SIT, TIP, Prophecy and Confession

[JavaJane]

Wait now just hold the bleep on one bleeping minute.

You define yourself as a Catholic AND Buddhist AND Pagan?

And you speak in tongues?

Loving it.

Like a rock! Sing it with me everybody! Like a rock!

Yup. Now that I don't have to be just like everyone else, I'm taking advantage of it. I love the ritual and oldness of the Catholic Church (plus, they have Jesus and social justice, and acknowledge an ascended female); I love the thought processes and reincarnation aspects of Buddhism; and I am drawn to God represented with different aspects in nature which is pagan (and the whole God/Goddess thing - I believe God is both and neither.)

And on top of that I SIT... and this is what I would have ended up a lot quicker if TWI hadn't taken my family in when I was 12. I was headed there already at that age. I SIT first around the age of 9 or 10. Didn't know what yo call it, but it started after having serious deep thoughts about God, Jesus, heaven and hell, and death. It was somehow connected to that in my head, and when I started doing it, I felt better and stopped worrying about what was going to happen to me when I died.

[geisha779]

Just a question... what if Chockfull's private prayer is for someone else? Would that edify the body?

I think this is a great question! Really, I do. :)

My question back would be, how would we know if he was praying for someone? How would he even know? Unless. . . . there was someone there to interpret. Which is exactly what they were supposed to do in an assembly to build up the body. So, no, I really don't think it would edify the body or Chockfull for that matter. Just my opinion....nothing more. I have to add that I am more than happy to respectfully disagree with Chockfull and seek after love and not contention.

God has fully equipped us to pray for each other with our understanding. Jesus prayed for specific people. John 17 in the High Priestly prayer of Jesus....He prays for His disciples....He prays for those who would believe.....He prays for what He will go through....He prays for His Glory in a sense. Jesus was the one who gave us the example of how prayer should be. Our Father who Art in Heaven. They asked Him how to pray and He answered directly. We have examples of corporate prayer in scripture and a precious and intimate look into the Lord's most private prayers in the garden.

So much of what VP taught really doesn't fit when you start breaking it down. All believers are commanded to be filled with the HS, but not all believers SIT. In our twigs the "manifestations" were nothing more than what God has already given us with scripture. At times, it was a whole lot less. It was nothing more than what we should have already had built up in our hearts.

Another question might be ....what actually is more edifying....having someone pray for you with words you don't understand and never will unless someone interprets or having someone pray from their heart, words to the Lord, that not only intercede for you, but, minister love that you can comprehend?

Edited September 19, 2012 by geisha779

[Steve Lortz]

A little unfairness at work here. My position has effectively been shut down by the Declaration that my line of inquiry is satanic. No honest discussion of my position is therefore possible

I don't think your position has been effectively shut down, except perhaps by some people who don't want to seriously consider what you have to say. You have been honest about something we were trained to NOT be honest about, and even though I don't believe that my experience has been the same as yours, I can't deny that YOU are the expert on YOUR experience. Personally, I actually agree with chockful and excathedra, but I would be foolish not to consider the things that you and geisha have to say, and I would be unloving to treat either of you with any less respect than I would desire to receive from you.

I had a blood pressure spike late in July. My doc doubled my dose of generic Paxil and added generic Zoloft to my regimen. I spent the month of August with the primary mission of sleeping whenever I needed to, and it took the whole month to get used to the adjustment. Maybe my mellowness is just the meds talking. I'm not glued to this the way I used to be back in the good old days of Actual Errors.

It might be helpful if we address specific responses to specific people so we don't get inadvertantly perturbed. I don't think exaggeration or snarkiness are useful when peoples' feelings are running so hign. Probative questions are more useful than argumentative ones. We just need to respect each others' points of view, and not regard an expression of difference as a personal attack... ALL the way around.

I am thankful for each and every one of you, and your willingness to engage in genuine dialogue!

Love,

Steve

[Raf]

Let's put it this way, Steve, and take me out of it on a personal level: if you think it is devilish to test your practice of speaking in tongues to determine whether you're actually producing a language or it's just gibberish that you made up without any supernatural interference, then there is no way for you to prove me wrong (and we have already agreed that proving me right is, in a real sense, impossible. Proving me wrong should be easy, except that doing so is caving in to a Satanic temptation).

How bleeping convenient.

[waysider]

“Sometimes people don't want to hear the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed.”

........Friedrich Nietzsche

[johniam]

old man riverrrrrrr...

ribbuh. RIBBUH!

[Raf]

For once I agree with JohnHeIs.

[penworks]

Any particular reason you did not include an option like:

I sincerely thought I was doing something real as described by Wierwille's teaching, but after I left TWI, I've doubted the value or meaning of speaking in tongues.

BTW - I spoke in tongues before I heard any of TWI's teachings and before I heard anyone from TWI speak in tongues. I'm not sure how to account for it other than it being a type of altered state of consciousness. Before I met anyone from TWI, a woman in the group called Young Life had told me that one day I would speak in tongues. She said it was a gift from God. She told me this right after she had prayed for me in English and then she spoke in tongues outloud right after she prayed in English. Her tongues language sounded like French to me.

Later after I met Way people, one of them told me they could teach me how to speak in tongues. At first, I worried they were wrong about that. Young Life people had said no one could teach you because it was a gift from God. But before the Way believers had the chance to "instruct me" I did it on my own while praying.

So the question that's haunted me is: did I have a genuine speaking in tongues event, one that was a gift from God, or was I only immitating what that lady had done? I know that my "language" did not sound French or like any other language I'd heard before. I could stop and start as I wished, like I learned later from TWI. But I wonder whether the power of suggestion, from both the Young Life lady, and later from the Way person, played into my experience. Whatever the "real" explanation, I know I enjoyed it sometimes but I no longer feel the need for it.

[waysider]

It's a learned behavior.

(Not necessarily the actual words or sounds, but, the behavior itself.)

If the example group does it in a frenzied, chaotic sort of fashion, that's the behavior you'll adapt.

If the example group does it in an orderly, regimented fashion, that's the behavior you'll adapt.

[waysider]

Food for thought:

The Way taught that TIP is God talking to you. Along comes a splinter and teaches that, no, it's you talking to God. At the very least, one one them must be wrong. So, here's my question. If you are one of the people who did it both ways, did you ever sense at some point that you might be faking it? Because, logic dictates you must have been.

[Raf]

True, I left out possible replies that would be either more diplomatic or reflect uncertainty on the part of the person responding. Mea culpa. Your reproof is well taken.

Only you know deep in your heart whether you experienced something supernatural or you imitated the method (not the sounds) out of a sincere hunger to manifest a spiritual gift. My belief is mine, but you are not obligated to agree with me. That's what I believe happened in TWI. We were encouraged, under enormous peer pressure, to start speaking. Once we started, we were immediately discouraged from even thinking that we were faking it. Such doubt was devilish, we were told. People we loved and respected were right there with us, encouraging us, validating us, congratulating us. And heck, it IS in the Bible.

I contend that the initial erasure of doubt by Wietwille was the point of no return in our self-deception. Everything that came after was from a sincere heart, and calling it a lie seems, even to me, a bit cruel.

But not more cruel than the lie itself. They invaded my hunger for the things of God and filled it with a phony experience. That offends me, more than the accusation that I've resorted to Satanic methods to prove my point, more than the fact that they charged me money for the privilege of turning myself into a deluded follower.

Yes, I am singularly responsible for what I did. It pained me to come to this realization. But God has known it all along, hasn't He. So the only person I was kidding was myself and all of you.

So I apologize for what I did. If you did not lie, wow. I'm in awe. In fact, as politely as I can say something so "cruel," I can't honestly say I believe you. Sorry if that upsets you. It should upset you. The question is why should you be upset.

How you approach that question determines the course of our conversation.

[Raf]

Food for thought:

The Way taught that TIP is God talking to you. Along comes a splinter and teaches that, no, it's you talking to God. At the very least, one one them must be wrong. So, here's my question. If you are one of the people who did it both ways, did you ever sense at some point that you might be faking it? Because, logic dictates you must have been.

CES actually short-circuited this logic by claiming that TWI's interpreters were actually manifesting prophecy. So TWI people must conclude that CES people are faking interpretations or, at least, allowing their understanding to interfere with a genuine interpretation.

Yes, I agree with you, Waysider. But the trap you laid out won't spring.

[Rejoice]

I think this is a great question! Really, I do. :)

So much of what VP taught really doesn't fit when you start breaking it down.

What never made sense to me was VP said that you had to speak in tons A LOT to build up the spirit. If SIT is God's gift that is perfect, as He is perfect, why would we ever have to 'perfect' it?

And no, I don't feel the need to SIT anymore; the chatter gets in the way of my pure, heartfelt longing to connect and hear from Him.

[Raf]

What never made sense to me was VP said that you had to speak in tons A LOT to build up the spirit. If SIT is God's gift that is perfect, as He is perfect, why would we ever have to 'perfect' it?

A. Because the more you fake it, the more authentic it sounds. And the more you do it in private, the more you invest yourself in the lie.

B. Oh, you meant what's the nonsense reason they TRIED to give? Yeah, well, it was building up your inner, new man. You know, your physical body needs exercise. So does your spirit.

(But the real answer is A.)

[JavaJane]

I could never figure out what VP meant by "tongues cannot be counterfeited"... I always thought that was a pile of poo. It led me to start reading about tongues outside of twi literature. I've read some of the research waysider references prior to leaving twi trying to find evidence of what VP stated about counterfeit SIT. Never found ANYTHING to back up his statement.

[chockfull]

Any particular reason you did not include an option like:

I sincerely thought I was doing something real as described by Wierwille's teaching, but after I left TWI, I've doubted the value or meaning of speaking in tongues.

BTW - I spoke in tongues before I heard any of TWI's teachings and before I heard anyone from TWI speak in tongues. I'm not sure how to account for it other than it being a type of altered state of consciousness. Before I met anyone from TWI, a woman in the group called Young Life had told me that one day I would speak in tongues. She said it was a gift from God. She told me this right after she had prayed for me in English and then she spoke in tongues outloud right after she prayed in English. Her tongues language sounded like French to me.

Later after I met Way people, one of them told me they could teach me how to speak in tongues. At first, I worried they were wrong about that. Young Life people had said no one could teach you because it was a gift from God. But before the Way believers had the chance to "instruct me" I did it on my own while praying.

So the question that's haunted me is: did I have a genuine speaking in tongues event, one that was a gift from God, or was I only immitating what that lady had done? I know that my "language" did not sound French or like any other language I'd heard before. I could stop and start as I wished, like I learned later from TWI. But I wonder whether the power of suggestion, from both the Young Life lady, and later from the Way person, played into my experience. Whatever the "real" explanation, I know I enjoyed it sometimes but I no longer feel the need for it.

Penworks,

My life experiences on this topic are similar to yours. I first received and manifested praying in high school with one other outstanding young man - a Christian athlete. His life was a witness and I trusted his guidance. We prayed, he SIT, and then I did. I never have stopped. It in my experience enhances my prayer life and relationship with God. I see verses that talk about praying with my understanding and praying in the spirit as distinct and separate practices, otherwise why would both be talked about in the same sentence? That initial receiving incident - there was no complicated rote mechanical teaching like in TWI. It was simple. We prayed, we asked God for something, and we received.

Some on this thread want to convince me that I was deceiving myself there, or that somehow I'm mistaken and that sharing my Christian life and experience is vaunting myself up somehow, and that my experience is against what the Bible teaches.

To those all I can say is I trust God more than men. And there is a verse (I know it's in TWI's FNC, but that doesn't mean it isn't true) - that talks about if you ask God for a fish will He give you a stone.

To all of my skeptics out there, sorry. But I'm not going to retroactively believe my Father gave me a stone, when in fact He gave me a fish that satisfies unending hunger.

[Raf]

JavaJane: How do you know you didn't counterfeit tongues?

Why, Ol' VP TOLD you that counterfeiting tongues was impossible! SO you couldn't counterfeit it if you tried!

Let's be fair: what he said/meant was that a genuine experience of producing a language you've never spoken before cannot be brought forth by a Satanic or demonic power. Speaking in tongues MUST be of God, if it produces the tongues of men or of angels.

Wierwille was very clever here: he said it could never be counterfeited on a spiritual level: if you are REALLY speaking in tongues, then it REALLY is of God. But he never said it couldn't be faked. He just avoided that subject altogether. If we filled in that it couldn't be faked, that was our doing, not his.

Then, of course, he taught us how to fake it and discouraged us from admitting it.

Chockfull: If God gives you neither a fish nor a stone, and you decide to make a bowl of chili instead and call it a God-given fish, I'm not going to doubt you ate something. It's just not a God-given fish, no matter what you call it. Of course, you won't let us look at the chili to determine whether it really is a fish, so...

Edited September 19, 2012 by Raf

[chockfull]

But not more cruel than the lie itself. They invaded my hunger for the things of God and filled it with a phony experience. That offends me, more than the accusation that I've resorted to Satanic methods to prove my point, more than the fact that they charged me money for the privilege of turning myself into a deluded follower.

Raf,

I understand from my analogy why you think I'm calling you Satanic. But really that is not my intent, any more than if I said you were playing "devil's advocate" that you literally were an attorney for Satan. I believe that you feel cheated by TWI in many ways. I do too. Questioning what TWI taught, and exposing what I agree with you probably was a whole lot of faking and deception going on in this field is healthy and I have nothing against it. But it does not compel me to throw the baby out with the bathwater. And honestly for my life, if it were not for multiple distinct and unrelated independent confirmations of this, I would likely do just that.

I really do believe that God does not intend for that gift to be proven scientifically, and that it truly is personal for every believer's edification and prayer life. I believe it from scriptures, and from my experience I have proven over and over privately between myself and God.

Yes different Christians have different gifts. I am not 100% sorted out on the entirety of I Cor. 12-14 separating out TWI teaching from truth. There's a lot in there. I will say I never saw less of the fruit of practicing I Cor 13 the love chapter than I did in TWI, so in that respect even if their teaching was 100% accurate on the rest it doesn't matter. And I don't believe that their teaching was 100% accurate on the rest. But there is some blend in there I think is true.

Maybe in years to come I will have time to delve into that in-depth, and sort that out verse by verse - truth from error - TWI expose style. I'm sure then I will garner to myself many more skeptics and haters. I can already hear it. They will say I'm another cheap offshoot of TWI. They will say to go get a DD degree. They will say a lot of other stuff. I'll really have to pray about that to see if it is something I feel God is leading me to do and share or not.

Chockfull: If God gives you neither a fish nor a stone, and you decide to make a bowl of chili instead and call it a God-given fish, I'm not going to doubt you ate something. It's just not a God-given fish, no matter what you call it. Of course, you won't let us look at the chili to determine whether it really is a fish, so...

And if you want to throw babies out with bathwater, and mix excrement in with your fish dish and say that it doesn't taste like fish, then convince everyone else that they are eating excrement, then it's a free country. More power to you.

[Raf]

Chockfull, I don't take the "Satanic" thing personally. As I said, I'm calling you deluded at best, a liar at worst. We're beyond even. It's ok.

But you have to recognize that once you have labeled the attempt to ascertain whether you are REALLY producing a language a "Satanic temptation," you have effectively shut the door on that line of inquiry. I can now not prove my belief that you've (innocently and with every good-hearted intention) fooled yourself into thinking there's a genuine spiritual experience going on.

Hey, if that's your position, far be it from me to rob you of it.

All I'm saying is that you cannot, cannot turn around and argue that I have not proved my point when it comes to YOUR experience. I have not proved my point because, frankly, you won't let me.

Or God won't let you let me.

[chockfull]

Wierwille was very clever here: he said it could never be counterfeited on a spiritual level: if you are REALLY speaking in tongues, then it REALLY is of God. But he never said it couldn't be faked. He just avoided that subject altogether. If we filled in that it couldn't be faked, that was our doing, not his.

Then, of course, he taught us how to fake it and discouraged us from admitting it.

Wierwille was a d0uch3b@g. Pardon my French He was a false representative of Jesus Christ. But he doesn't change the power of the real thing.

[Raf]

And if you want to throw babies out with bathwater, and mix excrement in with your fish dish and say that it doesn't taste like fish, then convince everyone else that they are eating excrement, then it's a free country. More power to you.

Well, shoot, I was getting hungry until you said that.

Remember that scene in Hook when all the Lost Boys are having dinner and Peter notices that there's just NOTHING on the table, until the end of the scene when he learns to use his imagination and he can finally see the food and play with it and there's a huge foodfight and he's completely satisfied with his meal and his drink? Remember that scene? Heartwarming, wasn't it?

Here's what's missing from that scene: no matter how satisfied those kids felt, they still had not had anything to eat or drink. No amount of imagining you ate and drank will satisfy your real hunger and thirst.

Well, except maybe in Neverland.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Raf

[Steve Lortz]

Let's put it this way, Steve, and take me out of it on a personal level: if you think it is devilish to test your practice of speaking in tongues to determine whether you're actually producing a language or it's just gibberish that you made up without any supernatural interference, then there is no way for you to prove me wrong (and we have already agreed that proving me right is, in a real sense, impossible. Proving me wrong should be easy, except that doing so is caving in to a Satanic temptation).

How bleeping convenient.

Did I every say considering your proposition is caving into satanic temptation? I think Wierwille's advocacy of closed mindedness was anti-biblical. Proverbs 18:13 says it's foolish and shameful to answer a matter [dabar - word AND deed] before you've examined it. Proverbs 15:28 says that the heart of the righteous studies to answer, but the mouth of the wicked pours out evil things. We're spozed to think about what we're saying, and in order to do that well, we have to deeply consider what our correspondents are saying. If we just give the Pavlovian responses Wierwille trained us to give, then our mouths are pouring out evil things.

Please don't conflate the things I advocate with things that other people post on this thread!

Love,

Steve

[chockfull]

All I'm saying is that you cannot, cannot turn around and argue that I have not proved my point when it comes to YOUR experience. I have not proved my point because, frankly, you won't let me.

Or God won't let you let me.

You can't prove your point because it's not meant to be proven like Newton's laws or Moore's law. Faith is not scientific at a very core level.

It's not me that's preventing you. In my experience and opinion trying to force God into man's box and laws is just going to make you look foolish. You just end up with a poor imitation again, like TWI, and a handful of sand.

I'd rather just talk to the Father, and try to follow His lead. I'm not that great at it, but I try.

[Raf]

Did I ever say considering your proposition is caving into satanic temptation?

No, no, I said "IF" you say. "IF." I was explaining why I felt that shuts down conversation.

I think Wierwille's advocacy of closed mindedness was anti-biblical. Proverbs 18:13 says it's foolish and shameful to answer a matter [dabar - word AND deed] before you've examined it. Proverbs 15:28 says that the heart of the righteous studies to answer, but the mouth of the wicked pours out evil things. We're spozed to think about what we're saying, and in order to do that well, we have to deeply consider what our correspondents are saying. If we just give the Pavlovian responses Wierwille trained us to give, then our mouths are pouring out evil things.

Please don't conflate the things I advocate with things that other people post on this thread!

Love,

Steve

OK!

[chockfull]

Well, shoot, I was getting hungry until you said that.

Remember that scene in Hook when all the Lost Boys are having dinner and Peter notices that there's just NOTHING on the table, until the end of the scene when he learns to use his imagination and he can finally see the food and play with it and there's a huge foodfight and he's completely satisfied with his meal and his drink? Remember that scene? Heartwarming, wasn't it?

Here's what's missing from that scene: no matter how satisfied those kids felt, they still had not had anything to eat or drink. No amount of imagining you ate and drank will satisfy your real hunger and thirst.

Well, except maybe in Neverland.

Is God real? Is He personal? Of course not. It's just all this magic pixie dust.

I'm glad we can resort to fairy tale remakes to document our positions.

Now, remember in Twilight where the vampire and the werewolf both love the same girl? And that love saves them all? Yeah.