"....that morning I dropped next to my chair and I asked God to forgive me. I promised the Father that if He would forgive me,as long as I lived I would never preach a negative sermon, I would never condemn anybody."
I think this happens in all walks of life. People say they want your honest opinion. When you give it to them and it doesn't agree with their own, their "interest" quickly fades. I suppose, in some way, they ask you because they are seeking to have their own opinion validated.
I think this happens in all walks of life. People say they want your honest opinion. When you give it to them and it doesn't agree with their own, their "interest" quickly fades. I suppose, in some way, they ask you because they are seeking to have their own opinion validated.
Yeah, it happens in all walks of life......but earth-shaking 'evil associations and cultish groupthink' discussions
can rock the foundation of one's core beliefs. Ironic, isn't it? In an OPEN forum.....OPEN discussion.....OPEN
thoughtful conversation, the twi-follower cannot handle OPEN investigation.
1) Who was victor paul wierwille.....really.
2) Twi was NOT really founded in 1942.
3) Wierwille still on church payroll in 1957.
4) BG Leonard's class....twi's foundation.
5) VPW was not original, with no snowstorm revelation.
Yet, year after year, I started to detect a pattern to wierwille's teachings. Interspersed at certain junctures was a scoff, or a scorn, or a smug snigger, or a mocking, or a putdown, or a potshot........at the opponent. Plenty of these were scattered even in pfal.....the scholar on the other side of the English Channel that wierwille wouldn't "waste his time on".....the fearful mother whose little Johnnie was killed while walking home......when vpw spoke High German and the ministers were giddy with excitement that vpw had spoken in tongues. At the expense of others' character, wierwille attempts to elevate his search, his findings, and summit.
The hours I have sat thinking about this very thing. There's another key to understanding his pattern. There's a point in the class when he starts addressing the students as "my people". After charming us with his humor, impressing us with his boldness, and endearing himself to us with his logic, he suddenly says we are his people. And so we were. He graciously permitted us to be his people, which changed the psychology of our relationship with him from teacher/student to teacher/follower.
It's as if he were some shining one standing before us.
The hours I have sat thinking about this very thing. There's another key to understanding his pattern. There's a point in the class when he starts addressing the students as "my people". After charming us with his humor, impressing us with his boldness, and endearing himself to us with his logic, he suddenly says we are his people. And so we were. He graciously permitted us to be his people, which changed the psychology of our relationship with him from teacher/student to teacher/follower.
It's as if he were some shining one standing before us.
OperaBuff.....oh, yeah, the psychology of teacher/follower relationship.
And...."uncle" Harry, the beloved and benevolent brother of vic who gave generously.
And...."it's good to be HOME again" sung at the start of roa.
And....spirit is thicker than blood; twi is your TRUE family.
And....the true household has the inside track of the whole christian family.
And...."uncle" Howard was introduced into twi-nomenclature circa 1994
And...."uncle" Howard was introduced into twi-nomenclature circa 1994
Earlier than 1994 - earlier 90s.
Interesting...we had "uncle" this person and that person. But their spouses weren't "aunt" - Aunt Imogene, Aunt Rhoda.
Even the spouse of "our father in the word" wasn't coat-tailed as "our mother in the Word" but was known as Mrs Wierwille, or more remotely as "the first lady of the Way" (gag).
I suppose she was the "first" as in the wife of the founder, but not "first" as in the wife of the president - just plain arrogant, that is. Not even first among equals.
I believe God says we are all sons of God. The only precedence in OT patriarchal society goes to the eldest son, the first-born, because of expected familial responsibilities in adult life (care of the widow and rest of the members of the family). There isn't that precedence among the NT letters.
I believe the position of first-born son of God was taken, hundreds of generations before Wierwille was thought of, in human terms.
Our brothers VPW, Mrs W, "uncles" Howard and Harry - are just that. Siblings, brothers. Just brothers. And naughty ones, at that. With no particular precedence.
Back in 1974......the young, rebel nature in me liked wierwille's directness on religion. Teaching after teaching, he jabbed and poked and mocked denominations and their ministers who didn't have answers; who lacked power just when they needed it most; and some who feared their own shadow. Wierwille embellished "his stories" to empower his message.
Yes, back then....wierwille had "game" and was adept at offense. He marketed his approach to the youth and their rebel-rousing ways against authoritarian rule. Whether it was institutions of higher learning, religious hierarchies, dudley do-right church goers, or misguided parents.....wierwille dismantled support systems and targeted vulnerabilities. The agenda is to knock you off-balance....to get you to question.....to raise suspicion and doubt. Once doubt is sufficiently raised, the "door" opens to a whole new set of paradigms.
After 33-hours of pfal.....supposedly, we now had "the keys to unlock the doors to the more abundant life."
Yet, year after year, I started to detect a pattern to wierwille's teachings. Interspersed at certain junctures was a scoff, or a scorn, or a smug snigger, or a mocking, or a putdown, or a potshot........at the opponent. Plenty of these were scattered even in pfal.....the scholar on the other side of the English Channel that wierwille wouldn't "waste his time on".....the fearful mother whose little Johnnie was killed while walking home......when vpw spoke High German and the ministers were giddy with excitement that vpw had spoken in tongues. At the expense of others' character, wierwille attempts to elevate his search, his findings, and summit.
No where was this pattern more prevalent than in-house corps and staff meetings. Rather than a genuine lifting up of the whole, the teachable moments were more predominant on the putdown/potshot side of the continuum. Corps meetings around 1980, 1981 was when I observed vpw's taintedness even more (as some 6th corps grads and clergy started exiting twi). Cop-outs, they were! See, they were in this nebulous, vague, general category of "forsaking the word" that was never explained. Just smeared! Even men like BG Leonard.....what did wierwille say about him? Or, EW Bullinger? Wait for it.......wait for it.......a scorn of "where they were off the word."
The game was either/or.
The game was black or white.
The game was with or against.
The game was us or them.
The game was "my way or the hi-way."
And, to this day.....twi IS smugly righteous in their own eyes.
I know.......I just had a long conversation with an innie yesterday.
:B)
.
Rumination -- chewing it over and over. Reflection -- a thought, idea or opinion formed as a result of meditation.
We had a LOT of experiences in TWI. Some of those experiences repeated over and over and over and over in similar if not nearly identical ways.
When we first went through those experiences, most of us as young adults perhaps (I was 19 when I first got involved with TWI) we interpreted those
experiences pretty much as we were told or according to expectations we had somehow developed.
Eventually, we were no longer just kids. Nagging dissatisfaction, coupled with learning from sources outside of the subculture into which we had
voluntarily assimilated may have caused us to begin questioning the original interpretations and expectations.
Some of us then post to Greasespot as a way of processing and reprocessing the replays of those experiences.
Pardon my rambling. Just thinking about how posting to greasespot and preceeding forums helped me reprocess the twelve years I was in TWI.
And subject to that reprocessing and re-imagining what it all really meant, I was able to assert independence from that subculture.
The hours I have sat thinking about this very thing. There's another key to understanding his pattern. There's a point in the class when he starts addressing the students as "my people". After charming us with his humor, impressing us with his boldness, and endearing himself to us with his logic, he suddenly says we are his people. And so we were. He graciously permitted us to be his people, which changed the psychology of our relationship with him from teacher/student to teacher/follower.
It's as if he were some shining one standing before us.
I'm not so sure about the humor part. I thought his jokes were pretty lame. And then if were we in the class as crew or repeat student, we had to laugh at them.
And then if were we in the class as crew or repeat student, we had to laugh at them.
I always thought there was a degree of deception having us function as shills and felt a sense of reluctance.
Having been involved in theatrical productions in my pre-TWI days, though, I allowed myself to rationalize it. Funny how the mind can betray your true nature.
For what it's worth-I knew I was a tool and a suck up , even as I willingly sat through that thing over 40 times. I stopped buying into the 'every time you hear the class it gets better' line about a dozen times in. I knew I was there to laugh at the jokes, talk 'the word' with the new students, and be a model wayfer. It all kind of came clear one evening in CT, with the limb leader visiting. He paced in the back, guffawed when "as far as I know, he hasn't cracked up yet...in the automobile"., gathered the grads together after class to ream us out for all the various crimes we committed during the evening. Yet I soldiered on for another 10 years, whether I was 'undersheperding' someone, running the class(which I did twice-why and how is a mystery), or just sitting like a lump for grad support. The expectations were there-the commitment, the code of conduct, the little ways that were meant to communicate the greatness of the greatness of it all. I forgot the point I was making. But I am glad I'm out of that zoo.
For what it's worth-I knew I was a tool and a suck up , even as I willingly sat through that thing over 40 times. I stopped buying into the 'every time you hear the class it gets better' line about a dozen times in. I knew I was there to laugh at the jokes, talk 'the word' with the new students, and be a model wayfer. It all kind of came clear one evening in CT, with the limb leader visiting. He paced in the back, guffawed when "as far as I know, he hasn't cracked up yet...in the automobile"., gathered the grads together after class to ream us out for all the various crimes we committed during the evening. Yet I soldiered on for another 10 years, whether I was 'undersheperding' someone, running the class(which I did twice-why and how is a mystery), or just sitting like a lump for grad support. The expectations were there-the commitment, the code of conduct, the little ways that were meant to communicate the greatness of the greatness of it all. I forgot the point I was making. But I am glad I'm out of that zoo.
Yep! Grads were told to attend every class to provide the subtle coercion group believing for the new students. That's probably why PFAL was free for grads. TWI let a lucrative source of income slip through its fingers by not charging grads $5 or $10 to retake the class. Guess they thought it more important to keep the coercion believing of the new people going than to charge the grads.
On nooooooo, it's bringing back memories! Gotta go home and make some coffee with the old grounds and then chew on a styrophome cup.
Talk about bringing back memories...just saw the movie, The Master. Great performances but the movie went on a little too long. Maybe that was just me. Hoffman's depiction of a controling cult leader (only without a Bible) was well done. But I got the shivers when he smoked Kools and rode a motorcycle.
Worth seeing, but only If you are ready to put yourself through some emotional stuff again...not sure I was. Didn't get much sleep last night. And I left TWI twenty-five years ago!
Rumination -- chewing it over and over. Reflection -- a thought, idea or opinion formed as a result of meditation.
We had a LOT of experiences in TWI. Some of those experiences repeated over and over and over and over in similar if not nearly identical ways.
When we first went through those experiences, most of us as young adults perhaps (I was 19 when I first got involved with TWI) we interpreted those
experiences pretty much as we were told or according to expectations we had somehow developed.
Eventually, we were no longer just kids. Nagging dissatisfaction, coupled with learning from sources outside of the subculture into which we had
voluntarily assimilated may have caused us to begin questioning the original interpretations and expectations.
Some of us then post to Greasespot as a way of processing and reprocessing the replays of those experiences.
Pardon my rambling. Just thinking about how posting to greasespot and preceeding forums helped me reprocess the twelve years I was in TWI.
And subject to that reprocessing and re-imagining what it all really meant, I was able to assert independence from that subculture.
Okay, that's all I have for now...
Thanks for listening. :)
Rocky.....one of the things about "processing and reprocessing" our twi experiences is to note that TWI was a moving target.
Depending on which twi period(s) one experienced, the processing takes its accounting:
1) In 1972, twi was small, insignificant, commune-ish, summer camps, miniscule corps program, meals in brc basement, vpw-charisma, love-bombing, etc.
2) By 1982, twi was expanding rapidly, music groups everywhere, five corps campuses, planes, motorcoaches, large WOW group, WOW-vet program, college outreach...
3) By 1992, twi was rebuilding after 'fog years,' some-80% walked away, geer/lynn/other splinters, new classes, consolidating branches, purges, legalism....
4) By 2002, twi was adjusting to martindale's ouster, rosie's micromanagement, script-reading on sundays, erasing lcm's classes, more turmoil and unrest....
5) By 2012, twi is.......uh, unclothed to public view, pathetic in its numbers, skewing its importance, and comical in its boastings of wierwille lore.
Yes, many experienced an overlapping of trends, policies, new leadership, growing legalism, etc. Some never went corps or staff.....and THEREFORE, have a whole different set of field perspectives and shuffling of local leadership. Some remain entrenched in the wierwille mystique of mogdom and refuse to consider any objective processing despite the overwhelming evidence of vpw's plagairism, predation and pontification.
Some really would rather live in a dilution past where they romanticize their 'significance in twi's spiritual subculture'.....period.
The open forum here at GS is a goldmine for those who really want to weigh its value. Unequivocally, these open discussions lay bare that wierwille's twi was structured, promoted, and proliferated under the guise of deception and denial.
Rocky.....one of the things about "processing and reprocessing" our twi experiences is to note that TWI was a moving target.
Depending on which twi period(s) one experienced, the processing takes its accounting:
1) In 1972, twi was small, insignificant, commune-ish, summer camps, miniscule corps program, meals in brc basement, vpw-charisma, love-bombing, etc.
2) By 1982, twi was expanding rapidly, music groups everywhere, five corps campuses, planes, motorcoaches, large WOW group, WOW-vet program, college outreach...
3) By 1992, twi was rebuilding after 'fog years,' some-80% walked away, geer/lynn/other splinters, new classes, consolidating branches, purges, legalism....
4) By 2002, twi was adjusting to martindale's ouster, rosie's micromanagement, script-reading on sundays, erasing lcm's classes, more turmoil and unrest....
5) By 2012, twi is.......uh, unclothed to public view, pathetic in its numbers, skewing its importance, and comical in its boastings of wierwille lore.
Yes, many experienced an overlapping of trends, policies, new leadership, growing legalism, etc. Some never went corps or staff.....and THEREFORE, have a whole different set of field perspectives and shuffling of local leadership. Some remain entrenched in the wierwille mystique of mogdom and refuse to consider any objective processing despite the overwhelming evidence of vpw's plagairism, predation and pontification.
Some really would rather live in a dilution past where they romanticize their 'significance in twi's spiritual subculture'.....period.
The open forum here at GS is a goldmine for those who really want to weigh its value. Unequivocally, these open discussions lay bare that wierwille's twi was structured, promoted, and proliferated under the guise of deception and denial.
I don't go to any church any more. No bible study. In the mid-1990s, I attended a community church for a couple of years.
Don't feel a need to be involved in any of it any more.
This is exactly my life too. I find all organized relition too constricting and it gets in the way of my life and walk with my Creator. I believe church has its place for teaching new people, but it often keeps them stuck. And if they want to expand their learning of spiritual things in ANY context, they are condemned for their curiosity.
I believe that Jesus came to free us up from all the organized religions that were keeping individuals separate from a personal journey with God.
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waysider
PFAL pg. 17,18
"....that morning I dropped next to my chair and I asked God to forgive me. I promised the Father that if He would forgive me,as long as I lived I would never preach a negative sermon, I would never condemn anybody."
..................................................................
He wasn't very good at keeping promises, was he?
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skyrider
Yeah......and in wierwille's mind, he probably never did.
Here's another thing.....in my long conversation on Saturday with a long-standing innie,
she wanted to hear the details of why my wife and I exited twi. So, I gave her the background,
the lead-up to our exit, our meeting with region coordinators, and that a year later--they too left,
red-flags, etc.....while she listened.
Of course, she kept saying that "the ministry is MUCH BETTER NOW WITHOUT MARTINDALE AS PRESIDENT" and all.
That seems to be twi's mantra of using martindale as the fall guy and keep wierwille's mogship intact.
So....when I gave this innie several examples of wierwille's sexual predations, his plagairism, his flawed
research, his "cancer is a devil spirit" and wierwille died of cancer, etc........she had to regroup her
thoughts for a bit.
Then......she admitted that SHE DOESN'T CARE WHAT HAPPENS AT HQ.
Rosalie and 'those people' do NOT affect her life.
Besides, she rarily goes to hq anyway and that's fine with her.
Right now, she enjoys her local fellowship coordinator and his teachings.
Her divorce (involving another innie) is over....and she's moving on.
I've heard this before....many times actually. Whenever I'm asked to explain my reasons for leaving twi
and specify details that are undeniably irrefutable, the innie will distance herself/himself from it
and claim LOCAL LEADERSHIP IS WHAT MATTERS.
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waysider
I think this happens in all walks of life. People say they want your honest opinion. When you give it to them and it doesn't agree with their own, their "interest" quickly fades. I suppose, in some way, they ask you because they are seeking to have their own opinion validated.
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skyrider
Yeah, it happens in all walks of life......but earth-shaking 'evil associations and cultish groupthink' discussions
can rock the foundation of one's core beliefs. Ironic, isn't it? In an OPEN forum.....OPEN discussion.....OPEN
thoughtful conversation, the twi-follower cannot handle OPEN investigation.
1) Who was victor paul wierwille.....really.
2) Twi was NOT really founded in 1942.
3) Wierwille still on church payroll in 1957.
4) BG Leonard's class....twi's foundation.
5) VPW was not original, with no snowstorm revelation.
6) Plagairism.....opportunist....misogynist....predator.
7) No, no, no....it wasn't wierwille. Martindale was the problem.
8) Mrs. W's book gives details that debunk vpw's mogdom.
9) Central control at hq.....while innies desire local support.
10) The smell of legalism has been in the air since mid-70s.
11) Power manifested? Where? Why is twi so stagnant?
12) Twi never was, nor is, what it was purported to be.
Is there any wonder why twi isolates their people from such OPEN discussions?
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waysider
Martindale's just a handy fall guy. The Way's problems started before he was even born.
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OperaBuff
The hours I have sat thinking about this very thing. There's another key to understanding his pattern. There's a point in the class when he starts addressing the students as "my people". After charming us with his humor, impressing us with his boldness, and endearing himself to us with his logic, he suddenly says we are his people. And so we were. He graciously permitted us to be his people, which changed the psychology of our relationship with him from teacher/student to teacher/follower.
It's as if he were some shining one standing before us.
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skyrider
OperaBuff.....oh, yeah, the psychology of teacher/follower relationship.
And...."uncle" Harry, the beloved and benevolent brother of vic who gave generously.
And...."it's good to be HOME again" sung at the start of roa.
And....spirit is thicker than blood; twi is your TRUE family.
And....the true household has the inside track of the whole christian family.
And...."uncle" Howard was introduced into twi-nomenclature circa 1994
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excathedra
oh tears heartache whenever i am reminded about the poor mom who killed her one and only little johnny
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Twinky
Earlier than 1994 - earlier 90s.
Interesting...we had "uncle" this person and that person. But their spouses weren't "aunt" - Aunt Imogene, Aunt Rhoda.
Even the spouse of "our father in the word" wasn't coat-tailed as "our mother in the Word" but was known as Mrs Wierwille, or more remotely as "the first lady of the Way" (gag).
I suppose she was the "first" as in the wife of the founder, but not "first" as in the wife of the president - just plain arrogant, that is. Not even first among equals.
I believe God says we are all sons of God. The only precedence in OT patriarchal society goes to the eldest son, the first-born, because of expected familial responsibilities in adult life (care of the widow and rest of the members of the family). There isn't that precedence among the NT letters.
I believe the position of first-born son of God was taken, hundreds of generations before Wierwille was thought of, in human terms.
Our brothers VPW, Mrs W, "uncles" Howard and Harry - are just that. Siblings, brothers. Just brothers. And naughty ones, at that. With no particular precedence.
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Rocky
Rumination -- chewing it over and over. Reflection -- a thought, idea or opinion formed as a result of meditation.
We had a LOT of experiences in TWI. Some of those experiences repeated over and over and over and over in similar if not nearly identical ways.
When we first went through those experiences, most of us as young adults perhaps (I was 19 when I first got involved with TWI) we interpreted those
experiences pretty much as we were told or according to expectations we had somehow developed.
Eventually, we were no longer just kids. Nagging dissatisfaction, coupled with learning from sources outside of the subculture into which we had
voluntarily assimilated may have caused us to begin questioning the original interpretations and expectations.
Some of us then post to Greasespot as a way of processing and reprocessing the replays of those experiences.
Pardon my rambling. Just thinking about how posting to greasespot and preceeding forums helped me reprocess the twelve years I was in TWI.
And subject to that reprocessing and re-imagining what it all really meant, I was able to assert independence from that subculture.
Okay, that's all I have for now...
Thanks for listening. :)
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outandabout
I'm not so sure about the humor part. I thought his jokes were pretty lame. And then if were we in the class as crew or repeat student, we had to laugh at them.
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waysider
I always thought there was a degree of deception having us function as shills and felt a sense of reluctance.
Having been involved in theatrical productions in my pre-TWI days, though, I allowed myself to rationalize it. Funny how the mind can betray your true nature.
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excathedra
his jokes sucked and we were suck-ups for laughing :)
rocky, thanks, good to see you
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hiway29
For what it's worth-I knew I was a tool and a suck up , even as I willingly sat through that thing over 40 times. I stopped buying into the 'every time you hear the class it gets better' line about a dozen times in. I knew I was there to laugh at the jokes, talk 'the word' with the new students, and be a model wayfer. It all kind of came clear one evening in CT, with the limb leader visiting. He paced in the back, guffawed when "as far as I know, he hasn't cracked up yet...in the automobile"., gathered the grads together after class to ream us out for all the various crimes we committed during the evening. Yet I soldiered on for another 10 years, whether I was 'undersheperding' someone, running the class(which I did twice-why and how is a mystery), or just sitting like a lump for grad support. The expectations were there-the commitment, the code of conduct, the little ways that were meant to communicate the greatness of the greatness of it all. I forgot the point I was making. But I am glad I'm out of that zoo.
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OperaBuff
Yep! Grads were told to attend every class to provide the subtle coercion group believing for the new students. That's probably why PFAL was free for grads. TWI let a lucrative source of income slip through its fingers by not charging grads $5 or $10 to retake the class. Guess they thought it more important to keep the coercion believing of the new people going than to charge the grads.
You're the best.
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outandabout
On nooooooo, it's bringing back memories! Gotta go home and make some coffee with the old grounds and then chew on a styrophome cup.
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penworks
Talk about bringing back memories...just saw the movie, The Master. Great performances but the movie went on a little too long. Maybe that was just me. Hoffman's depiction of a controling cult leader (only without a Bible) was well done. But I got the shivers when he smoked Kools and rode a motorcycle.
Worth seeing, but only If you are ready to put yourself through some emotional stuff again...not sure I was. Didn't get much sleep last night. And I left TWI twenty-five years ago!
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skyrider
Rocky.....one of the things about "processing and reprocessing" our twi experiences is to note that TWI was a moving target.
Depending on which twi period(s) one experienced, the processing takes its accounting:
1) In 1972, twi was small, insignificant, commune-ish, summer camps, miniscule corps program, meals in brc basement, vpw-charisma, love-bombing, etc.
2) By 1982, twi was expanding rapidly, music groups everywhere, five corps campuses, planes, motorcoaches, large WOW group, WOW-vet program, college outreach...
3) By 1992, twi was rebuilding after 'fog years,' some-80% walked away, geer/lynn/other splinters, new classes, consolidating branches, purges, legalism....
4) By 2002, twi was adjusting to martindale's ouster, rosie's micromanagement, script-reading on sundays, erasing lcm's classes, more turmoil and unrest....
5) By 2012, twi is.......uh, unclothed to public view, pathetic in its numbers, skewing its importance, and comical in its boastings of wierwille lore.
Yes, many experienced an overlapping of trends, policies, new leadership, growing legalism, etc. Some never went corps or staff.....and THEREFORE, have a whole different set of field perspectives and shuffling of local leadership. Some remain entrenched in the wierwille mystique of mogdom and refuse to consider any objective processing despite the overwhelming evidence of vpw's plagairism, predation and pontification.
Some really would rather live in a dilution past where they romanticize their 'significance in twi's spiritual subculture'.....period.
The open forum here at GS is a goldmine for those who really want to weigh its value. Unequivocally, these open discussions lay bare that wierwille's twi was structured, promoted, and proliferated under the guise of deception and denial.
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excathedra
i would like to see that penworks, i think.....
--
now, how can i explain this?
people who think their little local wayfer twig is AOK they don't deal with HQ
i feel the same way about the way as i do the catholic church
if the head of it is corrupt, why
oh never mind right now
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Rocky
Yep. No argument from me on any of that.
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Rocky
I don't go to any church any more. No bible study. In the mid-1990s, I attended a community church for a couple of years.
Don't feel a need to be involved in any of it any more.
I don't knock people who do attend... I guess each has to work out their own salvation, or something like that.
But when, because of current affairs (news reporting) or talking to people in the course of my life, I hear or read or
think about things people believe, many times the Catholic Church stuff seems pretty weird. Of course, so does
a lot of other things people do because of religion.
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Rejoice
This is exactly my life too. I find all organized relition too constricting and it gets in the way of my life and walk with my Creator. I believe church has its place for teaching new people, but it often keeps them stuck. And if they want to expand their learning of spiritual things in ANY context, they are condemned for their curiosity.
I believe that Jesus came to free us up from all the organized religions that were keeping individuals separate from a personal journey with God.
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shazdancer
Simple question, then: who is your money supporting?
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