All that talk about minor chords got me thinking. Most way prod songs had minor chords in them. LCM talked once about not having too many minor chords, but, hey, we live in a minor chord world sometimes.
Also, as a musician in a group that played for branch and limb meetings, I was told repeatedly to avoid music that sounded like blues. There was a real agenda to do this. Yet, blues is in the word. It's just not called blues, it's called lamentations. I believe they were sung based on 2 Chronicles 35:25 - And Jeremiah lamented for Josiah; and all the singing men and the singing women spake of Josiah in their lamentations to this day, and made them an ordinance in Israel: and, behold, they are written in the lamentations.
Isn't modern day blues simply lamenting something? Hey, Waysider, why don't you try to pull up that SNL skit where Dan Aykroid was playing Tom Snyder and asked Ray Charles...if my woman left me, and I ran out of money, and I went to prison, WOULD I GET THE BLUES????? But, seriously, I just don't think God is upset if people express sorrow in music. He created us with the capacity to cry, didn't he?
I know about the "sorrow of the world worketh death" but I think twi was a bit heavy handed with their restrictions on music sometimes.
Musically speaking, you don't need minor chords to play the blues nor will playing minor chords make something the blues. There is plenty of blues played with major chords and plenty of classical music played with minor chords. The concept that TWI presented is a disconnect from reality.
Philosophically speaking, the blues, as a musical genre, is intended to make you feel better, not worse. It's another example of how TWI held itself forth as an authority on a subject it didn't understand.
bet TWI, CFFM, S&TF, etc feel Hillsongs, Casting Crowns, Afters, Jeremy Camp, Don Moen, Paul Baloche, Chris Tomlin, Lincoln Brewster, Michael Whitiker Smith, Brian Donerksen, etc. are "off" on the Word being Trinitarian, Water Baptism, and so forth. Sad, their music is more boring than chant and European classic/traditional style. Maybe when I have insomnia then listen to their music, :biglaugh:/>
was refering to th Sing Ladies and Present Truth, and music from the off shouts, NOT the mainstay CCM mentioned above.
Over it's years Way Prod has put out a lot of music, some of it good some of it average, some very disposable. Given the accumulation of people, the diversity, it stands to reason that it's gone the way it has, nothing says it would be great, or if it was at any point in time would remain so. Music is work and it takes craftsmanship, practice and personal investment to do it.
Hillsongs is one of my fav's. They (Darlene and crew) found their sweet spot and have developed it over the years. It's "pop" music and fits into the general rock/pop genres. They do that kind of music really really well.
Modern pop music follows a form and to sound good in that form you have to follow it, using very broad strokes perhaps but you have to have the fundamentals. One of those is a "hook", a line or two that captures a thought, idea, feeling in a way that will be meaningful to the listener. Like humor, when something's funny you don't have to analyze it, people laugh. When music's "good" to someone they like it for some reason, and people listen.
Good is relative. I like pop music and really like inventive and innovative use of that format. It can be done many different ways but I know what I like when I hear it. I think Hillsongs is Black Belt XXX rated Uber Hot and Good when it comes to the pop form of music. It's not all I listen to but when I want that sound, they've got it. Not everyone likes it though, or likes it a lot or like me doesn't like it to the exclusion of other music. I don't put in Hillsongs when I want Coltrane, or Coltrane when I want Rungren, etc. etc.
Everyone's different, we all have different things we enjoy. Music isn't teaching or reading although it can teach when it's listened to and the listener "gets it".
The Way pursues a world view that denigrates person preference and elevates programmed choice. One's personal preference is only valid in Way World if it reflects the correct choice.
Knowing and making correct choices is fundamental, yes, however then the individual can and will develop personal preferences through a lifetime of learning and experience that is unique to them. One person may like one color more than another, etc. etc. etc. There are countless things that make us who we are.
The Way wants to say in effect "this is GOD'S WORD, you should like it if you like God's Word and you should"....The Way's effort to homogenize a "like mindedness" that fits all is and will always be a failure, long term. It appeals to certain needs in certain people though and for those people it works and it's great.
The Way wants to say in effect "this is GOD'S WORD, you should like it if you like God's Word and you should"....The Way's effort to homogenize a "like mindedness" that fits all is and will always be a failure, long term. It appeals to certain needs in certain people though and for those people it works and it's great.
Socks -
I think you have nailed it as to why TWI is still in existence. The structure and doctrine appeal to certain people, and for them it works.
The problem is that the doctrine they embrace requires exclusivity. Since requiring that all 'followers' embrace and adhere to exactly the same dogma or your gone, they will gradually fade away. The splinters continue to occur because they are just slightly different. Enough so that those who reject the TWI mold but like the general shape can find a place where they are comfortable.
Since no two people are exactly alike, the logical outcome is that, eventually, TWI will be gone, but it will live on hundreds of similar small organizations.
One of the alternatives for the Way would be to fully embrace the formal, organized "church" model. Be the church that they really are, have members, rules and public policies, ceremonies for entry into membership, etc. etc. etc. Do that instead of acting like they're something different. That would allow them to openly strong arm and muscle their members publicly and not try to keep it so shadowy.
I'd describe the splinters as "different time, different place" ministries. Some change, some adaptation, some accommodation with the same general shape at the center as you stated so well.
They all seem to feel that they're a better version of the former, a version that the founder would be "proud of". To which I've said more than once and other places then here - b---s---.
VP would be spitting up shortie Kools out of his ears if he knew that any core part of his original teachings had been changed and probably be at least moderately peeved about any one of many lesser points of doctrine. That's one reason I find John Lynn such an abhorrent aberration - after all of his theological meanderings and experimentation he still markets himself as someone the ol' Father in the Word would be proud of. It would be more honest to just move and build from a new base, start over, stop leveraging the past like that.
I'm sure it's just to waft some of that Old Time Wayness out over the newbies who don't know any better ("ooooh, you're John Lynn....oooooh, you were taught by the man of gawd....ooooooh....." and the Oldies who are so broken at the imploded ministry they once loved that they'll accept anything that smells like the BRC mid-summer, '75. By holding forth on that platform he can keep the dinero flowing in and maintain his former celebrity with those people. He was never "that" good of a teacher, not that funny, not that effective, not that -anything if compared to any one of many other teacher, pastors and ministers of that genre', the "Christian Lite" combo-Jesus-Bible-Metaphysical ministries.
He's got the drill down though - he can muck up one thing after another, chase every $ making scheme and try out every new thing he can glom onto to re message the Bible and use to make a buck off of and get away with it with that crowd of his because 1. there's always more new people to funnel in and 2. the old Wayfer are more than happy to cite "Grace and Mercy" over it all and give him a free pass through it all, thinking that's spiritual maturity.
IMO if they all don't spit of get off the pot though they'll fade out, as you describe. That may be the preferred way to wind it all down, just let time do it's thing. And for better or worse, there aren't going to be too many people at the estate sale 10 years from now, fondly remembering their healing times in the WOW auditorium listening to "We're Seated in the Heavenlies"...../>
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Keith
I can't speak to what it became. But I did like early Way Productions. Groups like, Selah, Pressed Down..., Goodseed. I even like Joyful Noise at first. By the Wake Up America time they were becomin
johniam
All that talk about minor chords got me thinking. Most way prod songs had minor chords in them. LCM talked once about not having too many minor chords, but, hey, we live in a minor chord world sometimes.
Also, as a musician in a group that played for branch and limb meetings, I was told repeatedly to avoid music that sounded like blues. There was a real agenda to do this. Yet, blues is in the word. It's just not called blues, it's called lamentations. I believe they were sung based on 2 Chronicles 35:25 - And Jeremiah lamented for Josiah; and all the singing men and the singing women spake of Josiah in their lamentations to this day, and made them an ordinance in Israel: and, behold, they are written in the lamentations.
Isn't modern day blues simply lamenting something? Hey, Waysider, why don't you try to pull up that SNL skit where Dan Aykroid was playing Tom Snyder and asked Ray Charles...if my woman left me, and I ran out of money, and I went to prison, WOULD I GET THE BLUES????? But, seriously, I just don't think God is upset if people express sorrow in music. He created us with the capacity to cry, didn't he?
I know about the "sorrow of the world worketh death" but I think twi was a bit heavy handed with their restrictions on music sometimes.
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waysider
Musically speaking, you don't need minor chords to play the blues nor will playing minor chords make something the blues. There is plenty of blues played with major chords and plenty of classical music played with minor chords. The concept that TWI presented is a disconnect from reality.
Philosophically speaking, the blues, as a musical genre, is intended to make you feel better, not worse. It's another example of how TWI held itself forth as an authority on a subject it didn't understand.
http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100108/full/news.2010.3.html
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socks
I was told repeatedly to avoid music that sounded like blues.
:biglaugh:/>:biglaugh:/>:biglaugh:/>
But lemme guess, white bread "country" and bluegrass hymn style muzak was fine.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
was refering to th Sing Ladies and Present Truth, and music from the off shouts, NOT the mainstay CCM mentioned above.
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socks
Over it's years Way Prod has put out a lot of music, some of it good some of it average, some very disposable. Given the accumulation of people, the diversity, it stands to reason that it's gone the way it has, nothing says it would be great, or if it was at any point in time would remain so. Music is work and it takes craftsmanship, practice and personal investment to do it.
Hillsongs is one of my fav's. They (Darlene and crew) found their sweet spot and have developed it over the years. It's "pop" music and fits into the general rock/pop genres. They do that kind of music really really well.
Modern pop music follows a form and to sound good in that form you have to follow it, using very broad strokes perhaps but you have to have the fundamentals. One of those is a "hook", a line or two that captures a thought, idea, feeling in a way that will be meaningful to the listener. Like humor, when something's funny you don't have to analyze it, people laugh. When music's "good" to someone they like it for some reason, and people listen.
Good is relative. I like pop music and really like inventive and innovative use of that format. It can be done many different ways but I know what I like when I hear it. I think Hillsongs is Black Belt XXX rated Uber Hot and Good when it comes to the pop form of music. It's not all I listen to but when I want that sound, they've got it. Not everyone likes it though, or likes it a lot or like me doesn't like it to the exclusion of other music. I don't put in Hillsongs when I want Coltrane, or Coltrane when I want Rungren, etc. etc.
Everyone's different, we all have different things we enjoy. Music isn't teaching or reading although it can teach when it's listened to and the listener "gets it".
The Way pursues a world view that denigrates person preference and elevates programmed choice. One's personal preference is only valid in Way World if it reflects the correct choice.
Knowing and making correct choices is fundamental, yes, however then the individual can and will develop personal preferences through a lifetime of learning and experience that is unique to them. One person may like one color more than another, etc. etc. etc. There are countless things that make us who we are.
The Way wants to say in effect "this is GOD'S WORD, you should like it if you like God's Word and you should"....The Way's effort to homogenize a "like mindedness" that fits all is and will always be a failure, long term. It appeals to certain needs in certain people though and for those people it works and it's great.
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Kevin Fallon
Socks -
I think you have nailed it as to why TWI is still in existence. The structure and doctrine appeal to certain people, and for them it works.
The problem is that the doctrine they embrace requires exclusivity. Since requiring that all 'followers' embrace and adhere to exactly the same dogma or your gone, they will gradually fade away. The splinters continue to occur because they are just slightly different. Enough so that those who reject the TWI mold but like the general shape can find a place where they are comfortable.
Since no two people are exactly alike, the logical outcome is that, eventually, TWI will be gone, but it will live on hundreds of similar small organizations.
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socks
My thoughts exactly Kevin.
One of the alternatives for the Way would be to fully embrace the formal, organized "church" model. Be the church that they really are, have members, rules and public policies, ceremonies for entry into membership, etc. etc. etc. Do that instead of acting like they're something different. That would allow them to openly strong arm and muscle their members publicly and not try to keep it so shadowy.
I'd describe the splinters as "different time, different place" ministries. Some change, some adaptation, some accommodation with the same general shape at the center as you stated so well.
They all seem to feel that they're a better version of the former, a version that the founder would be "proud of". To which I've said more than once and other places then here - b---s---.
VP would be spitting up shortie Kools out of his ears if he knew that any core part of his original teachings had been changed and probably be at least moderately peeved about any one of many lesser points of doctrine. That's one reason I find John Lynn such an abhorrent aberration - after all of his theological meanderings and experimentation he still markets himself as someone the ol' Father in the Word would be proud of. It would be more honest to just move and build from a new base, start over, stop leveraging the past like that.
I'm sure it's just to waft some of that Old Time Wayness out over the newbies who don't know any better ("ooooh, you're John Lynn....oooooh, you were taught by the man of gawd....ooooooh....." and the Oldies who are so broken at the imploded ministry they once loved that they'll accept anything that smells like the BRC mid-summer, '75. By holding forth on that platform he can keep the dinero flowing in and maintain his former celebrity with those people. He was never "that" good of a teacher, not that funny, not that effective, not that -anything if compared to any one of many other teacher, pastors and ministers of that genre', the "Christian Lite" combo-Jesus-Bible-Metaphysical ministries.
He's got the drill down though - he can muck up one thing after another, chase every $ making scheme and try out every new thing he can glom onto to re message the Bible and use to make a buck off of and get away with it with that crowd of his because 1. there's always more new people to funnel in and 2. the old Wayfer are more than happy to cite "Grace and Mercy" over it all and give him a free pass through it all, thinking that's spiritual maturity.
IMO if they all don't spit of get off the pot though they'll fade out, as you describe. That may be the preferred way to wind it all down, just let time do it's thing. And for better or worse, there aren't going to be too many people at the estate sale 10 years from now, fondly remembering their healing times in the WOW auditorium listening to "We're Seated in the Heavenlies".....
/>
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excathedra
i must have been drinking when i wrote that. not a negative at all.
i think mark is a genius -- like socks and many others
yesterday mark was kind enough to send me the original lyrics to "changed eyes" and it has been helping to heal me once again....
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excathedra
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OldSkool
Happens to me all the time.
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