And WHY did the songbooks never have the music included, just the words?
I think mainly because the organization was just, plain, outlandishly CHEAP. Not frugal, just CHEAP.
Plus there were copyright and royalty issues. I think they really thought that if they printed up and gave the lyrics away, that they could avoid paying somebody royalties.
I can't speak to what it became. But I did like early Way Productions. Groups like, Selah, Pressed Down..., Goodseed. I even like Joyful Noise at first. By the Wake Up America time they were becoming less joyful and more plastic. I have the feeling that the early on most of the musicians sang from their heart and enjoyed playing and really meant to praise God with what they sang. When I visited much later, in the 90's I found not only Way Productions plactic, but the entire ministry. I remember commenting to my wife, "They took the Joy out of Joyful Noise."
I sing for our church at nursing homes and often sing a couple of songs from Joyful Noise's first album, the old people there really like Give Christ a Try, Christian Man, and Ready to Go.
And WHY did the songbooks never have the music included, just the words?
Since you got in when you did, you might not know that there was an earlier song book used in all the twigs. In the early '80s we were told we all had to buy NEW song books for our twigs and destroy the old ones. These new books had mostly old standard hymns and a few Way Prod songs.
It was never spoken much, but some of the folks I knew from HQ hinted that TWI was threatened with lawsuits over copyright disputes over selections in the earlier book. So the new books only had Public Domain selections or those that TWI owned.
Music was never included because most twigs did not have musicians available. If you were fortunate to have someone who could play the guitar, they likely couldn't read music.
Before the new books were released, TL's in my area were encouraged to get a copy of 'Thank You Dorothy, Thank You Rhoda' (available only on vinyl) and use that to play behind your songs. Tried it a few times - didn't work real well. We just kept singing it the way we wanted to.
Kevin is right, Bill Gaither who wrote lyrics and music for Family of God found out, threatened to sue for copyright infringement when Farrell and Wierwille re-wrote the words without asking permission. Also Lanny Wolfe's God's Wonderful People.
I guess one way to deal with less copyright laws was to not have sheet music?
also it saved paper just to copy words, and if you wanted to use music buy Ecumenical hymnals like Hymns for the Family of God, Hymns for the Living Church, Renew:Hymns and Songs for Worship, Celebration Hymnal, and Worship and Rejoice for fellowships except for "Trinitarian" texts that could not be revised. Most were in Public Domain which isn't under copyright laws.
They went through more copyright issues in the 90s also and had to take more songs out. Then Martindale did a request for original Way songs at a Rock of Ages. Several of the "approved" songs were added to the songbook, but most became very dated after a year or so because they keyed off the theme for the year. They were also, for the most part, pretty lame. Very simple songs that were written by people who obviously had no musical training. Or maybe it was just that they were uninspired, unlike the great inspirational hymns that have copyrights.
defining secular as being worldly, non-religious, something that is not specifically from or for spiritual concerns -
yeah, I've never really found a use for the term, although I admit that the designation does have a purpose.
music isn't secular / non-secular in it's basic intrinsic values of tone and rhythm. some would say just the opposite on both sides of the issue, that music is by nature a higher form of communication, expression and revelation.
a musician doesn't have a spiritual set of scales versus a secular set. in the same way, a writer doesn't have a spiritual pen and a secular pen they use. but there are songs about cars and songs about God and songs about love and songs about boo-ya! or whatever so....
I suppose there's a position that could refute that but what is plain and obvious about music lends itself to the simplest definition
intent, purpose, content - use, is what defines it. so yeah, there's value in having the genre to categorize i guess, but
alphabetical and numeric ordering works too.
at any rate it's always struck me as an odd term. it may be because music has a deep(er) effect or meaning to some than others, and so doesn't rely on specific lyric content to have specific meaning. music is personal for many people. not all but for many.
I liked Dan Moran's song 'Let us magnify His word' that got in the early 80s songbook.
As for way prod music, I'm like an oldies station for our fellowship. There are folks who write their own songs, but I often get the nod for big fellowships. I play songs like Gotta be God, Last night in Galilee, Putting wings to your prayer (pressed down), Daddy's arms, One by one, and the like. I got a huge response from the Cowboy's Father. That was on the 'Fellow workers with God' recording (1988). Not sure who wrote it but I think Dave Lutz sang it. Even the 20 something kids of old believers like that stuff. What can I say? It lives!
I recall working one RoA with a lass who told me that listening to the music had really healed her. She had been badly hurt in the past and couldn't cope with teaching/preaching, but the songs when she'd heard them enough really helped her. But she didn't say what songs.
Some of the early Way musicians stuff was good - I got in "late" and got some near-bootlegged copies as I believe by the time I heard them, they were on the banished list. A song that comes to mind is "Many Roads" which had a very catchy tune. Some of the stuff was dire...Singing Ladies of the Way.
As to music, I did get a set of the then-current SATW music printed and accompanied by tapes with the tunes on - that would be for the basic SATW songbook without the stick-in songs that went with each year's themes.
And yeah, SATW was stuff that was public domain, out of copyright - or TWI copyrighted.
My TC wrote a song once; it was lovely and we enjoyed singing it in our twig. She sang it one year at RoA, early 90s, and it was grabbed for Way Musicians, who took the tune, changed some of the words and demanded that was the version that was sung. She was generous about it...said what they'd changed improved the song...it didn't.
I talked with a guy in Way Prod a few years ago (right before we left). He told me that he and his wife (both in Way Prod) had turned in several songs but the music was always slowed down and changed from being rock sounding to ...something else. It was implied that Rosalie required this.
Sounds like exactly what happens with the STS teachings. Dumbed down and slowed down, all the soul taken out. The whole thing super sanitized to the point it isn't even recognizable.
Put through the TWI wringer and squeezed until boring.
I talked with a guy in Way Prod a few years ago (right before we left). He told me that he and his wife (both in Way Prod) had turned in several songs but the music was always slowed down and changed from being rock sounding to ...something else. It was implied that Rosalie required this.
Like everything else she manages, Rosie micromanages the crap out of way productions. I think she has no musical background either, besides what she learned from WierWolfe, if you can count that. Way production is a direct reflection of Rosalie, as it the STS. Boring, stale, lifeless, utterly awful.
at any rate it's always struck me as an odd term. it may be because music has a deep(er) effect or meaning to some than others, and so doesn't rely on specific lyric content to have specific meaning. music is personal for many people. not all but for many.
it's very personal for me
johnyam i LOVE dan's song "let us magnify the name of the lord"
there are many others i love that have healed my heart and soul
We were taught that music in a minor key was off the Word. A classic pianist I know was really annoyed by that. Her opinion is that it's full of bunk.
What's the difference between a Major key and a Minor key? Simple, the note they begin on. As an example, C Major and A Minor share the same scale, they just start on different notes. That's why they are described as being "relative" to one another.
Marvin Hamlisch, who just died earlier this month, had a thing for that tune - his earliest accomplishments included playing it in any key - he was a bit of a prodigy. It's one of many American standards worth doing some study on.
MFV starts in minor, goes to the relative major, and has interesting changes throughout. That's a very standard form, minor to major, or major to minor in the song structure.
Years ago after "The Way We Were" was such a hit for Streisand, Hamlisch was quoted in Songwriter magazine as saying his goal with TWWW was to write My Funny Valentine - in a major key. So it was a bit of an exercise for him around certain parameters, plus he said the urge to not be the guy to write a bomb for Streisand. It was definitely a hit. (Still have that magazine, with his photo on the cover, it has stuff I used in lessons over the years but it's dated now).
The Way We Were was in a major key and had that melancholic "minor" feel, some tasty melody, but doesn't hit the minor third in the opening lines to establish a characteristic "minor" feel - in fact it only flirts at the minor 7th briefly as a "blue note" for one note on the "memory" - a very subtle use of tone.
The whole minor/major thing, the "dark" versus upbeat - it's basic music theory. And the earliest musics of the bible cultures relied heavily on linear monophonic music that used flatted and sharped notes a-go-go. Still do. Minor implies a more serious tone in Western music but does not in all world music by any means. There are similarities that run through different culture's musics though but they don't all mean the same thing to those outside of them.
In fact when David and his gang celebrated in song and dance I doubt it sounded like "Father Along" or anything like it. But it reads like they definitely knew how to get down.
"Off the Word" is an unwieldy euphemism that is difficult to use meaningfully anyway.
Socks: Do you remember the original version of 'Stand and be counted'? If I recall, JN was sent on the field during the 77/78 ministry year, but one weekend they got you all back at HQ and had you play for the SNS. Stand and be counted was one of the songs you played. Brian led into the chorus with a buh-da-dum buh-da-dum buh-da-dum kind of piano riff immediately before the words 'stand and be counted' were sung. I thought it was cool. It reminded me of the style of Todd Rundgren's Utopiah pianist Roger Powell (who later played with Bob James). But, alas, the "sanitized" version which appeared on the 'God's Team' album did not include riffs like that. Might get somebody possessed, y'know. Tell me that rings a bell....
What's the difference between a Major key and a Minor key?
There are sets of scales, called modes, that pick up on each respective note of the major scale.
They are:
Ionian - Major Scale
Dorian - Constructed from the second note of a major scale
Phrygian - "" Third note ""
Lydian - "" fourth note ""
Mixolydian - "" fifth note ""
Aeolian - Minor scale..."" sixth note ""
Locrian - "" seventh note ""
When guitarist solo they follow the underlying chord structure by matching the scale to the chord. Chords are numbered 1-7 as well. I am over simplifying this, but you get the point.
Now tell me....what is so evil about any of them? Nothing. It's pure ignorance on TWI's part to try and keep most songs sounding "upbeat" --- which usually is in the Major key.
I studied music at Musicians Institute, played professionally in LA - NYC. When I was way corps they knew I could play guitar at a very high level. They put me in charge of grounds when I graduated. Genius, no?
Rosalie does not want competent musicians in way prod because Wierwolfe taught her that good musicians always get egos. Whenever I heard her talk about this she would reference Pressed Down, and how Wierwille had a blow out with them and had them taking out the garbage the next day.
Meaning in all of my drivel? ===-- Way productions sucks because there is slim talent that is squelched by Rozilla.
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Keith
I can't speak to what it became. But I did like early Way Productions. Groups like, Selah, Pressed Down..., Goodseed. I even like Joyful Noise at first. By the Wake Up America time they were becomin
Ham
I think mainly because the organization was just, plain, outlandishly CHEAP. Not frugal, just CHEAP.
Plus there were copyright and royalty issues. I think they really thought that if they printed up and gave the lyrics away, that they could avoid paying somebody royalties.
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Keith
I can't speak to what it became. But I did like early Way Productions. Groups like, Selah, Pressed Down..., Goodseed. I even like Joyful Noise at first. By the Wake Up America time they were becoming less joyful and more plastic. I have the feeling that the early on most of the musicians sang from their heart and enjoyed playing and really meant to praise God with what they sang. When I visited much later, in the 90's I found not only Way Productions plactic, but the entire ministry. I remember commenting to my wife, "They took the Joy out of Joyful Noise."
I sing for our church at nursing homes and often sing a couple of songs from Joyful Noise's first album, the old people there really like Give Christ a Try, Christian Man, and Ready to Go.
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outandabout
When I've looked at some of the music on TWI's website, I can hardly stand it for more than 30 seconds.
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Kevin Fallon
Since you got in when you did, you might not know that there was an earlier song book used in all the twigs. In the early '80s we were told we all had to buy NEW song books for our twigs and destroy the old ones. These new books had mostly old standard hymns and a few Way Prod songs.
It was never spoken much, but some of the folks I knew from HQ hinted that TWI was threatened with lawsuits over copyright disputes over selections in the earlier book. So the new books only had Public Domain selections or those that TWI owned.
Music was never included because most twigs did not have musicians available. If you were fortunate to have someone who could play the guitar, they likely couldn't read music.
Before the new books were released, TL's in my area were encouraged to get a copy of 'Thank You Dorothy, Thank You Rhoda' (available only on vinyl) and use that to play behind your songs. Tried it a few times - didn't work real well. We just kept singing it the way we wanted to.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Kevin is right, Bill Gaither who wrote lyrics and music for Family of God found out, threatened to sue for copyright infringement when Farrell and Wierwille re-wrote the words without asking permission. Also Lanny Wolfe's God's Wonderful People.
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JavaJane
I guess one way to deal with less copyright laws was to not have sheet music?
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
also it saved paper just to copy words, and if you wanted to use music buy Ecumenical hymnals like Hymns for the Family of God, Hymns for the Living Church, Renew:Hymns and Songs for Worship, Celebration Hymnal, and Worship and Rejoice for fellowships except for "Trinitarian" texts that could not be revised. Most were in Public Domain which isn't under copyright laws.
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excathedra
oh i didn't reply here?
music - twi music - has healed my soul and life much more than teachings
"secular" music - what a weird term -- too
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What About It
They went through more copyright issues in the 90s also and had to take more songs out. Then Martindale did a request for original Way songs at a Rock of Ages. Several of the "approved" songs were added to the songbook, but most became very dated after a year or so because they keyed off the theme for the year. They were also, for the most part, pretty lame. Very simple songs that were written by people who obviously had no musical training. Or maybe it was just that they were uninspired, unlike the great inspirational hymns that have copyrights.
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socks
exchaskell, "secular" music -
defining secular as being worldly, non-religious, something that is not specifically from or for spiritual concerns -
yeah, I've never really found a use for the term, although I admit that the designation does have a purpose.
music isn't secular / non-secular in it's basic intrinsic values of tone and rhythm. some would say just the opposite on both sides of the issue, that music is by nature a higher form of communication, expression and revelation.
a musician doesn't have a spiritual set of scales versus a secular set. in the same way, a writer doesn't have a spiritual pen and a secular pen they use. but there are songs about cars and songs about God and songs about love and songs about boo-ya! or whatever so....
I suppose there's a position that could refute that but what is plain and obvious about music lends itself to the simplest definition
intent, purpose, content - use, is what defines it. so yeah, there's value in having the genre to categorize i guess, but
alphabetical and numeric ordering works too.
at any rate it's always struck me as an odd term. it may be because music has a deep(er) effect or meaning to some than others, and so doesn't rely on specific lyric content to have specific meaning. music is personal for many people. not all but for many.
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chockfull
Yeah, they wouldn't allow "secular" influences. "Sexular" now, was perfectly ok. What a crock.
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johniam
I liked Dan Moran's song 'Let us magnify His word' that got in the early 80s songbook.
As for way prod music, I'm like an oldies station for our fellowship. There are folks who write their own songs, but I often get the nod for big fellowships. I play songs like Gotta be God, Last night in Galilee, Putting wings to your prayer (pressed down), Daddy's arms, One by one, and the like. I got a huge response from the Cowboy's Father. That was on the 'Fellow workers with God' recording (1988). Not sure who wrote it but I think Dave Lutz sang it. Even the 20 something kids of old believers like that stuff. What can I say? It lives!
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Twinky
I recall working one RoA with a lass who told me that listening to the music had really healed her. She had been badly hurt in the past and couldn't cope with teaching/preaching, but the songs when she'd heard them enough really helped her. But she didn't say what songs.
Some of the early Way musicians stuff was good - I got in "late" and got some near-bootlegged copies as I believe by the time I heard them, they were on the banished list. A song that comes to mind is "Many Roads" which had a very catchy tune. Some of the stuff was dire...Singing Ladies of the Way.
As to music, I did get a set of the then-current SATW music printed and accompanied by tapes with the tunes on - that would be for the basic SATW songbook without the stick-in songs that went with each year's themes.
And yeah, SATW was stuff that was public domain, out of copyright - or TWI copyrighted.
My TC wrote a song once; it was lovely and we enjoyed singing it in our twig. She sang it one year at RoA, early 90s, and it was grabbed for Way Musicians, who took the tune, changed some of the words and demanded that was the version that was sung. She was generous about it...said what they'd changed improved the song...it didn't.
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JavaJane
I talked with a guy in Way Prod a few years ago (right before we left). He told me that he and his wife (both in Way Prod) had turned in several songs but the music was always slowed down and changed from being rock sounding to ...something else. It was implied that Rosalie required this.
Sounds like exactly what happens with the STS teachings. Dumbed down and slowed down, all the soul taken out. The whole thing super sanitized to the point it isn't even recognizable.
Put through the TWI wringer and squeezed until boring.
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OldSkool
Like everything else she manages, Rosie micromanages the crap out of way productions. I think she has no musical background either, besides what she learned from WierWolfe, if you can count that. Way production is a direct reflection of Rosalie, as it the STS. Boring, stale, lifeless, utterly awful.
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excathedra
johnyam i LOVE dan's song "let us magnify the name of the lord"
there are many others i love that have healed my heart and soul
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outandabout
We were taught that music in a minor key was off the Word. A classic pianist I know was really annoyed by that. Her opinion is that it's full of bunk.
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waysider
What's the difference between a Major key and a Minor key? Simple, the note they begin on. As an example, C Major and A Minor share the same scale, they just start on different notes. That's why they are described as being "relative" to one another.
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chockfull
Incredible display of lack of understanding of music. I agree with the classical pianist.
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socks
:)
"My Funny Valentine" is a pop/jazz standard that lends itself to that analysis ways'. http://www.jazzstand...nyvalentine.htm (great site too).
Marvin Hamlisch, who just died earlier this month, had a thing for that tune - his earliest accomplishments included playing it in any key - he was a bit of a prodigy. It's one of many American standards worth doing some study on.
MFV starts in minor, goes to the relative major, and has interesting changes throughout. That's a very standard form, minor to major, or major to minor in the song structure.
Years ago after "The Way We Were" was such a hit for Streisand, Hamlisch was quoted in Songwriter magazine as saying his goal with TWWW was to write My Funny Valentine - in a major key. So it was a bit of an exercise for him around certain parameters, plus he said the urge to not be the guy to write a bomb for Streisand. It was definitely a hit. (Still have that magazine, with his photo on the cover, it has stuff I used in lessons over the years but it's dated now).
The Way We Were was in a major key and had that melancholic "minor" feel, some tasty melody, but doesn't hit the minor third in the opening lines to establish a characteristic "minor" feel - in fact it only flirts at the minor 7th briefly as a "blue note" for one note on the "memory" - a very subtle use of tone.
The whole minor/major thing, the "dark" versus upbeat - it's basic music theory. And the earliest musics of the bible cultures relied heavily on linear monophonic music that used flatted and sharped notes a-go-go. Still do. Minor implies a more serious tone in Western music but does not in all world music by any means. There are similarities that run through different culture's musics though but they don't all mean the same thing to those outside of them.
In fact when David and his gang celebrated in song and dance I doubt it sounded like "Father Along" or anything like it.
But it reads like they definitely knew how to get down.
"Off the Word" is an unwieldy euphemism that is difficult to use meaningfully anyway.
Interesting topic though!
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Steve Lortz
TWI was an incredible display of lack of understanding of EVERYTHING!
PFAL was an incredible display of lack of understanding of the Word of God!
Love,
Steve
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johniam
Socks: Do you remember the original version of 'Stand and be counted'? If I recall, JN was sent on the field during the 77/78 ministry year, but one weekend they got you all back at HQ and had you play for the SNS. Stand and be counted was one of the songs you played. Brian led into the chorus with a buh-da-dum buh-da-dum buh-da-dum kind of piano riff immediately before the words 'stand and be counted' were sung. I thought it was cool. It reminded me of the style of Todd Rundgren's Utopiah pianist Roger Powell (who later played with Bob James). But, alas, the "sanitized" version which appeared on the 'God's Team' album did not include riffs like that. Might get somebody possessed, y'know. Tell me that rings a bell....
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OldSkool
There are sets of scales, called modes, that pick up on each respective note of the major scale.
They are:
Ionian - Major Scale
Dorian - Constructed from the second note of a major scale
Phrygian - "" Third note ""
Lydian - "" fourth note ""
Mixolydian - "" fifth note ""
Aeolian - Minor scale..."" sixth note ""
Locrian - "" seventh note ""
When guitarist solo they follow the underlying chord structure by matching the scale to the chord. Chords are numbered 1-7 as well. I am over simplifying this, but you get the point.
Now tell me....what is so evil about any of them? Nothing. It's pure ignorance on TWI's part to try and keep most songs sounding "upbeat" --- which usually is in the Major key.
I studied music at Musicians Institute, played professionally in LA - NYC. When I was way corps they knew I could play guitar at a very high level. They put me in charge of grounds when I graduated. Genius, no?
Rosalie does not want competent musicians in way prod because Wierwolfe taught her that good musicians always get egos. Whenever I heard her talk about this she would reference Pressed Down, and how Wierwille had a blow out with them and had them taking out the garbage the next day.
Meaning in all of my drivel? ===-- Way productions sucks because there is slim talent that is squelched by Rozilla.
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waysider
Is
Yeah...a major situation, givin' me the minor blues.
Don't talk about it or try to fix it, though. That might bum you out..couldn't have that, now, could we?
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