SIT, TIP, Prophecy and Confession

[Raf]

I lied about it all.

I admit it. I have never spoken in a language unknown to me. The "interpretations" that came from me were made up on the spot. The "words of prophecy" that came from me were, likewise, fabricated extemporaneously. It was all a lie.

Interesting point: In CES (I refuse to dignify their later irrelevant metamorpheses), they taught that an interpretation should take the form of prayer and praise, not exhortation and comfort, and voila! Just like that, their interpretations changed to conform to their new doctrine. What this tells me? I'm not the only one who made it up, who lied to gain the favor of the group.

I can't be the only one.

I believe that TWI encouraged this lie (and continues to do so to this day). A supernatural experience is posited to you, you lie to feign participation in that experience, and you gain acceptance. What united us was NOT the supernatural experience, but the participation in the lie. I call it reinforced-self-deception. And I renounce it.

Does anyone else?

[waysider]

I second the motion.

I should add, though, that I think most of us weren't aware we were lying....like when we told a younger sibling about Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny and believed it ourselves.

Edited September 12, 2012 by waysider

[JavaJane]

I spoke in tongues on my own before my family got in to twi. I didn't know what it was, but it felt good and I enjoyed it. I believe it was (as Waysidet has described it) glossolalia. I still do it now. I guess my answer is none of the above.

I dont think I made up the interpretation of tongues, but maybe unconsciously I did. I didn't intentionally fake it.

[waysider]

I think it's important to note, you can make things up ahead of time and you can make things up spontaneously. Most of us probably fell into the latter classification.

[Raf]

I don't believe anyone intended to fake it. But funny how the interpretation changes when the doctrine about interpretation changes. Simplest explanation: it's extemporaneous expression, not divine inspiration.

First thing I had to do was admit I lied to myself, for years. If you don't know whether you faked it, congratulations! You did!

Of course, Wierwille tried to tell us right there in PFAL that the devil will try to get you to think you're just faking it, so you just ignore him and belieeeeve. (psst. Wierwille lied. Your heart and integrity were trying to tell you that you were faking it. Wierwille got us to ignore that, and when we did, we sold him a little piece of our soul).

[waysider]

Well, you can never be too careful. I mean, look what happened to poor Eve!

[waysider]

If you ever participated in an excellor (practice) session.....you made stuff up.

It's really that straightforward.

[Steve Lortz]

I believe that SIT is real, but not what it is described as in either Pentecostalism or TWI. I believe that SIT is always thanksgiving (giving proper credit) to God. I believe there were lots of times when people made up their interpretations. I tried not to do that myself, but I can't guarantee that I was always successful. There were a few times while in TWI where people "fell on their faces" after I had interpreted. It strikes me that God could have used the opportunity to deliver a prophecy, even if it wasn't an "interpretation" of what I had just spoken in an unknown tongue.

I am presently taking an advanced class on interpreting koine Greek, and I can testify that the things taught in the intermediate class about ANY kind of interpretation were a load of road apples.

I have fairly frequently spoken "with prophetic voice", as some people who were never involved with TWI or Pentecostalism have told me, but it was never in a set situation, like a twig meeting or class. It has always been one-on-one when I have felt moved to say something about the situation a friend seemed to be in.

I believe, if we fill our hearts with attitudes (through habitual thought) that are conducive to the flow of the love of God, then God can speak specific words into our hearts that communicate His love to our hearers, as our mouths speak out of the overflow of our hearts.

Pentecost was the celebration of the first fruit of the wheat harvest, when people gave back to God of that which He had given them. The people who believed on the day of Pentecost were the first fruit of the wheat harvest. When they were speaking in tongues, speaking by the Spirit of God, they were offering back to God of that which He had given them, the gift of holy Spirit. The tongues as of flame demonstrated that their offering was acceptable to God.

I'm writing my masters thesis on this (in a non-Pentecostal seminary).

Love,

Steve

[Raf]

I tried to cover as many bases as I could with the poll options. Looks like I missed one.

[Twinky]

As a kid I used to love speaking in my "foreign language." I didn't know what it was, but it was nice, and I used to like singing in it too. It was a game to me...but it came after an understanding and decision, as a child, that Jesus loved me and I loved Jesus.

And that was decades before encountering TWI.

There are many times when I have talked with people and, without knowing anything of their situations, have said something that they've said was "just what they needed to hear." Is that a WoK, a word of prophecy, what? I don't know, I only know that as my heart is to help and serve others, I believe God can give me words that others need - to encourage, to strengthen, to help.

I agree with Steve's thoughts on this.

Don't know if any of what TWI taught is correct. As it was so performance-based (works), especially in the Intermediate class, it was probably all stuff and nonsense.

I know that if I did anything like that (SIT and interpretation) in any church I've been to since TWI (not that there are many of those) I would get, at the very least, some raised eyebrows. At the church I've been attending, they are open to people with a "word" about current situations, a Bible verse to share, or a "picture" that seems to relate to something that the church is considering. The "picture" is usually "interpreted" or explained by the person "seeing" the "picture." And sometimes, there is a quiet bit at the end of some songs where people spontaneously start singing softly in tongues. The noise so made actually sounds quite pleasant but I find it quite freaky - guess that is something from TWI that I still need to deal with. While they're happy with the same person "interpreting" a "picture," if it came to interpreting tongues, they would definitely expect an "interpreter" (different person) to be present rather than delivery by the same person.

But then again, perhaps that's as far as that church's understanding goes... God always has more that he wants us to know.

[GT]

Most people don't realize that speaking in tongues was borrowed from the ancient Greeks. Originally done by the Pythoness of the Oracle at Delphi as far back as the 4th century BCE.

Google that:

https://www.google.com/search?q=speaking+in+tongues+delphi

Or directly: http://ecstaticspeech.blogspot.com/2007/07/non-christians-speak-in-tongues-too.html

The crap belief that it came on pentecost and is proof that you're born again is just more snake oil.

Christianity has nothing original.

[excathedra]

hello GT nice to see you

i hope to check out your links when i feel like it

um um um um

i think i spoke in tongues way before the way and i think i can do it now

if it's not tongues, wtf is it?

what i remember about the interpretation and prophecy (never foretelling lol) is that if i was called on i would try my damndest to do it really really fast because i was afraid it would be talking

it was very strange. i don't miss that

[excathedra]

go to 54 seconds and then later randy jackson comments on the same language thing. what do you think? (ps. i love this kid)

[Raf]

"If it's not tongues, WTF is it?"

Babbling. Ever wonder why we all sounded like Wierwille at first? Because that's what we thought it was supposed to sound like. As we realized the silliness of everyone speaking in the same unknown language, we varied our pitch (WE varied our pitch). Remember the excellor sessions when we were taught to sound from different letters of the alphabet to develop more fluency? WHERE TF is that in the Bible? INVENTED. Every syllable was your own. YOU moved your lips, your tongue, your throat... "as the spirit gave utterance" felt no different from "make that s--- up as you go along," so when you made it up as you went along, the "good" Doctor had to tell you "no, you're not faking it, that's right, you're doing it now, don't let the devil talk you out of it..." God had nothing to do with it. It was sophisticated babbling that never, ever corresponded to the tongues of men or angels.

Tongues of angels? TONGUES OF ANGELS? Just think about that one for a while. How many languages do they speak up there? Tongues of angels. Please.

WTF is it?

It's you.

Only recently have I found the personal courage and integrity to admit this to myself. I invite all to do the same.

[excathedra]

yeah but i did it WAY before i met the WAYHEAD WIERWILLE KING

[Raf]

I love that American Idol clip! "I spoke in tongues before TWI" = "I made up my own language when I was in 6th grade!"

I made up a language as a child too. Just babbled. I did it in front of my classmates. I insisted it was the language of the Krah-zee people of old. (Say it out loud a few times). When I spoke in tongues, it was THE SAME THING. I didn't speak in tongues as a child. I faked it as an adult. It's embarrassing. But not anymore. I refuse to continue perpetuating the lie that, in my opinion, bound us all not with love, not with the spirit, but with the reinforced self-deception that led us to think we had "PROOF!" at last!

I refuse to lie any more about this.

[waysider]

When I took acting classes, we did an exercise that wasn't very different than an excellor session.

"Make up a language and sell me this prop."

[excathedra]

i dont know WTF about anything

[Steve Lortz]

I believe you are telling the truth about your own experience Raf, and I respect that. You might be a little hasty in extrapolating from your own experience to that of everyone else. I've known too many people who have had experiences with tongues who never had anything to do with the Way International to think it was something invented by Wierwille, or even by Parham. It was associated with meetings during the Great Awakening of the 1700s where the preachers didn't even teach anything like Wierwille did in PFAL. I don't think the Pythoness at Delphi was speaking in tongues. She spoke undersandable Greek words in sequences that didn't seem to make sense. There is a strong possability that she spoke under the influence of psychotropic gases in the cave.

It's instructive to compare and contrast the accounts Luke gives in Acts with what Paul wrote in I Corinthians. Luke never says in Acts that Paul or the Corinthians ever spoke in tongues, but what Paul wrote indicates that they did. What does that tell us? Something was going on. It wasn't what Wierwille taught. It wasn't what was going on at the Brownsville revival. But something WAS going on. What was it? I don't know, but I'm doing my best to think it through.

There have been times in my life when I've found out I was lied to, had relied on those lies, and spread those lies myself. I don't blame you one bit for taking the stand you have taken, and I think it is part of the healing process you're still going through, as are we all.

Love,

Steve

Edited September 13, 2012 by Steve Lortz

[waysider]

What does that tell us? Something was going on. It wasn't what Wierwille taught. It wasn't what was going on at the Brownsville revival. But something WAS going on. What was it?

Well, maybe it was glossolalia. It had been around a long time before Pentecost.

[Raf]

Thanks, Steve. We are respectfully at irreconcilable positions here. I don't think I've been hasty in the extrapolation at all. I can't force anyone to agree with me, but I can invite people to confess and free themselves from years and maybe even decades of reinforced b.s. It's okay to come out, as it were.

It must have been something: what was it?

I reject the premise. It most certainly "must" not have been anything. It was as easy to fake it during the Great Awakening as it was at the end of every session 12.

Edited September 13, 2012 by Raf

[waysider]

Speaking in tongues can't hurt you. That's a proven fact. But, consider this: Unlike meditation, when you speak in tongues, you temporarily relinquish a portion of your ability to think and question critically. You temporarily lose some of your sense of self. Now add that to the concept of a lift list and the camera analogy. You are focusing on something specific while losing some of your sense of self and critical thinking abilities. Here's an example: Picture Wierwille giving a successful and stirring presentation while you are speaking in tongues. (In other words, lift Wierwille.) What happens? Your mind begins to delude itself with the false image of Wierwille you created. Voila! Years go by and you still have this fairytale image of what Wierwille must have really been like. Well, that's my theory. But, I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

[GT]

"Speaking in tongues can't hurt you."

and

"you temporarily relinquish a portion of your ability to think and question critically"

seem to be mutually exclusive.

In other words, don't do this while driving

[waysider]

The good news is, it's only temporary if you want it to be. That is, unless you've taken session #7 too much to heart. (That's the one where we're told to never, ever even consider other viewpoints.) Just continue to "STAND!". Then, no amount of logic or reason will be able to persuade you otherwise .

[Steve Lortz]

What does that tell us? Something was going on. It wasn't what Wierwille taught. It wasn't what was going on at the Brownsville revival. But something WAS going on. What was it?

Well, maybe it was glossolalia. It had been around a long time before Pentecost.

If you have citations, I can use them in my research. Thanks!

Love,

Steve