Glad to see this thread brought back up to the top...had fun reading it.
It's hard for me to imagine how anyone ever took Geer seriously...outside of cult indoctrination that is. Seems that after the cornfield preacher was finally planted under the fountain, his most ardent disciples started playing musical chairs with the tools of group think methodology. The only problem was that when the music finally stopped, there were no more chairs to sit in. The end result of course was that those who thought they could pull it off started their own game with the portion of the cult that they could sneak out the back door with and rename.
Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice and it's time for a complete mental overhaul at a rehab clinic. The real losers of this experiential mind f**k are the ones who are still doing the back stroke in the septic tank of delusional mental illness. God is personal to each of us and shame and disgrace upon all those who turn it into a business.
Glad to see this thread brought back up to the top...had fun reading it.
It's hard for me to imagine how anyone ever took Geer seriously...outside of cult indoctrination that is. Seems that after the cornfield preacher was finally planted under the fountain, his most ardent disciples started playing musical chairs with the tools of group think methodology. The only problem was that when the music finally stopped, there were no more chairs to sit in. The end result of course was that those who thought they could pull it off started their own game with the portion of the cult that they could sneak out the back door with and rename.
Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice and it's time for a complete mental overhaul at a rehab clinic. The real losers of this experiential mind f**k are the ones who are still doing the back stroke in the septic tank of delusional mental illness. God is personal to each of us and shame and disgrace upon all those who turn it into a business.
The Geer defection took place at exactly the right time to capitalize on the enthusiasm of a believer like me, a newbie who could show he was not beholden to a cult by breaking away from it (right into the arms of the same cult, when you think about it).
I hear ya Raf...I can see how a newbie might gravitate towards Geer for the reasons you state...but for the most part, twi, at that time, consisted mostly of folks who had been around for years...most of them who knew Geer, didn't like him at all. He was mean spirited, arrogant, and aloof. I'm amazed, looking back, that anyone really took him seriously. He had the bot wetting their collective pants...most of the rank and file exited during all the drama...I knew Geer was a nut case from day one...and thankfully, so did most everyone else.
why did veepig like him? as if i didn't disrespect veepee enough already
when i buzzed veepee at HQ to report that nutgeer for destroying people, veepee didn't deny it - he just screamed at me
then when we flew one of those destroyed corps grads over from britain, veepee, donnie, craig, finnegan.... no one had the balls to defend him against psychogeer
broke my heart and my friend's heart so much worse
some of these people should pay a price for hurting destroying lives
There is therefore now great condemnation to them that are in The Way Ministry.
Always.
Twinky, please honey, be careful what you write in your posts!! Â I almost fainted when I read what you wrote!! Â Bull's eye!! Â I am very sure there is a lot of condemnation for those in Way World. Â But, why do people stay, knowing how twisted the organization is? Â There are probably very good reasons, at least to those who remain, why they stay. Â But I fear that by remaining, they will never see how great life can be outside of TWI. Â Myself, I could never live with all the condemnation I would accumulate by being in, and around The Way. Â From what I have read at GSC, TWI condemns people who leave, or who have left. Â How ungodly, and evil can an organization be? Â I would constantly condemn myself, and others if I lived in a state of constant condemnation. Â But I choose to leave years ago, and have never regretted it.
Chris Geer was so inept and confused himself - he was really the perfect tool, literally. No one could have bumbled their way through a so called effort to "help" others better than he did. He made a bull in a china shop seem like a ballet dancer in a field of wheat.
I am not the only one who felt upon hearing that he had shown up in Craig's lap with a list of posthumous belly aches from VP that we were in for a long, bumpy, ugly and smelly ride.
He's not unlike Lynn and others of that ilk - he admits later rather disingenuously that he was "poorly equipped" to carry out the work he was commissioned to do ("Oh woe is me, the burdened inadequate messenger who tried so hard!") while pointing his fat doughy finger of condemnation at anyone who ever had the misfortune to hear his voice. As with Lynn who raked VP and others over the COALS for their misconduct while dusting himself off as the now humbly and newly regenerated and so conveniently reinvented Teacher who had himself done wrong but who was all mo' better, just like that.
I think Geer cast himself in a romantic light, all drama and no substance. I never saw - not one - even a single statement - that stated clearly 1. what he thought was "wrong" with the Way and 2. what anyone was supposed to "do" to fix that. There was plenty wrong with the Way and lots that could be done to fix it but he resisted all efforts to nail it down to specific changes and rather kept pushing an agenda of being 1. "on the Word", 2. Following the "man of God", who was now actually dead and 3. returning to "The Word".
He turned any oppor',,tunity for positive change into a dithering whirlwind of condemnation and confusion, ultimately doing the exact opposite of what he said he wanted to do.
Or exactly what he really wanted to do - shove it in the crotch of the Way Nash people he despised so much one last time, for good.
Not to be too harsh, just sayin'....
I don't think you are being harsh; that is what I thought when I first read it back in 1986(?). Â I thought it was Bull, then and I still think it is Bull!
1989 should have been the end of the end of TWI, rather than the beginning or the middle. Those of us who left recognized much of what was wrong. Those who stayed recognized the opportunistic insincerity of Geer and company. Too few, far too few, recognized that both sides were engaged in a hypocritical, vain, self-centered power play. No one was right about their allegiance. All were right about the unworthiness of the side they did not choose.
Wow!! Â Raf, good post! I left in 1988. Â The Navy sent me to Italy, and when I came back to the USA, I no longer associated with TWI. I am glad that I got out when I did. I think TWI started to implode after VPW died.
Glad to see this thread brought back up to the top...had fun reading it.
It's hard for me to imagine how anyone ever took Geer seriously...outside of cult indoctrination that is. Seems that after the cornfield preacher was finally planted under the fountain, his most ardent disciples started playing musical chairs with the tools of group think methodology. The only problem was that when the music finally stopped, there were no more chairs to sit in. The end result of course was that those who thought they could pull it off started their own game with the portion of the cult that they could sneak out the back door with and rename.
Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice and it's time for a complete mental overhaul at a rehab clinic. The real losers of this experiential mind f**k are the ones who are still doing the back stroke in the septic tank of delusional mental illness. God is personal to each of us and shame and disgrace upon all those who turn it into a business.
Groucho, you are so right honey!! Â Good insight!!
Chris Geer was so inept and confused himself - he was really the perfect tool, literally. No one could have bumbled their way through a so called effort to "help" others better than he did. He made a bull in a china shop seem like a ballet dancer in a field of wheat.
I am not the only one who felt upon hearing that he had shown up in Craig's lap with a list of posthumous belly aches from VP that we were in for a long, bumpy, ugly and smelly ride.
He's not unlike Lynn and others of that ilk - he admits later rather disingenuously that he was "poorly equipped" to carry out the work he was commissioned to do ("Oh woe is me, the burdened inadequate messenger who tried so hard!") while pointing his fat doughy finger of condemnation at anyone who ever had the misfortune to hear his voice. As with Lynn who raked VP and others over the COALS for their misconduct while dusting himself off as the now humbly and newly regenerated and so conveniently reinvented Teacher who had himself done wrong but who was all mo' better, just like that.
I think Geer cast himself in a romantic light, all drama and no substance. I never saw - not one - even a single statement - that stated clearly 1. what he thought was "wrong" with the Way and 2. what anyone was supposed to "do" to fix that. There was plenty wrong with the Way and lots that could be done to fix it but he resisted all efforts to nail it down to specific changes and rather kept pushing an agenda of being 1. "on the Word", 2. Following the "man of God", who was now actually dead and 3. returning to "The Word".
He turned any opportunity for positive change into a dithering whirlwind of condemnation and confusion, ultimately doing the exact opposite of what he said he wanted to do.
Or exactly what he really wanted to do - shove it in the crotch of the Way Nash people he despised so much one last time, for good.
Not to be too harsh, just sayin'....
Good post!! Â Personally, I think you were too soft on Geer. Â I read his paper back in 1986(?), and thought it was bunk. In my opinion, it shows how inept Chris was. What a crybaby!! Â BTW, what is Chris doing these days? Â Is he still in Maine? Â Does anyone know about him?
I remember how people said that the BOD hadn't "repented" or "gone back to the Word" or some such. I didn't know what they were talking about because no one would be specific.
Neither did I!! Â I had no idea back then, how twisted they were. Â I know now, because people here at the GSC, have informed us of all the Trash that happened back in Way World, years ago.
This would turn dear mr geero into an extortionist..
besides other charges against his character..
and they still buy his classes. God help them..
I can't understand that. Â I have heard some of Chris's Gartmore tapes. Â Boring!!!! Â I would not waste my time, or money on anything connected with CG.
The Geer defection took place at exactly the right time to capitalize on the enthusiasm of a believer like me, a newbie who could show he was not beholden to a cult by breaking away from it (right into the arms of the same cult, when you think about it).
Raf, please forgive me if I am wrong, but I thought you were a Corps grad. Â I thought you knew most of the top leadership of TWI personally. Â
Nope. Not a Corps Grad. Not even a WOW. Just an avid reader.
Wow!!! Â Raf, I really didn't know that. Â You seem to know so much about TWI; I thought you had graduated from The Corps. Â I went out Wow in 1978-1978. Â My year was terrible!!! Â I took the AC in Rome City in July of 1985. Â I hated it; I thought it was a waste of time and money. Â Oh foolish youth!!
OS, you are so right!! Â My Wow year, 1978-1979, was terrible. Â I froze in Rome City, during the AC. Â For some reason, the air conditioning didn't work right. Â I don't know why it wasn't fixed; perhaps it would a lot of money to have had it fixed. Â I slept through most of the AC, because I had to wrap up in a blanket. Â I slept better in the classes, than I did at night. Â
My firsthand knowledge extends only to SOME of VF's activities in New York during and after the Geer defection/expulsion, plus some personal memories of ROA 1989 that right now aren't worth a whole heck of a lot to me or to many other people, I'd imagine.
I did have some personal communication with JAL years after TWI, and some further contact with Dubofsky through the magic of the internet.
As for Geer: I only know what he communicated to believers in the USA publicly (teaching tapes, his "Future Conisderations" so-called magazine, etc).
The letter I've called "The Epistle of Chris Geer to the Americans" was written in Nov. 1989 and addressed to subscribers of Gartmore Weekly Tapes and Future Considerations in the USA. It was a letter. An epistle is a letter. I never meant to imply that Geer was elevating his writing to the stature of scripture. I just thought it was funny. I wonder if Paul knew his letters would someday be scripture.
My firsthand knowledge extends only to SOME of VF's activities in New York during and after the Geer defection/expulsion, plus some personal memories of ROA 1989 that right now aren't worth a whole heck of a lot to me or to many other people, I'd imagine.
I did have some personal communication with JAL years after TWI, and some further contact with Dubofsky through the magic of the internet.
As for Geer: I only know what he communicated to believers in the USA publicly (teaching tapes, his "Future Conisderations" so-called magazine, etc).
The letter I've called "The Epistle of Chris Geer to the Americans" was written in Nov. 1989 and addressed to subscribers of Gartmore Weekly Tapes and Future Considerations in the USA. It was a letter. An epistle is a letter. I never meant to imply that Geer was elevating his writing to the stature of scripture. I just thought it was funny. I wonder if Paul knew his letters would someday be scripture.
Raf, I know a lot of people dislike VF, Â because he used to be a jerk. Â However, years ago I used to attend his fellowship in the Latham, NY area and I loved it. Â Vince himself has said that he made a lot of mistakes when he was in TWI. Â I believe he probably did, but then so did I. Â Again, I know many people dislike Vince, and they probably have good reasons for doing so. Â However, I have very fond memories of Vince, and think he is great guy!!! Â But, I remember Ralph D. Â I loved hearing Ralph teach; he was so funny!! Â I thought Ralph should have been the one to lead TWI after VPW died. Â Ralph didn't take S--t from anyone, but he didn't take advantage of anyone either. Â I know from reading the GSC, that he was badly treated by TWI, before he left. Â I always thought Ralph was one of the few bright spots, in TWI. Â I hope he is doing well these days; he is a great guy!!!
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socks
Chris Geer was so inept and confused himself - he was really the perfect tool, literally. No one could have bumbled their way through a so called effort to "help" others better than he did. He made a
socks
Excanesta, the way I remember it is thus. Ly: Early 1986, maybe around Jan - Feb - I got a call from someone at the Way Nash, then my wife got a call, and the people were asking if and what we knew a
outandabout
I remember how people said that the BOD hadn't "repented" or "gone back to the Word" or some such. I didn't know what they were talking about because no one would be specific.
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Twinky
There is therefore now great condemnation to them that are in The Way Ministry.
Always.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Glad to see this thread brought back up to the top...had fun reading it.
It's hard for me to imagine how anyone ever took Geer seriously...outside of cult indoctrination that is. Seems that after the cornfield preacher was finally planted under the fountain, his most ardent disciples started playing musical chairs with the tools of group think methodology. The only problem was that when the music finally stopped, there were no more chairs to sit in. The end result of course was that those who thought they could pull it off started their own game with the portion of the cult that they could sneak out the back door with and rename.
Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice and it's time for a complete mental overhaul at a rehab clinic. The real losers of this experiential mind f**k are the ones who are still doing the back stroke in the septic tank of delusional mental illness. God is personal to each of us and shame and disgrace upon all those who turn it into a business.
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Rocky
Preach it, Brother Groucho!
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Raf
The Geer defection took place at exactly the right time to capitalize on the enthusiasm of a believer like me, a newbie who could show he was not beholden to a cult by breaking away from it (right into the arms of the same cult, when you think about it).
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GrouchoMarxJr
I hear ya Raf...I can see how a newbie might gravitate towards Geer for the reasons you state...but for the most part, twi, at that time, consisted mostly of folks who had been around for years...most of them who knew Geer, didn't like him at all. He was mean spirited, arrogant, and aloof. I'm amazed, looking back, that anyone really took him seriously. He had the bot wetting their collective pants...most of the rank and file exited during all the drama...I knew Geer was a nut case from day one...and thankfully, so did most everyone else.
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excathedra
why did veepig like him? as if i didn't disrespect veepee enough already
when i buzzed veepee at HQ to report that nutgeer for destroying people, veepee didn't deny it - he just screamed at me
then when we flew one of those destroyed corps grads over from britain, veepee, donnie, craig, finnegan.... no one had the balls to defend him against psychogeer
broke my heart and my friend's heart so much worse
some of these people should pay a price for hurting destroying lives
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Grace Valerie Claire
Twinky, please honey, be careful what you write in your posts!! Â I almost fainted when I read what you wrote!! Â Bull's eye!! Â I am very sure there is a lot of condemnation for those in Way World. Â But, why do people stay, knowing how twisted the organization is? Â There are probably very good reasons, at least to those who remain, why they stay. Â But I fear that by remaining, they will never see how great life can be outside of TWI. Â Myself, I could never live with all the condemnation I would accumulate by being in, and around The Way. Â From what I have read at GSC, TWI condemns people who leave, or who have left. Â How ungodly, and evil can an organization be? Â I would constantly condemn myself, and others if I lived in a state of constant condemnation. Â But I choose to leave years ago, and have never regretted it.
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Grace Valerie Claire
I don't think you are being harsh; that is what I thought when I first read it back in 1986(?). Â I thought it was Bull, then and I still think it is Bull!
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Grace Valerie Claire
When I was in TWI back in the 80's, Â that was so true! Â That is one of the many reasons I left in 1988.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Wow!! Â Raf, good post! I left in 1988. Â The Navy sent me to Italy, and when I came back to the USA, I no longer associated with TWI. I am glad that I got out when I did. I think TWI started to implode after VPW died.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Twinky, no matter how many times, I read this quote, I think it was true of TWI back when I was in. (1978-1988.)
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Grace Valerie Claire
Groucho, you are so right honey!! Â Good insight!!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Good post!! Â Personally, I think you were too soft on Geer. Â I read his paper back in 1986(?), and thought it was bunk. In my opinion, it shows how inept Chris was. What a crybaby!! Â BTW, what is Chris doing these days? Â Is he still in Maine? Â Does anyone know about him?
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Grace Valerie Claire
Neither did I!! Â I had no idea back then, how twisted they were. Â I know now, because people here at the GSC, have informed us of all the Trash that happened back in Way World, years ago.
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Grace Valerie Claire
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Grace Valerie Claire
I can't understand that. Â I have heard some of Chris's Gartmore tapes. Â Boring!!!! Â I would not waste my time, or money on anything connected with CG.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Raf, please forgive me if I am wrong, but I thought you were a Corps grad. Â I thought you knew most of the top leadership of TWI personally. Â
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Raf
I'm... flattered?
Nope. Not a Corps Grad. Not even a WOW. Just an avid reader.
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OldSkool
Lucky you Â
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Grace Valerie Claire
Wow!!! Â Raf, I really didn't know that. Â You seem to know so much about TWI; I thought you had graduated from The Corps. Â I went out Wow in 1978-1978. Â My year was terrible!!! Â I took the AC in Rome City in July of 1985. Â I hated it; I thought it was a waste of time and money. Â Oh foolish youth!!
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Grace Valerie Claire
OS, you are so right!! Â My Wow year, 1978-1979, was terrible. Â I froze in Rome City, during the AC. Â For some reason, the air conditioning didn't work right. Â I don't know why it wasn't fixed; perhaps it would a lot of money to have had it fixed. Â I slept through most of the AC, because I had to wrap up in a blanket. Â I slept better in the classes, than I did at night. Â
Â
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Raf
Most of what I know, I know from reading.
My firsthand knowledge extends only to SOME of VF's activities in New York during and after the Geer defection/expulsion, plus some personal memories of ROA 1989 that right now aren't worth a whole heck of a lot to me or to many other people, I'd imagine.
I did have some personal communication with JAL years after TWI, and some further contact with Dubofsky through the magic of the internet.
As for Geer: I only know what he communicated to believers in the USA publicly (teaching tapes, his "Future Conisderations" so-called magazine, etc).
The letter I've called "The Epistle of Chris Geer to the Americans" was written in Nov. 1989 and addressed to subscribers of Gartmore Weekly Tapes and Future Considerations in the USA. It was a letter. An epistle is a letter. I never meant to imply that Geer was elevating his writing to the stature of scripture. I just thought it was funny. I wonder if Paul knew his letters would someday be scripture.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Raf, I know a lot of people dislike VF, Â because he used to be a jerk. Â However, years ago I used to attend his fellowship in the Latham, NY area and I loved it. Â Vince himself has said that he made a lot of mistakes when he was in TWI. Â I believe he probably did, but then so did I. Â Again, I know many people dislike Vince, and they probably have good reasons for doing so. Â However, I have very fond memories of Vince, and think he is great guy!!! Â But, I remember Ralph D. Â I loved hearing Ralph teach; he was so funny!! Â I thought Ralph should have been the one to lead TWI after VPW died. Â Ralph didn't take S--t from anyone, but he didn't take advantage of anyone either. Â I know from reading the GSC, that he was badly treated by TWI, before he left. Â I always thought Ralph was one of the few bright spots, in TWI. Â I hope he is doing well these days; he is a great guy!!!
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Raf
I hear he doesn't worry a lot because he prefers to be happy. Can't blame him.
I don't know what VF was like before 1989, but I can honestly say that he became a very humble man who took his faith seriously.Â
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