SIT, TIP, Prophecy and Confession

[JavaJane]

Steve and Twinky - my experiences have been similar to yours. Thanks for the insight. And, Steve, I'd love to see that thesis sometime!

[Steve Lortz]

Thanks, Steve. We are respectfully at irreconcilable positions here. I don't think I've been hasty in the extrapolation at all. I can't force anyone to agree with me, but I can invite people to confess and free themselves from years and maybe even decades of reinforced b.s. It's okay to come out, as it were.

It must have been something: what was it?

I reject the premise. It most certainly "must" not have been anything. It was as easy to fake it during the Great Awakening as it was at the end of every session 12.

I think you are right, Raf. If a person was lying, then it's best all the way around for that person to come clean, with her or him self, if with no one else. If I said I was lying, I'd be lying. Luke and Paul were writing about something. I'm inclined to think Wierwille was lying and faking it. I have no reason to believe Luke and Paul were, even if we are radically mistaken about what exactly they were writing of. I have no reason to believe Wesley's and Whitefield's audiences were faking it. I certainly have no reason to believe my brother or my sister or my wife were faking it. I have been diagnosed with the mild form of bipolar mood disorder, and am on medication. I have made a habit of examining my thinking and feelings for symptomatic patterns. I facilitate a regular support group associated with the National Alliance on Mental Illness. I am familiar with what psychotic breaks are all about. Some people ARE deluded, but I don't believe everybody is. I am not faking anything.

The business about holding a picture, getting clear and concerned, "stayed mind" as practiced by TWI, etc., are methods of thought reform (brain washing), and I think they are among the things the New Testament writers called pharmakeia. I think all that was bogus and a waste of time. The way Wierwille associated those things with SIT could certainly put people off of SIT.

I DO heartily and respectfully agree with much of what you are writing. My Pop was a newspaper man, and your attitude toward truth reminds me of his.

Love,

Steve

[Twinky]

Steve and Twinky - my experiences have been similar to yours. Thanks for the insight. And, Steve, I'd love to see that thesis sometime!

I'd love to see it sometime too - and a lot of the other items that Steve references. His posts always make me think, reassess, give better insight into.

Maybe if Steve permits, we could put his thesis on the Documents section so that anyone new here can also have a good think about what SIT means?

[Rocky]

I'd love to see it sometime too - and a lot of the other items that Steve references. His posts always make me think, reassess, give better insight into.

Maybe if Steve permits, we could put his thesis on the Documents section so that anyone new here can also have a good think about what SIT means?

Just so no one misinterprets my intent, it is just to throw my two cents worth into the discussion.

While there clearly is NO new thing under the sun, there are new things to each of us from time to time.

Raf's contribution, to start this thread, was a new way for me to look at the situation.

For me to describe, with any degree of confidence that I would be truthfully analyzing my experience and actions during my

time involved with TWI. (I did not continue the practices of sit, tongues with interpretation and prophecy long after splitting off into loosely affiliated home groups.

Eventually even those grew tedious and repetitive and boring, hence non-productive..

I encountered pentecostal groups prior to twi that tried to lead me into sit, but didn't succeed. Ultimately, I think I tried not to immitate anyone. There may have been some inspiration. but it could also belargely made up.

My bottom line is that I didn't know I was inspired ir making it up.

[johniam]

John Lennon once sang: There ain't no Jesus coming down from the sky / now that I found out I know I can cry.

Rather, there ain't no John Lennon coming out of the Dakotas. Once you've experientially known the power of God. Once you've had prayers answered. You just don't regard the naysayers.

Been in too many believers meetings to count. Sometimes those words are so precisely what I needed to hear I felt like I was walking on air. During my wow training they had us get up at 5:15 am and have a believers meeting. (uh, God, you're breaking up...)

Don't do this while driving????? Marching while chewing gum is harder to do than THAT!

[waysider]

John Lennon once sang: There ain't no Jesus coming down from the sky / now that I found out I know I can cry.

Rather, there ain't no John Lennon coming out of the Dakotas. Once you've experientially known the power of God. Once you've had prayers answered. You just don't regard the naysayers.

.....................................................................................

There's that peaky session #7.

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Been in too many believers meetings to count. Sometimes those words are so precisely what I needed to hear I felt like I was walking on air. During my wow training they had us get up at 5:15 am and have a believers meeting. (uh, God, you're breaking up...)

.........................................................................................

We did that in FellowLabors, as well. We also did it in our nightly twigs. The mystic novelty wears a bit thin after the first couple thousand times.

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Don't do this while driving?????

...........................................................................................

I think there was a bit of tongue-in cheek humor intended.

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Marching while chewing gum is harder to do than THAT!

Edited September 13, 2012 by waysider

[Raf]

If I were to write a paper on reinforced self deception, I would devote chapters to johniam's post.

I am encouraging people to search their hearts and admit something that is extraordinarily difficult to admit. I convinced myself I was manifesting the power of the Almighty. But does He really need me to lie for Him? I think not.

[newlife]

Speaking in Tongues? I do it and love it. I did it before I ever got involved with TWI under instruction of a minister. Like someone said, there's too much evidence for me personally in my experiences and it lines up with what the bible says, for me to ever doubt it or the other manifestations. If it wasn't for the manifestations I would be dead. I had a 20% chance of living and Someone prayed for me and I was instantly healed....instantly. And the Dr. said, (Who was a Christian), Well, I can't write down in the medical records that you were healed by God, but I absolutely have no doubt that is what happened, cause that is the only way that you would be totally free of this disease. Thank God someone else also believed and utilized the manifestations in their lives and prayed for me that day. It was July 22, 1995.

I speak of my experience and my beliefs as does everyone. Isn't it great to have the freedom to do that?

[Ham]

If I were to write a paper on reinforced self deception, I would devote chapters to johniam's post.

Whatever you call it.. some people need that kind of security blanket to make it through the night, or through the day for that matter..

[Raf]

I am going to change "reinforced self-deception" to "communal self-deception," as I think the term better conveys the point I'm trying to articulate.

I appreciate what's being said here, and I can't force anyone to join me. But there are those, I am CERTAIN, who were like me for years who were afraid to admit it, because doing so calls too much into question. To those, I say stand up and tell the truth. God can handle it. He already knows, doesn't He? So just who is it you've been kidding? A lie cannot glorify God.

[hiway29]

I am going to change "reinforced self-deception" to "communal self-deception," as I think the term better conveys the point I'm trying to articulate.

I appreciate what's being said here, and I can't force anyone to join me. But there are those, I am CERTAIN, who were like me for years who were afraid to admit it, because doing so calls too much into question. To those, I say stand up and tell the truth. God can handle it. He already knows, doesn't He? So just who is it you've been kidding? A lie cannot glorify God.

I admit I never believed it for a minute. I was a twig leader for years, ran 2 classes, advanced class grad-basically everything but corps, and just walked around with that unbelief about tongues and interpretation. Which is not to say that I didn't try to make int and prophecy as spontaneous as possible. With the amount of way think and Bible study in my head, it became easy to rattle off words of exhortation and comfort. I justified it by hopefully doing it in love and caring about the people in the room, and in that regard, thought the messages WERE edifying, whether God put them there or not. At the time I reasoned that was how God worked in you, and went on running twigs and manifesting year in and out. But I thought then and still think that sit in the way was gobbledy gook-I can't speak to any experiences outside of the way structure.

[WordWolf]

On the one hand,

I can freely admit that, at least part of the time, that the twi method relied on faking it.

I agree the "excellor's sessions" relied on that, and were practice in faking it.

On the other hand,

I can freely admit that, at least part of the time, I'm convinced there was genuine godly stuff

in spite of the twi method and the faking it of other times.

I remember hearing that people get MORE convinced they're not faking it during INTERPRETATION or

PROPHECY than tongues, because you can tell if you're making up meanings. (My wording.)

I remember enough incidents involving interpretation or prophecy that I can't just blow them ALL off.

(I CAN, however, blow off some.)

I think John had a legitimate point about experiencing the power of God, but it got lost in the shuffle.

I would say that- after experiencing the power of God in dramatic fashion in one's life-

that it is easy to dismiss the concept that it is ALL fake.

Power of God? Certainly.

Is everything someone wants to attribute to God the power of God? Certainly NOT.

Many so-called "supernatural" things have mundane explanations. vpw was amateur enough to fall for some

and pass them along in the so-called "Advanced" class as actual, supernatural things.

Yet stage magicians can produce them.

So, I can say I've participated in some WELL-INTENTIONED error and lying when I thought I wasn't,

and I've participated in some legitimate supernatural stuff in spite of the former.

[Raf]

As the first recipient of my lie, you deserve a direct apology from me. I just wanted to fit in, man. I REALLY wanted to fit in.

[Rejoice]

speech therapists have documented glossolalia between siblings, and especially twins for years. it is common and a language between the participants.

[Raf]

Remarkable. Irrelevant, but quite remarkable.

[waysider]

speech therapists have documented glossolalia between siblings, and especially twins for years. it is common and a language between the participants.

Twin talk (idioglossia) might sound like speaking in tongues but, that's about as far as the similarity goes. The brain activity involved in twin talk and speaking in tongues is not the same.

[chockfull]

I lied about it all.

I admit it. I have never spoken in a language unknown to me. The "interpretations" that came from me were made up on the spot. The "words of prophecy" that came from me were, likewise, fabricated extemporaneously. It was all a lie.

Interesting point: In CES (I refuse to dignify their later irrelevant metamorpheses), they taught that an interpretation should take the form of prayer and praise, not exhortation and comfort, and voila! Just like that, their interpretations changed to conform to their new doctrine. What this tells me? I'm not the only one who made it up, who lied to gain the favor of the group.

I can't be the only one.

I believe that TWI encouraged this lie (and continues to do so to this day). A supernatural experience is posited to you, you lie to feign participation in that experience, and you gain acceptance. What united us was NOT the supernatural experience, but the participation in the lie. I call it reinforced-self-deception. And I renounce it.

Does anyone else?

Raf,

I'll give you my take on it. As a forewarning I don't agree with you, but I respect where you are coming from. I've experienced the "gifts of the spirit" in mainstream denominational Christianity and in TWI. For me I just consider the "praying in the spirit" thing a normal part of my prayer life. I pray with my understanding, I pray in tongues. I've heard the interpretation/prophecy thing in mainstream Christianity and in TWI. I've been edified, I've also been around where it's an ego trip.

I do think TWI is puffed up about this category, and in handling it projects a "spiritual elitism" that is unhealthy and sets the groundwork for a lot of arrogance and control of people. In direct opposition to TWI's arrogance, I believe the scripture and especially how all that stuff is set within the "love" chapter in Corinthians. I firmly believe that if people are in a prayer group and want to worship God and love one another, that these messages will be honored by God. I really don't think God cares as much about whether one guy interprets his own or another guy does.

I think the excellor session stuff with all of the "practice" on starting tongues with the letter "c" and all the 3x in a row tongues/interpretation is a bunch of malarkey. It's just a vehicle for people to get all puffed up and judge their brothers in Christ and get into the foolishness of comparing yourself to one another.

I'm sure TWI fans will sputter "but, but, but people need instruction". No they don't. Most of the so-called instruction in VP's classes maybe he put in there because of his own hangups about lying about it to Oral Roberts and his experience. I don't know, but it turned into a huge legalism endeavor.

I say pray. If you're inspired, pray in tongues. I don't really know if that's the "glossolalia" thing people describe or something else, and I really don't care. It's just part of my prayer life and my relationship with God and my Savior. If you pray with a group and everyone wants some inspiration and is up for it, do it. But if nobody ever does, still love is greater.

Oh, one more thing. All the bodybuilder talk about making yourself "spiritually strong" so you can "operate the revelation and impartation manifestations". Yeah that's crapola too. If God needs to speak with you He can find a way you can understand. If He needs to you do something for Him same thing goes. He can let you know. It absolutely will have nothing to do with how much you walk around doing glossolalia while you're doing laundry.

[TrustAndObey]

A lie.. Sure.. It could be labeled that. I acted [aka lied] as though the "inspired" spiel I gave was SIT/Prophecy.. That was the lie.. Was it inspired utterance? Sometimes.. I was inspired to share a message at times (not the "message given by God's spirit" sort of thing), but other times, it was just say something cause I'm being forced to so mr grumpy doesn't .. well you know... I wasn't always inspired to share a word.. And I'm using inspired like the normal English sense of the word. Were any of those "inspired" words actually "a message from God" placed in my mind.. Well, then it wouldn't be inspiration, it would be revelation, now wouldn't it..

My take on it.. SIT, I have no doubt is in the realm of possibility, why else would scriptures speak of it. But what TWI/CES taught, was far from what the scriptures describe. There's only one actual detailed description in the scriptures, and if you tell me what we did in them meetings were in any way similar, yeah, well, I'm not that deluded any longer. I believe SIT serves a purpose, but not for what I believe we "forced" it to become, which practically is little different than the Pentecostals.

In fact, all these manifestations of the gift to me is just plain ludicrous in how we promoted them. Not only is God's gift NOT referred to in the scriptures by the many "supposed" names (like "new man") Werewolf and co liked to refer to it as to try and cobble his doctrine together, it's still God's spirit and it's His choice not ours. So SIT.. Sure, when God decides.. But I wouldn't call what we did SIT, since it doesn't really match the scriptures detailed description.

Inspired utterance, sure.. Just don't re-define those words with "religious/Werewolf" meanings.

[johniam]

quote: The "interpretations" that came from me were made up on the spot. The "words of prophecy" that came from me were, likewise, fabricated extemporaneously. It was all a lie.

No it wasn't!

Remember, the words of interpretation and prophecy are inspiration, not revelation. Revelation is a direct message from God; inspiration comes from within yourself. If I had a bad day, I might be inspired to speak about hope or healing. If I had a great day, then perhaps about how God is faithful and just. You DO make it up on the spot. It just takes the spirit of God for someone to consistently minister grace to each different configuration of hearers in a godly way. If you thought it up hours earlier and memorized it you might fool people or luck out SOME of the time, but it wouldn't feel right. No exhortation, edification, or comfort. It would be hollow.

That's just your opinion. You act like just because you did it disingenuously then so did everybody else and God has nothing to do with any of it. Prove it!

[Rocky]

I admit I never believed it for a minute. I was a twig leader for years, ran 2 classes, advanced class grad-basically everything but corps, and just walked around with that unbelief about tongues and interpretation. Which is not to say that I didn't try to make int and prophecy as spontaneous as possible. With the amount of way think and Bible study in my head, it became easy to rattle off words of exhortation and comfort. I justified it by hopefully doing it in love and caring about the people in the room, and in that regard, thought the messages WERE edifying, whether God put them there or not. At the time I reasoned that was how God worked in you, and went on running twigs and manifesting year in and out. But I thought then and still think that sit in the way was gobbledy gook-I can't speak to any experiences outside of the way structure.

I believe there is something to that explanation. The only thing I am certain about in this discussion is that none of us will be able to do anything other than say what we believe we did, what we believe took place, or what we do not believe.

Can there be any tangible, scientific proof to any of these notions or ideas? I don't think so. But if anyone can prove me wrong, well, I'd be interested in hearing how that could be done.

[waysider]

Remember, the words of interpretation and prophecy are inspiration, not revelation. Revelation is a direct message from God; inspiration comes from within yourself.

Ummmmmm.....You do realize you're just parroting Wierwille, don't you? Is there someplace in the Bible that corroborates that thought?

[Raf]

Communal self deception.

I TELL you I lied, and you're so invested in the lie that you demand proof. Holy...

As for proving that others are lying, I think johniam's demand for proof is bass-ackward. You claim to have the ability to, on the spot, bring forth a message from the Almighty Creator of the Universe, and the burden is on ME to prove YOU'RE lying? Please.

[hiway29]

Communal self deception.

I TELL you I lied, and you're so invested in the lie that you demand proof. Holy...

As for proving that others are lying, I think johniam's demand for proof is bass-ackward. You claim to have the ability to, on the spot, bring forth a message from the Almighty Creator of the Universe, and the burden is on ME to prove YOU'RE lying? Please.

It reminds me of the Ed Wood movie 'Plan 9 from Outer Space', where Criswell challenges us "Can you prove it DIDN'T happen ?" Not that I'm equating or making light of the subject.

[waysider]

God told me you would say that.

[Steve Lortz]

I believe that it is impossible to "prove" the existence of God. I can decide whether or not to believe it. I think it's the same way for speaking in tongues. I don't think it can be proven that SIT is real. Likewise, I don't think it can be proven that SIT is fake.

Despite all the reasons Wierwille gave for speaking in tongues (what were there? a dozen or so?), I don't believe SIT is good for any earthly thing. It doesn't produce any scientificly demonstrable effect.

So in a sense, Raf, I agree and disagree with you at the same time. Truth is not as cut and dried as Wierwille would have had us believe.

I am coming to believe that God works in history (including present tense experience) through synchronisms, that is through seemingly meaningful coincidences. Perhaps that's what the Greek word kairos means in Ephesians 1:10?

I've just declared my intention to write a thesis this week. It'll probably take a couple of years to finish. I'm going to translate Acts 2 from the Greek myself, and I've started work on only the very first phrase, "kai en toi sumplerousthai ten hemeran tes pentekostes", which the KJV has as "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come". I think it would be closer to the Greek sense to say "and during the topping-off of the day of Pentecost", since sumplerousthai means "to fill full".

It's comforting to know that I will not be working in the intellectual vacuum of TWI, but under the supervision of a multitude of professors at a seminary that is not fundamentalist and that does not formally recognize SIT as something presently valid. I just spent the last couple of days organizing an informal support network consisting of seven of my profs who are interested in my project. SIT will be a side issue (though an important one) to my goal, which is to interpret Acts chapter 2 through the lens of Walter Kaiser's "promise-plan" system of unifying the material in the Bible. Kaiser's promise-plan is a vastly better organizing system than Darby's dispensationalism OR Reformation covenant theology. The heavy lifting of the project will be explaining how "the person and work of the Holy Spirit" fits in, or, the difference between the Giver and the Gift.

One of the things I'm going to have to do is demonstrate the relationship between God the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ and the role of spirit set forth in a Stoic interpretation of I Corinthians 8:6. I've already blown one prof's mind with that one!

I think I will start a thread about this project on the Docrinal forum, so I will be able to include all of you in my support network. And after following you in the Actual Errors in PFAL, Raf, I know your input would be very valuable in keeping my feet to the fire! Thanks!

Love,

Steve

Edited September 14, 2012 by Steve Lortz