SIT, TIP, Prophecy and Confession

[Raf]

I raise the question because if we are to distinguish Burton's class from VPW's class, we cannot ignore the fact that VPW endorsed Burton's class. If he thought there was anything wrong with it, he would have said so (and if it was the late 70s, they most certainly would have listened).

If Burton was wrong about what VPW thought the manifestations should be, then VPW curiously did not call him on his error. And that's fine. No one said VPW was perfect. I mean, it's not like he felt the holy spirit field was an important area of study or something.

[excathedra]

This summer I'm taking a class called "Research and Design," beginning the process of working on my thesis regarding Acts 2. One of the first decisions I made was that I would NOT try to make any linkage between what the New Testament called "speaking in tongues" in the first century and what people call "speaking in tongues" today. I don't think there's any valid scholarly way to make such a linkage, and my adviser agreed.

I personally believe that what I do is genuine. I don't believe that means what WEIRWILLE did when he was teaching PFAL was genuine. I don't believe it negates the decision Raf has made about his own experience.

I don't think whether or not a Christian speaks in tongues today can hamper the Spirit of God from working in or through that person.

I think being honest with Him and with ourselves is one of the things God most wants us to do.

Love,

Steve

would love to hear more steve thanks

[krys]

But Burton's class was dropped and vp's reinstated when Burton left or was fired! I don't know when you were there Raf, yearwise. I know that I heard Burton's class and later it was dropped.

[johniam]

It was late 70s early 80s. Burton's class taught the same TIP material VPs did. IMO they thought they were making it better in quality by timing everybody's tongue, then comparing it to the interpretation, but the leaders of the excellor sessions sometimes got all gestapo on you about stuff. Yeah, sure, that would really "inspire" me to bring forth edification exhortation and comfort. The older grads just didn't dig it. I imagine it got worse after 1994.

[Steve Lortz]

would love to hear more steve thanks

Thank you, excie! I'll put some more stuff up on the doctrinal forum in a day or two.

I'm tempted to post more here in order to get the thread up to 100 pages. What other threads have gone this far? "The"?

Love,

Steve

[excathedra]

oh post it here steve :)/> i don't do doctrinal but i guess i will if you post here and tell me where to go

love,

e

Edited July 14, 2013 by excathedra

[Raf]

Johniam,

I guess what I'm saying is, if VPW signed off on Earl Burton's class, then what Earl Burton taught is quite likely what VPW wanted taught, thus superseding his earlier presentation of the same principle. In other words, VPW clearly signed off on the "interpretation should be generally as long as the tongue" idea.

I don't think the class instructors got all gestapo on the students. I think VPW did, and it filtered down.

[johniam]

Raf:

Yes, VP totally signed off on Earl's class, but I met Earl a time or 2 in the 70s and I've seen him recently. He never came off to me as abrasive in any way, in person or in his class, plus I don't recall anyone here on GSC ever calling him verbally or sexually abusive. Two things...

1) One complaint on GSC which has surfaced in multiple contexts is that many times, people in authoritative positions in twi were not trained to handle people problems at all, so maybe they actually did walk with God, maybe they lucked out, or maybe people got hurt on their watch. I'm not just talking about VP or Earl, I'm talking about twig cordos, wow cordos, class cordos, etc. The first time I took Earl's class, one of the excellor session leaders acted like you were out of fellowship forever if your tongue was 10 seconds and your interpretation was 9. Earl and VP never came off to me like that. Plus...

2) VPs class was in 1967 when the ministry was smaller. VP was only concerned that people did it back then. By 1980 or so, when Earl's class came, there were thousands of people still coming into twi. Then the concern was more on quality. I can see that, but IMO timing the interpretations and stuff like that did not improve the overall quality of anything; it just gave folks one more thing to grumble about.

[waysider]

..............

2) VPs class was in 1967 when the ministry was smaller. VP was only concerned that people did it back then. By 1980 or so, when Earl's class came, there were thousands of people still coming into twi. Then the concern was more on quality. I can see that, but IMO timing the interpretations and stuff like that did not improve the overall quality of anything; it just gave folks one more thing to grumble about.

If it had been a genuine "manifestation of spirit", not only would none of this mattered, it would not have been necessary to change anything. I think we can all recall a few scriptures that speak to the timelessness and unchanging nature of God's Word.

[johniam]

quote:

If it had been a genuine "manifestation of spirit", not only would none of this mattered, it would not have been necessary to change anything. I think we can all recall a few scriptures that speak to the timelessness and unchanging nature of God's Word.

So...we should all be looking for the school of Tyrannus???

[waysider]

quote:

So...we should all be looking for the school of Tyrannus???

Can you explain what this means? The scriptures say that God doesn't change, His word doesn't change. So, why would the execution of TIP need to change?

Edited July 18, 2013 by waysider

[johniam]

God wrote the 10 commandments in stone with His finger...yet Christ is the end of the law. Explain what YOU mean by "God doesn't change".

[waysider]

God wrote the 10 commandments in stone with His finger...yet Christ is the end of the law. Explain what YOU mean by "God doesn't change".

I have no idea where you are going with this, John. If you need an example, try Psalm 102:26,27. There are lots of other examples, as well. If the materials in TIP were based on something that is constant, why did the rules change and evolve? I think you already know the answer. It was man-made and contrived. If it wasn't, Wierwille would have had to say he had made a mistake the first time he presented it. As you know, Wierwille wasn't too big on saying he'd made a mistake about anything....ever.

[johniam]

Sorry, not worth my time.

[Human without the bean]

I'm surprised this thread got resurrected. I have no interest in fighting it all out again, but I do hope that changing the poll options helped to civilize the conversation.

I've been playing catch up for a few days now, and I figured this was as good of place as any to jump in, before the, well like he said,

/> Awahhh. sh#t I wish that one wasn't censored.

The current politically correct term for that is 'paranormal'. Hmm. Para means along side of, not at cross purposes with. So occult stuff is not at cross purposes with what is normal, eh? Interesting.

So, it's not that "paranormal" is so much

current or politically correct, it is more technical and "correct" in

that it conveys information without adding editorializing than a phrase

meant to belittle it.

I don't see a connection with

"not at cross purposes with."

Firstly, WordWolf t think what Johniam is saying wasn't even meant to be serious, and secondly, if he was he wasn't putting his own private spin on it anyway. It was WereWolfs words that he were quoting.

Not to come off sounding like I'm on Johniam's side, or anything like that but, WordWolf he's making a rhetorical statement about the word "hookiepookism". The occult founder WereWolf, (sorry, that's what I call him) used to reference any interpretation for his explaination of the occult with that word, and never let anything get at cross purposes with what he was teaching. Cross-purpose with anything that he taught was never allowed.

oh post it here steve /> i don't do doctrinal but i guess i will if you post here and tell me where to go

love,

e

I'm with you Excie. Certainly lets shoot for 100.

quote:

If it had been a genuine "manifestation of spirit", not only would none of this mattered, it would not have been necessary to change anything. I think we can all recall a few scriptures that speak to the timelessness and unchanging nature of God's Word.

So...we should all be looking for the school of Tyrannus???

Can you explain what this means? The scriptures say that God doesn't change, His word doesn't change. So, why would the execution of TIP need to change?

I think he meant to illustrate what were doing (me now) here, and where in Acts 19:9 Paul was teaching in the synagogue about "the-way" and coming up against heavy hitting individuals rejecting what he had to say.

Not that anybody here is hitting any individuals. Just wanted to get in on the conversation was all!!

[WordWolf]

Firstly, WordWolf t think what Johniam is saying wasn't even meant to be serious, and secondly, if he was he wasn't putting his own private spin on it anyway. It was WereWolfs words that he were quoting.

[sorry, but that's not what he was doing at all.]

I was thinking of starting a thread called 'What would VP have called it today?',

(snip)

[He was speculating, on his own, about what vpw MIGHT have said.

That's nothing at all like a quote-

with the obvious exception of the word "hookiepook"- which we all know vpw used

and John was clear about that.

I note the term is dismissive and demeaning, but other than that I have

no problems with its use.

If he wasn't serious, for that matter, he wouldn't have considered starting

a new thread about it.]

Johniam:

The only other thing I thought of was his use of the word 'hookiepookism', meaning, basically, some form of the occult. The current politically correct term for that is 'paranormal'. Hmm. Para means along side of, not at cross purposes with. So occult stuff is not at cross purposes with what is normal, eh? Interesting.

Not to come off sounding like I'm on Johniam's side, or anything like that but, WordWolf he's making a rhetorical statement about the word "hookiepookism". The occult founder WereWolf, (sorry, that's what I call him) used to reference any interpretation for his explaination of the occult with that word, and never let anything get at cross purposes with what he was teaching. Cross-purpose with anything that he taught was never allowed.

[vpw used "hookiepookism" to refer to anything supposedly supernatural

and not Christian. We know that, and nobody contests it.

John did NOT speak about what you just claimed- as we can see.

John claimed that the modern, accepted term would not be

"hookiepookism", but "paranormal."

I agree, and that term isn't loaded and pejorative like the other is.

But then John, all on his own, speculated on what "paranormal" is,

came up with a meaning entirely his own-which contradicts what

experts on English said it means-

and then took his invented meaning and began speculating on the

implications on a definition he himself made up and nobody is

agreeing with.

You said he claimed vpw didn't let anything get at cross-purposes

with what he taught, and that's what John was addressing when he

used the word "cross purpose." John, however, was quite clear he

was claiming the word "paranormal" implied that paranormal things

were NOT at cross purposes with what is normal- which is in

opposition to what the word actually means.

I'd rather just let this go-nobody is perfect-but since you brought

it back, I thought it was important to set the record straight

and quote what John actually said.]

Edited July 19, 2013 by WordWolf

[WordWolf]

Sometimes it's easy to spot whenever someone's trying to misdirect

discussion away from yet another thing that was vpw's fault.

Some people, in fact, tend to telegraph that it's what they're doing,

fairly consistently. It makes it easier for me to see it happening.

Case in point:

(all underlines are added by me for emphasis)

I raise the question because if we are to distinguish Burton's class from VPW's class, we cannot ignore the fact that VPW endorsed Burton's class. If he thought there was anything wrong with it, he would have said so (and if it was the late 70s, they most certainly would have listened).

If Burton was wrong about what VPW thought the manifestations should be, then VPW curiously did not call him on his error. And that's fine. No one said VPW was perfect. I mean, it's not like he felt the holy spirit field was an important area of study or something.

Plain English-whether or not vpw himself taught it,

if it didn't pass vpw's approval, it would have not been FILMED

let alone copied and used. So, it wasn't that vpw thought it was

one way and others came along and contradicted him-

this was vpw's show no matter who was at the pulpit.

So, this reflected vpw's understanding at different times-

and the practices were the result of applying what vpw said

and taught.

It was late 70s early 80s. Burton's class taught the same TIP material VPs did. IMO they thought they were making it better in quality by timing everybody's tongue, then comparing it to the interpretation, but the leaders of the excellor sessions sometimes got all gestapo on you about stuff. Yeah, sure, that would really "inspire" me to bring forth edification exhortation and comfort. The older grads just didn't dig it. I imagine it got worse after 1994.

Specifically, vpw thought they were making it better in quality by doing all that.

It was even directly in the taped sessions.

Yes, there were some docents of the practice sessions who were

"gestapo" about it- but they were only following orders.

The class itself showed taping and analysis, so they followed suit.

This was fine with vpw who did nothing to curtail it.

So, this was a natural consequence of the class that reflected

vpw's doctrine and passed his approval.

'Raf' date='15 July 2013 - 03:46 PM:

"Johniam,

I guess what I'm saying is, if VPW signed off on Earl Burton's class, then what Earl Burton taught is quite likely what VPW wanted taught, thus superseding his earlier presentation of the same principle. In other words, VPW clearly signed off on the "interpretation should be generally as long as the tongue" idea.

I don't think the class instructors got all gestapo on the students. I think VPW did, and it filtered down."

It was a clear point, and a good point.

Naturally, that means some people will immediately try to obscure it

since it means vpw is to be blamed for something,

and that's verboten for some people.

'johniam' date='17 July 2013 - 05:11 PM

Raf:

Yes, VP totally signed off on Earl's class, but I met Earl a time or 2 in the 70s and I've seen him recently. He never came off to me as abrasive in any way, in person or in his class, plus I don't recall anyone here on GSC ever calling him verbally or sexually abusive."

That's not the point. The point was that vpw set up practices-

and Earl delivered them via tape-

that were used to get "gestapo" on people.

So, the local jackboots didn't all just wake up one morning

and-in sync- try to bulldoze things with a mechanized approach.

That came down, in steps, specifically from vpw.

Earl could be very nice personally, and still pass along

doctrines and practices that others would utilize fully-

and harass people in the process. Earl certainly MEANT well.

So, Earl's niceness (or theoretical lack of same) is a non-issue

as it does nothing to address the results.

Johniam (ibid)

Two things...

1) One complaint on GSC which has surfaced in multiple contexts is that many times, people in authoritative positions in twi were not trained to handle people problems at all, so maybe they actually did walk with God, maybe they lucked out, or maybe people got hurt on their watch. I'm not just talking about VP or Earl, I'm talking about twig cordos, wow cordos, class cordos, etc. The first time I took Earl's class, one of the excellor session leaders acted like you were out of fellowship forever if your tongue was 10 seconds and your interpretation was 9. Earl and VP never came off to me like that."

But they were the ones that passed it all along,

whether or not you saw EITHER of them practicing it.

(vpw was VERY good at doing ONE set of things in

private and teaching ONE set of things in private-

then being completely different in public.

Johniam (ibid)

"Plus...

2) VPs class was in 1967 when the ministry was smaller. VP was only concerned that people did it back then. By 1980 or so, when Earl's class came, there were thousands of people still coming into twi. Then the concern was more on quality. I can see that, but IMO timing the interpretations and stuff like that did not improve the overall quality of anything; it just gave folks one more thing to grumble about."

So, in your opinion, vpw changed things and added practices

that didn't improve with the changes-

and made it easier for the heavy-handed people to be even more

heavy-handed with others.

If it had been a genuine "manifestation of spirit", not only would none of this mattered, it would not have been necessary to change anything. I think we can all recall a few scriptures that speak to the timelessness and unchanging nature of God's Word.

If it was all reflections of what God wanted and said,

there would be no need for improvements because it would

already have been given at the highest performance level,

too.

So, vpw set up changes and added practices that did nothing

to help Christians-but rather hinder them instead.

Not really news anymore-except to a handful.

quote:

If it had been a genuine "manifestation of spirit", not only would none of this mattered, it would not have been necessary to change anything. I think we can all recall a few scriptures that speak to the timelessness and unchanging nature of God's Word.

So...we should all be looking for the school of Tyrannus???

Here we have the change of subject-

making the discussion about anything BUT vpw's culpability for his poor practices and errors.

Nothing clear-just a vague statement so others have to try to

interpret an abstraction.

Can you explain what this means? The scriptures say that God doesn't change, His word doesn't change. So, why would the execution of TIP need to change?

That WAS the point-for almost everyone.

God wrote the 10 commandments in stone with His finger...yet Christ is the end of the law. Explain what YOU mean by "God doesn't change".

I have no idea where you are going with this, John. If you need an example, try Psalm 102:26,27. There are lots of other examples, as well. If the materials in TIP were based on something that is constant, why did the rules change and evolve? I think you already know the answer. It was man-made and contrived. If it wasn't, Wierwille would have had to say he had made a mistake the first time he presented it. As you know, Wierwille wasn't too big on saying he'd made a mistake about anything....ever.

There's the point again.

Sorry, not worth my time.

Also not defensible since only the vague stuff worked.

Getting into specifics showed vpw as culpable.

So, leaving before you're caught mangling the understanding

of the situation.

Edited July 19, 2013 by WordWolf

[Human without the bean]

You could have come back WordWolf with a line from Forrest Gump

and said, "That's about all I have to say about that."

I think I may have just caught the Burton class just before it was hush-hushed.

That was the beginning of the end for VP.

Reflecting back now, that was about the time when everything turned into the fog years.

[Steve Lortz]

It seems to me that one of the things Paul taught was that people could now walk by the Spirit rather than by the flesh. Under the New Testament (the testament written on our hearts rather than on stone), doing the right thing did not depend on following a bunch of fleshly rules and regulations that the Pharisees had made up, but rather on moving as the Spirit directs.

And not only that, walking by the Spirit is in NO WAY compulsory! Now the Lord (Jesus Christ) is that Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

The intermediate class was nothing more than a set of fleshly rules and regulations put together and modified by 20th century Pharisees.

Wierwille was wrong in his very definition of interpretation.

If we read the New Testament carefully, we find that the content of tongues is thanksgiving, praise and worship directed TOWARD God. Genuine interpretation of genuine tongues would then also be thanksgiving directed toward God

Yet Wierwille taught that interpretation should be a message from or for God in the language of the people present, which was also Wierwille's definition of propecy.

I may disagree with Raf that we were ALL faking tongues ALL the time, but I think the interpretations delivered in the excelors' sessions were either prophecy (in a very few cases), or faked (in most). And I used to run excelors' sessions.

The fact that some people are defending Wierwille's doctrine and practice would seem to indicate they need to come to a recognition of the difference between the Spirit and Wierwille's phoney, non-scriptural, pharisaic rules and regulations.

Love,

Steve

[chockfull]

The fact that some people are defending Wierwille's doctrine and practice would seem to indicate they need to come to a recognition of the difference between the Spirit and Wierwille's phoney, non-scriptural, pharisaic rules and regulations.

I think we are all trying to come to a recognition of the difference between the genuine Spirit of God and Wierwille's Phariseeism which has not gotten any better with his successors.

I think what Wierwille taught on manifestations was definitely rote and mechanical. And it got worse with Burton's class.

I can see why people would reject it and go 100% in the opposite direction. For myself, I feel I have gravitated more towards focusing on the relationship aspect of prayer and worship (and surrounding topics). To me I get more out of it looking at it like that as opposed to all the mechanics and rules and regulations. And I feel like dragging back down into those details doesn't do anything for me - it just leads to comparisons between people which I think is dumb anyway.

with the obvious exception of the word "hookiepook"- which we all know vpw used

and John was clear about that.

I note the term is dismissive and demeaning, but other than that I have

no problems with its use.

I find it hilarious that a child-like mispronunciation of the common term "hocus pocus" - a magician phrase was hijacked by Wierwille, imitated by thousands, and turned into Biblical doctrine on the occult.

For our next Advanced Class session, make sure all you kids have your Crayons.

[Human without the bean]

I find it hilarious that a child-like mispronunciation of the common term "hocus pocus" - a magician phrase was hijacked by Wierwille, imitated by thousands, and turned into Biblical doctrine on the occult.

Only the master magician, V P WereWolf, can trick that many people that many times.

He's better than Houdini. What's next? Is he going to come back from out of the grave?

[Raf]

While WordWolf correctly ascertained the point of my recent posts and accurately anticipated my response to the answers I received, I was (and still am) prepared to let it go. I think I made my point, but I thank my old friend for expounding on it to make it clear to everyone else.

Been thinking a lot about the content of this thread and its implications for me personally, but in truth I have nothing to add to the discussion that already got too contentious for civil discourse more than once, for which I hold myself well more than half responsible.

Be well, all.

[hiway29]

There was nothing worse than when they combined the intermediate with the foundational class in the late 70's. It was one thing to get people who were sticking around in twigs, and accustomed to this rite to take it knowing what they were going into. Expecting all the 'new students'-some who were 'half way houses' to begin with , to sit through excellor sessions , was short sighted in my opinion. I ran 2 classes with this arrangement, and spent a great deal of time with a few people that had no interest in going to twig, manifesting, or making sure their interpretation was the same length as their tongues. Really awkward.

[excathedra]

the testament written on our hearts rather than on stone

that made me feel good

Now the Lord (Jesus Christ) is that Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

and that also

....

if you read my post, say a prayer for me. thank you.

[waysider]

Here's how TIP/Prophesy works: You fill your mind with "Bible-talk", via classes, twig meetings, so on and so forth. When the time comes, you simply recapitulate said Bible-talk in a manner that satisfies the rules that have been laid out. That's it, no mystery, no mystical power at work. Sorry if that sounds blunt and cold. That's how it happens. (IMO)