It would have been hard for TWI to ever "come clean" since Wierwille and his cronies were never "clean" to begin with. There were a lot of good-hearted people sucked into the organization over time, but I doubt that the top leadership was ever good-hearted. The top leaders were like vampires, battening on the good-will and credibility of the people they fooled.
Walking back thru a bit of history, one can pinpoint certain 'forks in the road' when TWI leadership could have admitted their shortcomings and errors in twi doctrine......AND pivoted toward the truth. Yet, sadly and deceptively......they obfuscated such responsibility before the Lord and covered their deeds in darkness.
Snip....
Of course, all of this presupposes that wierwille's ministry had ANYTHING OF VALUE that could have been salvaged.
And, the more I objectively look at twi's doctrines, practices, policies and propaganda.......the more I clearly see
that wierwille NEVER LED BY EXAMPLE. Oh, sure.....he "taught" and critiqued and scrutinized others' research, but was
always searching that magical formula to razzle/dazzle a following. Even, in hindsight, the speaking in tongues/Pentecost
stuff seems little more than a climax crescendo of session 12. Did wierwille's "speaking in tongues like a house of fire"
dramatically change and alter HIS life? Nope.
Snip....
Let me answer your question *cough* with a question.
Suppose VPW passed the mantle to Johnny Townsend instead of LCM. What difference would that have made? Sky, I know you were at HQ the same time as me. John was in charge of staff then and I watched him handle a couple of delicate issues with what I would call Christian wisdom. Before HQ, he was the California Limb leader and as far as I could tell, handled us reprobates quite well. I have heard the stories about how he went to the dark side after the power struggle. Nonetheless, with the JT I knew back then, I can imagine a reformed TWI with a strong code of ethics applicable to all leadership, more tolerance for respectful disagreement, and a more mellow acceptance of family and education.
Let me answer your question *cough* with a question.
Suppose VPW passed the mantle to Johnny Townsend instead of LCM. What difference would that have made? Sky, I know you were at HQ the same time as me. John was in charge of staff then and I watched him handle a couple of delicate issues with what I would call Christian wisdom. Before HQ, he was the California Limb leader and as far as I could tell, handled us reprobates quite well. I have heard the stories about how he went to the dark side after the power struggle. Nonetheless, with the JT I knew back then, I can imagine a reformed TWI with a strong code of ethics applicable to all leadership, more tolerance for respectful disagreement, and a more mellow acceptance of family and education.
Just saying...
Jim.......the Johnny T. that I observed while at hq was not all that perceptive (code word -- spiritual).
Around 1982, he was given oversight of those corps meetings AFTER the sunday service teaching.....yeah, corps grads
were highly encouraged to join in with inrez corps around 7:30pm. Well, ole Johnny would rehash the sunday teaching
AGAIN and proceed to ramble and ramble and ramble.....until like 10:45pm. It didn't take long before corps grads, and
I was among them, just stopped going. There were enough of us that twi leadership never mounted a rebuttal.
Yep, Johnny T. just loved to heard himself talk.......and lost track of any perception of others.
And, being the all-involved type of guy I was......on two occasions, I ran across a Johnny T. that was boozed up.
His slurring of words gave us alot of laughter at the time, but quite unimpressive to say the least. Plus, he'd
walk the grounds with that big chunk of chew and spitting all the time......and trying to act like wierwille.
So......no, I wouldn't say that Johnny would have been a better pick. <_<
Walking back thru a bit of history, one can pinpoint certain 'forks in the road' when TWI leadership could have admitted their shortcomings and errors in twi doctrine......AND pivoted toward the truth. Yet, sadly and deceptively......they obfuscated such responsibility before the Lord and covered their deeds in darkness.
snip
...all of this presupposes that wierwille's ministry had ANYTHING OF VALUE that could have been salvaged.
Never forget what Yogi Berra said: "When you come to a fork in the road, take it."
Bottom line, as I see it, is the same as your bottom line on this. It all presupposes...
Frankly, however, I disagree on whether Wierwille led by example.
TWI became what he lived as that example, a corrupt ministry that used people for personal gain and sexual gratification.
Suppose VPW passed the mantle to Johnny Townsend instead of LCM. What difference would that have made? Sky, I know you were at HQ the same time as me. John was in charge of staff then and I watched him handle a couple of delicate issues with what I would call Christian wisdom. Before HQ, he was the California Limb leader and as far as I could tell, handled us reprobates quite well. I have heard the stories about how he went to the dark side after the power struggle. Nonetheless, with the JT I knew back then, I can imagine a reformed TWI with a strong code of ethics applicable to all leadership, more tolerance for respectful disagreement, and a more mellow acceptance of family and education.
Townsend was the same guy who outlawed Bullinger Bibles in California.. wasn't he?
because of why? Bullinger offered intellectual, if not spiritual superiority to Da Vey International Doctrine?
i.e. he could not understand it, even after careful reading..
just an observation.
Never forget what Yogi Berra said: "When you come to a fork in the road, take it."
so I've left several spoons lying where they be. In the road..
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Steve Lortz
It would have been hard for TWI to ever "come clean" since Wierwille and his cronies were never "clean" to begin with. There were a lot of good-hearted people sucked into the organization over time, but I doubt that the top leadership was ever good-hearted. The top leaders were like vampires, battening on the good-will and credibility of the people they fooled.
Love,
Steve
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OldSkool
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Jim
Let me answer your question *cough* with a question.
Suppose VPW passed the mantle to Johnny Townsend instead of LCM. What difference would that have made? Sky, I know you were at HQ the same time as me. John was in charge of staff then and I watched him handle a couple of delicate issues with what I would call Christian wisdom. Before HQ, he was the California Limb leader and as far as I could tell, handled us reprobates quite well. I have heard the stories about how he went to the dark side after the power struggle. Nonetheless, with the JT I knew back then, I can imagine a reformed TWI with a strong code of ethics applicable to all leadership, more tolerance for respectful disagreement, and a more mellow acceptance of family and education.
Just saying...
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skyrider
Jim.......the Johnny T. that I observed while at hq was not all that perceptive (code word -- spiritual).
Around 1982, he was given oversight of those corps meetings AFTER the sunday service teaching.....yeah, corps grads
were highly encouraged to join in with inrez corps around 7:30pm. Well, ole Johnny would rehash the sunday teaching
AGAIN and proceed to ramble and ramble and ramble.....until like 10:45pm. It didn't take long before corps grads, and
I was among them, just stopped going. There were enough of us that twi leadership never mounted a rebuttal.
Yep, Johnny T. just loved to heard himself talk.......and lost track of any perception of others.
And, being the all-involved type of guy I was......on two occasions, I ran across a Johnny T. that was boozed up.
His slurring of words gave us alot of laughter at the time, but quite unimpressive to say the least. Plus, he'd
walk the grounds with that big chunk of chew and spitting all the time......and trying to act like wierwille.
So......no, I wouldn't say that Johnny would have been a better pick. <_<
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excathedra
oh maybe when rozzie and dozzie hang out their sheets
i sincerely apologize
i meant to say rosie and dosie
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OldSkool
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Rocky
Never forget what Yogi Berra said: "When you come to a fork in the road, take it."
Bottom line, as I see it, is the same as your bottom line on this. It all presupposes...
Frankly, however, I disagree on whether Wierwille led by example.
TWI became what he lived as that example, a corrupt ministry that used people for personal gain and sexual gratification.
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excathedra
very sad but makes sense to me in many ways
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skyrider
Hmmmm?.......you do make a valid point there, Rocky.
Guess I should have been more specific
Wierwille never led AN UPRIGHT EXAMPLE.....you know, 20th century apostle paul stuff :B)
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waysider
Oh, Lordy, here we go with Biblical comparisons again.
:biglaugh:
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Ham
Townsend was the same guy who outlawed Bullinger Bibles in California.. wasn't he?
because of why? Bullinger offered intellectual, if not spiritual superiority to Da Vey International Doctrine?
i.e. he could not understand it, even after careful reading..
just an observation.
so I've left several spoons lying where they be. In the road..
sowy..
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