SIT, TIP, Prophecy and Confession

[Raf]

Cool. Peace out.

[geisha779]

Well, I don't think you are the bad guy Raf....it is just a challenging topic for some.

I was trying to remember what I thought when I first SIT via TWI. I did it before the class while reading RTHST. I remember sitting there breathing in and out and just let it rip. My best friend did it before the class too. It was actually a little anticlimactic. They wouldn't let us "manifest" in twig until we had completed the intermediate class. . . . maybe? I am pretty sure, but we took it right away.

I do remember, I simply believed everything I read and just did it. With hindsight....I think I was just extremely gullible and susceptible to suggestion. I was barely 19 and surrounded and a bit suffocated by people who seemed so very vested in me SIT. I didn't want to let them down and I didn't really understand the scriptural references so I was very intimidated by others knowledge.

It was the perfect storm. I got caught in a cult.

Absolutely. . . . ,interpretation and prophecy would run through my head before being called on. It was a little nerve wracking to be put on the spot like that. I can remember making sure the tongues and message were of equal length. Yeah....gotta be real here....I totally faked that stuff.

The tongues....I haven't really a clue what that was, but it wasn't a real language and nobody I ever ran into recognized it. It was kinda just gibberish.

[Raf]

Communal self delusion. We encouraged each other to keep up the lie.

I don't think anyone who did it is bad. Our desire to love and be the best for God was exploited by a huckster and his power mad minions.

If they thought TIP was really God speaking through us, they never would have abused so many in God's name.

But hey, disagree with me. It's all good.

[geisha779]

Although I think what we did in TWI was a counterfeit and genuine tongues are probably pretty rare.....this study is kind of interesting. Amazing the amount of people who are willing to SIT on You Tube! I even found an old TruthorTradition video on the subject.

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/3wwmEjkpI0c" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>

[johniam]

quote: Communal self delusion. We encouraged each other to keep up the lie.

That is YOUR standard. I'm not subject to your standard. So what did you do when you spoke in tongues at fellowship or at excellor sessions? Some Spanish version of pig latin, or just jibberish?

[WordWolf]

It was from a little paperback book.. Angels of Light? Or something like that.

It was a little paperback that new students in the advanced class were supposed to read. It probably should have been called "how to perform an exorcism, in three easy lessons"..

No,

"Angels of Light" was like "the Challenging Counterfeit"-

a book about things people claimed were of God, but were either

staged or supernatural and evil in origin.

(Depending on your POV.)

The book painted with a broad brush- it said refusal to believe in

The Trinity was proof of evil supernatural influence.

I'm not sure what book that was in. I know none of the books I read

contained them. I also know that the definitions started with things

Leonard said which vpw later larded full of multi-syllabic words that

only made things harder to understand-and introduced error as well.

[chockfull]

Communal self delusion. We encouraged each other to keep up the lie.

You know while I may not agree with that w/r to this thread topic, in a broader sense this is an accurate description of how we were in TWI overall. Different groups of people within TWI (Corps, AC Grads, Class grads, etc.) would keep reminding each other of the nobler godly motives and sweep things under the rug that didn't fit into that.

In that sense, absolutely. Communal self deception.

[WordWolf]

(snip)

No, you're forcefully implying that all twi SIT was fake.

[That's his opinion.

You're not doing much to disprove his point-

and this is coming from someone who disagrees with him!]

Mass delusion? Those words are not found in scripture. They ARE found in Freud's essay 'Civilization and its discontents' however, He used those exact words to describe all religions. Nice to know whose side you're working for.

[Just because a phrase is not found in Scripture is not a guarantee it is false.

"Electricity" is not found in any Bible, and we all appreciate having THAT.

Just because a phrase is repeated by Freud- IF it was repeated by Freud-

is no guarantee it is true OR false.

Much of his speculations in Psychology seem disproven

(he extrapolated from a non-representative sample to the entire world),

but he was correct that people have "unconscious" desires and impulses.

But anything should be examined on its own merits.

Heck, I don't automatically disount anything vpw said just because he said it,

and neither does Ralph!

(We agree, last I checked, Jesus is the Christ, and vpw said that, for example.)

So,

Raf has an opinion that we were led into practicing a lie,

and because of that, he's working for FREUD????

I bet that doesn't pay well- Freud's been dead a long time.

Honestly,

that's not going to convince anyone you're correct.]

The term "inspirational manifestations" is not in the Bible. SIT is by inspiration, not revelation... Is an expression that cannot be found in the Bible. You are therefore barred from using those terms.

P.S., johniam, I think it's fundamentally dishonest of you to cut my quote off where you did, as though I said nothing relevant after that. I specifically addressed the point you made, and it should embarrass you to ignore that.

Then again, that would require humility.

[Oh, he did that again?

Let's see...

The second quote was someone else, but John's refusal to use the simple

"Reply"button after more than a decade to learn to use it obscures that.

So, you meant the first part...

Hm, looks like you DID address it in the same post...]

I'm not disputing that the Bible says believers can speak in tongues. If you disagree with that, ok by me. It's irrelevant to my point. My point is that I faked it. I encourage others who faked it to come clean. Period. My point ends there.

In addition, I happen to believe we ALL faked it, but sincere people disagree with me. I'm okay with that too. But when I am asked to prove that other people are lying, well, that's when the gloves come off, because it's bullcrap to demand that I prove you're lying. Much easier for you to prove you're telling the truth. But you can't. So you say that something that's easy to verify is impossible to verify. Then you call me names and sic Wierwille on me. LO EFFIN L.

My "to whom addressed" got all mangled in this post, for which I apologize. Good to see you, Geisha!

Edited September 17, 2012 by WordWolf

[chockfull]

quote: Communal self delusion. We encouraged each other to keep up the lie.

That is YOUR standard. I'm not subject to your standard. So what did you do when you spoke in tongues at fellowship or at excellor sessions? Some Spanish version of pig latin, or just jibberish?

Ha - what did VP do? Lo shanta ka malakacita lo shanta.

To me looking back all the stuff I heard from him he said was tongues seems to me like made up gibberish. Plus he admitted to doing that in front of a stadium in hsi account in the Way living in love.

[Raf]

quote: Communal self delusion. We encouraged each other to keep up the lie.

That is YOUR standard. I'm not subject to your standard. So what did you do when you spoke in tongues at fellowship or at excellor sessions? Some Spanish version of pig latin, or just jibberish?

I did the same thing you do, John. I babbled, trying to make it sound like a convincing language. Then I made up some platitude that sounded like what I thought God would say if He were in the room. You know darned well how I faked it, because you do it all the time.

[Raf]

Spanish version of pig Latin...

Did that sumgun just pull the race card on me? Seriously?

[dabobbada]

Spanish version of pig Latin...

Did that sumgun just pull the race card on me? Seriously?

Naaaaaah !!!

The Indy 500 has been over for several months now.

Why,... we're even past Labor day.

Summers gone..

But look around,

leaves are brown now

And the sky

is a hazy shade of winter

[Raf]

Here's something I didn't think of until this morning.

One side of this debate has claimed that they have, in a tangible and indisputable way, tapped into the power of Almighty God, creator of heaven and earth, He who could end my very existence with but a thought, He who parted the Red Sea, leveled the walls of Jericho, stopped the rotation of the earth so that the sun could stand still long enough for a battle to be won... He who raised the dead, raised His Son to eternal life, who is intent on establishing His Almighty and Everlasting kingdom on earth for all time!

You have tapped into that awesome and infinite power!

That's the side accusing ME of bullying.

I want you to think about that.

[Raf]

Yes, I'm exaggerating. I know most of you are not accusing me of bullying

[Raf]

Listened to and watched the report on the study of speaking in tongues, and the study appears to contain a fundamental, fatal flaw. The researcher compared the brain of someone speaking in tongues to the same person praying with the understanding. What's missing? The brain of someone deliberately faking it. I'd bet a week's salary it would be indistinguishable from a tongues speaker.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Raf

[geisha779]

That is YOUR standard. I'm not subject to your standard. So what did you do when you spoke in tongues at fellowship or at excellor sessions? Some Spanish version of pig latin, or just jibberish?

No? You really kind of are if you demand Raf prove his point....funny how that works. How about any reasonable standard? I have to wonder, as I have inadvertently strung two words together that Freud once used in some esoteric essay and I am somehow working for the wrong side. What standard did you use in evaluating my post to come up with that gem? Just an observation here, but it appears you don't really hold yourself or your random rambling thoughts to any standard.

How about it Johniam....did you pay for PFAL.....fork over money to learn to operate the Holy Spirit? How were you and I any different than Simon in Acts? We paid cash to receive the so-called power of God. We did it with tongues, we did it with Interpretation and with prophecy.....and if you are an Advanced class grad as I am, you did with the rest of what VP termed manifestation of the HS. That is just so offensive. To me now and always to God whose gifts are freely given as He wills. Simon was actually refused, so, he went on to start his own special school of magic. Much like VP.

It was a scam. If you don't want to listen to the reasoning on this thread....check out the scriptures and some church history. We followed the guy who offered to sell us the magic. The problem may be that you are still so vested in that gnostic flavored gospel you can't really see the difference. It is just a modern day repeat of what happened in the first church. Although, Simon had a much larger following and a greater impact on the church. He was a real pain in their backsides.

We took a serious wrong turn.

[waysider]

Listened to and watched the report on the study of speaking in tongues, and the study appears to contain a fundamental, fatal flaw. The researcher compared the brain of someone speaking in tongues to the same person praying with the understanding. What's missing? The brain of someone deliberately faking it. I'd bet a week's salary it would be indistinguishable from a tongues speaker.

That's a good point. It would be interesting to see that comparison.

[geisha779]

Listened to and watched the report on the study of speaking in tongues, and the study appears to contain a fundamental, fatal flaw. The researcher compared the brain of someone speaking in tongues to the same person praying with the understanding. What's missing? The brain of someone deliberately faking it. I'd bet a week's salary it would be indistinguishable from a tongues speaker.

The part of the brain which is active when we speak a language like English wasn't involved when SIT. If it is a language that we supposedly form and use at our will....wouldn't it be active? Those people sounded like they were stuttering. It didn't sound like language it sounded just like gibberish.. . . some of them were just making noises. The Pastor admitted as much. I thought the study kind of refuted at least VP's take on SIT.

Oh and now I remember the explanation for why it may be an unrecognizable language other than the angel thing. It was that it could be any ancient language once spoken anywhere on earth. Anyone else remember that? That is convenient.

Edited September 17, 2012 by geisha779

[waysider]

Every language has a structure. Whether or not the language is recognizable to anyone is really a moot point. To qualify as a legitimate language, what needs to be identifiable is the presence of a structure. One of the main characteristics of glossolalia is that it does not have an identifiable structure. It's random sounds, vowels, consonants strung together without the type of structure that would define it as a language.

Therefore, assuming it might be an ancient language or an angelic language or a language from some remote area of the world only serves to obscure the heart of the issue....It's not a "language" at all, by definition.

[Raf]

Good question, Geisha! But you would have to measure an admitted faker to know that.

My thought is, if I faked gibberish, I DON'T need to pre-think the actual sounds any more than an alleged tongues-speaker would.

Example: If I INTENDED to say "Lo shanta kali fon senti porishi sunta kay ronta fello sonasta," then yes, you would pick up that I was repeating something I memorized because it would work the same as language and normal thinking.

If, however, I did not pre-think anything and just spouted the first sound that came to mind, then no, it would be indistinguishable from what we saw with the tongues speakers. Laleo. They're speaking without regard to the sounds that are coming out of their mouths, in both cases. So I would expect the readings to be the same.

Here's another experiment they could try: Record the brain activity of someone who admittedly is speaking platitudes they made up on the spot ("I am God, and I love you. I always have and always will. Be strong in my Word and have faith in Me always, and I will never forsake you"). Compare the brain activity of someone doing THAT with the brain activity of someone bringing forth a word of prophecy. Does anyone doubt what the outcome would be? Anyone?

Interesting thing about that video: the notion that the believers involved produced a known language was NOT EVEN ALLEGED. No one claimed to be producing an identifiable language. This, of course, flies in the face of Acts, doesn't it? When they spoke in tongues, people around them said, "Hey! They're speaking my language!"

So the guys and gals on that video, shucks, they must all be speaking heavenly languages. Which brings me back to, how many languages do they have in heaven? Do the angels under Michael's dominion speak Michaelese, while the angels under Gabriel's command speak Gabrielese? Are there more than two heavenly languages? How many? If this were the doctrinal thread, this is the part where I'd ask for chapters and verses. But it's not the doctrinal thread, so I won't go there.

Then again, these people might be speaking archaic languages, once known to man but now lost to history. There's always that.

ALL OF THEM? God gives us irrefutable proof that's indistinguishable from made up gibberish? (By the way, Johniam, that's how you spell "gibberish." In English, anyway. You're welcome). How is that irrefutable proof of anything?

[Ham]

I like a slightly different argument.

If sit as twi, cff, stiffi, and what is the name of jl's new outfit know it-

intercession for the saints.. a pre-requisite for revelation.. makes one "big and fat, spiritually.."

why was I STILL so "spiritually blind" as to the vicster's bad behavior.. not just him but the *men* around him as well.

loy's abuse of staffer's wives.

I was in the lousy organization until sometime in 1996.

no clue, nada, nothing. And it was corrupt, to the core.

Why did the "intercession" not keep a family member from getting cancer..

why did it not save my marriage..

Why didn't I have ONE STINKING CLUE of what to do?

And I actually did my sincere, best to not "fake it".

About ten years ago, I gave it up, cold turkey. I just wanted to see what would happen.. the world did not come to an end. At least things did not get any worse..

[waysider]

About ten years ago, I gave it up, cold turkey. I just wanted to see what would happen.. the world did not come to an end. At least things did not get any worse..

Similar experience here, as well. If anything, I think it actually helped me to quit. (I still use it in a meditative, non-spiritual sense.) It freed up my mind to think instead of whatever it is that SIT does. And, hey, didn't people pray with plain old fashioned words before they ever "discovered" tongues? If you are of the persuasion that prayer works, why should it make a difference?

[chockfull]

You know, while I can appreciate all of the brain wave analysis talk, etymology, and technical details, for me I have a different approach and viewpoint. My prayer life is a little more child-like. I had enough of knowledge puffing up in TWI to last me a lifetime.

I didn't mean to be rude or interrupt. Please carry on.

[Raf]

Is it necessary? Is it beneficial? Does it help? All valid questions worth exploring.

Are you really doing it or are you faking it to fit in? Because if your answer to that question is "I'm faking it," the answer to your earlier questions don't much matter to your experience. There would have to be some other explanation to the benefits or comfort you experienced.

Objectively, if it is true but you faked it, it would still have every benefit ascribed to it by scripture. It would just mean that you haven't tapped into it.

Say I benefit from loving God and I can benefit from speaking in tongues. I claim to speak in tongues, but deep down, I know (or maybe I don't know: I've fooled myself) that I'm faking it. But I can see the benefit! Does the benefit prove I spoke in tongues? No. It may prove that I merely love God, and that is where the benefit came from.

Johniam is convinced that he personally receives benefits of exhortation and comfort when people practice TIP in his presence. He concludes it MUST be genuine. I conclude that Johniam attends these meetings primed to hear something that will comfort his heart. I practice TIP with the heartfelt motive of saying something that will comfort the hearts of those present.

AND THE RESULT SHOCKS YOU?

Come on!

I could fake it with the best of them. I know because I did.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Raf

[chockfull]

About ten years ago, I gave it up, cold turkey. I just wanted to see what would happen.. the world did not come to an end. At least things did not get any worse..

I can't see God holding that against you. And I'm not better than you because I didn't. Honestly, if my experience with it started within TWI as opposed to before I probably would have done the same thing.