Socks: Do you remember the original version of 'Stand and be counted'? If I recall, JN was sent on the field during the 77/78 ministry year, but one weekend they got you all back at HQ and had you play for the SNS. Stand and be counted was one of the songs you played. Brian led into the chorus with a buh-da-dum buh-da-dum buh-da-dum kind of piano riff immediately before the words 'stand and be counted' were sung. I thought it was cool. It reminded me of the style of Todd Rundgren's Utopiah pianist Roger Powell (who later played with Bob James). But, alas, the "sanitized" version which appeared on the 'God's Team' album did not include riffs like that. Might get somebody possessed, y'know. Tell me that rings a bell....
Yes, I do johniam. If memory serves, Skip wrote that song. I don't recall that arrangement changing specifically, or how it might have changed, there was a riff yes. Skip's arrangement didn't change that much though as I recall - I remember when we got back together later in '84/Sound Out I tried to work an F to F/9 chord sequence into the turnaround on that tune - tried to 'sneak it in' and of course Skip heard it immediately and we discussed it and kept it to the major F to G. :) How I remember that, don't ask me. That's not meant as a criticism of Skip though at all - Skip wrote great music and was a great collaborator. Chord changes have purpose, changing them changes the sound which addresses the purpose differently when you do. An F to a G is different than resolving to an F/9 - just mention it here to illustrate arrangements. Skip was amazing at learning styles of music and adapting his craft to create music - really unique in his skills.
The New Bremen studio lacked the equipment to capture sound without a certain amount of noise, low head room, so some of the reasons for the sound quality is wrapped in that. Mike W did miracles with the board and deck, and the mic'ing we used there. (He was really a talented guy if you knew him, you know). It had a great atmosphere - as I recall we did some of those songs for God's Team in that upstairs studio on the Stevenson board, so that probably had an effect. I don't recall the riff figure being changed though - we may have done something different on the road. Sometimes we did some thicker arrangements than others in performance. Nothing got 'sanitized' though, not in that era. It was recorded pretty much to attain a clean arrangement with the instrumentation we were using.
I remember when VP went on the country music kick. He said that Country was great because it showed the honest, wide range of human emotion. But if a TWI memeber wrote an emotional song it was deemed "worldly", "secular", "Off the Word" because "emotions come and go but the word of God....blah blah blah."
Why did God create us as emotional beings if we can't feel them or express them? The most moving music touches our emotions - happy, said, in love, the pain of lost love.....
No wonder the current music in TWI is so dull. When I've gone to the TWI website and watched/listened to their music it just seems to lifeless. No inspired music. It just seems churned out. It seems preachy. No life. Doesn't do a thing for me. Can hardly stand to watch/listen. I feel sorry for TWI innies. If that's all the music they ever hear, it's really sad.
i love todd rundgren
did i already post this? i tried to last night
secular music example will follow. when i hear this, i think of jesus christ, not a lover (although i would love to)
I remember when VP went on the country music kick. He said that Country was great because it showed the honest, wide range of human emotion. But if a TWI memeber wrote an emotional song it was deemed "worldly", "secular", "Off the Word" because "emotions come and go but the word of God....blah blah blah."
Why did God create us as emotional beings if we can't feel them or express them? The most moving music touches our emotions - happy, said, in love, the pain of lost love.....
vpw, as usual, extended his double-standards to us having emotions.
The man had poor impulse control and would fly off the handle all the time- yelling, storming off,
and engaging in loud and florid displays. Whenever asked about it, he always gave some rationalization
for it- how it secretly was done to build character in the observers, how it was "spiritual" anger or
whatever, and so on. lcm and others just copied what vpw did.....
However,
vpw taught that it was always wrong for US to display emotions.
WE had to be disciplined- something vpw COULD NOT teach by example because he was a
slave to his vices and passions. Having us be the same would not benefit HIM, however,
so most of us were TOLD to be disciplined, and sometimes TOLD that vpw was disciplined-
while he was obeying the lusts of his flesh, the lusts of his eyes, and his pride of life.
Then again, he wanted us to be ROBOTS- MACHINES that OBEYED without question and otherwise
were not underfoot and requiring any kind of help-or even "preventative maintenance" like
any machine cared for, even.
No wonder the current music in TWI is so dull. When I've gone to the TWI website and watched/listened to their music it just seems to lifeless. No inspired music. It just seems churned out. It seems preachy. No life. Doesn't do a thing for me. Can hardly stand to watch/listen. I feel sorry for TWI innies. If that's all the music they ever hear, it's really sad.
Everyone with a hint of talent is run off as a threat- if they get popular, it draws from rfr's authority.
Everyone with a hint of emotion is run off as a threat- if they're feeling rather than obeying coldly, it undermines rfr's authority.
Emotions are a vital part of our make-up. Fear, for example, warns us to avoid impending danger. Likewise, our emotions can alert us to situations that "just aren't quite right". It's that aspect of our emotions that Way-based-theology required us to ignore. If we had allowed those emotions to do their job, we would have been able to look at our situation logically, with critical thinking skills. Failure to do that locks you into a pattern of self delusion/denial. It doesn't only happen in The Way. It's not exclusive to cults or religion based organizations. It happens in marriages, jobs, business relationships, family dynamics, etc.
Our emotions and intuitions are often intertwined. Sometimes that's bad, but, more often that's good. (IMO) I think a lot of what Way LEADERS passed off as revelation was really just intuition. (In VPW's case, sometimes what he passed of as revelation was simply deliberate fabrication, such as the "revelation" he actually gleaned from white supremacy propaganda.) And, it's not always reliable. That's why I say that sometimes it's good and sometimes it's not. On the other hand, valid intuition that Way FOLLOWERS had was often dismissed as being unreliable emotion (5 senses). Life is a balance between being able to trust our emotions/intuitions and cultivating an ability to think critically and logically. Way theology thwarts the individual's ability to develop that skill of balancing the two. It's not a mentally healthful way to approach life. And, yet, The Way actually encouraged us to take that approach.
i think about debra sleeper and that song she sang (try not to think about vp singing it with her) and stevie kay and joyful noise and pressed down and good seed and i just have to say so much of it healed my heart in a very big way. thank you all
and of course my dearest ted
and davie and agape
oh i feel like crying
mwah
oh there was some short guy in the 7th corps. what the heck was his name? i think he was a genius. he wrote some hymn. it wasn't dan moran who i thought was great. who wrote "let us magnify his name"?
That was Mark, excullindra. "The Hagster". And David could definitely write and sing a tune, too. Ted-I love the man, the myth, the memory. Such a talented caring person. Crazy but talented.
I have such a bad memory of how all this played out - if I'd been wise I'd have left when I saw how the Way Nash was screwing people, in the name of pride. Bob W, Harve, Gerald - the weasels took over there for awhile and it really showed me how weak VP actually was that he covered for so many people for so long, I suppose because they were covering for him in return. Bleccch. Worst ending I could have possibly imagined. Not that I was perfect, far from it, but geez.
I see Bob W and his wife from time to time now and it doesn't bother me anymore, him screwing me over for no reason other than he could. People grow up, move on and do what they have to do. Some do better than others but everyone deserves the opportunity to change. I
I''ve managed to do reasonably well with the life I've lived and I don't have too many people around the world that hate me. I can sleep on that.
Plus as my wife noted to me recently - having the musical ability that these lesser sorts never did is a reward in itself. I was one of the guys they tried to put down and squash, but couldn't.
Nobody gives a rats butt about how many burgers went through the line per hour in Way World. VP's dead, his legacy in disarray and their efforts nothing more than discussion points on a board. I sitll play guitar, still play music and have continued to do these last what - 51 years. It wasn't a "job" that started or ended with the Way, it's a lifelong pursuit. I played the s--t out of my guitar a week ago and have people pay me to work on theirs. If there's a winner - well, you tell me.
If I ever heard that TWI had changed and was turning back to God one of the first places I would look would be their music. I would look to see if it praised and gave glory to God, if there was real joy in the singing and playing and heart behind it; if there was...maybe there would be a chance that it was really happinging.
If I ever heard that TWI had changed and was turning back to God one of the first places I would look would be their music. I would look to see if it praised and gave glory to God, if there was real joy in the singing and playing and heart behind it; if there was...maybe there would be a chance that it was really happinging.
I feel ya. But remember that TWI used to have awesome music back in VPW's day and yet his inner circle of corruption was very much alive and well.
It has long been my impression that the music of the "early days" (ie: PDSTRO, Selah, et al) was music that the artists brought WITH them when they came into the ministry. It did not originate inside the organization, in my opinion. That would explain the discrepancy between the two genres. It would also negate any optimism that The Way will somehow produce anything similar to the music that some remember fondly.
Nobody gives a rats butt about how many burgers went through the line per hour in Way World. VP's dead, his legacy in disarray and their efforts nothing more than discussion points on a board. I sitll play guitar, still play music and have continued to do these last what - 51 years. It wasn't a "job" that started or ended with the Way, it's a lifelong pursuit. I played the s--t out of my guitar a week ago and have people pay me to work on theirs. If there's a winner - well, you tell me.
You just have to find things that are meaningful to you now and enjoy them. It can be old music, new music, no music, something else.
The key is to know yourself and how to avoid drilling into a funk that's self sustaining. :) Music can help do both. Some of us need different kinds of influences. Look at someone like James Taylor - I have no doubt he can create a pretty gray day around himself anytime of the day or night and stay there. He's talked about that. It's important to learn how to work with ourselves and use resources that help not hurt.
There's a sweetness to sadness at times, like a whiff of yesterdays remembered. A little bit goes a long way.
I think of it as the nature of existence, of how we experience life and time. We are only fulfilled in the continuous flow forward that's fed from the past. Like rivers, that always look the same each time we enjoy them but in fact each time never have the same water in them, ever.
TWI's music - I'm probably the biggest cupcake you'll find although I can be somewhat uh blunt at times too. But I respect effort. It's always good to remember how much work it takes to do anything well and that what I see another do may be their best, their most and yet not be as accomplished as someone else.
I don't have to like it but I can be gracious in my treatment of others. I need to remember that, more often.
Humility defines greatness, IMO. I'm sure it's in the Bible too, if not I can probably fix something up that would sound about like it. But I see our own humility towards ourselves, each other and our Creator that allows us to be what we are, whatever that is. Humility allows us to make room for others and for more, knowing that we can always learn, grow, keep trying.
If we're a-holes at heart, it will show sooner or later.
We can be great and recognize that too. Kids have no problem celebrating their own wonderfulness. It takes age to make us ashamed of what God's made us and allows us to be. Maybe it's because we get so afraid of losing what we have that we guard it greedily, manage how we share it and are scared to really give it away for fear we'll never have more. So we puff it up and memorialize it. "LOOK AT THE GREAT ME".
When I see the Wayfers and their dippidy doo dah music I groan, I really skarf up a hocknberry. I admit it, I do. But - it's not the music really, it's the manufactured greatness being displayed. It's so phoney it's funny.
What's that - hate the sin, love the sinner? Hate the crapola muza, love the - well, love the sound of it stopping . And then knowing those people might be doing something worthwhile and fun. Later. When not doing that. The music noise.
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Keith
I can't speak to what it became. But I did like early Way Productions. Groups like, Selah, Pressed Down..., Goodseed. I even like Joyful Noise at first. By the Wake Up America time they were becomin
excathedra
i love todd rundgren
did i already post this? i tried to last night
secular music example will follow. when i hear this, i think of jesus christ, not a lover (although i would love to)
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socks
Yes, I do johniam. If memory serves, Skip wrote that song. I don't recall that arrangement changing specifically, or how it might have changed, there was a riff yes. Skip's arrangement didn't change that much though as I recall - I remember when we got back together later in '84/Sound Out I tried to work an F to F/9 chord sequence into the turnaround on that tune - tried to 'sneak it in' and of course Skip heard it immediately and we discussed it and kept it to the major F to G. :) How I remember that, don't ask me. That's not meant as a criticism of Skip though at all - Skip wrote great music and was a great collaborator. Chord changes have purpose, changing them changes the sound which addresses the purpose differently when you do. An F to a G is different than resolving to an F/9 - just mention it here to illustrate arrangements. Skip was amazing at learning styles of music and adapting his craft to create music - really unique in his skills.
The New Bremen studio lacked the equipment to capture sound without a certain amount of noise, low head room, so some of the reasons for the sound quality is wrapped in that. Mike W did miracles with the board and deck, and the mic'ing we used there. (He was really a talented guy if you knew him, you know). It had a great atmosphere - as I recall we did some of those songs for God's Team in that upstairs studio on the Stevenson board, so that probably had an effect. I don't recall the riff figure being changed though - we may have done something different on the road. Sometimes we did some thicker arrangements than others in performance. Nothing got 'sanitized' though, not in that era. It was recorded pretty much to attain a clean arrangement with the instrumentation we were using.
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outandabout
I remember when VP went on the country music kick. He said that Country was great because it showed the honest, wide range of human emotion. But if a TWI memeber wrote an emotional song it was deemed "worldly", "secular", "Off the Word" because "emotions come and go but the word of God....blah blah blah."
Why did God create us as emotional beings if we can't feel them or express them? The most moving music touches our emotions - happy, said, in love, the pain of lost love.....
No wonder the current music in TWI is so dull. When I've gone to the TWI website and watched/listened to their music it just seems to lifeless. No inspired music. It just seems churned out. It seems preachy. No life. Doesn't do a thing for me. Can hardly stand to watch/listen. I feel sorry for TWI innies. If that's all the music they ever hear, it's really sad.
Hello, it's meeeeee
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WordWolf
vpw, as usual, extended his double-standards to us having emotions.
The man had poor impulse control and would fly off the handle all the time- yelling, storming off,
and engaging in loud and florid displays. Whenever asked about it, he always gave some rationalization
for it- how it secretly was done to build character in the observers, how it was "spiritual" anger or
whatever, and so on. lcm and others just copied what vpw did.....
However,
vpw taught that it was always wrong for US to display emotions.
WE had to be disciplined- something vpw COULD NOT teach by example because he was a
slave to his vices and passions. Having us be the same would not benefit HIM, however,
so most of us were TOLD to be disciplined, and sometimes TOLD that vpw was disciplined-
while he was obeying the lusts of his flesh, the lusts of his eyes, and his pride of life.
Then again, he wanted us to be ROBOTS- MACHINES that OBEYED without question and otherwise
were not underfoot and requiring any kind of help-or even "preventative maintenance" like
any machine cared for, even.
Everyone with a hint of talent is run off as a threat- if they get popular, it draws from rfr's authority.
Everyone with a hint of emotion is run off as a threat- if they're feeling rather than obeying coldly, it undermines rfr's authority.
Life in twi is pretty barren.
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waysider
Emotions are a vital part of our make-up. Fear, for example, warns us to avoid impending danger. Likewise, our emotions can alert us to situations that "just aren't quite right". It's that aspect of our emotions that Way-based-theology required us to ignore. If we had allowed those emotions to do their job, we would have been able to look at our situation logically, with critical thinking skills. Failure to do that locks you into a pattern of self delusion/denial. It doesn't only happen in The Way. It's not exclusive to cults or religion based organizations. It happens in marriages, jobs, business relationships, family dynamics, etc.
Our emotions and intuitions are often intertwined. Sometimes that's bad, but, more often that's good. (IMO) I think a lot of what Way LEADERS passed off as revelation was really just intuition. (In VPW's case, sometimes what he passed of as revelation was simply deliberate fabrication, such as the "revelation" he actually gleaned from white supremacy propaganda.) And, it's not always reliable. That's why I say that sometimes it's good and sometimes it's not. On the other hand, valid intuition that Way FOLLOWERS had was often dismissed as being unreliable emotion (5 senses). Life is a balance between being able to trust our emotions/intuitions and cultivating an ability to think critically and logically. Way theology thwarts the individual's ability to develop that skill of balancing the two. It's not a mentally healthful way to approach life. And, yet, The Way actually encouraged us to take that approach.
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Twinky
Outie, you go to their website and listen to their music??? :wacko:
Can I pray for you to be delivered? (LOL)
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excathedra
oh outie my damn soul sister :) why couldnt' you be born a man!
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chockfull
IMO God created emotions so that I can tell the Way to F off for abusing me with passion.
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outandabout
It's kind of like watching a car wreck. Just gotta look sometimes.
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excathedra
i think about debra sleeper and that song she sang (try not to think about vp singing it with her) and stevie kay and joyful noise and pressed down and good seed and i just have to say so much of it healed my heart in a very big way. thank you all
and of course my dearest ted
and davie and agape
oh i feel like crying
mwah
oh there was some short guy in the 7th corps. what the heck was his name? i think he was a genius. he wrote some hymn. it wasn't dan moran who i thought was great. who wrote "let us magnify his name"?
i'm sure i'll have more later :)
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socks
That was Mark, excullindra. "The Hagster". And David could definitely write and sing a tune, too. Ted-I love the man, the myth, the memory. Such a talented caring person. Crazy but talented.
I have such a bad memory of how all this played out - if I'd been wise I'd have left when I saw how the Way Nash was screwing people, in the name of pride. Bob W, Harve, Gerald - the weasels took over there for awhile and it really showed me how weak VP actually was that he covered for so many people for so long, I suppose because they were covering for him in return. Bleccch. Worst ending I could have possibly imagined. Not that I was perfect, far from it, but geez.
I see Bob W and his wife from time to time now and it doesn't bother me anymore, him screwing me over for no reason other than he could. People grow up, move on and do what they have to do. Some do better than others but everyone deserves the opportunity to change. I
I''ve managed to do reasonably well with the life I've lived and I don't have too many people around the world that hate me.
I can sleep on that.
Plus as my wife noted to me recently - having the musical ability that these lesser sorts never did is a reward in itself. I was one of the guys they tried to put down and squash, but couldn't.
Nobody gives a rats butt about how many burgers went through the line per hour in Way World. VP's dead, his legacy in disarray and their efforts nothing more than discussion points on a board. I sitll play guitar, still play music and have continued to do these last what - 51 years. It wasn't a "job" that started or ended with the Way, it's a lifelong pursuit. I played the s--t out of my guitar a week ago and have people pay me to work on theirs. If there's a winner - well, you tell me.
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excathedra
i had a dream last night socks that you were in love with me :) hope you don't mind
i too have really bad memories how many things played out
such good talented people
i have things in my heart i would love to share but they are still too personal. let me just say good people got focked
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Keith
If I ever heard that TWI had changed and was turning back to God one of the first places I would look would be their music. I would look to see if it praised and gave glory to God, if there was real joy in the singing and playing and heart behind it; if there was...maybe there would be a chance that it was really happinging.
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OldSkool
I feel ya. But remember that TWI used to have awesome music back in VPW's day and yet his inner circle of corruption was very much alive and well.
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waysider
It has long been my impression that the music of the "early days" (ie: PDSTRO, Selah, et al) was music that the artists brought WITH them when they came into the ministry. It did not originate inside the organization, in my opinion. That would explain the discrepancy between the two genres. It would also negate any optimism that The Way will somehow produce anything similar to the music that some remember fondly.
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waysider
.
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chockfull
Absolute winner in my book.
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excathedra
something very special -- a gift -- in a musician's soul
i pray the way make-believe experts didn't manage to destroy the souls with such gifts
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excathedra
my dear socks. this is him, yes?
http://www.hagerling.com/greetings.php
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excathedra
just listen. am i wrong that i feel this fellow (and many others) have the spirit of chirst in them to heal others like me
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excathedra
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excathedra
found a negative thing about mark hagerling
don't know what the hell it means
but i'm sure socks and musicians would
do you think i've overstayed my welcome on this thread
http://kilesmith.com/2012/03/05/mark-hagerty-soliloquy/
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socks
That's him. Great guy, talented.
You just have to find things that are meaningful to you now and enjoy them. It can be old music, new music, no music, something else.
The key is to know yourself and how to avoid drilling into a funk that's self sustaining. :) Music can help do both. Some of us need different kinds of influences. Look at someone like James Taylor - I have no doubt he can create a pretty gray day around himself anytime of the day or night and stay there. He's talked about that. It's important to learn how to work with ourselves and use resources that help not hurt.
There's a sweetness to sadness at times, like a whiff of yesterdays remembered. A little bit goes a long way.
I think of it as the nature of existence, of how we experience life and time. We are only fulfilled in the continuous flow forward that's fed from the past. Like rivers, that always look the same each time we enjoy them but in fact each time never have the same water in them, ever.
Music's a good one. Enjoy.
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socks
TWI's music - I'm probably the biggest cupcake you'll find although I can be somewhat uh blunt at times too. But I respect effort. It's always good to remember how much work it takes to do anything well and that what I see another do may be their best, their most and yet not be as accomplished as someone else.
I don't have to like it but I can be gracious in my treatment of others. I need to remember that, more often.
Humility defines greatness, IMO. I'm sure it's in the Bible too, if not I can probably fix something up that would sound about like it.
But I see our own humility towards ourselves, each other and our Creator that allows us to be what we are, whatever that is. Humility allows us to make room for others and for more, knowing that we can always learn, grow, keep trying.
If we're a-holes at heart, it will show sooner or later.
We can be great and recognize that too. Kids have no problem celebrating their own wonderfulness. It takes age to make us ashamed of what God's made us and allows us to be. Maybe it's because we get so afraid of losing what we have that we guard it greedily, manage how we share it and are scared to really give it away for fear we'll never have more. So we puff it up and memorialize it. "LOOK AT THE GREAT ME".
When I see the Wayfers and their dippidy doo dah music I groan, I really skarf up a hocknberry. I admit it, I do. But - it's not the music really, it's the manufactured greatness being displayed. It's so phoney it's funny.
What's that - hate the sin, love the sinner? Hate the crapola muza, love the - well, love the sound of it stopping . And then knowing those people might be doing something worthwhile and fun. Later. When not doing that. The music noise.
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