SIT, TIP, Prophecy and Confession
SIT, TIP, Confession
39 members have voted
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1. What do you think of the inspirational manifestations/"gifts"?
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I've done it, they are real and work the way TWI describes14
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I've done it, they are real and work the way CES/STFI describes1
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I've done it, they are real and work the way Pentecostals/non-denominationals describe2
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I faked it to fit in, but I believe they are real.1
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I faked it to fit in. I believe it's possible, but not sure if it's real.6
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I faked it. I think we all faked it.15
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chockfull
Raf very honestly my behavior on this thread earlier caused me to look in the mirror and re-evaluate some things. I also was not pleased with the reflection. I'm thankful for the personal growth tha
geisha779
No? You really kind of are if you demand Raf prove his point....funny how that works. How about any reasonable standard? I have to wonder, as I have inadvertently strung two words together that Freud
Steve Lortz
I believe that SIT is real, but not what it is described as in either Pentecostalism or TWI. I believe that SIT is always thanksgiving (giving proper credit) to God. I believe there were lots of times
Raf
Something else I find interesting: I don't recall if it was this thread or another one that explored the same issues a few years back, but I know someone told a story about faking the interpretation or prophecy and getting busted by the class or fellowship coordinator. Something along the lines of, "you faked that, didn't you?" Mr. Coordinator Man probably looked SOOOOO in tune with God when he recognized the fabrication, and the speaker was duly chastised.
Try to see this from my perspective and appreciate the humor: The coordinator could say "you faked that, didn't you?" to ANY speaker at ANY meeting at ANY time and be right.
How much of a reinforcement is it to you, then, when you are at a meeting and the coordinator spots a fake, lovingly reproves, then turns to you; you SIT and interpret, and Mr. Coordinator Man doesn't call you out! Hallelujah! God, who told Mr. Coordinator Man that Johnny Jumpup faked it, was silent when you interpreted. Yours must have been genuine!
Your heart is in the right place. You're trying to do God's will. You sure as heck don't WANT to fake it. And God is calling out fakers in your presence! So when He does not call you out, that's your verification, your authentication. You didn't fake it because if you did, God would have told Mr. Coordinator Man, who would have told you.
Reinforced self-deception?
Yes, I recognize that I am DEEP into "you can't prove it" territory. I'm not trying to prove it. I know I faked it. I know others did. I'm coming clean. I invite others to. But there is no logical, Biblical way to suggest that everyone's in the same boat, so I won't push it beyond expressing my thought on the matter.
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chockfull
Trying to keep my splinter groups straight. Isn't CES the one where we had like the dueling catfight visions of supposed "discerning of spirits" revelation between Graser's wife and John Lynn's 2nd ex-wife?
"I saw a snake, and it had your face." "I saw a hobo, and it was you".
Then there was like this "prophetic council" established where all the men around refused to throw water on these cats, ending up in Lynn's divorce, Graser's kicking out, and the org basically falling apart?
Somehow all that doesn't inspire a lot of confidence for going with their version of SIT, interpretation, prophecy. But hey, maybe that's just me.
And who knows, maybe "John Lynn v.3 My Face Looks Like a Muppet" will again gain traction. :biglaugh:
Now there's something that I can get on board with. I can hear the messages now:
"I the Lord Thy God hate stealing. I even made up a commandment. All those books on your bookshelf, where the author stole his material from others? Um, yeah. I don't like that".
"I God, Your Heavenly Father, created the heavens and earth in 7 days. And, I did it without micromanagement. Or boring Sunday sessions of reading cue cards".
"There verily will be those that come to you with their noses in the air, looking down them at you. They will pretend to know what's best for you. They are fools. Don't listen to them. They need to clean up their own cr@p, and read those scripture I inspired about studying to be quiet and doing their own business. I did absolutely nothing to put them in their perceived position of being 'over' you".
I know, not enough KJV English to be authentic. But hey, if we're going to make things up, let's make the messages at least plausible with how God would think about that stuff.
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chockfull
You know, from my perspective trying to prove anything based off the actions of TWI leadership (myself previously included) is kind of like trying to investigate the ink on a $3 bill. Everyone was so wrapped up in their own private version of playing their part in the long con that you're never going to prove anything truthful from that one way or the other.
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Raf
The short answer is yes. CES and STFI are the same group at different times.
Love your proposed prophecies!
Nice analogy.
The difficulty of proving or disproving interpretation and prophecy is that I can't even think of an indisputable way to do it even within TWI, where we KNOW there was fakery and, I think, everyone admits faking it at least once (rare is the one who admits faking it in every instance). I think that's why this thread ended up concentrating on SIT even though all three manifestations are brought up in the thread title.
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geisha779
Yeah, but when all you hear is how righteous and justified you are.....no matter what you do....it kind of takes the sting out of sins like theft, lying, bullying, and controlling abuses. Something was seriously screwy. The meanest of the bunch usually had the most themed prophecy. Righteous, justified, grace covering it all, chosen, special, you name a reason to ignore the obvious and it was usually in there.
Snakes coming out of bodily orifices is one way to go I guess?
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chockfull
Do you think that maybe they were faking, seeing as like it was such a common theme throughout the rest of their lives?
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Raf
"Maybe."
LOLOLOLOLOLOL
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OldSkool
Right. Christian Educational Services (CES) became Spirit and Truth Fellowship International (STFI) - I am not sure why the name changed but basically Schoenheit, Lynn and company were the organizers of this splinter. They got into all the personal prophecy crap chockfull mentioned and wound up with lawsuits flying around in the end of it all. STFI ousted John Lynn in political wrangling that would make the way international proud. John Lynn then gathered his followers from STFI and formed The Living Truth Fellowship (TLTF)
JAL is another story entirely. He shamelessly says he wants God to bring him some bored billionaires to give money to TLTF so he can reach the world with his gospel that he shamelessly calls the truth.
Anyone had enough acronyms from these good balls yet?
Back on topic.
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Raf
This has nothing to do with nothing anymore, but I see that Landry appears to have pulled down his paper from his Web site. I wonder if he got wind of its use in this thread.
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geisha779
Could be you are on to something here. . . . which opens up a whole new line of questions somewhat unrelated to this thread. Just a thought, if VP was teaching true manifesting of gifts of the HS.....and his ministry reflected his theology....why was it inundated with a bunch of sadistic, narcissistic, cheating bullies? Love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control are a far cry from mark and avoid, homo purge, families being torn apart, rampant abortion and sexual abuse.
Just saying.
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OldSkool
If he monitors traffic to his site then probably so. Don't blame him really. I never tell anyone I was in TWI...
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Raf
I'm going to admit being a little surprised that there wasn't a stronger reaction to my thoughts on interpretation and prophecy. What gives? What's the difference? Can't be proof: in all three manifestations I readily admit I can't prove my position. So what are you guys thinking?
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chockfull
Can't prove it either.
Well, as we learned in PFAL, it may say apples on the outside, but that doesn't change the pickles on the inside.
Sometimes, these guys words fit them too well.
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waysider
My thoughts on interpretation and prophesy?
I think if you're only exposed to them on a limited basis, like Wednesday night twig or Sunday night fellowship, they continue to hold some kind of mystique about them. In FellowLaborers, though, we were exposed to them a bare minimum of twice a day and frequently more than that. (It was a two year commitment. Do the math.) To use a familiar expression, "it got old fast". I had my doubts about interpretation and prophesy long before I had doubts about speaking in tongues.
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TrustAndObey
If you asked me, and you didn't, but if God were to inspire thousands of these messages all the time as we met in these groups, if it was really God inspiring these things, you'd think He would be trying to get the truth out.. You know, the truth that most of us lacked until we left TWI. I mean, these messages were from God, right? And it was more important for Him to relate to us that He loved us by sending such a message, rather than showing that love by getting us out of that man made lions den? So God really wasn't interested in helping us to realize the reality of the utter BS that was going on around us. The lies, the hypocrisy, the corporation that wasn't of His doing? Instead of edifying and building us up, we were given a nice uplifting message anyone could fake, while we were left in that hell hole?
I the Lord thy God love thee, and desire for you to walk with these wicked ones. May you enjoy sitting near the seat of scoffers, cause I the lord thy God will not guide you away from them! Be blessed and know that I am God!
Yeah.. doesn't sit well with me either. But you know, it WAS GOD, right, that actually gave those messages all the time that were truly helpful?! Just checking..
I for one will admit, God gave me no such words.
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waysider
When you get honest about it, it's really not much different than a séance, except instead of attempting to channel dear old Aunt Minnie, you're attempting to channel God.
"Oh, but it's real and séances are counterfeit."
Uh huh. <_<
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skyrider
Count me in this category as well.
With wierwille's teachings on the "inspiration manifestations".......it came down to how one DEFINES *inspiration*
and who wouldn't, with much prompting, be 'inspired' to encourage others?
Remember, were not talking revelation here. :B)
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Ham
Who says (all) Seances are counterfiet?
well.. who knows..
First.. I've never seen any manifestation of the dead, living in the after-life.
Except.. for once, and it was only in a dream. Some poor sucker trying to reach some kind of closure on the way out of this existence.. but it was only a dream, or was it?
I couldn't prove this is true any more than somebody proving their "tongue" was really some known language as per Raf's challenge..
Mom hasn't come to me in the middle of the night, neither my long dead father.. maybe they've tried and I'm still too dense to listen
OH.. seances. It just seems to me.. you mix any thing like "worship manifestations" or messages from the dead.. or any other supposed, or unsupposed supernatural manifestation precluded with "now a message from our Sponsor". Followed by a request for "donations" or a sale.. even it it were real, once the greasy price tag is slapped on it, it is transfigured immediately to snake oil..
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waysider
I find it a bit curious that Charles Fox Parham's Apostolic Faith Movement (focused on what we call the manifestations) started gaining traction not long after Spiritualism became in vogue. Parham's ministry bears some striking similarities to that of VPW, as well, aside from the financial aspect.
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waysider
"Spiritualism also differs from occult movements, such as the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn or the contemporary Wiccan covens, in that spirits are not contacted to obtain magical powers (with the exception of power for healing). For example, Madame Blavatsky (1831–91), the founder of the Theosophical Society, only practiced mediumship to contact powerful spirits capable of conferring esoteric knowledge. Blavatsky did not believe these spirits were deceased humans, and held beliefs in reincarnation different from the views of most Spiritualists.[2] Spiritualists at that time viewed Theosophy as unscientific and both occultist and cult-like. Theosophists viewed Spiritualism as unsophisticated and uncosmopolitan.[10]"
(citation: see previous link)
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waysider
Even more damning than hearing the same other people do TIP and Prophesy time after time after time is hearing yourself do it again and again and again and again. I don't think you get that sort of experience just hanging out with the local twig a couple times a week.
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Steve Lortz
I believe I prophesied "for real" a couple of times during the seven years I was involved with TWI.
Only one of the incidents was during a "believers meeting", the other didn't have anything at all to do with any of Wierwille's definitions or occassions. The reason I think each of those incidents was genuine was beacause both times, somebody listening did a modern cultural equivalent of "falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is in you of a truth."
I don't think I ever did a genuine prophesy during the time I was involved with CES. I was just too confused about everything.
One time, toward the end of our involvement with CES, some of us went to the hospital to "minister" to a woman who was in there with cancer. My wife prophesied and said something like, "This is going to hurt for a little while, but it will soon be over. You are coming home to be with me." All the other "believers" in the group were horrified, but a few days later, the woman died.
I've prophesied on a number of occassions since leaving all involvement with all splinter groups. I don't even try to do it. It just happens spontaneously when I'm talking with somebody one-on-one. There is no formula. I usually don't realize I'm doing it until after it's all over. It doesn't surprise me anymore. Sometimes, these days, I become aware that I'm doing it in the middle of speaking. I hear people doing it all over the campus, both students and faculty, and they don't even realize that's what they are doing.
I think prophecy is simply allowing your mouth to speak uncensored out of the abundance of the love of God that is in your heart.
I think God does it at a level below consciouness, but I don't believe in the psychological definition of the "unconscious mind" anymore. I think the Bible uses the word "heart" to refer to the attitudes we have internalized through habit.
All of the TIP clap-trap in TWI, especially at excellors' sessions, was heavy-duty censoring of what came out of our mouths.
Love,
Steve
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geisha779
I was reading some church history about tongues. It supports the idea it was for a sign to unbelievers, but I may be rethinking the way I look at speaking mysteries. It is easy enough to google and the accounts I read some spoke of many believing because of tongues....meaning they understood the words spoken. Worth a look at least.
Writing to the preaching evangelists who were yet living, Eusebius says: "Of those that flourished in these times, Quadratus is said to have been distinguished for his prophetical gifts. There were many others, also, noted in these times who held rank in the apostolic succession... the Holy Spirit also wrought many wonders as yet through them, so that as the Gospel was heard, men in crowds voluntarily and eagerly embraced the true faith with their whole minds." Eusebius AD 100
Make what you will of it. Is he speaking of tongues?
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waysider
Yea, my children, get out and vote.
(Politics from the pulpit)
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