SIT, TIP, Prophecy and Confession

[Raf]

It's a good read for a scientific study. It's published in a peer reviewed mainstream Christian theology journal.

And you're doing a good job representing it, especially considering your Satanic methods. (Too soon?)

:)

That was flipping funny.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Raf

[socks]

Gee, I wonder, yes....could it be....SATAN???!!!

Ha!

Actually this is bringing up a whole range of discussion that was never done in Way circles, to attempt to understand "what" the SIT is. It's one thing to say it's of spiritual origin, God's ways higher than our ways, etc. I get that. Can't analyze it okay, fine. But I think if a person went even a little down the path of receiving=believing they would have become aware that PFAL was teaching that the unseen spiritual realities they attempted to function within and invoke had effects, results, products, artifacts, stuff that was represented in their physical reality. I don't need to anyalyze something to have a verifiable result to admire, at the least.

But SIT as johniam noted was defined as "inspired", "inspirational" and brought forth from and by the "spirit" of the individual. That put it in a different category then something like a miracle of healing, for instance. VPW presented it as an operation of an ability that the individual had that was initiated BY THE INDIVIDUAL and under their own control to manage and "do".

Probably all of us, anyone who's ever gotten in front of a group of people to speak and gotten off for just a second, lost their place - has gone into "automatic" mode. I certainly have. It's like sliding over an icy floor in wet sneakers. There's no stopping - and little to no "thought" - It can be funny or down right embarrassing. I know if I get into that mode, to stop, collect myself and look at my notes which I hopefully have. If not, I have a method for pegging myself. But it happens.

Even the nature of speech - I don't plan every nuance and action of everything I "say". To speak out loud and be reasonably coherent let alone inspirational isn't that difficult to do - without any planning whatsoever. Rivers of wonderful wonderfulness flows out of my mouth, in abundance. Ask my wife, she'll tell you, happens all the time.

To do that in a framework of sounds, "words" and become proficient, even facile at it, isn't that difficult to do either.

Soooooooooooo. I'm not completely checked out on the free-speech part of this discussion, but that could be what people have done when they say they "SIT" as noted by others here. Yeah, I would say there is more to this than meets the syllabus, IMO.

[Raf]

Inspirational versus revelation is a Wierwillian distinction, not a Biblical one.

Nonetheless, it sounds like what's being described is:

SIT as taught by TWI will look, sound and feel exactly the same as free vocalization (which, I think it's been firmly established, any child or atheist can do).

Ok, so it looks like a duck, walks like a duck...

Everything else I'm thinking, I've already said.

[Raf]

Incidentally, I don't think Vern Poythress' paper can rightly be called a "scientific study," seeing as he doesn't appear to be doing the research himself or interpreting his findings. Looks more like he's reviewing other studies and interpreting them from a non-judgmental theological framework (which, when you think about it, would explain why he sounds like Samarin when he sticks to observable facts but more like you guys when he gets into the theological implications). In that light, it's unfair for me to have called him "laughably biased." A biased writer of such a work would have been judgmental and declared this all a bunch of hooey.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Raf

[waysider]

"YOU move your tongue, YOU move your lips, YOU form the words...."

In other words, YOU make a conscious effort to instigate the event. Wierwille got around the obvious flaw in this by saying that if it wasn't you who took the initiative, it would have to be possession, a lack of free will. That whole concept sounds to me like a rationalization of the obvious and has no scriptural basis of which I'm aware.

[excathedra]

oh yes SATAN rafael and deabolo (sp?) are they not the same in some language?????

--

i did like what socks said about some things god does is not for multitudes -- this has been my experience -- which is probably why i'm still alive and functioning lol

--

what else? i spoke in tongues before the way -- certainly didn't interpet or prophecy -- didn't know what the hell that was -- still not sure

my little sister told me i helped her speak in tongues

i'm not saying this for any other reason except to say it mwah

[Ham]

I wish some offshoot or some such would ask me for a word of exhortation and comfort just about now..

"You stupid sonsabitches.. get off of your dumbasses and religious high horses..

fer Gawd's sakes.. you are not God.

but try to be.. in your little arcane universes..

DO SOMETHING fer gawd's sake..

help out at the local soup kitchen..

do SOMETHING.

and after you've done SOMETHING.. do SOMETHING ELSE. I'm sure you can figure it out.."

sowy. It just hit me in the right place or something..

I already helped the local kitchen by preserving a few tomatoes. I'm just waiting for the next thing to do..

[OldSkool]

I wish some offshoot or some such would ask me for a word of exhortation and comfort just about now..

"You stupid sonsabitches.. get off of your dumbasses and religious high horses..

fer Gawd's sakes.. you are not God.

but try to be.. in your little arcane universes..

DO SOMETHING fer gawd's sake..

help out at the local soup kitchen..

do SOMETHING.

and after you've done SOMETHING.. do SOMETHING ELSE. I'm sure you can figure it out.."

sowy. It just hit me in the right place or something..

I already helped the local kitchen by preserving a few tomatoes. I'm just waiting for the next thing to do..

Definitely plenty of exhortation there.

[JavaJane]

I remember being pretty let down that the proof of the resurrection of Jesus Christ was that we had to do something that we were taught to do. Frankly, that didn't really seem like proof to me. I was expecting some sort of scientific evidence or maybe historical corroboration. Silly 16 year old me. And then I just told myself I was being too intellectual - the class was supposed to be taught so that anyone (implied: no matter how stupid) could understand. That's what my parents had told me at the beginning of the class, and if it was good enough for them...

[geisha779]

With all the perfect prayer, believing and manifesting going on in TWI.....there seems to be a real disconnect between the ministry of the Holy Spirit(for lack of a better term)and our sojourn in a Christ denying cult. If the Holy Spirit is the one who reveals Jesus as Lord.....and leads us into all truth, why were we so deceived? Why was Jesus really missing in our faith? Absent?

I can't reconcile the two.

[Ham]

I am beginning to think ministry of the Holy Spirit is done on an individual basis.

No organization needed.. sometimes it is rejected.

Bertrand Russel.. now this character, you could call him a womanizer, agnostic, etc, etc. Nowhere NEAR vic-like..

but when the rubber hit the road.. he COULD NOT follow a multitude to do evil..

[waysider]

Read some biographical information on Russell a few yews ago. Fascinating man.

Einstein said this of him:

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds ... "

Edited September 28, 2012 by waysider

[Goey]

I faked it.

Honestly, after about 6 months in TWI, I had serious doubts about SIT, Prophesy, and the other so-called manifestations as taught by TWI. Looking back I suppose I wanted them to be real, the genuine thing. So I stayed with it, thinking possibly that I was missing something. There was something wrong with me and I just wasn't getting it .

Early on, I felt guilty about my doubts since almost everyone else seemed so convinced. I did not express my doubts to anyone for whatever the reasons, but instead promoted SIT as taught by TWI even more emphatically as the real deal. No one ever expressed their doubts to me either.

As time when by, I observed that those who were in TWI who SIT a lot ( or claimed they did) , myself included, were not any better off spiritually than anyone else. As more time went by and more observations were made. I finally concluded that SIT ... as taught by TWI was a load of crap. But by this time I was 5 years or more out of TWI.

The Bible clearly says that SIT exists or that it at least existed in the early Church. I do not dispute that it may still exits and that somewhere there are folks that may understand it and practice it properly. However, I do not know who or where they are, and honestly am not looking. I don't care. I do not need SIT to be real to have "proof" of being born again or to buiild my spirit or the other things that were taught that SIT did for us.

Some of the biggest jerks, meanest people, and phonies I ever knew .... spoke in tongues a lot.

[chockfull]

With all the perfect prayer, believing and manifesting going on in TWI.....there seems to be a real disconnect between the ministry of the Holy Spirit(for lack of a better term)and our sojourn in a Christ denying cult. If the Holy Spirit is the one who reveals Jesus as Lord.....and leads us into all truth, why were we so deceived? Why was Jesus really missing in our faith? Absent?

I can't reconcile the two.

Nobody can. Why was Jesus missing? Because the false apostles and prophets running TWI were never and are not currently really building on Jesus Christ as the cornerstone of a church. They were building on their own egos, which dry up and blow away.

[Raf]

Goey? Is it really you?

[Raf]

Goey,

I would bet that you speak for many, many more people than the poll results would indicate. Took a lot of courage and integrity for you to share that.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Raf

[excathedra]

GOEY!!!!!!! i'm so happy to see you? how are you doing these days? love,ex

[Goey]

Goey,

I would bet that you speak for many, many more people than the poll results would indicate. Took a lot of courage and integrity for you to share that.

Hi Raf,

SIT was something that really bugged me for quite a few years. There was so much emphasis upon SIT, Revelation,Miracles, Healings, et. al. and so little upon the teachings of Jesus Christ and upon Charity and upon sharing the the true Gospel. With so many banging gongs & tinkling cymbals running around, (I include myself) it's a wonder we didn't all go deaf. Or maybe we did? I think so. I couldn't hear or even entertain the "truth" at times for all the noise.

Many of us were seeking "power" via SIT, Prophecy, Revelation, etc to launch us to mogdom, wealth, & celebrity, when we should have been seeking true charity. What I ended up with was frustration, disappointment, questions, and a hard-heart . And I spoke in tongues a lot.

Goey - Still a work in progress.

Good to hear from you Raf. and you too Exxy.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Goey

[skyrider]

SIT was something that really bugged me for quite a few years. There was so much emphasis upon SIT, Revelation,Miracles, Healings, et. al. and so little upon the teachings of Jesus Christ and upon Charity and upon sharing the the true Gospel. With so many banging gongs & tinkling cymbals running around, (I include myself) it's a wonder we didn't all go deaf. Or maybe we did? I think so. I couldn't hear or even entertain the "truth" at times for all the noise.

Many of us were seeking "power" via SIT, Prophecy, Revelation, etc to launch us to mogdom, wealth, & celebrity, when we should have been seeking true charity. What I ended up with was frustration, disappointment, questions, and a hard-heart . And I spoke in tongues a lot.

Goey......good to see you.

Yeah, for me.....whenever I got far away from the hq-noise and beating-the-sit-drum, the simple pleasures of life

came alive again. On the field, I would often delve into the four gospels and teach those truths in leaders' meetings

and fellowships.

Heck....as a Limb coordinator, I conducted many meetings WITHOUT the manifestations on display. I think that, deep down,

I often felt like sit/tip was a gonging of "look at me, look at me." Same thing about teaching, actually......it wasn't

about the one teaching, it was all about ministering from the heart of God's love to help others.

[penworks]

Many of us were seeking "power" via SIT, Prophecy, Revelation, etc to launch us to mogdom, wealth, & celebrity, when we should have been seeking true charity.

Oh yeah...charity. The greatest of these...how far away from it we often roamed while searching for power over every blasted situation, "unbeliever," etc. etc.

I'm reminded of the old guru story that goes something like this: The seeker asks the guru how to have more power. The guru asks: "Why do you seek power? What are you afraid of?"

Edited October 4, 2012 by penworks

[geisha779]

Nobody can. Why was Jesus missing? Because the false apostles and prophets running TWI were never and are not currently really building on Jesus Christ as the cornerstone of a church. They were building on their own egos, which dry up and blow away.

Yes, false teachers teach false doctrine.

False teachers teach an aberrant view of scripture. False teachers eyes are not full of God's glory or purpose, rather, they are full of adultery. False teachers never stop sinning, they are experts in greed, and they thrive by enticing unstable souls. They target people who are young in faith and burdened by sin. They seek those who are disillusioned with church and they seek them out for personal ego and gain.

The biggest false teacher of our particular club was the one who led most of us into TWI's version of SIT. Breath in, breath out, like..as..of..a.. rushing mighty wind. VP was the one who taught us what all those verses he used "really" meant. What he taught us is well outside of orthodoxy. Actually, that is what I loved about it.

Because of what he taught us, and he was so cunning, it can be difficult to look at these verses in any other light. It can be very difficult to see beyond that peculiar theology. It is all built together with the other things he taught us and we wanted to hear. I think it is really built around the denial of core Christian tenets.

Again, if the Holy Spirit is the one who guides us into all truth and reveals Jesus as Lord to us......and we were all perfectly praying to God by SIT in TWI, speaking mysteries, and we were to seek personal edification, and we were really being built up in the inner man by SIT. Why, were we so deceived?

The simple answer is...it was a lie. All of it. It is not biblical SIT, and what VP told us it was for or how we were to "use" it was just his twisted take on scripture. His own personal freak show on the Holy Spirit who was really MIA.

Edited October 4, 2012 by geisha779

[Raf]

Quick recap for those just joining us:

I've agreed not to use the terms "lying" or "faked" or variations of them in favor of "free vocalization," which in context has no religious or supernatural connotation. A person engaging in free vocalization is deliberately producing sounds and, consciously or subconsciously, seeking to produce sounds that emerge as a language. I believe that Wierwille deliberately led us into free vocalization and called it "speaking in tongues," and that we who perpetuated this teaching did so of a pure heart and conscience, not meaning to deceive or to lead anyone else into a deception (but doing so nonetheless).

I believe that this same process of free vocalization marks most if not all of what the modern Christian world refers to as "speaking in tongues." This blanket statement, admittedly, cannot be proved, but it CAN be disproved by anyone who speaks in tongues and produces a verifiable language.

I do not ask anyone to agree with me, but I do call on you to search your heart and be willing to admit the truth, as Goey, geisha and a couple of others have done. It doesn't make you less of a Christian to tell the truth: it makes you more of one.

I am not judging the Biblical experience of speaking in tongues and I understand that my beliefs raise some serious doctrinal questions. There are two threads exploring some of those questions in the doctrinal section, along with a third thread that provides links to some outside reading material.

If you disagree with me, I'm fine with that. I stand by my position, but I will not impose it on you anymore than you will impose yours on me.

Did I miss anything important?

Edited October 4, 2012 by Raf

[chockfull]

SIT was something that really bugged me for quite a few years. There was so much emphasis upon SIT, Revelation,Miracles, Healings, et. al. and so little upon the teachings of Jesus Christ and upon Charity and upon sharing the the true Gospel. With so many banging gongs & tinkling cymbals running around, (I include myself) it's a wonder we didn't all go deaf. Or maybe we did? I think so. I couldn't hear or even entertain the "truth" at times for all the noise.

Yeah. We were probably all deaf. At least speaking for myself I was.

Many of us were seeking "power" via SIT, Prophecy, Revelation, etc to launch us to mogdom, wealth, & celebrity, when we should have been seeking true charity. What I ended up with was frustration, disappointment, questions, and a hard-heart . And I spoke in tongues a lot.

Great advice.

[chockfull]

Yes, false teachers teach false doctrine.

False teachers teach an aberrant view of scripture. False teachers eyes are not full of God's glory or purpose, rather, they are full of adultery. False teachers never stop sinning, they are experts in greed, and they thrive by enticing unstable souls. They target people who are young in faith and burdened by sin. They seek those who are disillusioned with church and they seek them out for personal ego and gain.

The biggest false teacher of our particular club was the one who led most of us into TWI's version of SIT. Breath in, breath out, like..as..of..a.. rushing mighty wind. VP was the one who taught us what all those verses he used "really" meant. What he taught us is well outside of orthodoxy. Actually, that is what I loved about it.

Because of what he taught us, and he was so cunning, it can be difficult to look at these verses in any other light. It can be very difficult to see beyond that peculiar theology. It is all built together with the other things he taught us and we wanted to hear. I think it is really built around the denial of core Christian tenets.

Again, if the Holy Spirit is the one who guides us into all truth and reveals Jesus as Lord to us......and we were all perfectly praying to God by SIT in TWI, speaking mysteries, and we were to seek personal edification, and we were really being built up in the inner man by SIT. Why, were we so deceived?

The simple answer is...it was a lie. All of it. It is not biblical SIT, and what VP told us it was for or how we were to "use" it was just his twisted take on scripture. His own personal freak show on the Holy Spirit who was really MIA.

Yes, I agree with much of what you write here. VP and his successors were/are all Pharisees. Scripture instructs us to beware their leaven. Whatever path we are going to take choosing to rebuild our Christian lives, it has to be a new path, not traveling down existing TWI theology paths. You can't put new wine in old wineskins.

So the challenge comes in with the bit "it was a lie". The best lies have elements of truth within them to increase credibility. You can't summarily dismiss 100% of VP's doctrine. I mean he did teach the new birth, for instance. We're a little divided on where to go on this thread w/r to SIT. Some feel genuine in praying that way, others feel that rejecting it summarily as part of VP's corrupt doctrine is best. We've definitely learned that faking it is possible, pretty much scientifically proving that TWI's teaching that it was not possible to fake it was 100% erroneous. The published studies on this are pretty clear.

IMO the important part is the new wineskins. And my feelings on that are that's what's in the heart, not what's on the surface.

[geisha779]

To add to what Raf said....or to glom onto it really....I am not calling anyone a liar other than VP. I was fully persuaded myself, so, I don't have any higher ground to stand on....I participated in free vocalization for years, I led others into it, and I sold it with the rest.

And yes, there are things VP taught that were correct, like salvation by grace alone. What happened? Grace was perverted and Jesus was dismissed. It wasn't just the initiated that were troubled by grace as an occasion to sin, those things trickled right down. Something having elements of truth....is not truth. Yes, all really good lies....have an element of credibility.

There are Christians who teach sound doctrine, but it is very difficult to know who to trust or even to actually trust a teacher again. I was willing to give Benny Hinn the benefit of the doubt when I left TWI and started searching again, because I didn't know how to discern doctrine. He spoke my language as a charismatic. It never really occurred to me my perspective was the problem.

I think to unravel this picture we have to really challenge many things VP taught us, examine them, and consider another way to look at the same thing. It can be really difficult. I really don't believe we do it alone. God is with us in our search and there are Christians never caught up in TWI who understand Way theology and are willing to help.

And btw.... if someone wants to speak, pray, sing, or rap in tongues....by all means do it. You don't need my or any permission or approval.

Edited October 4, 2012 by geisha779