SIT, TIP, Prophecy and Confession

[Steve Lortz]

This is a sincere question....and quite away from the intelligent and detailed debate going on here. I am simple folk.....but, I am still curious why we thought we could improve, perfect, expand or excel in an unknown language. Anybody? And if we participated in trying to improve on the quality and fluency of a language supposedly unknown to us...... stepping back and genuinely reflecting.....doesn't that strongly imply we were really faking it?

I can exhibit a pretty good sized ego...some vanity and definitely pride, but even I understand my limitations. I can't excel in something completely foreign to me. I can't improve on something I genuinely don't understand at all.....and I can't increase my fluency in a language I don't know.

Sessions to excel seem a pretty ego based practice to me. Now, doctrinal issues are not central to my question, but if it is an ego based practice, then it appears to run at cross purposes with the instruction manual. No? I am sincere not ironic here.

Yet, I am asked to believe (Not directed at you Chockfull) it was a genuine experience with a tongue. I am starting to believe genuine tongues may have ceased.Without the evidence of an experience like that in Acts where the language was understood and it related a specific message.....I am now seriously questioning ALL modern accounts of SIT. Not just TWI.

I would actually love to be wrong.

The short answer is that Wierwille lied about SIT, interpretation and prophecy, and we believed him. I don't think Mark, Luke or Paul lied about tongues, interpretation and prophecy, but I have to admit that I don't currently understand exactly what they were saying about it. That's why I've been studying it for the past 18 years or so, and that's why I am submitting myself and my findings to the rigor of writing a bona fide masters thesis on the topic.

Love,

Steve

[geisha779]

Tone and tenor aside.....what about all the really probing questions that have been asked and the pointed observations that have been made? I don't think there are too many people here who ever again want to close their minds, stomp their feet, and pretend none of this is suspect.

I can see not caring, that is almost a logical place to go....I can see being resigned to never really knowing what happened.....and I can see believing we all faked it too.....but, what I find impossible is to believe it was ever genuine.

It is interesting that some, who have long since repudiated Jesus as Lord and have embraced another faith, still have the ability to manifest this phenomenon at will. This runs head long into some very heady and serious scripture. These are not people who don't understand what they are saying, but have made a clear and conscious declaration of repudiation. I don't believe God holds us hostage against our will. Besides, that whole thing about it being proof of eternal life.....not scriptural and diabolically opposed to faith. Jesus is Lord is how you know....not, I know Jesus is Lord and I am saved because I SIT.

This topic really did cause me considerable angst because I do love the Lord. I came up with a solution though....I just don't do it anymore. I really don't think I could if I wanted to.

Too Add: THANKS Steve, I agree...He lied. I love that you just simply said it!! :)

Edited September 20, 2012 by geisha779

[Raf]

That's called presenting your thesis statement, then, presenting the argument for your thesis statement.

That's the way genuine doctors do it!

Love,

Steve

Disagree. What he did was not present a thesis statement, but justify his refusal to draw the conclusion that his evidence clearly points to. It's his right, but it's not dispassionate research.

[Ham]

when a "student" can rock my world..

what a wonderful world it really is..

the square root of two is irrational. I asked them.. do you REALLY take my word that this is irrational?

I had to prove this to myself.. they will have to prove the same. Depending upon their destiny, anyway..

I can show you the proof.. the question is, can you understand it, or believe it's ramifications..

Sorry raf. I generally go back to my weakness. Math.. it's my weakest point..

[Steve Lortz]

...

A linguist could tell you whether different people are speaking the same language, even without recognizing the language itself, to a reasonable degree of certainty.

...

I am learning to my chagrin, that in many cases linguists can't tell that two people are writing in the same language when they are both writing koine Greek!

Love,

Steve

[waysider]

Next topic of discussion:

Stretched Coffee: Real or just a cruel hoax?

[Steve Lortz]

maybe Raph has a good reason to be abrasive. Well, assuming he really is.. it's sometime hard to read emotion and motivation in a written format..

What would you do if in one split second you realized everything you believe, or believed was just plain, wrong.

Maybe it is not as extreme as that..

for the person so "afflicted" (but I think it is really a divine(?) gift.) it is like death..

unfortunately the process is not very pleasant unless it proceeds quite rapidly..

I grok you, Ham!

Love,

Steve

[Ham]

gawd..

It's coffee, isn't it? stretched or not..

some caffeine is infinitely better than no damned caffeine..

[Ham]

I dunno.. the Squirrel needs more Cabernet..

in the real world, what I am looking at or for is..

a logical justification, for the current body to lose about 12 or so pounds. but weight slowly stays stable.

a low count of platelets without a visible blood loss..

larger than normal red blood cells..

this means what.. I dunno.

[Steve Lortz]

when a "student" can rock my world..

what a wonderful world it really is..

the square root of two is irrational. I asked them.. do you REALLY take my word that this is irrational?

I had to prove this to myself.. they will have to prove the same. Depending upon their destiny, anyway..

I can show you the proof.. the question is, can you understand it, or believe it's ramifications..

Sorry raf. I generally go back to my weakness. Math.. it's my weakest point..

I was thinking about pi when I was asking how we can know what a perfect language should look like. Correct me if I'm wrong, O, Bushy-Tailed-One, but if pi were converted to binary code, wouldn't pi contain ALL knowledge in EVERY language?

Love,

Steve

Can pi be converted to binary code?

Edited September 21, 2012 by Steve Lortz

[Ham]

I was thinking about pi when I was asking how we can know what a perfect language should look like. Correct me if I'm wrong, O, Bushy-Tailed-One, but if pi were converted to binary code, wouldn't pi contain ALL knowledge in EVERY language?

Love,

Steve

eventually, yes.. just most would not have the patience to wait..

[Steve Lortz]

This thread has advanced two pages while I caught up reading the four pages I missed earlier in the day!

Love,

Steve

[Steve Lortz]

gawd..

It's coffee, isn't it? stretched or not..

some caffeine is infinitely better than no damned caffeine..

Stretched coffee would NEVER have hacked it in the engineroom of the Pogy! You didn't get relieved if a spoon wouldn't stand up in a cup of the coffee you brewed!

Love,

Steve

[waysider]

When angels have believers meetings, do they speak in English?

[Ham]

my dear friend Raleigh Wert was on one of those submarines. He said among a few other statements:

the kitchen is always open, for whatever meal you can imagine, on a self-perpetuating environment..

they would HAVE to leave the subject of food open ended..

all the steaks you could even imagine..

no Diesel exhaust to endure. I mourn his passing..

we shared a common love- Morse

[Ham]

My friend is buried slightly on this side of mt Pleasant..

maybe this is poetic or something..

it's the same dull story .. I didn't have the time to be the friend I was supposed to be..

I imagine the same dull, lifeless story plays out, one time after another..

I dunno.

:)

[Raf]

I'm talking WITH geisha here, not necessarily TO her:

Tone and tenor aside.....what about all the really probing questions that have been asked and the pointed observations that have been made? I don't think there are too many people here who ever again want to close their minds, stomp their feet, and pretend none of this is suspect.

To which I'll add: If my tone and tenor have turned you off to my point of view, I feel bad. For you. Because it shouldn't be about people or personalities. It should be about the discussion, the points being made, your willingness to approach them with an open mind, and (put this first, last or middle) your faith. By allowing my tone to turn you off, you avoid the discussion, you don't deal with it. Then again...

I can see not caring, that is almost a logical place to go....I can see being resigned to never really knowing what happened.....and I can see believing we all faked it too.....but, what I find impossible is to believe it was ever genuine.

Exactly... you don't HAVE to deal with it. No one's forcing you or anyone else.

Ok, now I'm talking TO geisha:

It is interesting that some, who have long since repudiated Jesus as Lord and have embraced another faith, still have the ability to manifest this phenomenon at will. This runs head long into some very heady and serious scripture. These are not people who don't understand what they are saying, but have made a clear and conscious declaration of repudiation.

I don't find this difficult to reconcile with my position OR TWI's. If it's free-vocalization, it's just as easy for a Christian to do it is for a non-Christian. If it's really what it's advertised to be, then it's proof that no matter what these folks believe now, they are still born again of God's spirit because it's seed and it never goes away.

This topic really did cause me considerable angst because I do love the Lord. I came up with a solution though....I just don't do it anymore. I really don't think I could if I wanted to.

Sure you could, from either perspective.

[geisha779]

I'm talking WITH geisha here, not necessarily TO her:

To which I'll add: If my tone and tenor have turned you off to my point of view, I feel bad. For you. Because it shouldn't be about people or personalities. It should be about the discussion, the points being made, your willingness to approach them with an open mind, and (put this first, last or middle) your faith. By allowing my tone to turn you off, you avoid the discussion, you don't deal with it. Then again...

Exactly... you don't HAVE to deal with it. No one's forcing you or anyone else.

Ok, now I'm talking TO geisha:

I don't find this difficult to reconcile with my position OR TWI's. If it's free-vocalization, it's just as easy for a Christian to do it is for a non-Christian. If it's really what it's advertised to be, then it's proof that no matter what these folks believe now, they are still born again of God's spirit because it's seed and it never goes away.

Sure you could, from either perspective.

I probably should have said...."Opinion of tone and tenor aside"..... as I was trying to downplay that side discussion. Like you, I don't want that topic to distract from the points being made here. I once had an entire thread dedicated to my attitude because I said I was praying for someone. I think they thought I said I was killing kittens for sport...it went on and on and on. Good times! I think I will leave the issue of tone to others.

It is difficult, at the least, not to wonder about this subject.....it was so wrapped up in that theology and that theology was so wrapped up in many of our Christian identities. If we carry on in faith....it seems a very pertinent question. I know I faked prophecy and interpretation by rehearsing in my head, and tongues was curious and suspect, but, looking back....at the time I thought I was doing it. I don't believe that now.

My observation of those who have moved on to another faith was just one more thing to question. And while I really do wonder about Paul's comment concerning "Another spirit"....I am now unwilling to declare that the answer. Unlike VP, I cannot see black and white hearts walking down the street. I don't know what people were really thinking or what they had confessed. I don't want to be the person who tries and makes these judgements, it is way above my pay grade. So, I am mulling that verse over and having another look.

You are absolutely right though......your answer does fit and it is a difficult thing to dismiss. I heard RC Sproul once liken SIT to scat singing....wind across the vocal chords and that resonates with me. A free vocalization. He is also suspect of modern tongues.

I have appreciated this thread topic and the contributions on it immensely. Hubby and I had a great conversation about this today. He believes he faked it....and can still fake it, but he doesn't. Pointless really. His personal belief is tongues ceased with the Apostles after the church was established. He is a cessationist. We laughed as we realized we were both distancing ourselves in conversation as if we were observers, but the reality is....I ran those stupid practice sessions and HE ran the first one I sat through.

This also makes the revelatory gifts via TWI highly suspect too, but we can be confident people faked those. That doesn't seem shocking. It was used as a means of control, top on down to twig leader that was often used as control. Hard to argue with "Father told me". Was there any genuine mixed in? I don't know....but I imagine that was very rare.

[Raf]

I think discussions of tone detract from the discussion as much as the tone itself does.

This thread went on for a few pages before it got contentious, and even with the "lie" language in the first posts, it didn't start getting ugly until much later.

I'm not proposing a solution. Despite the pop psychology that's gone on here, there is little difference between how I've posted here and how I've posted in other threads. True, it's been a while since I decided to venture into all these discussions, so some of you might not remember that. But I assure you JohnWhereDidHeGo does not see any difference in how I'm dealing with him, because we've rarely been on the same side of anything. Oldiesman and I have had truces, but more arguments than truces. Mike, fuhgeddaboutit.

But now I'm not taking on Wierwille-worship or inordinate respect for Wierwillism. Now I'm looking at something that hits at the heart of many people's prayer lives. So it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that anyone would get deeply and personally upset. What surprises me is the expectation that I will NOT respond the way I have.

I do apologize for striking so close to everyone's hearts.

But the way I see it, that's only because a lie has been placed there that is very difficult and painful to root out.

Yeah, yeah. You don't agree with me. Ok, I get that.

But if you (or anyone reading) ever comes to the realization that, "shoot, you mean NO one has produced a verified, documented example of tongues of men? We ALL speak tongues of angels? ALL of us? Gee, I'm skeptical," know this: you're not alone. You're not the first. You won't be the last. Come on out. Faking a spiritual experience doesn't fool Him (and, you know, it doesn't fool you either).

If that doesn't apply to you, then it's not addressed to you. I have my belief, you have yours, they're incompatible and there's more than enough room for both.

If it does apply to you: I get it. And it's ok.

[Steve Lortz]

Steve had mentioned that he would like some sources for his current project. I supplied these studies and noted that they provide an abundance of citation to investigate.

Here is one of the sources the author of the article from Amazing Discoveries cited:

"Ecstatic language was a common form of worship in pagan temples.¹"

"1 - Vincent Bridges: "Paganism in Provence," Journal of the Western Mystery Tradition (2004)"

http://www.jwmt.org/v1n6/provence.html

I'll be durned if I can find any references to thousands of pagans speaking in tongues before the day Of Pentecost! I can't even find any references to ecstatic language being a common form of worship in pagan temples. Just that there were a lot of pagan temples in Provence...

Read it for yourself.

Love,

Steve

Edited September 21, 2012 by Steve Lortz

[Raf]

gawd..

It's coffee, isn't it? stretched or not..

some caffeine is infinitely better than no damned caffeine..

Deluded liars.

There's no such thing as coffee.

Most people don't realize that speaking in tongues was borrowed from the ancient Greeks. Originally done by the Pythoness of the Oracle at Delphi as far back as the 4th century BCE.

Google that:

https://www.google.com/search?q=speaking+in+tongues+delphi

Or directly: http://ecstaticspeech.blogspot.com/2007/07/non-christians-speak-in-tongues-too.html

The crap belief that it came on pentecost and is proof that you're born again is just more snake oil.

Christianity has nothing original.

Reposting (without checking links first) for Steve.

[geisha779]

............................................................................

But the way I see it, that's only because a lie has been placed there that is very difficult and painful to root out.

............................................................................

But if you (or anyone reading) ever comes to the realization that, "shoot, you mean NO one has produced a verified, documented example of tongues of men? We ALL speak tongues of angels? ALL of us? Gee, I'm skeptical," know this: you're not alone. You're not the first. You won't be the last. Come on out. Faking a spiritual experience doesn't fool Him (and, you know, it doesn't fool you either).

Excellent point....we were not faking God out. What a relief to just say......I faked it, I am sorry. . . . .and be thankful for the gifts God has actually given to me. And when I struggle with prayer....and sometimes I do......I have to deal with it up close and personal and use my words. No fake fall back position!

[johniam]

quote: I am simple folk.....but, I am still curious why we thought we could improve, perfect, expand or excel in an unknown language. Anybody?

1 Cor. 14:4a - He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself...

[socks]

I speak in tongues. It's somewhat different than what I first experienced in the Way, from PFAL's teaching. It doesn't "sound" the same, if I can put it that way, and it doesn't have a "language sound" the way it was described in PFAL. I consider it private, personal. I talk about it with other Christians and have met those who do, those who don't. The fact that you Raf see it as a false, faked, counterfeit thing doesn't concern me to be honest, not because I don't respect your opinion but rather that I don't consider it my business to be telling you or anyone else that they have to. You've stated your position plainly. It seems clear, to me anyway.

I'm glad to see the level of honesty that's here. I think it's better to be honest to ourselves and God and not BS either one, as much as possible. Whatever gets us to being honest and truthful is good. I'm only chiming in here as a side note that I "do" that and I consider it a significant part of my personal prayer life. I wouldn't get into detailed one - to - one on it online, can't think of anything that hasn't been already said to be honest. It is what it is for me.

[OldSkool]

To which I'll add: If my tone and tenor have turned you off to my point of view, I feel bad. For you. Because it shouldn't be about people or personalities. It should be about the discussion, the points being made, your willingness to approach them with an open mind, and (put this first, last or middle) your faith. By allowing my tone to turn you off, you avoid the discussion, you don't deal with it. Then again...

No. You are speaking in absolutes. I stated:

Personally, all you have accomplished with me is I find it hard to consider your point of view.

So. Though, I have found the overall discourse provocative in a good way, the manner with which you state your position on an internet forum doesn't have to have an edge. Especially on a topic that is personal. And I will state again. I have read volumes of your posts on other topics and did not get the same edge.

I really can't say that I am personally offended. I just thought I would let you know what I thought, since I have endured 23 pages of what you think.

Again. Carry on. Myself, and Wordwolf have mentioned the same thing to you. If you don't care then that's fine too. Prove whatever point you have to prove. That's the point of an internet forum.

Edited September 21, 2012 by OldSkool