SIT, TIP, Prophecy and Confession
SIT, TIP, Confession
39 members have voted
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1. What do you think of the inspirational manifestations/"gifts"?
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I've done it, they are real and work the way TWI describes14
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I've done it, they are real and work the way CES/STFI describes1
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I've done it, they are real and work the way Pentecostals/non-denominationals describe2
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I faked it to fit in, but I believe they are real.1
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I faked it to fit in. I believe it's possible, but not sure if it's real.6
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I faked it. I think we all faked it.15
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chockfull
Raf very honestly my behavior on this thread earlier caused me to look in the mirror and re-evaluate some things. I also was not pleased with the reflection. I'm thankful for the personal growth tha
geisha779
No? You really kind of are if you demand Raf prove his point....funny how that works. How about any reasonable standard? I have to wonder, as I have inadvertently strung two words together that Freud
Steve Lortz
I believe that SIT is real, but not what it is described as in either Pentecostalism or TWI. I believe that SIT is always thanksgiving (giving proper credit) to God. I believe there were lots of times
Ham
I dunno. I don't "despise prophecies" or some such.. it's just.. positive, continuously repeated words of affirmation do not necessarily equal prophecy..
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TrustAndObey
I think you are confusing the distinctions in the word "all".. It had zero to do with "heteros" or "allos" (That's "another" vs "others"), and while VP screwed up by calling it "all without distinction vs all without exception", we all got the jist.. The word "all" in Greek and most languages can either be confined to a specific group or taken for all anytime everywhere.. The distinction should usually be noted in context, but not always. And with the section in Corinthians, the context is what? The gathering? Am I correct?
If so, then how would "no one "within the gathering" understanding" be an abnormal understanding to this verse?
From my viewpoint, to say that it MUST be absolute doesn't quite fit.. Could it, maybe.. But it would be like saying the verse about "nothing being impossible for you to do" is absolutely anything and has no caveats or smaller group of possibilities just cause the verse doesn't state it (And it also uses the exact same "no one/man/thing" Greek word)
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Ham
I dunno.. to make such a distinction, one would almost have to time travel back to ancient Greece, learn the language..
modern analysis is fine.. but limited I think..
sometimes it looks for a pattern that is simply not there..
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Ham
anybody know how these words .. sailed into modern usage? I mean current usage.. I think there is a current distinction between Chairos and Kronos.
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Raf
Which words?
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Ham
allos and heteros. Heteros tongues.. is there really a distinction between what they call simply different, by modern interpretation (allos)
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Raf
I don't see where heteros and allos even come into play in this discussion. Is there a verse someone is pointing to where that distinction is important?
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Ham
Kinds of tongues. Different kinds of tongues.. the greek word was heteros..
different, or of a distinct kind..
wierwillian advocates demand heteros to mean something it very well may have not meant..
it really is on topic, as you wish. :)
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Raf
Ah, of course.
To another, diverse kinds of tongues.
It's still languages, no matter how you slice it. It's different from the language of the speaker. It's not different from human language.
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Ham
and I could not agree more..
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Raf
By the way, "different" kinds of tongues is not the word heteros OR allos. It's in italics. Heteros is in the term "to another," which is a reference to either the people receiving the gift or the profit of the manifestation, depending on your theology. It has nothing to do with the language.
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cman
in reference to 'kinds'
chapter 15 is loaded
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
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WordWolf
Unless, of course, my point stands.
I'm curious. I'm going to post it again.
Other than chockfull, can everyone else SEE my point?
I'm not asking if you AGREE- just if you SEE it.
You can see it and strongly disagree, of course.
I just want to confirm my communication is effective.
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Here's the KJV of the verse.
I Corinthians 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
The phrase that's critical to chockfull's claim is
"for no man understandeth him."
The problem with this is that a cursory check of a Greek Interlinear will show the last word of the phrase
was completely added. It should be in italics.
That's why the NASB doesn't add the word.
Here's the NASB of the verse.
I Corinthians 14:2
For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
Does adding the word change the meaning?
It might.
If the meaning of the phrase is
"One speaks in a tongue and nobody who hears him can understand the tongue",
then the meaning is retained.
Of course, if that meaning is retained,
we have a rather obvious problem that now we have personal anecdotes we're supposed
to believe that directly contradict Scripture-
where someone spoke in a tongue and someone or some people understood.
However,
AND THIS IS MY POINT,
if the meaning of the phrase is
"One speaks in a tongue and can't understand the tongue"
and that has nothing whatsoever to do with anyone else,
then a translator added a word and completely changed the meaning.
I Corinthians 14:2 (NASB)
For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
One speaking in a tongue, inasmuch as it's to God and not men, cannot possibly understand what he himself is
speaking-it's to God. However, it is mysteries in his spirit and directed to God.
That's one way of looking at it. And it conflicts with personal theology of some,
but doesn't produce a conflict with any instance in Scripture,
nor does it conflict with personal anecdotes related so far,
whether or not they happened exactly as believed.
So, everyone else,
whether or not you agree with me,
can you see what I'm saying and how someone can get there,
whether or not it's where you'd go?
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Ham
give me a few moments, friend.. :) Quite intensive..
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cman
so you are saying that the verse says
only the one speaking in a tongue, can't understand
?
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Ham
the one speaking, not understanding what is spoken.. this makes the perfect mathematical game.. I mean, outsiders looking for a pattern of sorts..
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Raf
I think the context is clear that neither the speaker nor the audience understands the LANGUAGE that is brought forth. I think the context is clear that the audience being spoken of is a typical worship service. I think the verse is clear that what is produced IS a language. No, it's not a major point. Rather, it's a given. Speaking in languages produces languages. The verse cannot be "absolute" and apply to all gatherings, or it would contradict Acts 2. Modern tongues speakers cannot believe it is "absolute" or applies to all gatherings, or they would be compelled to dispense with their precious anecdotes. But to believe that God confounds linguists so that they can't detect languages in glossolalia is to introduce an element of hocus pocus that is foreign to the text. The bottom line is that SIT remains, at its core, a very testable claim. If you're producing a language, then you're doing what the Word promises. If you're not, then you're doing something else.
You're doing something else.
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cman
yes we got your point of view
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Raf
I answered a specific question that you asked about what the verse In question is saying, and I applied it to the context of this thread. No need for you to get snippy about it, cman.
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cman
not snippy at all
that's just the way you are taking things lately
you keep trying to keep this thread about you
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Raf
I keep trying to return the thread to the topic. I answered your question with an on topic response. You answered with a patronizing dismissal that did not contribute to the discussion but instead made it personal. So I ask you to please stop.
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cman
o hell, get over yourself,
i'll post whatever i see fit to post
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cman
if you understand tongues it's not tongues any more
of course it's a friggin language
the language - the tongue of the spirit
hung up on the word language or somethin here
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Raf
Imagine that.
Listen, cman, you are being unnecessarily confrontational and deliberately rude. I'm asking you politely to knock it off. You are obviously capable of staying on topic without making things personal. I ask that you continue on that course.
Yes, I am hung up on the word language. Why that should be controversial, I have no idea. Manufactured excuses as to why language suddenly doesn't mean language anymore don't impress me as easily as they seem to impress others. If God promised to give me something that was indistinguishable from its counterfeit, I'd feel a little let down.
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