I think j.l. admitted to some such activity. Now whether it was with peers, or with some of those under his charge as a corpse coordinator, is what I would like to know..
These guys can't/couldn't even agree on something as straightforward as adultery. Do you really want to trust them to know the score on anything at all?
I don't know any details about Lynn, except he admitted to having been part of the problem. Schoenheit had been oblivious to the whole thing, til someone came to him for counseling.
When Lynn, Schoenheit and Greaser formed CES, they took a very legalistic attitude toward their own behavior in that regard. They weren't legalistic about their followers' behavior. It didn't present much of a problem for anybody until after Pat divorced John. When Lynn started courting again, he was all tied up in knots about what was permissible before marriage, and what was not. And I don't mean THE deed, I mean holding hands and kissing!
I think j.l. admitted to some such activity. Now whether it was with peers, or with some of those under his charge as a corpse coordinator, is what I would like to know..
I know for a fact it was with those under his charge...
Glad to see someone else has learned about Darby and his contribution to the theory of Bible "administrations" that so many evangelicals and fundamentalists subscribe to. He is an important figure in the history of this kind of Bible study and influenced VPW whether he knew it or not....if he did know of it, he sure didn't question Darby. At least I never heard him mention Darby's name. Why not question such a contrivance? IMO, dispensations/administrations are a system of time-zoning the Scriptures to back up what you want to believe.
Two big big problems I see with trying to explain things away with administrations:
Wierwille said, in PFAL, that because the Ten Commandments are from an administration that no longer involves us or applies to us directly, we technically don't need to follow them, because, he said, The Great Commandment (Love God with all your heart, etc.) and The Second Great Commandment (Love your neighbor as yourself) supersede them and, thus, if we follow these two, we will be following the Ten Commandments inherently. In other words, if we follow the two Great Commandments, we wouldn't kill someone anyway.
Here's where it gets stupid.
Problem one:
If you can use that logic to show that murder is wrong, how can you NOT say that the rest of the list (which includes adultery) needs to be treated equally?
Problem two:
The Great Commandment and its addendum, as found in the New Testament, are really, in essence, simply a restating of values that were originally set forth in the Old Testament. (Lev. and Deut.) So, logic would seem to say that they don't hold some sort of special significance that is proprietary to a specific era of time, nor do they supersede the essence of what was stated in The Ten Commandments.
Wierwille, of course, explained away part of this dilemma, in the Advanced Class, by saying that, when the Bible talks about "adultery", it is really talking about idolatry. So, his logic was that adultery is not really referring to the physical act of intercourse, but to something "spiritual". He went on to suggest that anyone who did not understand this, was somehow lacking in their ability to understand spiritual matters.
Wierwille was no big shot leader with a special, inside track on understanding spiritual matters. He was just another self-centered, charismatic fool who abused the scriptures and used Darby's Administrations to rationalize his deviant behaviors.
So one of the things I remember is that during the 2 lawsuits (Allen, Barnes), Louis Columbo (Rozie / TWI attorney) had deposed Martindale and basically forced him under fear of prosecution for perjury to detail out a list of all of the women he had affairs with. This came up because the Allen's attorney had brought up questions and seemed to have knowledge during the preliminary depositions of some of these affairs that Martindale had not disclosed to Columbo. Reportedly this list was pretty long. After that, TWI took this list and I think mostly the VP - HP - had meetings with each one of these women and/or couples to "counsel" them that this was wrong. The idea they presented was that it was also the girls fault as they had to have a motive of getting something out of it. So blame the girls. This "blame and guilt tactic" also discouraged or headed off further lawsuits. The fallout from these meetings is that many couples where the wife was having an affair with Craig they moved them down from big shot positions to little shot positions. Other situations the girls were smarter, and basically traded upon their silence for a better assignment - full-time paid assignments mostly.
From the fallout of all these "counseling meetings" there were a number of higher-ups that became fearful of their activities outside of their marriages, and chose exit paths at that time before they were caught.
I think among big shot leaders, it would have been almost impossible to not have run up against these types of scenarios. Certainly Wayne of CFF tells stories about having confronted Craig on this. Ralph's GS Radio sharings indicate his knowledge of this and confrontation of this. I think Schoenheit probably wrote his adultery research paper without any knowledge of the pervasiveness of the practice - maybe in response to an incident of someone who came to him in confidence. He probably didn't realize the pervasiveness until he was fired.
Some big shot leaders partook of the adulterous fruit. Others did not. I suppose it's a possibility that some were unaware, but at some point it would have to be more of an ostrich head in the sand unaware, or unaware because they looked the other way on purpose scenario.
i do not believe some leaders who said they "just found out" and then got fired
Some big shot leaders partook of the adulterous fruit. Others did not. I suppose it's a possibility that some were unaware, but at some point it would have to be more of an ostrich head in the sand unaware, or unaware because they looked the other way on purpose scenario.
this is the way it was
i am NOT saying they all partook (lol); i'm saying if you spent 10 minutes around veepee, you knew the score
the ones that DID partake, too frikkin many to mention
even lovely caring ones -- i know that sounds stupid
but you can have one leader who tried to jump any new little bunny that moved
and then you can have one that
oh forget it. i'm not making sense except to me.
i guess it's all wrong since i'm only talking about married people and leaders. period.
--
some "leaders" didn't hunt, i guess i'm trying to say, but they did "get"
JAL had some kind of (what do you call that) where he confessed to his thing with NW. who gives a whatever. i think it was after she confessed so what he is going to do? honesly i don't care
and then there was his wife. we really didn't understand why she had to go off and be with that other pat and i don't know discover the world
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chockfull
Not wrong IMO. It establishes a pattern among the big shots, the entitled ones, the users.
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Ham
I think j.l. admitted to some such activity. Now whether it was with peers, or with some of those under his charge as a corpse coordinator, is what I would like to know..
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waysider
These guys can't/couldn't even agree on something as straightforward as adultery. Do you really want to trust them to know the score on anything at all?
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Steve Lortz
I don't know any details about Lynn, except he admitted to having been part of the problem. Schoenheit had been oblivious to the whole thing, til someone came to him for counseling.
When Lynn, Schoenheit and Greaser formed CES, they took a very legalistic attitude toward their own behavior in that regard. They weren't legalistic about their followers' behavior. It didn't present much of a problem for anybody until after Pat divorced John. When Lynn started courting again, he was all tied up in knots about what was permissible before marriage, and what was not. And I don't mean THE deed, I mean holding hands and kissing!
Love,
Steve
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Rejoice
I know for a fact it was with those under his charge...
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waysider
Wouldn't that constitute abuse of authority?
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Ham
That's what I would think.
And my next thought.. how many times.
And did he "recruit" his victims much like da victster did, holding a "birth to the corps" paper in one hand, beckoning with the other..
or did he have the Goon Squad figure out how to supply him..
or were there any drugs or alcohol involved?
any special favors to those who complied?
Consequences rendered to those who refused?
Any threats issued?
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waysider
....made possible by Darby and his concept of dispensationalism (administrations).
Well, it's the Age of Grace, dontcha know.
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penworks
Glad to see someone else has learned about Darby and his contribution to the theory of Bible "administrations" that so many evangelicals and fundamentalists subscribe to. He is an important figure in the history of this kind of Bible study and influenced VPW whether he knew it or not....if he did know of it, he sure didn't question Darby. At least I never heard him mention Darby's name. Why not question such a contrivance? IMO, dispensations/administrations are a system of time-zoning the Scriptures to back up what you want to believe.
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waysider
Two big big problems I see with trying to explain things away with administrations:
Wierwille said, in PFAL, that because the Ten Commandments are from an administration that no longer involves us or applies to us directly, we technically don't need to follow them, because, he said, The Great Commandment (Love God with all your heart, etc.) and The Second Great Commandment (Love your neighbor as yourself) supersede them and, thus, if we follow these two, we will be following the Ten Commandments inherently. In other words, if we follow the two Great Commandments, we wouldn't kill someone anyway.
Here's where it gets stupid.
Problem one:
If you can use that logic to show that murder is wrong, how can you NOT say that the rest of the list (which includes adultery) needs to be treated equally?
Problem two:
The Great Commandment and its addendum, as found in the New Testament, are really, in essence, simply a restating of values that were originally set forth in the Old Testament. (Lev. and Deut.) So, logic would seem to say that they don't hold some sort of special significance that is proprietary to a specific era of time, nor do they supersede the essence of what was stated in The Ten Commandments.
......................................................................
Wierwille, of course, explained away part of this dilemma, in the Advanced Class, by saying that, when the Bible talks about "adultery", it is really talking about idolatry. So, his logic was that adultery is not really referring to the physical act of intercourse, but to something "spiritual". He went on to suggest that anyone who did not understand this, was somehow lacking in their ability to understand spiritual matters.
.............................................................
Wierwille was no big shot leader with a special, inside track on understanding spiritual matters. He was just another self-centered, charismatic fool who abused the scriptures and used Darby's Administrations to rationalize his deviant behaviors.
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excathedra
what good would it do anyway? there are too many
and there is nothing new under the sun
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chockfull
So one of the things I remember is that during the 2 lawsuits (Allen, Barnes), Louis Columbo (Rozie / TWI attorney) had deposed Martindale and basically forced him under fear of prosecution for perjury to detail out a list of all of the women he had affairs with. This came up because the Allen's attorney had brought up questions and seemed to have knowledge during the preliminary depositions of some of these affairs that Martindale had not disclosed to Columbo. Reportedly this list was pretty long. After that, TWI took this list and I think mostly the VP - HP - had meetings with each one of these women and/or couples to "counsel" them that this was wrong. The idea they presented was that it was also the girls fault as they had to have a motive of getting something out of it. So blame the girls. This "blame and guilt tactic" also discouraged or headed off further lawsuits. The fallout from these meetings is that many couples where the wife was having an affair with Craig they moved them down from big shot positions to little shot positions. Other situations the girls were smarter, and basically traded upon their silence for a better assignment - full-time paid assignments mostly.
From the fallout of all these "counseling meetings" there were a number of higher-ups that became fearful of their activities outside of their marriages, and chose exit paths at that time before they were caught.
I think among big shot leaders, it would have been almost impossible to not have run up against these types of scenarios. Certainly Wayne of CFF tells stories about having confronted Craig on this. Ralph's GS Radio sharings indicate his knowledge of this and confrontation of this. I think Schoenheit probably wrote his adultery research paper without any knowledge of the pervasiveness of the practice - maybe in response to an incident of someone who came to him in confidence. He probably didn't realize the pervasiveness until he was fired.
Some big shot leaders partook of the adulterous fruit. Others did not. I suppose it's a possibility that some were unaware, but at some point it would have to be more of an ostrich head in the sand unaware, or unaware because they looked the other way on purpose scenario.
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waysider
It makes me glad I never rose beyond the rank of peon.
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WordWolf
Ralph and Schonheit...
To hear their own accounts,
as soon as Ralph began to hear things, he said something and was forced off-grounds.
Schonheit said he was faced with the chance to cheat, and realized all his twi background
left him absent a good verse to use to refuse it.
This started his study- and things snowballed from there.
====================
Concerning vpw and his rationalizations,
don't blame them on any doctrine.
Lots of people hold that doctrine and are NOT sex maniacs.
vpw was going to rationalize no matter WHAT he had to work with.
In private, he took a verse that said to avoid fornication and claimed
it actually meant fornication was fine. He didn't need a specific
doctrine to support his lusts- he was just fine making things up out
of whole cloth.
Whether or not dispensationalism is right or wrong, the problem is not
dispensationalism as much as it is a lone sex maniac who would have
grabbed any straw and woven it into a "sex-positive" message.
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OperaBuff
Hey ex, I'm having hella fun rearranging the words in your post title..
"Big shot leaders • who had sex outside their marriage"
Outside marriage sex • who had shot their leaders big
Outside sex • marriage shot their leaders who big
Big sex • outside their leaders shot who had
Leaders sex outside • who had their big marriage shot
Big shot marriage • who had sex outside their leaders
Better than Scrabble!
I'm in an odd mood.
Teach me vp!!!
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excathedra
i love you opera buff
--
i do not believe some leaders who said they "just found out" and then got fired
this is the way it wasi am NOT saying they all partook (lol); i'm saying if you spent 10 minutes around veepee, you knew the score
the ones that DID partake, too frikkin many to mention
even lovely caring ones -- i know that sounds stupid
but you can have one leader who tried to jump any new little bunny that moved
and then you can have one that
oh forget it. i'm not making sense except to me.
i guess it's all wrong since i'm only talking about married people and leaders. period.
--
some "leaders" didn't hunt, i guess i'm trying to say, but they did "get"
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excathedra
JAL had some kind of (what do you call that) where he confessed to his thing with NW. who gives a whatever. i think it was after she confessed so what he is going to do? honesly i don't care
and then there was his wife. we really didn't understand why she had to go off and be with that other pat and i don't know discover the world
bunch of nuts
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