guy. And I'm sure there are any number of other reasons why people come to the program. In the beginning I thought everyone was there for the same reason I was, to get help. I found out that is not accurate. But, I learned that I, as a human being, could not judge whether this person or that person would make it and change their life. Some I thought wouldn't did. Some I thought would, didn't.
The ones that succeed are those who come and want the help and they come for themselves, not for the court, not for family, but they are honest about needing and wanting the help. Those people are the ones to really work hard to get the program and they do in fact turn their lives around. I have been there for almost 18 years now and I've seen tons of people come in and get a beautiful life. I've also seen tons of people who come in and out of the program like a revolving door. I've also been to a lot of funerals because of suicide or overdoses. Unfortunately, the alternatives to change are few, jails, institutions or death.
There is no leadership in a 12 step program. It's based on the 12 steps, and 12 traditions. It runs because people volunteer to do a job, like chair a meeting, or help out with a public explanation at a hospital about their selected program. And having come from TWI where Leadership was a Huge deal, I was amazed that there are no designated leaders here, only people who want to do service and yet it has run and run for years and years. I really learned that the reason it runs is because of God.
So yes, unfortunately, there are those who do not give the program a good name, but there are many who do.
Just like there are many christians who give christianity and God a bad name. We all know that from experience.
The 12 step program of today is not the same 12 step program it was in the beginning. It was started and based on Christianity and the true God. The book of James, the Sermon on the Mt. and 1 Corinthians 13 were the three most used passages in getting people turned around. Through the years this has been added, this has been subtracted, to where it has deviated from the original program...However it still works for people who want to work it. And if they don't want to, it still works just not for them.
Of course, I am so very thankful for the 12 step program because with God, it gave me the beautiful life that I now have.
I hope I have not defended, but given an accurate perspective as from one who is involved.
Lets face it the "Dr"was a alcoholic,he had problems,at one meeting,i thought he sounds just like my dad,who had alcoholic problems.
The "Dr." would be really chatty,other times grumpy,quiet,stone face if you will,very elf serving.you get the picture."Coffee cup"always full.
We all tried to imitate a drunk!Twi as a whole never gave a rats a@2 for anyone unless you had money position ect.The it was special favors,permission to go where no one else went.
The aa program works,I never went again after the director admitted he went out and got blitzed the night before.You have to decide yourself to quit,
I understand AA started as a program based on Christian principles but the principles were widened a bit to accommodate non-Christians. Which is why some say things like "...God as we understood him."
No program, church, class, whatever, will help those who are just "bums on seats" and not there to really learn or understand. That's probably why TWI went after "those who really want to know" - rather than spend time showing those who lurk in the fringes and showing them authentic Christianity.
That's probably why TWI went after "those who really want to know" - rather than spend time showing those who lurk in the fringes and showing them authentic Christianity.
And let's not forget those they can exact a commitment out of are more likely to throw money into TWI's coffers one way or another.
Newlife, a nice explanation of what AA is, and how some people "get" the program and others don't. An active alcoholic is completely absorbed by drinking. Frank, you said it well when you talked about being changed at the moment you uncorked the bottle. I used to say that my ex could drink me under the table, but I would still be the same, and he would be different from the first drink. His own brother called him Jekyl and Hyde.
Twinky, I think that's really the point of AA, to break into the addicted personality, which is completely self-absorbed with the addiction, and turn the person to someone/something greater. The first step in AA is for the addicted drinker to admit powerlessness over alcohol, because up to that point the drinker was trying to make it somehow possible to continue drinking and have it be okay. Everything was serving alcohol.
The pure physical addiction of an alcoholic who is ingesting a lot of booze can kill a person who quits cold, so I would not recommend that such a person just stop alone. But recovered alcoholics are usually aware and know what to ask, so a drunk who stumbles into a meeting is not apt to die. Twinks, you might like to attend what is called an "open meeting," where newbies and nonalcoholics can get a sense of what a meeting is like, ask questions, and get some literature to read. I hope it helps.
Twinks, you might like to attend what is called an "open meeting," where newbies and nonalcoholics can get a sense of what a meeting is like, ask questions, and get some literature to read. I hope it helps.
That might not be a bad idea. Will see if I can fit one in.
We're doing this at church as seeking release from the addiction of "self" and turning to God/Jesus to rescue us from our addition. Alternatively, to our addition to consumerism, shopping, anything else. I think that some people really don't "get it" even though it's made abundantly clear that this series isn't just in relation to alcohol use. I suppose you could say that many in the congregation are in denial that they are addicted to self-love, or to keeping up with the Joneses, or whatever else distracts them from being fully committed in all their lifestyle to Godly goals.
Yes, the doors are open to anyone wanting to come, whether they are there for the right or the wrong reason, doesn't matter. We love them till they can love themselves and pray they get the help that we have received for ourselves.
Personality change....that is really it. Drinking, drugging, is just the covering of a deeper problem. If a personality change doesn't occur, it's very likely the person will return to his/her former ways. And how does that change occur? With God's help and going through the 12 steps. If you look at the steps they are simple but not easy. Who wants to look at their life and discover all the patterns of thinking and behavior that brought them to the point of a bottom in their life? It's difficult, but necessary. The end result of going through the steps is that you develop a relationship w/God, that you practice spiritual principles, such as kindness, forgiveness, service, love, tolerance, willing to admit to wrong and not having to be right all the time, and on and on of Godly Principles. IT is also about now doing God's will instead of your own. People come in self absorbed, angry, blaming the world for their problems (If he/she wouldn't have done this then I wouldn't have done that) And through working the steps, they change and the lives they get are beautiful.
It takes a lot of humility, honesty, open mindedness, and willingness. I am totally not the person I was before the program and I will be forever grateful.
Now in I believe the Ephesians class, University of Life, Dr said he started an aa group in Van Wert. (please correct me if I am wrong anyone) But when I heard him say that, I thought to myself, now, he could not have done that unless he himself knew he was an alcoholic. Non-alcoholics do not start 12 step meetings. So, I have to believe that somewhere in his mind, he knew he had a problem. But he if he was an alcoholic, and like other people who do not change, they go on with their same lifestyles, character and behavior which only gets worse and worse as time passes. People who are alcoholics, addicts, are good liars, angry, con people, manipulators, live in fantasy land, and are very self deluded and self absorbed. But they don't have to be that way, there is a way to another life. It's their choice.
When people need the program but don't get the program, their lives continue to go downhill. Now, many people don't go to a program, they go to church and get help, or other means that help them turn their lives around. The 12 step program don't own the corner on healing in this area....God Does. So whatever works for someone is great.
I can only tell my story and it involves the 12 step program and I will always be grateful.
LCM used to shout about what a counterfeit the 12 step program was/is. (Maybe he learned that from VPW, would he think of that himself?) I know nothing about this program personally; I do know a few people who have suffered from alcohol addiction who have found the AA program very helpful.
I was very surprised, suspicious, freaked out .. to find that this is the subject of the current term's teachings at one of the churches that I attend. But this sermon series is about the 12 steps on our road to spiritual recovery and our increasing dependence on God ... weaning ourselves off addition to ego, self-centredness, and material obsessions (whatever they may be, including use of oil - fuel, plastics, etc).
These are the original Twelve Steps as published by Alcoholics Anonymous:
Â
We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character
Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.
Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
I wondered if any of you here have explored these 12 steps in a spiritual (Godly) way; or if any of you have experienced applying them as part of a program for some addition you've had?
Twinky, I find 12 Step Programs to be very beneficial to me personally. Â They are much more Godly than TWI was.
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chockfull
In many ways AA has done a work that TWI was and is too lazy to ever do anything close to. They have taken a specific category of people with special needs and dedicated resources to helping them. T
damurf
I had a pretty bad drinking problem when I was with TWI, I tried several things to get a handle on it but to no avail. I did have a Limb coordinator even suggest that I go to AA. After leaving TWI I s
OldSkool
My uncle has been in AA for around 30 years. It saved his life. He has lived a very productive life since he sobered up and has helped many people be sponsoring them in AA. I have nothing but praise f
johniam
I looked with delight at seeing that AA was started by a guy who later took acid. It all makes sense now. No, it doesn't make any sense.
I still maintain that while AA is not the be all end all of anything, it has worked for a lot of people. I heard LCM admit that in 1989 or so, but later in 1994 when he was gestapo craig he called it a damnable pile of crap or something. That pesky present truth y'know.
However, the same logic could be applied to....twi.
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OldSkool
You sound like someone who doesn't understand alcoholism and the devastating effects it has on the alcoholic and their families. No one ever claimed it as the be all, end all for anything. For the alcoholic who is serious about the program and live the 12 steps it's literally a life saver. And as for Craig, who did he ever help or save. He helped himself generously and couldn't save himself from Rozilla giving him the boot.
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frank123lol
You have to change,friends,hangouts,ideas,one of which,time to get a buzz,buzz,buzz,no one seems to understand.
The best one I heard is the difference between alcohol and either,is that alcohol has water.They both are depressants.
A recovering Priest said that.Also an alcoholic is insane,why else would you do the same thing over and over?Been there done that.
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frank123lol
One other, alcohol will get you one way or the other.It is a drug.Some can drink a lifetime.
Some cannot.What I said way back when is"I'm fine until I take the cap off the bottle."
Another is you have to value your sobriety,let no one take that away from you.
Somehow you go from being insane to being sober,beware of "dry drunks"stinking thinking came from AA.
I like being in this sober state,being sharp aware liking normal feelings.It is the best rush.
An alcoholic goes from one addiction to another,make sure it is not harmful to you or others.Peace.
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OperaBuff
That's awesome, Frank. You reminded me of something my friend once told me. He said his favorite part of being sober again was how enjoyable the mornings can be. "It's nice to wake up, instead of come to" he said.
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excathedra
i do not believe in AA or other 12 steppers
i have more family members /friends in those programs than i can even list
BUT i am NOT against anything that works for them
the sad part is that insurance basically will only cover the above when you need help
i will not go into it all -- you're all very good at research -- and i don't feel like making this a speaking in tongues thread
respectfully,
ex
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Twinky
I do advice work in a voluntary capacity.
A man came in on Friday. He 'fesses up to being an alcoholic - started drinking at age 15, now 38. After years of not admitting a problem, he now acknowledges it and is determined to beat it.
I had no hesitation in recommending him to get started with AA and get along to the meetings - even printed him a list straight from their website showing all nearby meetings.
I hope it works out for him.
I certainly don't think it will hinder or harm him.
I would never have recommended this step to him without your helpful comments on this thread.
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cman
no one said anyone was perfect
the 12 steps did not originate with Bill Wilson
and he would be the first to tell you if he could
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chockfull
Wow. That's awesome.
In the very least he will find companionship with others that have a similar experience with the disease, and an ongoing membership in a group that helps them prove they beat the disease.
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excathedra
i really should stay away from this thread i know it i know it
do your homework please
you can find more drugs at NA than you can on the frucking streets
i have too much more to say but it's just hearbreaking and would be too hurtful
that includes AA as well (coming from a family of experts)
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chockfull
I will say that excie's advice is good here.
AA / NA can be problematic for people in that diseased people who aren't 100% committed to beating the disease can use these groups are a resource for networking to get drugs (NA) or relapse together. I saw more of that related to NA as it's easy to obtain booze anywhere, but not drugs. People were using NA to network for dealers.
Other complicit problems are things like I think the slang term is "13 stepping" indicating a mentor or sponsor abusing their status in the group to have sex with an addict. That's the same problem we saw in the ministry with people abusing that position.
I still think overall it is an easier route going to recovery with others help sharing your struggles than trying to go it alone in a society that doesn't care.
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excathedra
there needs to be other programs. there are some (very few) but none covered by medical insurance if you don't buy into disease 12 step philosophy
i remember my mom goint to see the shrink that welfare provided
she told him how glad she was her husband (my father) was getting into AA
he told her drinking was the least of his problems
so much more
oh fruck me
ps. maybe if you really feel like it -- see if it's a disease
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Twinky
My client that I mentioned had managed to give up (on his own) for 18 months after having been hospitalised and "dried out." His old friends and a disastrous relationship dragged him back into it.
He tried recently to cut down drastically (on his own) and ended up being hospitalised again for a short period with "he says) the worst DTs the doctor had seen. He doesn't want that to happen again.
If he finds the support he needs from AA, I'll be delighted for him. He seems to have the motivation.
We all need support to change. Loving support. Speaking the truth in love. (Or at least kindness, maybe, from AA.) The Bible talks a lot about two by two - helping each other. Encouragement.
Hey, go out today and find random people to say something encouraging to. And don't forget to speak kind and encouraging words to your spouse, your kids, your workmates...
God bless and have a great day, y'all.
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newlife
Good Morning Everyone....I want to preface my post by saying, I'm not coming to defend 12 step programs but I am coming to give an accurate picture of them.
Not everyone who comes to a 12 step program is there because they want help. Some come because of being court ordered and come to get their paper signed for the court and when they reached the needed number of Meetings take off and don't come back. Some come because of pressure the family puts on them and usually they have a hard time succeeding. Others come and once there decide this is a cool place to pick of a girl or guy. And I'm sure there are any number of other reasons why people come to the program. In the beginning I thought everyone was there for the same reason I was, to get help. I found out that is not accurate. But, I learned that I, as a human being, could not judge whether this person or that person would make it and change their life. Some I thought wouldn't did. Some I thought would, didn't.
The ones that succeed are those who come and want the help and they come for themselves, not for the court, not for family, but they are honest about needing and wanting the help. Those people are the ones to really work hard to get the program and they do in fact turn their lives around. I have been there for almost 18 years now and I've seen tons of people come in and get a beautiful life. I've also seen tons of people who come in and out of the program like a revolving door. I've also been to a lot of funerals because of suicide or overdoses. Unfortunately, the alternatives to change are few, jails, institutions or death.
There is no leadership in a 12 step program. It's based on the 12 steps, and 12 traditions. It runs because people volunteer to do a job, like chair a meeting, or help out with a public explanation at a hospital about their selected program. And having come from TWI where Leadership was a Huge deal, I was amazed that there are no designated leaders here, only people who want to do service and yet it has run and run for years and years. I really learned that the reason it runs is because of God.
So yes, unfortunately, there are those who do not give the program a good name, but there are many who do.
Just like there are many christians who give christianity and God a bad name. We all know that from experience.
The 12 step program of today is not the same 12 step program it was in the beginning. It was started and based on Christianity and the true God. The book of James, the Sermon on the Mt. and 1 Corinthians 13 were the three most used passages in getting people turned around. Through the years this has been added, this has been subtracted, to where it has deviated from the original program...However it still works for people who want to work it. And if they don't want to, it still works just not for them.
Of course, I am so very thankful for the 12 step program because with God, it gave me the beautiful life that I now have.
I hope I have not defended, but given an accurate perspective as from one who is involved.
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WordWolf
Ultimately, no program is a panacea, a cure-all.
If you're dedicated, even a bad program will help somewhat.
If you're not trying, even a good program will be of little use.
In between is everything else.
I'm sure there's many stories of people in AA/NA and so on who have been
helped greatly. I'm sure there's many stories of people who went into
the same programs and have been no better off, and many stories of people
who were worse off.
(I'd be shocked if the last 2 categories were equal in number to the first
one, as ultimately I think AA/NA etc help a lot more people than they don't.)
One difference between twi and 12-Step groups is that twi refuses to risk
helping people. If you have a problem, you're kicked out fast. If you're married
to someone who has a problem, you're kicked out fast. If your kid has a problem,
you're watched and encouraged to kick out your kid from your house.
(How's THAT for "Christian compassion?")
12-Steps programs, by definition, are risky for the reputations of the people
involved.
I was briefly associated with a church that was actively helping the local community.
One time, there was a mildly embarrassing incident that involved a recovering person
who acted up a bit during an event. Rather than condemn him and kick him out
(the twi way), the church sought to help him more. Did I mention they were/are
Roman Catholics? (Surprised me, too.)
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frank123lol
Lets face it the "Dr"was a alcoholic,he had problems,at one meeting,i thought he sounds just like my dad,who had alcoholic problems.
The "Dr." would be really chatty,other times grumpy,quiet,stone face if you will,very elf serving.you get the picture."Coffee cup"always full.
We all tried to imitate a drunk!Twi as a whole never gave a rats a@2 for anyone unless you had money position ect.The it was special favors,permission to go where no one else went.
The aa program works,I never went again after the director admitted he went out and got blitzed the night before.You have to decide yourself to quit,
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Twinky
Thanks, newlife, really appreciate your comments.
I understand AA started as a program based on Christian principles but the principles were widened a bit to accommodate non-Christians. Which is why some say things like "...God as we understood him."
No program, church, class, whatever, will help those who are just "bums on seats" and not there to really learn or understand. That's probably why TWI went after "those who really want to know" - rather than spend time showing those who lurk in the fringes and showing them authentic Christianity.
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OldSkool
And let's not forget those they can exact a commitment out of are more likely to throw money into TWI's coffers one way or another.
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shazdancer
Newlife, a nice explanation of what AA is, and how some people "get" the program and others don't. An active alcoholic is completely absorbed by drinking. Frank, you said it well when you talked about being changed at the moment you uncorked the bottle. I used to say that my ex could drink me under the table, but I would still be the same, and he would be different from the first drink. His own brother called him Jekyl and Hyde.
Twinky, I think that's really the point of AA, to break into the addicted personality, which is completely self-absorbed with the addiction, and turn the person to someone/something greater. The first step in AA is for the addicted drinker to admit powerlessness over alcohol, because up to that point the drinker was trying to make it somehow possible to continue drinking and have it be okay. Everything was serving alcohol.
The pure physical addiction of an alcoholic who is ingesting a lot of booze can kill a person who quits cold, so I would not recommend that such a person just stop alone. But recovered alcoholics are usually aware and know what to ask, so a drunk who stumbles into a meeting is not apt to die. Twinks, you might like to attend what is called an "open meeting," where newbies and nonalcoholics can get a sense of what a meeting is like, ask questions, and get some literature to read. I hope it helps.
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cman
Just so you know, if you don't.
It doesn't really matter if you are there for different reasons.
It will help one day, possibly, and with that, all are welcome.
I didn't go there with any good reasoning at first.
Even those who just want to somehow justify drinking are welcome.
Yeah, I seen it, doesn't matter with a good group.
And, also, if you can stop at 1 or 2 drinks or beers.
Then aa is not for you.
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Twinky
That might not be a bad idea. Will see if I can fit one in.
We're doing this at church as seeking release from the addiction of "self" and turning to God/Jesus to rescue us from our addition. Alternatively, to our addition to consumerism, shopping, anything else. I think that some people really don't "get it" even though it's made abundantly clear that this series isn't just in relation to alcohol use. I suppose you could say that many in the congregation are in denial that they are addicted to self-love, or to keeping up with the Joneses, or whatever else distracts them from being fully committed in all their lifestyle to Godly goals.
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cman
I will have to disagree with that approach Twinky.
Cause AA is for your SELF, and getting yourself free of alcohol.
If you don't get selfish about it, you can't hardly win.
"release from the addiction of "self" and turning to God/Jesus to rescue us"
I'm sorry, but this will not work, and is another excuse for waiting for some external miracle.
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newlife
Yes, the doors are open to anyone wanting to come, whether they are there for the right or the wrong reason, doesn't matter. We love them till they can love themselves and pray they get the help that we have received for ourselves.
Personality change....that is really it. Drinking, drugging, is just the covering of a deeper problem. If a personality change doesn't occur, it's very likely the person will return to his/her former ways. And how does that change occur? With God's help and going through the 12 steps. If you look at the steps they are simple but not easy. Who wants to look at their life and discover all the patterns of thinking and behavior that brought them to the point of a bottom in their life? It's difficult, but necessary. The end result of going through the steps is that you develop a relationship w/God, that you practice spiritual principles, such as kindness, forgiveness, service, love, tolerance, willing to admit to wrong and not having to be right all the time, and on and on of Godly Principles. IT is also about now doing God's will instead of your own. People come in self absorbed, angry, blaming the world for their problems (If he/she wouldn't have done this then I wouldn't have done that) And through working the steps, they change and the lives they get are beautiful.
It takes a lot of humility, honesty, open mindedness, and willingness. I am totally not the person I was before the program and I will be forever grateful.
Now in I believe the Ephesians class, University of Life, Dr said he started an aa group in Van Wert. (please correct me if I am wrong anyone) But when I heard him say that, I thought to myself, now, he could not have done that unless he himself knew he was an alcoholic. Non-alcoholics do not start 12 step meetings. So, I have to believe that somewhere in his mind, he knew he had a problem. But he if he was an alcoholic, and like other people who do not change, they go on with their same lifestyles, character and behavior which only gets worse and worse as time passes. People who are alcoholics, addicts, are good liars, angry, con people, manipulators, live in fantasy land, and are very self deluded and self absorbed. But they don't have to be that way, there is a way to another life. It's their choice.
When people need the program but don't get the program, their lives continue to go downhill. Now, many people don't go to a program, they go to church and get help, or other means that help them turn their lives around. The 12 step program don't own the corner on healing in this area....God Does. So whatever works for someone is great.
I can only tell my story and it involves the 12 step program and I will always be grateful.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Twinky, I find 12 Step Programs to be very beneficial to me personally. Â They are much more Godly than TWI was.
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