SIT, TIP, Prophecy and Confession

[Raf]

Prophecy, unlike SIT, really and truly is impossible to prove (or disprove). We rely here entirely on the integrity of those bringing forth the messages. I can record SIT, play it back, and establish to a reasonable degree of confidence that the words spoken are not a language. But I can't play back a prophecy and establish that it was really the speaker extemporaneously bringing forth a comforting message rather than God inspiring the same message. "Prove it," with prophecy, really makes no sense. I can't disprove it any more than you can prove it.

I can tell you I made it all up and that it wasn't God working in me. I had/have a pretty decent knowledge of the Bible and heard enough samples of prophecy to fake it with the best of them (psst: YOU were the best of them).

Interpretation is a different ball of wax. It should go without saying that IF all SIT is phony, then all interpretation is phony by definition. That wouldn't stop God from working in someone's heart to bring forth a prophecy when it's time to interpret, so again, I can't prove the content of interpretation is uninspired. In my opinion, it's a safe bet that the message you brought forth in a tongue and the message you brought forth in interpreting that tongue were utterly unrelated, but that's my opinion. It's rather like trying to describe a hotel's penthouse when I haven't even gotten out of the lobby yet. Even if I'm right, you have no reason to believe me.

Some things I find interesting:

I brought up the CES/TWI disagreement over interpretation to illustrate my point about how I can't be the only one who faked it. In reality, the difference doesn't prove anything because both sides have an explanation that acknowledges divine inspiration in the process.

According to CES: Believers SIT and then interpret, but in TWI one of two things happened. The believers either prophesied when they should have been interpreting, or their minds interfered and they changed the wording of the interpretation to fit what they thought it should sound like. For example, if the tongue was "Lord God, you are ever faithful and true," the "polluted" interpretation would be "I, the Lord your God, am faithful and always true."

According to TWI: CES believers are either full of it and making it up, or they're altering the interpretation in reverse of how CES claims.

Those are the "spiritual" possibilities that can explain how a CES believer can speak in tongues and interpret and always have the message come out one way, while that same believer operating the same manifestation in TWI several years earlier would produce a radically different type of interpretation.

Those are the "spiritual" possibilities. The rational explanation is that both sides are making it up as they go along and it should be no suprise whatsoever that the interpretation matches the theology.

Wouldn't it have been great, during these prophecies, for the message to have been something along the lines of: "My little children, be warned, you're in a cult. These people are in it for the money and the power. Think for yourselves. Run! Run far away!"

Anyone ever have THAT happen? Would have edified the hell out of me.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Raf

[Raf]

Something else I find interesting: I don't recall if it was this thread or another one that explored the same issues a few years back, but I know someone told a story about faking the interpretation or prophecy and getting busted by the class or fellowship coordinator. Something along the lines of, "you faked that, didn't you?" Mr. Coordinator Man probably looked SOOOOO in tune with God when he recognized the fabrication, and the speaker was duly chastised.

Try to see this from my perspective and appreciate the humor: The coordinator could say "you faked that, didn't you?" to ANY speaker at ANY meeting at ANY time and be right.

How much of a reinforcement is it to you, then, when you are at a meeting and the coordinator spots a fake, lovingly reproves, then turns to you; you SIT and interpret, and Mr. Coordinator Man doesn't call you out! Hallelujah! God, who told Mr. Coordinator Man that Johnny Jumpup faked it, was silent when you interpreted. Yours must have been genuine!

Your heart is in the right place. You're trying to do God's will. You sure as heck don't WANT to fake it. And God is calling out fakers in your presence! So when He does not call you out, that's your verification, your authentication. You didn't fake it because if you did, God would have told Mr. Coordinator Man, who would have told you.

Reinforced self-deception?

Yes, I recognize that I am DEEP into "you can't prove it" territory. I'm not trying to prove it. I know I faked it. I know others did. I'm coming clean. I invite others to. But there is no logical, Biblical way to suggest that everyone's in the same boat, so I won't push it beyond expressing my thought on the matter.

[chockfull]

I brought up the CES/TWI disagreement over interpretation to illustrate my point about how I can't be the only one who faked it. In reality, the difference doesn't prove anything because both sides have an explanation that acknowledges divine inspiration in the process.

According to CES: Believers SIT and then interpret, but in TWI one of two things happened. The believers either prophesied when they should have been interpreting, or their minds interfered and they changed the wording of the interpretation to fit what they thought it should sound like. For example, if the tongue was "Lord God, you are ever faithful and true," the "polluted" interpretation would be "I, the Lord your God, am faithful and always true."

According to TWI: CES believers are either full of it and making it up, or they're altering the interpretation in reverse of how CES claims.

Trying to keep my splinter groups straight. Isn't CES the one where we had like the dueling catfight visions of supposed "discerning of spirits" revelation between Graser's wife and John Lynn's 2nd ex-wife?

"I saw a snake, and it had your face." "I saw a hobo, and it was you".

Then there was like this "prophetic council" established where all the men around refused to throw water on these cats, ending up in Lynn's divorce, Graser's kicking out, and the org basically falling apart?

Somehow all that doesn't inspire a lot of confidence for going with their version of SIT, interpretation, prophecy. But hey, maybe that's just me.

And who knows, maybe "John Lynn v.3 My Face Looks Like a Muppet" will again gain traction. :biglaugh:

Wouldn't it have been great, during these prophecies, for the message to have been something along the lines of: "My little children, be warned, you're in a cult. These people are in it for the money and the power. Think for yourselves. Run! Run far away!"

Anyone ever have THAT happen? Would have edified the hell out of me.

Now there's something that I can get on board with. I can hear the messages now:

"I the Lord Thy God hate stealing. I even made up a commandment. All those books on your bookshelf, where the author stole his material from others? Um, yeah. I don't like that".

"I God, Your Heavenly Father, created the heavens and earth in 7 days. And, I did it without micromanagement. Or boring Sunday sessions of reading cue cards".

"There verily will be those that come to you with their noses in the air, looking down them at you. They will pretend to know what's best for you. They are fools. Don't listen to them. They need to clean up their own cr@p, and read those scripture I inspired about studying to be quiet and doing their own business. I did absolutely nothing to put them in their perceived position of being 'over' you".

I know, not enough KJV English to be authentic. But hey, if we're going to make things up, let's make the messages at least plausible with how God would think about that stuff.

[chockfull]

Reinforced self-deception?

Yes, I recognize that I am DEEP into "you can't prove it" territory. I'm not trying to prove it. I know I faked it. I know others did. I'm coming clean. I invite others to. But there is no logical, Biblical way to suggest that everyone's in the same boat, so I won't push it beyond expressing my thought on the matter.

You know, from my perspective trying to prove anything based off the actions of TWI leadership (myself previously included) is kind of like trying to investigate the ink on a $3 bill. Everyone was so wrapped up in their own private version of playing their part in the long con that you're never going to prove anything truthful from that one way or the other.

[Raf]

Trying to keep my splinter groups straight. Isn't CES the one where we had like the dueling catfight visions of supposed "discerning of spirits" revelation between Graser's wife and John Lynn's 2nd ex-wife?

"I saw a snake, and it had your face." "I saw a hobo, and it was you".

Then there was like this "prophetic council" established where all the men around refused to throw water on these cats, ending up in Lynn's divorce, Graser's kicking out, and the org basically falling apart?

The short answer is yes. CES and STFI are the same group at different times.

Love your proposed prophecies!

You know, from my perspective trying to prove anything based off the actions of TWI leadership (myself previously included) is kind of like trying to investigate the ink on a $3 bill. Everyone was so wrapped up in their own private version of playing their part in the long con that you're never going to prove anything truthful from that one way or the other.

Nice analogy.

The difficulty of proving or disproving interpretation and prophecy is that I can't even think of an indisputable way to do it even within TWI, where we KNOW there was fakery and, I think, everyone admits faking it at least once (rare is the one who admits faking it in every instance). I think that's why this thread ended up concentrating on SIT even though all three manifestations are brought up in the thread title.

[geisha779]

Yeah, but when all you hear is how righteous and justified you are.....no matter what you do....it kind of takes the sting out of sins like theft, lying, bullying, and controlling abuses. Something was seriously screwy. The meanest of the bunch usually had the most themed prophecy. Righteous, justified, grace covering it all, chosen, special, you name a reason to ignore the obvious and it was usually in there.

Snakes coming out of bodily orifices is one way to go I guess?

[chockfull]

The meanest of the bunch usually had the most themed prophecy. Righteous, justified, grace covering it all, chosen, special, you name a reason to ignore the obvious and it was usually in there.

Do you think that maybe they were faking, seeing as like it was such a common theme throughout the rest of their lives?

[Raf]

"Maybe."

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

[OldSkool]

The short answer is yes. CES and STFI are the same group at different times.

Right. Christian Educational Services (CES) became Spirit and Truth Fellowship International (STFI) - I am not sure why the name changed but basically Schoenheit, Lynn and company were the organizers of this splinter. They got into all the personal prophecy crap chockfull mentioned and wound up with lawsuits flying around in the end of it all. STFI ousted John Lynn in political wrangling that would make the way international proud. John Lynn then gathered his followers from STFI and formed The Living Truth Fellowship (TLTF)

JAL is another story entirely. He shamelessly says he wants God to bring him some bored billionaires to give money to TLTF so he can reach the world with his gospel that he shamelessly calls the truth.

Anyone had enough acronyms from these good balls yet?

Back on topic.

[Raf]

Raf:

Mind you, I'm not suggesting no samples exist. Plenty exist, and insofar as they have been examined by competent linguists, they have all been dismissed as non-languages (not archaic, not angelic, not foreign, not languages).

Chock:

Can you document this claim for me? I'd like to see the actual evidence before coming to a conclusion on how widespread fakery in this area is. And this does seem to be a statement that would have some factual evidence to support.

................................................................................

HERE

(page 3 or 4, I think.)

This has nothing to do with nothing anymore, but I see that Landry appears to have pulled down his paper from his Web site. I wonder if he got wind of its use in this thread.

[geisha779]

Do you think that maybe they were faking, seeing as like it was such a common theme throughout the rest of their lives?

Could be you are on to something here. . . . which opens up a whole new line of questions somewhat unrelated to this thread. Just a thought, if VP was teaching true manifesting of gifts of the HS.....and his ministry reflected his theology....why was it inundated with a bunch of sadistic, narcissistic, cheating bullies? Love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control are a far cry from mark and avoid, homo purge, families being torn apart, rampant abortion and sexual abuse.

Just saying.

[OldSkool]

I wonder if he got wind of its use in this thread.

If he monitors traffic to his site then probably so. Don't blame him really. I never tell anyone I was in TWI...

[Raf]

I'm going to admit being a little surprised that there wasn't a stronger reaction to my thoughts on interpretation and prophecy. What gives? What's the difference? Can't be proof: in all three manifestations I readily admit I can't prove my position. So what are you guys thinking?

[chockfull]

So what are you guys thinking?

Can't prove it either.

Could be you are on to something here. . . . which opens up a whole new line of questions somewhat unrelated to this thread. Just a thought, if VP was teaching true manifesting of gifts of the HS.....and his ministry reflected his theology....why was it inundated with a bunch of sadistic, narcissistic, cheating bullies? Love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control are a far cry from mark and avoid, homo purge, families being torn apart, rampant abortion and sexual abuse.

Just saying.

Well, as we learned in PFAL, it may say apples on the outside, but that doesn't change the pickles on the inside.

Sometimes, these guys words fit them too well.

[waysider]

My thoughts on interpretation and prophesy?

I think if you're only exposed to them on a limited basis, like Wednesday night twig or Sunday night fellowship, they continue to hold some kind of mystique about them. In FellowLaborers, though, we were exposed to them a bare minimum of twice a day and frequently more than that. (It was a two year commitment. Do the math.) To use a familiar expression, "it got old fast". I had my doubts about interpretation and prophesy long before I had doubts about speaking in tongues.

Edited October 9, 2012 by waysider

[TrustAndObey]

If God were going to inspire a message to edify....we already have scripture. You would think it would be more specific.

If you asked me, and you didn't, but if God were to inspire thousands of these messages all the time as we met in these groups, if it was really God inspiring these things, you'd think He would be trying to get the truth out.. You know, the truth that most of us lacked until we left TWI. I mean, these messages were from God, right? And it was more important for Him to relate to us that He loved us by sending such a message, rather than showing that love by getting us out of that man made lions den? So God really wasn't interested in helping us to realize the reality of the utter BS that was going on around us. The lies, the hypocrisy, the corporation that wasn't of His doing? Instead of edifying and building us up, we were given a nice uplifting message anyone could fake, while we were left in that hell hole?

I the Lord thy God love thee, and desire for you to walk with these wicked ones. May you enjoy sitting near the seat of scoffers, cause I the lord thy God will not guide you away from them! Be blessed and know that I am God!

Yeah.. doesn't sit well with me either. But you know, it WAS GOD, right, that actually gave those messages all the time that were truly helpful?! Just checking..

I for one will admit, God gave me no such words.

[waysider]

When you get honest about it, it's really not much different than a séance, except instead of attempting to channel dear old Aunt Minnie, you're attempting to channel God.

"Oh, but it's real and séances are counterfeit."

Uh huh. <_<

[skyrider]

My thoughts on interpretation and prophesy?

I think if you're only exposed to them on a limited basis, like Wednesday night twig or Sunday night fellowship, they continue to hold some kind of mystique about them. In FellowLaborers, though, we were exposed to them a bare minimum of twice a day and frequently more than that. (It was a two year commitment. Do the math.) To use a familiar expression, "it got old fast". I had my doubts about interpretation and prophesy long before I had doubts about speaking in tongues.

Count me in this category as well.

With wierwille's teachings on the "inspiration manifestations".......it came down to how one DEFINES *inspiration*

and who wouldn't, with much prompting, be 'inspired' to encourage others?

Remember, were not talking revelation here. :B)

[Ham]

Who says (all) Seances are counterfiet?

well.. who knows..

First.. I've never seen any manifestation of the dead, living in the after-life.

Except.. for once, and it was only in a dream. Some poor sucker trying to reach some kind of closure on the way out of this existence.. but it was only a dream, or was it?

I couldn't prove this is true any more than somebody proving their "tongue" was really some known language as per Raf's challenge..

Mom hasn't come to me in the middle of the night, neither my long dead father.. maybe they've tried and I'm still too dense to listen

OH.. seances. It just seems to me.. you mix any thing like "worship manifestations" or messages from the dead.. or any other supposed, or unsupposed supernatural manifestation precluded with "now a message from our Sponsor". Followed by a request for "donations" or a sale.. even it it were real, once the greasy price tag is slapped on it, it is transfigured immediately to snake oil..

[waysider]

I find it a bit curious that Charles Fox Parham's Apostolic Faith Movement (focused on what we call the manifestations) started gaining traction not long after Spiritualism became in vogue. Parham's ministry bears some striking similarities to that of VPW, as well, aside from the financial aspect.

[waysider]

"Spiritualism also differs from occult movements, such as the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn or the contemporary Wiccan covens, in that spirits are not contacted to obtain magical powers (with the exception of power for healing). For example, Madame Blavatsky (1831–91), the founder of the Theosophical Society, only practiced mediumship to contact powerful spirits capable of conferring esoteric knowledge. Blavatsky did not believe these spirits were deceased humans, and held beliefs in reincarnation different from the views of most Spiritualists.[2] Spiritualists at that time viewed Theosophy as unscientific and both occultist and cult-like. Theosophists viewed Spiritualism as unsophisticated and uncosmopolitan.[10]"

(citation: see previous link)

[waysider]

Even more damning than hearing the same other people do TIP and Prophesy time after time after time is hearing yourself do it again and again and again and again. I don't think you get that sort of experience just hanging out with the local twig a couple times a week.

Edited October 10, 2012 by waysider

[Steve Lortz]

I believe I prophesied "for real" a couple of times during the seven years I was involved with TWI.

Only one of the incidents was during a "believers meeting", the other didn't have anything at all to do with any of Wierwille's definitions or occassions. The reason I think each of those incidents was genuine was beacause both times, somebody listening did a modern cultural equivalent of "falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is in you of a truth."

I don't think I ever did a genuine prophesy during the time I was involved with CES. I was just too confused about everything.

One time, toward the end of our involvement with CES, some of us went to the hospital to "minister" to a woman who was in there with cancer. My wife prophesied and said something like, "This is going to hurt for a little while, but it will soon be over. You are coming home to be with me." All the other "believers" in the group were horrified, but a few days later, the woman died.

I've prophesied on a number of occassions since leaving all involvement with all splinter groups. I don't even try to do it. It just happens spontaneously when I'm talking with somebody one-on-one. There is no formula. I usually don't realize I'm doing it until after it's all over. It doesn't surprise me anymore. Sometimes, these days, I become aware that I'm doing it in the middle of speaking. I hear people doing it all over the campus, both students and faculty, and they don't even realize that's what they are doing.

I think prophecy is simply allowing your mouth to speak uncensored out of the abundance of the love of God that is in your heart.

I think God does it at a level below consciouness, but I don't believe in the psychological definition of the "unconscious mind" anymore. I think the Bible uses the word "heart" to refer to the attitudes we have internalized through habit.

All of the TIP clap-trap in TWI, especially at excellors' sessions, was heavy-duty censoring of what came out of our mouths.

Love,

Steve

Edited October 10, 2012 by Steve Lortz

[geisha779]

I was reading some church history about tongues. It supports the idea it was for a sign to unbelievers, but I may be rethinking the way I look at speaking mysteries. It is easy enough to google and the accounts I read some spoke of many believing because of tongues....meaning they understood the words spoken. Worth a look at least.

Writing to the preaching evangelists who were yet living, Eusebius says: "Of those that flourished in these times, Quadratus is said to have been distinguished for his prophetical gifts. There were many others, also, noted in these times who held rank in the apostolic succession... the Holy Spirit also wrought many wonders as yet through them, so that as the Gospel was heard, men in crowds voluntarily and eagerly embraced the true faith with their whole minds." Eusebius AD 100

Make what you will of it. Is he speaking of tongues?

Edited October 10, 2012 by geisha779

[waysider]

Yea, my children, get out and vote.

(Politics from the pulpit)