After I left TWI, I started reading works by other biblical scholars (especially in the area of Eschatology, the study of End Times) and I was amazed at how much they knew, and how much more I could still learn about the bible.
TWI just regurgitates the same stuff over and over and over again.
I was also amazed that scholars have written stuff that we learned in TWI and were told we were the only ones who knew it.
I ran across a study of the true day JC was born (per this study it is Sept. 11) in a book totally not of TWI, and it was the SAME teaching detail by detail, that we were taught in The Corps by a fellow Corps member. At that time, we were lead to believe that it was research done by said Corps member. Makes me wonder. Did two different studies come up with the same conclusions or was it stolen and presented as TWI research?
Someplace on GSC, there is a thread that reveals the true source of JCOPS. I have no idea how to find it, though. (The search feature never seems to work for me.)
Outie, you're right, there's a lot of careful research materials out there. And loads of stuff that we never even knew about. The Didache, for instance (what? say most of you). I always hoped to learn (at TWI) something about the Dead Sea Scrolls. (Fool, I thought the teaching might be something legit!)
It's quite well known in Christian circles that JC wasn't born in Dec but in autumn/fall some time - some think Sept, some think Oct. In fact, quite a lot of our "special knowledge" is quite well known.
There is some criticism of the wider Christian church due here. If the churches taught better, disseminated information better, didn't just deliver the standard "pat" doctrine, then we wouldn't have fallen into the TWI trap quite so easily.
I went to the Salvation Army with my Mum a couple of years ago for their Christmas service. The usual gospel reading, including a talk about the wise men visiting (I think they made the point that the wise men and the shepherds weren't there together) - and the preacher took it just that bit further - went on to talk about the "Massacre of the Innocents" - the first martyrs to die for Jesus the Christ - the young boys who were all murdered by Herod when he realized the wise men had tricked him. Did TWI ever talk of that? Nothing I ever heard - just the "special knowledge" that JC was born in Sept or Oct or whenever they say.
Waysider, I wonder if there was anything that VPW didn't plagiarize?
And, you know, that's a very important aspect of this whole subject. Sure, he can no longer personally hurt you but, the system he set in place is very much alive and active. In fact, there seems to be a revival of sorts in all things Way related. Now we have facebook "fellowships", word studies and teachings and even on-line excellor sessions. All of a sudden, I've seen people who've been gone from The Way for decades spewing Way cliches and pushing for a resurgence of interest and activity. They can hardly communicate without bringing the subject back to some teaching they heard long ago. Kind of like the Herpes virus. You get Chickenpox from it when you're a kid and then you forget about it until, as an adult, it rears its ugly head and resurfaces as Shingles and wreaks more havoc then it did its first time around. So, yeah, the Chickenpox (VPW) is gone but, the virus he left behind is still causing damage.
Someplace on GSC, there is a thread that reveals the true source of JCOPS. I have no idea how to find it, though. (The search feature never seems to work for me.)
It helps if you know a name to narrow down the search.
I remembered the author's name was "Ernest Martin" and that made it a LOT easier.
Ernest Martin's book is "The Star That Astonished the World."
"In 1974 Martin wrote the first of five editions of The Tithing Dilemma of which over 100,000 copies were sold. It was this work which triggered the first of many major schisms within the Worldwide Church of God. In 1978 he first wrote The Birth of Christ Recalculated; in 1984 Restoring the Original Bible; in 1987 Secrets of Golgotha; in 1991 101 Bible Secrets; in 1985 The Biblical Manual; in 1996 The Star that Astonished the World; in 1999 The Temples that Jerusalem Forgot and in that same year The Essentials of New Testament Doctrine.
His book The Star that Astonished the World claimed the "Star of Bethlehem" was the planet (or "wandering star" in antiquity) Jupiter, or Zedeq ("Righteousness") in Hebrew, leading the wise men to Jesus in Bethlehem on December 25, 2 BCE, coinciding with the Jewish Festival of Lamps or Hanukkah that year. Dr. Martin claimed that the birth of Jesus happened on the evening of September 11, 3 BCE on the Gregorian calendar, or the first of Tishri on the Jewish calendar which marks Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish new year."
WW, wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that VPW modelled TWI on the Worldwide Church of God, what with its radio broadcasts, unorthodox teachings and non-trinitarian stance (initially).
Ya gotta hand it to VPW - he really did work hard - at copying what other people did. A master ... (ahem) master forger.
So what many of us at the Cafe seem to think of VPW is:
oh for f u x sake, you don't have to tell me what you think of your relationship with jesus chrsit and god,and i won't tell you how far you'll go spiritually since it's none of my f ux ing business
Because vp's teaching legacy did not die with him, it's a good thing we're around to keep telling anybody who's interested exactly what the truth is! That is....how to stay away from that evil.
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outandabout
After I left TWI, I started reading works by other biblical scholars (especially in the area of Eschatology, the study of End Times) and I was amazed at how much they knew, and how much more I could still learn about the bible.
TWI just regurgitates the same stuff over and over and over again.
I was also amazed that scholars have written stuff that we learned in TWI and were told we were the only ones who knew it.
I ran across a study of the true day JC was born (per this study it is Sept. 11) in a book totally not of TWI, and it was the SAME teaching detail by detail, that we were taught in The Corps by a fellow Corps member. At that time, we were lead to believe that it was research done by said Corps member. Makes me wonder. Did two different studies come up with the same conclusions or was it stolen and presented as TWI research?
Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
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waysider
Someplace on GSC, there is a thread that reveals the true source of JCOPS. I have no idea how to find it, though. (The search feature never seems to work for me.)
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Twinky
Outie, you're right, there's a lot of careful research materials out there. And loads of stuff that we never even knew about. The Didache, for instance (what? say most of you). I always hoped to learn (at TWI) something about the Dead Sea Scrolls. (Fool, I thought the teaching might be something legit!)
It's quite well known in Christian circles that JC wasn't born in Dec but in autumn/fall some time - some think Sept, some think Oct. In fact, quite a lot of our "special knowledge" is quite well known.
There is some criticism of the wider Christian church due here. If the churches taught better, disseminated information better, didn't just deliver the standard "pat" doctrine, then we wouldn't have fallen into the TWI trap quite so easily.
I went to the Salvation Army with my Mum a couple of years ago for their Christmas service. The usual gospel reading, including a talk about the wise men visiting (I think they made the point that the wise men and the shepherds weren't there together) - and the preacher took it just that bit further - went on to talk about the "Massacre of the Innocents" - the first martyrs to die for Jesus the Christ - the young boys who were all murdered by Herod when he realized the wise men had tricked him. Did TWI ever talk of that? Nothing I ever heard - just the "special knowledge" that JC was born in Sept or Oct or whenever they say.
Waysider, I wonder if there was anything that VPW didn't plagiarize?
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waysider
I think Tic's dog license was legitimate but, I can't really say with 100% certainty.
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johniam
I'll tell you what I think of VPW. He's DEAD!
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excathedra
lol yam
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Twinky
Unfortunately, Johniam, his teachings are not.
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waysider
And, you know, that's a very important aspect of this whole subject. Sure, he can no longer personally hurt you but, the system he set in place is very much alive and active. In fact, there seems to be a revival of sorts in all things Way related. Now we have facebook "fellowships", word studies and teachings and even on-line excellor sessions. All of a sudden, I've seen people who've been gone from The Way for decades spewing Way cliches and pushing for a resurgence of interest and activity. They can hardly communicate without bringing the subject back to some teaching they heard long ago. Kind of like the Herpes virus. You get Chickenpox from it when you're a kid and then you forget about it until, as an adult, it rears its ugly head and resurfaces as Shingles and wreaks more havoc then it did its first time around. So, yeah, the Chickenpox (VPW) is gone but, the virus he left behind is still causing damage.
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WordWolf
It's factually correct that he's dead.
However, you didn't address what you think of him at all.
You changed the subject- which, I think, is rather telling.
His actions which still affect some of the living,
his practices- which some still carry out,
and his doctrines-some of which are still taught,
those aren't buried with him.
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WordWolf
It helps if you know a name to narrow down the search.
I remembered the author's name was "Ernest Martin" and that made it a LOT easier.
Ernest Martin's book is "The Star That Astonished the World."
http://www.askelm.com/star/index.asp
His previous book was in JCOPS's bibliography- "The Birth of Christ Recalculated".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_L._Martin
"In 1974 Martin wrote the first of five editions of The Tithing Dilemma of which over 100,000 copies were sold. It was this work which triggered the first of many major schisms within the Worldwide Church of God. In 1978 he first wrote The Birth of Christ Recalculated; in 1984 Restoring the Original Bible; in 1987 Secrets of Golgotha; in 1991 101 Bible Secrets; in 1985 The Biblical Manual; in 1996 The Star that Astonished the World; in 1999 The Temples that Jerusalem Forgot and in that same year The Essentials of New Testament Doctrine.
His book The Star that Astonished the World claimed the "Star of Bethlehem" was the planet (or "wandering star" in antiquity) Jupiter, or Zedeq ("Righteousness") in Hebrew, leading the wise men to Jesus in Bethlehem on December 25, 2 BCE, coinciding with the Jewish Festival of Lamps or Hanukkah that year. Dr. Martin claimed that the birth of Jesus happened on the evening of September 11, 3 BCE on the Gregorian calendar, or the first of Tishri on the Jewish calendar which marks Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish new year."
http://www.amazon.com/Star-That-Astonished-World/dp/0945657870
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Twinky
WW, wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that VPW modelled TWI on the Worldwide Church of God, what with its radio broadcasts, unorthodox teachings and non-trinitarian stance (initially).
Ya gotta hand it to VPW - he really did work hard - at copying what other people did. A master ... (ahem) master forger.
So what many of us at the Cafe seem to think of VPW is:
And others of us think:
Anything else?
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waysider
Almost thou persuadest me to sign the green card.
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Twinky
Don't do that, Froggie.
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excathedra
jesusmaryandjoseph, maybe the guy just meant he's dead
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chockfull
What do I think of VP? He was a drunk charlatan plagiarist megalomaniac sex offender who didn't have the human decency to not cheat on his wife.
If he was my "father in the Word" then I'm totally screwed.
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OldSkool
I was snared by Wierwille's systems in 96, long after he died. So his legacy lives on.
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Twinky
You told me what you thought of VPW. I think you'll go a long way, spiritually. May your journey be interesting.
You're totally fine, Chockie.
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excathedra
oh for f u x sake, you don't have to tell me what you think of your relationship with jesus chrsit and god,and i won't tell you how far you'll go spiritually since it's none of my f ux ing business
love,e
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krys
Because vp's teaching legacy did not die with him, it's a good thing we're around to keep telling anybody who's interested exactly what the truth is! That is....how to stay away from that evil.
good evening my Linder
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