I experienced isolation in a whole different context during the 4 years I spent aboard a submarine. But it was RADICALLY different! Nobody cared what you thought as long as you could do your job reliably enough to keep from killing us all. We entertained ourselves with extravaganzas of thought. It was vastly more free and fun than college was. One time I volunteered to winter over in Antarctica, but they wouldn't let me go, because they said I was too highly trained.
I agree with every one of the criticisms posted on this thread of the form of isolation practiced on us by TWI, especially waysider's!
The indoctrination and subversion in twi would not be possible without ISOLATION.
When I was first introduced to twi in the 70's......twig fellowships were three times a week. Under the guise of "undershepherding" John (the guy who witnessed to me) would call me everyday to 'see how I was doing.' Later, I learned that this was a twi-policy to help boost pfal class rosters and recruitment.
And, in pfal......wierwille challenged the students to put away all their reading material for the next three months and delve into his class material and books. Did wierwille exhort me to go to my heavenly Father in daily prayer? Nope. Did wierwille encourage me to take daily steps to ensure that Jesus was mediator and lord of my life. Nope.
Every class was simply a steppingstone for ANOTHER class......and into the belly of the 'whale.'
Class after class ----> and then, go WOW. Get away from your friends. Leave your home town.
Was this wierwille's way of stealthily introducing MORE isolation?
What constitutes isolation?
1) Separation from family, friends, education, career path, social network
2) Separation from other sources to dissolve critical thinking
3) Programs, like WOW and Way Corps, that insulate from all outside influence
4) Corps/Staff -- all news was filtered thru twi's filters of spirituality
5) Major Events in twi scheduled over Thanksgiving and Easter weekends
6) All holidays were tweaked by twi to errode family connections & memories
7) An Us-versus-Them mindset was foundational in many twi teachings
8) Buzz words like "earthly family" were deliberate and biting
9) Twi's use of "true household" was a counterfeit replacement
10) Relationships are built over time......and twi derailed family, spouse, child bonds
Isolation is a powerful weapon. Strategically and stealthily, twi intervened in one's youthful relationships and expanding parameters. At those critical junctures in life's development, twi's isolation was very disruptive and derailed the lives of thousands. Far more than lending a helping hand, recruiting was their objective.
The corps indoctrination was, often, from dawn to dusk......to nightowl.
Not only were we structured into a work/study program throughout the day......but 'household responsibilities' each month. Whether that was dishroom detail, dining room setup, classroom setup, campfire and outdoor setup, ushering duties, etc......there was very little time to process anything. The indoctrination was complete. The ISOLATION OF ONE-SIDED INDOCTRINATION was inescapable. There were times when many fell asleep during teachings, or mealtime......or simply collapsed into their bed at night.
IMO....twi's micromanagement escalated even further in the 1990's. As hard as that might be to imagine, yes it happened. Detailed schedules were to be filled out. See, no isolation of personal privacy. Twi WANTED in. They wanted to search out any suspicion of debt, doubt, homosexuality, unproductiveness, dissent, etc. Either you fill out those schedules.....or get out you disobedient one.
Corps meeting phone hookups.....250-mile radius to attend sunday teachings.......way mag subscriptions mandatory.....etc.
The dirty little secret........twi ISOLATES followers and then, years later threatens to ISOLATE them from the group.
Yeah, once you've cut off all support systems and family and submitted to twi, they are in a position to ISOLATE you.
The old switcheroo........they know how ISOLATED you'd be without them and use it as a club over you.
It's a dirty little game twi plays.
Not difficult to imagine at all. I remember in the later 1980s, after having made the break from TWI, but still being interested in fellowshipping with the people who left at the same time -- but before offshoots had really developed into any kind of semi-sophisticated system. At that time, I vividly recall imagining that twi would become a legalistic organization. That's the word I remember using -- legalistic. But I thought it would take longer to get there. Of course, I had not, by then, really come to grips with how outrageously mental Martindale was. So, I missed the time frame and didn't really put my imagination into developing the details, but 25 years ago, I saw it heading in that direction.
And there is no question that your description of the social isolation is very much on the mark.
quote: The indoctrination and subversion in twi would not be possible without ISOLATION.
Well, this isolation would not be possible without OSTRACIZATION, from family, friends, etc. who were willingly cooperative. That door swings both ways.
quote: The indoctrination and subversion in twi would not be possible without ISOLATION.
Well, this isolation would not be possible without OSTRACIZATION, from family, friends, etc. who were willingly cooperative. That door swings both ways.
quote: Did wierwille encourage me to take daily steps to ensure that Jesus was mediator and lord of my life. Nope.
I beg to differ. He taught us the 5 basics: prayer (including SIT), study the word, fellowship w/ likeminded believers, abs, and witness. Any church does these. What daily steps do you now take that supposedly supercede these 5?
He taught us the 5 basics: prayer (including SIT), study the word, fellowship w/ likeminded believers, abs, and witness. Any church does these. What daily steps do you now take that supposedly supercede these 5?
"Be not unequally yoked together with unbelievers" was used like a mantra wherever I went in TWI. Of course, it was ripped out of context and we slapped an arrogant attitude on it to justify discarding people like kleenex.
Some of the isolation was due in part to the highly conditional friendships we were encouraged to develop with the idea that we were to "shake the dust off our heels" and "move on" if they didn't take the class.
quote: The indoctrination and subversion in twi would not be possible without ISOLATION.
Well, this isolation would not be possible without OSTRACIZATION, from family, friends, etc. who were willingly cooperative. That door swings both ways.
Were you ever into Fellow-Laborers?
How about the corps program?
Were you a staffer at a root locale?
Yeah.....I get your "willingly cooperative" comment, John.
Back in the mid-70s......twi's corps brochure and sign-up application were vague 'learn to serve God' concepts.
You see, John......that's how INDOCTRINATION works. It hides behind nebulous goals on a grand scale.
And your comment, "Any church does this."
Does any church have security patrol 24/7, bodyguards, trained dogs and corps bless patrol during summer camp training?
Sure, every 'church' has a person who crawls under the mainstage prior to their event searching for bombs!
sure, every main pastor speaks suspiciously of FBI agents on their grounds.....like wierwille did at roa.
Twi's ISOLATION......especially corps/staff/hq projected an affront to the 'outside world.'
ISOLATION and TWI go together like peanut butter and jelly.
Does any church have security patrol 24/7, bodyguards, trained dogs and corps bless patrol during summer camp training?
Sure, every 'church' has a person who crawls under the mainstage prior to their event searching for bombs!
sure, every main pastor speaks suspiciously of FBI agents on their grounds.....like wierwille did at roa.
Twi's ISOLATION......especially corps/staff/hq projected an affront to the 'outside world.'
Other than SIT, churches DO the 5 basics. As for the security measures, I bet that crystal cathedral of Robert Schuller's has security. TWI had enemies. That's why you have security. I never felt isolated in twi; just ostracized from the extremists who targeted us and whoever they got to. I said recently in another thread that you don't need to have that many people in your group to feel appreciated. As long as I felt appreciated, I did not feel isolated. Yeah, I'll bet those FBI agents felt REALLY isolated. Stuck spying on a bunch of Christians. Tough work.
Does any church have security patrol 24/7, bodyguards, trained dogs and corps bless patrol during summer camp training?
Let me *attempt* to translate this into what universities are doing.
Trained dogs? no. That is left to the State Police, the best I know..
bless patrol? Ah... that is largely *it*.
it's not "bless patrol".. it's "parking control".
they (at least CMU) does their best to regulate lawful parking. How does this help? It makes it VERY DIFFICULT for extraneous drug dealers, and the like access to university property. It's cheap, and might I add effective prevention of crimes that might be. This went as far as to me.. somebody.. no idea who. copied my particular parking code.. and I thought I might be facing the Spanish Inquisition..
essentially, drug dealers and the like would have to proceed on University property on foot.
So I have no idea whatever came of this. All I know is my parking permit remained intact on my window. I didn't rip it off and sell copies of it to anybody..
Sure, every 'church' has a person who crawls under the mainstage prior to their event searching for bombs!
sure, every main pastor speaks suspiciously of FBI agents on their grounds.....like wierwille did at roa.
Twi's ISOLATION......especially corps/staff/hq projected an affront to the 'outside world.'
I've read stuff about Grateful Dead concerts.. the "big problem" was not being able to screen out cops on the way in..
Just because you didn't "feel" isolated doesn't mean you weren't, John.
It's often the long term effect it has on a person that is so damaging, rather than what the person "feels" like at the moment.
This sounds like some hell fire fundamentalist preacher telling me I'm a sinner no matter what I feel like. You might buy time with that kind of argument except, I've been into this for 36 years now. I felt a lot more isolated being a drug person than I ever did being a twi trained believer.
Does any church have security patrol 24/7, bodyguards, trained dogs and corps bless patrol during summer camp training?
Sure, every 'church' has a person who crawls under the mainstage prior to their event searching for bombs!
sure, every main pastor speaks suspiciously of FBI agents on their grounds.....like wierwille did at roa.
Twi's ISOLATION......especially corps/staff/hq projected an affront to the 'outside world.'
Other than SIT, churches DO the 5 basics. As for the security measures, I bet that crystal cathedral of Robert Schuller's has security. TWI had enemies. That's why you have security. I never felt isolated in twi; just ostracized from the extremists who targeted us and whoever they got to. I said recently in another thread that you don't need to have that many people in your group to feel appreciated. As long as I felt appreciated, I did not feel isolated. Yeah, I'll bet those FBI agents felt REALLY isolated. Stuck spying on a bunch of Christians. Tough work.
Perhaps you meant to say, "I ASSUME" that Robert Schuller's Chrystal Cathedral has security.
But I would ask whether you exercised any level of diligence to verify whether or to what extent your assumption had any validity.
This sounds like some hell fire fundamentalist preacher telling me I'm a sinner no matter what I feel like. You might buy time with that kind of argument except, I've been into this for 36 years now. I felt a lot more isolated being a drug person than I ever did being a twi trained believer.
John......you and I are talking about two different things. I am NOT talking about feelings. I am describing the underlying
concepts that twi uses *to their advantage* to subvert and indoctrinate followers.
And, yeah.....I can see your point about feeling MORE ALONE....ie isolated....being a drug person than being a TWI TRAINED believer.
In your own words, and your 36 years of involvement......what you relate to is commonly referred to as INSTITUTIONALIZED. Your
surroundings frame who you are. And, that's my point: indoctrination via isolation does just that.
A 'twi trained' believer as opposed to a 'trinity trained' believer, which is what churches crank out.
Of course......the straw man argument
Definition: "To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position."
And, in pfal......wierwille challenged the students to put away all their reading material for the next three months and delve into his class material and books. Did wierwille exhort me to go to my heavenly Father in daily prayer? Nope. Did wierwille encourage me to take daily steps to ensure that Jesus was mediator and lord of my life. Nope.
Never really thought about that, but you're more or less right.
I recall the class/VPW said to put away other reading matter for three months, and concentrate on reading the epistles (not PFAL material) - though twig leaders would encourage reading the Blue Book, and other PFAL books.
We were discouraged from reading the gospels (relating to a bygone time and not relevant to us in this administration - gag). The OT wasn't mentioned as reading material for this three month period.
Having put away secular material for 3 months - there was always too much else to do, classes to be at, etc, to get into any other secular material.
As regards prayer, we were encourage to SIT but that's about all. No recommendation for a daily time of prayer and reflection. "Meditate on the word" became "read" the word, not think about it, especially in relation to other materials or scripture passages. Oh, and read what the PFAL books say about it.
We were specifically discouraged from "the Lord's Prayer" - isn't one of the Listening with a Purpose questions, "Why can we not pray this prayer?" - because our forgiveness is not dependent on us forgiving others. There was no encouragement in thinking of the heart of this prayer - the holiness/hallowedness of God; the seeking after His will coming into effect (despite the motto which I won't repeat); no acknowledgment of God as our daily provider - just as Him being a provider on demand of parking places, money and other trinkets; no acknowledgment of His awesomeness.
The "Lord's Prayer" isn't and never was supposed to be a mantra - but an acknowledgment of God's greatness, His majesty, His power and His glory. And we would do well to remember that, with all humility. Then, we have a proper place to fit the prayer in Eph 1:15ff. Without the latter becoming some sort of ego trip.
While I'm about it - and this is a bit - we all know Rom 10:9-10 - but the preceding verses relate back to the blessings and cursings of Deut 28-30, where a clear choice is laid out for the believers of that time. I've met Way "ministers" (allegedly ordained) that have never even read Deut 30!!! The way The Way thought they could get us "born again" and confessing Jesus as Lord is so facile that it's a wonder anyone got helped - there are some posters here who recognize what a dreadful place they had come from and lived the "cursings" part.
Choose you this day [now] .... Your decision, people, individuals. Choose, after carefully thinking about.
It's the goodness of God that leads us to repentance - not the effusiveness of PFAL - did people have time to reflect upon and contemplate God's goodness? Or were they railroaded into some sort of confession of - whatever - and scared into some version of SIT?
Present a facile image of Jesus the Christ, don't give time to think about anything or make a considered choice, scare 'em or bully 'em into SIT (or scare 'em away from it forever) - and wham! got 'em hooked for life. That old "bait and switch" again.
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waysider
It's like a boot camp you can never graduate from.
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skyrider
ISOLATION is used to stealthily indoctrinate the follower.
Years later, ISOLATION is used as a submission club.
Either one walks in lockstep with twi......or the bully club comes out.
If you still dissent, more confrontation...to follow their policies.
If you STILL dissent.........demotions and public castigation.
In the end, ISOLATION is used as the ultimate to sully your character, your reputation.
Yep......mark and avoid is their way of saying you cause division and strife.
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Steve Lortz
I experienced isolation in a whole different context during the 4 years I spent aboard a submarine. But it was RADICALLY different! Nobody cared what you thought as long as you could do your job reliably enough to keep from killing us all. We entertained ourselves with extravaganzas of thought. It was vastly more free and fun than college was. One time I volunteered to winter over in Antarctica, but they wouldn't let me go, because they said I was too highly trained.
I agree with every one of the criticisms posted on this thread of the form of isolation practiced on us by TWI, especially waysider's!
Love,
Steve
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Rocky
Not difficult to imagine at all. I remember in the later 1980s, after having made the break from TWI, but still being interested in fellowshipping with the people who left at the same time -- but before offshoots had really developed into any kind of semi-sophisticated system. At that time, I vividly recall imagining that twi would become a legalistic organization. That's the word I remember using -- legalistic. But I thought it would take longer to get there. Of course, I had not, by then, really come to grips with how outrageously mental Martindale was. So, I missed the time frame and didn't really put my imagination into developing the details, but 25 years ago, I saw it heading in that direction.
And there is no question that your description of the social isolation is very much on the mark.
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johniam
quote: The indoctrination and subversion in twi would not be possible without ISOLATION.
Well, this isolation would not be possible without OSTRACIZATION, from family, friends, etc. who were willingly cooperative. That door swings both ways.
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waysider
My family never ostracized me.
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johniam
quote: Did wierwille encourage me to take daily steps to ensure that Jesus was mediator and lord of my life. Nope.
I beg to differ. He taught us the 5 basics: prayer (including SIT), study the word, fellowship w/ likeminded believers, abs, and witness. Any church does these. What daily steps do you now take that supposedly supercede these 5?
quote: My family never ostracized me.
Good for you.
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waysider
1. SIT....see current thread
2. study the word.....as defined by Way Theology
3. fellowship w/ likeminded believers.....self imposed isolation
4. abs...provide financial support for a corrupt organization (TWI)
5. witness...recruit unwitting converts into the MLM structured fold
(Pg#2/W&U...."The basic reason we witness is to help people into the classes on Power for Abundant Living...)
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OldSkool
Yep - that about debunks the 5 basics formula.
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geisha779
"Be not unequally yoked together with unbelievers" was used like a mantra wherever I went in TWI. Of course, it was ripped out of context and we slapped an arrogant attitude on it to justify discarding people like kleenex.
Some of the isolation was due in part to the highly conditional friendships we were encouraged to develop with the idea that we were to "shake the dust off our heels" and "move on" if they didn't take the class.
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skyrider
Were you ever into Fellow-Laborers?
How about the corps program?
Were you a staffer at a root locale?
Yeah.....I get your "willingly cooperative" comment, John.
Back in the mid-70s......twi's corps brochure and sign-up application were vague 'learn to serve God' concepts.
You see, John......that's how INDOCTRINATION works. It hides behind nebulous goals on a grand scale.
And your comment, "Any church does this."
Does any church have security patrol 24/7, bodyguards, trained dogs and corps bless patrol during summer camp training?
Sure, every 'church' has a person who crawls under the mainstage prior to their event searching for bombs!
sure, every main pastor speaks suspiciously of FBI agents on their grounds.....like wierwille did at roa.
Twi's ISOLATION......especially corps/staff/hq projected an affront to the 'outside world.'
ISOLATION and TWI go together like peanut butter and jelly.
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chockfull
I agree with you 100% on the indoctrination topic skyrider.
It is a psychological tactic. It is a cult tactic. It is evil. It is absolutely how TWI operates, and the fear it breeds is its currency.
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johniam
quote:
And your comment, "Any church does this."
Does any church have security patrol 24/7, bodyguards, trained dogs and corps bless patrol during summer camp training?
Sure, every 'church' has a person who crawls under the mainstage prior to their event searching for bombs!
sure, every main pastor speaks suspiciously of FBI agents on their grounds.....like wierwille did at roa.
Twi's ISOLATION......especially corps/staff/hq projected an affront to the 'outside world.'
Other than SIT, churches DO the 5 basics. As for the security measures, I bet that crystal cathedral of Robert Schuller's has security. TWI had enemies. That's why you have security. I never felt isolated in twi; just ostracized from the extremists who targeted us and whoever they got to. I said recently in another thread that you don't need to have that many people in your group to feel appreciated. As long as I felt appreciated, I did not feel isolated. Yeah, I'll bet those FBI agents felt REALLY isolated. Stuck spying on a bunch of Christians. Tough work.
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Ham
In mathematics one could argue that this is true..
about 90 percent of the time I can show students some real world justification as to why it is what we are learning..
where does it end.. the real question is how far do you really want to go..
I've never heard anyone claim their lives have been derailed by previous math or chemistry or physics classes, though.
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waysider
Just because you didn't "feel" isolated doesn't mean you weren't, John.
It's often the long term effect it has on a person that is so damaging, rather than what the person "feels" like at the moment.
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Ham
Let me *attempt* to translate this into what universities are doing.
Trained dogs? no. That is left to the State Police, the best I know..
bless patrol? Ah... that is largely *it*.
it's not "bless patrol".. it's "parking control".
they (at least CMU) does their best to regulate lawful parking. How does this help? It makes it VERY DIFFICULT for extraneous drug dealers, and the like access to university property. It's cheap, and might I add effective prevention of crimes that might be. This went as far as to me.. somebody.. no idea who. copied my particular parking code.. and I thought I might be facing the Spanish Inquisition..
essentially, drug dealers and the like would have to proceed on University property on foot.
So I have no idea whatever came of this. All I know is my parking permit remained intact on my window. I didn't rip it off and sell copies of it to anybody..
I've read stuff about Grateful Dead concerts.. the "big problem" was not being able to screen out cops on the way in..
just saying..
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johniam
This sounds like some hell fire fundamentalist preacher telling me I'm a sinner no matter what I feel like. You might buy time with that kind of argument except, I've been into this for 36 years now. I felt a lot more isolated being a drug person than I ever did being a twi trained believer.
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Rocky
Perhaps you meant to say, "I ASSUME" that Robert Schuller's Chrystal Cathedral has security.
But I would ask whether you exercised any level of diligence to verify whether or to what extent your assumption had any validity.
You could always call them and ask.
Chrystal Cathedral
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skyrider
John......you and I are talking about two different things. I am NOT talking about feelings. I am describing the underlying
concepts that twi uses *to their advantage* to subvert and indoctrinate followers.
And, yeah.....I can see your point about feeling MORE ALONE....ie isolated....being a drug person than being a TWI TRAINED believer.
In your own words, and your 36 years of involvement......what you relate to is commonly referred to as INSTITUTIONALIZED. Your
surroundings frame who you are. And, that's my point: indoctrination via isolation does just that.
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skyrider
John....care to elaborate on being a TWI TRAINED believer?
I doubt whether another thousand comments by me could have stated it any better than what you, yourself,
have self-described. Sounds like the indoctrination is complete.
Wasn't it Mike who, years ago, described Jesus coming back to earth holding a PFAL book?
.
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johniam
A 'twi trained' believer as opposed to a 'trinity trained' believer, which is what churches crank out.
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skyrider
Of course......the straw man argument
Definition: "To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position."
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skyrider
Maybe, the description that fits is......"twig-trained follower."
A *TWI TRAINED BELIEVER* would, more appropriately, have enrolled in Fellow-Laborers, Way Corps, and even Staff.
During my eight years of corps/staff.....wierwille was very outspoken about those truly committed to twi training
via corps and staff involvement. And, Rosalie has sent out promotional snippets of staff employment for those
advanced class grads to reach greater spiritual potential.
Here's the irony......even today, after all these years when I've talked with CURRENT TWI-FOLLOWERS.....when we
get down to specifics and trustee deceptions (etc. etc)...these current followers ADMIT that they DON'T GO TO HQ
AND COULD CARE LESS WHAT THEY DO.
I'm not exaggerating these details.
Four current twi-followers have told me.....THEY DON'T GO TO HQ, yet their twigs are a safe haven.
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Twinky
Never really thought about that, but you're more or less right.
I recall the class/VPW said to put away other reading matter for three months, and concentrate on reading the epistles (not PFAL material) - though twig leaders would encourage reading the Blue Book, and other PFAL books.
We were discouraged from reading the gospels (relating to a bygone time and not relevant to us in this administration - gag). The OT wasn't mentioned as reading material for this three month period.
Having put away secular material for 3 months - there was always too much else to do, classes to be at, etc, to get into any other secular material.
As regards prayer, we were encourage to SIT but that's about all. No recommendation for a daily time of prayer and reflection. "Meditate on the word" became "read" the word, not think about it, especially in relation to other materials or scripture passages. Oh, and read what the PFAL books say about it.
We were specifically discouraged from "the Lord's Prayer" - isn't one of the Listening with a Purpose questions, "Why can we not pray this prayer?" - because our forgiveness is not dependent on us forgiving others. There was no encouragement in thinking of the heart of this prayer - the holiness/hallowedness of God; the seeking after His will coming into effect (despite the motto which I won't repeat); no acknowledgment of God as our daily provider - just as Him being a provider on demand of parking places, money and other trinkets; no acknowledgment of His awesomeness.
The "Lord's Prayer" isn't and never was supposed to be a mantra - but an acknowledgment of God's greatness, His majesty, His power and His glory. And we would do well to remember that, with all humility. Then, we have a proper place to fit the prayer in Eph 1:15ff. Without the latter becoming some sort of ego trip.
While I'm about it - and this is a bit
- we all know Rom 10:9-10 - but the preceding verses relate back to the blessings and cursings of Deut 28-30, where a clear choice is laid out for the believers of that time. I've met Way "ministers" (allegedly ordained) that have never even read Deut 30!!! The way The Way thought they could get us "born again" and confessing Jesus as Lord is so facile that it's a wonder anyone got helped - there are some posters here who recognize what a dreadful place they had come from and lived the "cursings" part.
Choose you this day [now] .... Your decision, people, individuals. Choose, after carefully thinking about.
It's the goodness of God that leads us to repentance - not the effusiveness of PFAL - did people have time to reflect upon and contemplate God's goodness? Or were they railroaded into some sort of confession of - whatever - and scared into some version of SIT?
Present a facile image of Jesus the Christ, don't give time to think about anything or make a considered choice, scare 'em or bully 'em into SIT (or scare 'em away from it forever) - and wham! got 'em hooked for life. That old "bait and switch" again.
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