Treated like children

[Twinky]

In a more serious vein, one of the things the Lord taught me when I first got serious with Him, years before I ever heard of TWI, was that freedom and responsibility are the same thing. They are the head and the tail of a single coin.

Too right, Steve. And most parents teach that to their kids, from an early age.

LCM did bang on sometimes about there being no "rights" without "responsibility". He addressed that to wider worldly issues but thinking about it now, in Wayworld, we had neither rights nor responsibility.

(And of course I understand the darker underbelly of TWI now. Yet - rights to help oneself to Way women? But no responsibility towards them!!)

Wierwille taught us that we weren't mature enough to handle spiritual responsibility. In turning our responsibility over to him, we were also turning over our freedom.

And yet, it was in Wayworld that I heard - God trusts you, he has entrusted his Word to you.

Leaders at all levels of the Way tree were subtly taught to infantilize our followers in subtle ways, even as we were being infantilized from above.

The key to taking back our freedom was to take back our responsibility for ourselves. If, dear reader, you are still involved with TWI, think about that.

Love,

Steve

It's called "obedience" and "meekness," Steve. Two words that continue to make me cringe.

The key to taking back our freedom was to take back our responsibility for ourselves.

"You control your thinking, what goes on between your ears." Didn't they say that? (Of course, they meant, control your thinking to think only what we say you can think!)

Break out, folks! Your brain - you use it!!!

The most responsible thing any innie can do now is to THINK and consider what you're really obedient and meek to. Then BEAT THE FEET! Grow up!!

God will never leave you, never abandon you, never mark and avoid you. It can be tough outside Wayworld, but nothing like as tough as staying complacently within Wayworld.

[skyrider]

The key to taking back our freedom was to take back our responsibility for ourselves. If, dear reader, you are still involved with TWI, think about that.

On so many levels, twi stripped individual freedom and responsibility from our lives.

Whether it was manipulation, deception, coercion or repetition......our boundaries were invaded.

Singing those childish songs, with hand motions gets the mind saying obey, obey, yes, yes, do, do.

So, we follow their lead.....we follow their advice.....we follow their commands.

I hold to the belief that there WOULD have been a mass exodus even without Geer's POP paper.

People were moving on in their lives with kids, education, career choices, growing responsibilities.

Wierwille died in 1985......and one year later, there were NO FLOWERS on his grave.

There was no massive outpouring of wierwille adoration; no pilgrimages to twi headquarters.

Remember.....Geer used this to say "the U.S. way corps had forgotten their father in the Word."

Geer re-fueled another surge of wierwille adoration via guilt association.

Never underestimate twi's ability to utilize intimidation and guilt.

They loved to have their vanity stroked daily.

.

Edited August 25, 2012 by skyrider

[skyrider]

And to further the point.....

Back in 1974, 1975 twi-days.....wierwille stated that twigs were to be

1) self-governing

2) self-propagating

3) self-sustaining.

To those who were around 38 years ago (oh, my!)......

how controlling and oppressive it became in less than 10 years.

[waysider]

And to further the point.....

Back in 1974, 1975 twi-days.....wierwille stated that twigs were to be

1) self-governing

2) self-propagating

3) self-sustaining.

To those who were around 38 years ago (oh, my!)......

how controlling and oppressive it became in less than 10 years.

Ahhhhh!

But there's a caveat.

The Way Tree ©1974

Each twig is to be self supporting, self propagating and self governing in cooperation with its respective Branch as each Branch is to its respective Limb, as each Limb is to its respective Trunk, as each Trunk is to the Root of The Way.

(Bold font and resizing added)

............................

So, you see, it actually says the opposite of what we thought it said. The Twig is ultimately controlled by The Root. It was never intended to be "self" supporting, propagating or governing at all.

Edited August 25, 2012 by waysider

[socks]

Ahhhhh!

But there's a caveat.

The Way Tree ©1974

Each twig is to be self supporting, self propagating and self governing in cooperation with its respective Branch as each Branch is to its respective Limb, as each Limb is to its respective Trunk, as each Trunk is to the Root of The Way.

(Bold font and resizing added)

............................

So, you see, it actually says the opposite of what we thought it said. The Twig is ultimately controlled by The Root. It was never intended to be "self" supporting, propagating or governing at all.

Well, I can't speak for everyone/anyone else but me self and those I knew took all that to mean what it said - in cooperation with. That there was a process to apply to achieve the result. And it varied in application around the country and the essence was that the fellowships were self governing - a very significant term. For me the intent was to never do anything or everything that I and I alone wanted to do, otherwise I wouldn't have hooked up with the Way to begin with or would have left to do other things immediately after my initial efforts and had a different relationship with them. The idea for me was, in fact, to work in cooperation with and have the benefits of that relationship as a contributor and recipient. Most of the "Twig" coordinators, leaders basically became order takes as time went on though, they were required to be.

It's not an "it was this and then suddenly it became that" kind of thing. There were goals, intents, interests that developed over time and became more evident. For me many of the original ideas I understood that were being discussed happened, others simply didn't or were dropped. Things did change and as sky notes, everyone's lives would have brought other things to the top for them to manage. Chang e was going to happen however it came down the pike. The Way wasn't built to truly change through growth however, imo - not very well, at least.

[skyrider]

waysider/socks.......thanks.

No, I don't mean to imply that it was "this" and then, became "that".....

I guess that I sometimes just remember the liberating, flexible "acceptance" of the local twigs.

You know, when you could dip in and out according to your lifestyle and schedule and still be

warmly welcomed. No strings attached type-of-thing.

Kinda silly, probably......but I could "feel the love in the room whenever I was there." :)

[excathedra]

i understand what you mean, sky. even after the corpse program, db and i never considered questioning someone about why they had not attended twig, etc. i guess maybe we had had enough of that ourselves or felt it wasn't our business. we were happy when people came over

oh songs -- there was "father abraham" ahem

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

Singing kids' songs as a group:

It's a type of indoctrination. Specifically, it serves to de-emphasize the sense of individuality and reinforce the sense of group. That's why it was frowned upon when people would ad lib motions or words (ie: express individuality).

................in my opinion

edit:

The "call and response" we so frequently did is also an indoctrination reinforcement tool.

Q."Having done all, we do WHAT, class?"

A."STAND!"

Now I am hearing Hillsongs "The Stand by Joel Houston" but I enjoyed youalls silliness with kids songs,

Edited August 25, 2012 by Thomas Loy Bumgarner

[excathedra]

i really didn't like that call and response thing, now that you mention it

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

Native African hymns and Negro Spirituals use call and response,but adults singing children's songs on a regular basis is just plain stupid. Once in awhile is fine,but how often can you sing Jesus Loves me. Same thing with repetive Worship choruses like Lord I lift your name on high. boring :blink: :wacko: :unsure: :huh:

[TrustAndObey]

Don't measure ALL of Christianity by twi/ex-twi.

I've seen better than that in denominations since twi.

That includes the Roman Catholic Church- and I do NOT particularly LIKE the Roman Catholic Church.

I'm glad you've seen better.. I am being honest, It's rare to find one that hasn't grown up. And I have visited quite a few hundred churches since trying to find one that isn't, not that a few hundred is a large amount! lol..

But with very few exception, most all churches are ran like good ol' Sunday school, trying to teach those basic tenets that should have long been passed down. And to continue that teaching on grown adults who have been around for years?! What the ^&%$&% A few churches I went to, they have a separate Sunday school for the adults before the "main" gathering.. And outside of the fact that one setting had tables/desks and handouts, and the other just pews, their was very little difference to what was being shared and how everyone was treated.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough.. The majority (not all, but most) Churches today to me act more like little kindergarten classes for the masses.. You are told what to do, when to do it, How to do it, and questions are rarely tolerated. And most all of it is a rehash from the most basic of things most would have heard at least 10 times before that same year. I'm just curious as to what it is people are getting at these "meetings"? It's like the apostle Paul saying all over again, "When the time has come that you ought to be teachers, you have need that one teach you AGAIN!". Why is it that we think that is normal?! It's bad enough our public schools have gone down hill that they treat middle and high schoolers like their kindergarteners and college students the same. Has our reading comprehension gone so far south that we are incapable of reading and understanding things, so we need someone to lecture on and on with the same information that can be found in the textbook right in front of our noses?! That's what kindergarten is for folks..

Have we not progressed to being normal adults that are capable of thinking for ourselves. Understanding and making connections on our own, rather than requiring to be taught before we "get it"? Is Christianity so "tough" that we have to have help remembering what the heck is going on and instead need reminded week after week?!

What was it you learned at your "church" gathering last week? Was it really something you'd never heard, and didn't know? I used to hate that when I was in the Corps.. Constantly being asked, "what did you learn".. And I wanted to yell at them, NOTHING! There was nothing they said that I didn't already know. But everyone had to come up with something, and it was the same ol, milk toast thing you should have known from PIFLE.. "Oh, I learned to believe "BETTER"".. or "I learned to trust God "MORE"...."..

I would much rather have a sit down "discussion" with people that are willing to THINK for themselves than sit and be spoon fed like I'm a baby the same thing over and over.. I'm sorry, I'm just tired of the baby food. Maybe some still like being in kindergarten.

[socks]

I'm always the 5th wheel, I guess -

I lOVed the kid's tunes. They were fun

First time I sat in Mill Valley, CA with Jim and Steve's gang and sang "Camping in Canaan's Land" with all the hootie "ohhhhh I'm CAMPing - CAMPing! - "

I practically fell over laughing. Not so much "at" them - well, maybe a little but - mostly because it just sounded so weird. Camping - in Canann's Land - every day....the mind pictures, images....it was just funny. To me and the wif'.

As early as them days, in the East Bay, Oakland, Alameda - we weren't singing that many of those kinds of things although we did more as time went on buuuut hey - to each their own.

Same with the others - Roll Away, all those. In the Way Corps and at the Way Nash, it was like another planet, a dip into the culture of the east-kinda-mid-west mentalities.

"Like a great organ now!".....I think LOL could have been invented as a specific reaction to the phrase "like a great organ now!"..............I mean, really.

They were funny. I just sang 'em and moved on or ignored them and didn't if I was in a pis sy mood which was semi some of the time anyway. I was fun to sing most of the time though, didn't matter what the songs were to me, if they were fun. A lot of those tunes that everyone gaggled on as being so great were always a little tweezed to me anyway - personal taste.

But along those lines, one of my personal fav's I sang many times over the years, did my own arrangement for and really loved was "I Know Who Holds Tomorrow". That song was really nice, just wonderful lyrics. I'm sure to others it's hokey. That's fine too. Personal taste always tastes...personal.

[skyrider]

<snip>......

Have we not progressed to being normal adults that are capable of thinking for ourselves. Understanding and making connections on our own, rather than requiring to be taught before we "get it"? Is Christianity so "tough" that we have to have help remembering what the heck is going on and instead need reminded week after week?!

What was it you learned at your "church" gathering last week? Was it really something you'd never heard, and didn't know? I used to hate that when I was in the Corps.. Constantly being asked, "what did you learn".. And I wanted to yell at them, NOTHING! There was nothing they said that I didn't already know. But everyone had to come up with something, and it was the same ol, milk toast thing you should have known from PIFLE.. "Oh, I learned to believe "BETTER"".. or "I learned to trust God "MORE"...."..

I would much rather have a sit down "discussion" with people that are willing to THINK for themselves than sit and be spoon fed like I'm a baby the same thing over and over.. I'm sorry, I'm just tired of the baby food. Maybe some still like being in kindergarten.

:eusa_clap:

[TrustAndObey]

I'm always the 5th wheel, I guess -

I lOVed the kid's tunes. They were fun

socks, love ya.. And I'm not doubting we had fun times.. I enjoyed the fellowship, the camaraderie.. Didn't matter what type of songs or what the org did. That's not really what I'm referring to so much.. Songs are songs.. Fellowship is great to. But when you get right down to it. When you get to the point to where there was suppose to be some "adult" communication time, learning time, it fell far short of what it should have been, where once again we were being led and we were treated like sheep that just needed to shut up and follow.. We were expected to stay as little kindergarteners that needed to go along with their "rule" of the schoolhouse, and while school can be fun, it's not a place for adults to stay unless you're dropping off your kids or helping the little wee ones! OH wait, we were the little wee ones, at least in "their" eyes.

So the course they set for us was one of ever learning and ever needing to be taught by them again over and over... And even outside of TWI.. It's the same, unless you have some piece of paper and have been "authorized" by their council to teach, you just need to get in line with the the rest of the kiddies..

The songs continue, the fiddler never stops, and the kids keep a dancing, cause that's just the way it is!

[waysider]

I dunno. FellowLaborers was pretty small. There were only 50 of us at any given time. So, you couldn't really opt out of participation in ANYTHING, especially group singing. If you did, you'd be mighty conspicuous. Not good in a group that's driven by peer pressure. And, you always had to act like you were excited about it. "If I act excited, I'll be excited." Remember that stuff? We sang Roll Away after EVERY group meal, complete with hand motions and feigned enthusiasm. It's a 2 year program. Put a fresh battery in your calculator and do the math. :o

[JavaJane]

It's a million times worse in Rosalie TWI...

The teachings are dumbed down beyond belief. Staffers aren't even trusted to be adult enough to do the simplest tasks without minute supervision. And any deep personal research is considered (as I heard one recently graduated WC say) "vain, egotistical, intellectualism."

And it is BORING beyond belief. It was the boringness that actually allowed me enough thinking to make me wake up and smell the $#!+ hole TWI had become. So in a way I guess the end result was good for me.

[Steve Lortz]

socks, love ya.. And I'm not doubting we had fun times.. I enjoyed the fellowship, the camaraderie.. Didn't matter what type of songs or what the org did. That's not really what I'm referring to so much.. Songs are songs.. Fellowship is great to. But when you get right down to it. When you get to the point to where there was suppose to be some "adult" communication time, learning time, it fell far short of what it should have been, where once again we were being led and we were treated like sheep that just needed to shut up and follow.. We were expected to stay as little kindergarteners that needed to go along with their "rule" of the schoolhouse, and while school can be fun, it's not a place for adults to stay unless you're dropping off your kids or helping the little wee ones! OH wait, we were the little wee ones, at least in "their" eyes.

So the course they set for us was one of ever learning and ever needing to be taught by them again over and over... And even outside of TWI.. It's the same, unless you have some piece of paper and have been "authorized" by their council to teach, you just need to get in line with the the rest of the kiddies..

The songs continue, the fiddler never stops, and the kids keep a dancing, cause that's just the way it is!

I hear you, TrustAndObey. The one time my wife and I felt like we needed pastoral support, we started attending services at a local rescue mission. That was the closest place for us where the Christian rubber met the road. I am attending a regular chapel as part of my work toward a masters in theology. Students run the chapel services under supervision of the instructors, so in some ways the services are still rudimentary, but classroom discussions are VERY free wheeling, and my Constructive Theology prof has incorporated some things I brought to his attention into the class material for next semester. It will be interesting to see where the Lord takes all this.

I know my thesis is going to be something they've never seen before, but it will be written in the terms I've learned at the School of Theology, not in the terms of an heretical cult.

Love,

Steve

[skyrider]

But when you get right down to it. When you get to the point to where there was suppose to be some "adult" communication time, learning time, it fell far short of what it should have been, where once again we were being led and we were treated like sheep that just needed to shut up and follow.. We were expected to stay as little kindergarteners....

Twi's corps program was straight-up indoctrination.......and speeding towards wierwille-idolatry.

Twi's field fellowships had more of the "kindergarten component".......sitting in a circle, be quiet, cookies later.

:B)

[TrustAndObey]

Twi's corps program was straight-up indoctrination.......and speeding towards wierwille-idolatry.

Twi's field fellowships had more of the "kindergarten component".......sitting in a circle, be quiet, cookies later.

Indoctrination into idolatry it was..

And there still wasn't a point in time when Corps was considered "capable".. You still were in kindergarten and needed constant training, i.e. Corps Night/Morning. I've heard maybe the few early Corps were given some room, but it quickly grew to what it was when I went. We were supposedly trained to be leaders of 10s,100s, or more. Yet in reality, The BOT/BOD looked down on you like you needed their ever guiding help. Corps Night/Morning to me was mostly a snooze fest or a weird trip into someones egotistal view that was out in left field. Granted there was the occasional helpful tidbit, but all along, there was no room to ask "real" questions. Sit, listen, and do as they say, they could do no wrong, even when they clearly messed up. Don't look behind the curtain kids, that's only for us "spurtual" ones.. And you kedz ain't got it yet!

Yeah, even us Corps were treated like little kiddies. And if we went along with their curriculum, we imitated their ways and enslaved others into our own little kindergarten on the field or at HQ. And in many ways, we as Corps helped give their kindergarten class a greater reach.

Go to Martindale's era where all Corps were to turn in their weekly schedules, both the planned and actuals. My God, it got much worse than kindergarten! You could barely take a dump without having it planned and approved! And for awhile after Rosie took over, the Corps were allowed to teach live classes. What a refresher that was to the Corps. The release of the kids out of class. To think for once. Whoa.. It was a rush! But only until she realized she can't control that, and needed to real it back in. Yeah, she learned, it will not happen again.

And so life goes on as usual. But it's not just a problem within TWI. It's not just a problem within it's splinters. It's a problem within all of Christianity. As long as the majority of people consider church, something you go to, rather than something they are. Until they realize it's a gathering of adults who all have a say and a voice in the body, rather than the ruling elite/clergy. Until they realize that a gathering isn't for the purpose of being in a kindergarten class, but a gathering of equals that are their to help each other grow, instead of laying that task all at the feet of the pastor(s). Until the body wakes up, because it's been lulled to sleep from being in kindergarten class too long, and actually realizes it needs all the parts to FUNCTION and stop giving their control to the controllers.

Folks. this is not a new problem. It's the same problem since the days of Israel, who were too lazy and wanted a King to rule over them. That same mindset today in the body says the same damn thing. They don't want to be responsible. They don't want to take charge. They would rather.. stay in kindergarten..

I'm sorry, but that is the damn truth. And most of Christianity enjoys it.

Edited August 27, 2012 by TrustAndObey

[socks]

Hmmm, I guess, "fun times" yeah.

I had fun times before the Way and since. I have come to realize that some of the values that many had during their years in the Way weren't that high on my list. Something like "fun times" and comaraderie and such like, I've always had that with people, some people, anywhere anytime. I guess it's my background, maybe being a musician, dunno. Fun times weren't why I got involved in the way or why I left. Frankly I could have had funner times working with others in other situations. Nothing fun about working in Ohio back then - sweaty in the summer, freezing but in the winter. Interesting experience I'm glad I got it but not always all that much fun unless you're making your own.

I get the maturity thing though. You have to move on and out or over or whatever direction you take, staying in the Way wasn't going to work long term for me. Would have been nice but not to be.

[excathedra]

there was so much going in my head as i read, that i can't remember it lol

socks, what is "way nash"?

trust and obey, i agree with soooooooo much of what you said

um what else? at times i was very embarrassed when we sang to (unbelievers or believing unbelievers or goats or dogs or bats) guests at emporia

i absolutely love "i don't know who holds tomorrow, but i know who holds my hand"

every day is getting brighter as these golden stairs i climb

every dah dah dah dah dah dah dah dah

there the sun is always shining

no tears

dah dah dah dah dah

i don't know who holds tomorrow, but i know who holds my hand

please socks, help me out here lol lol

[socks]

I first saw that song in the old Way Song book, the "yellow" one, first copy I had. I sat and read the lyrics one night, before I'd heard the original. It seemed such an inspired song, sent me to another place, I worked out an arrangement of my own for it, different melody to the words.

The song ends with these lyrics:

There the sun is always shining

There no tear will dim my eye

At the ending of the rainbow

Where the mountains touch the sky.

Many things about tomorrow

I don't seem to understand.

But I know who holds tomorrow

And I know who holds my hand.

[skyrider]

And so life goes on as usual. But it's not just a problem within TWI. It's not just a problem within it's splinters. It's a problem within all of Christianity. As long as the majority of people consider church, something you go to, rather than something they are. Until they realize it's a gathering of adults who all have a say and a voice in the body, rather than the ruling elite/clergy. Until they realize that a gathering isn't for the purpose of being in a kindergarten class, but a gathering of equals that are their to help each other grow, instead of laying that task all at the feet of the pastor(s). Until the body wakes up, because it's been lulled to sleep from being in kindergarten class too long, and actually realizes it needs all the parts to FUNCTION and stop giving their control to the controllers.

Folks. this is not a new problem. It's the same problem since the days of Israel, who were too lazy and wanted a King to rule over them. That same mindset today in the body says the same damn thing. They don't want to be responsible. They don't want to take charge. They would rather.. stay in kindergarten..

I'm sorry, but that is the damn truth. And most of Christianity enjoys it.

T&O......your post addresses some deep, pondering issues that go to the very core of man's relationship with God.

As you pointed out, in the days of Israel the people wanted a man-king to rule over them when the Lord God made it

pointedly clear that He would be their KING. Yet, the nature of man slides back into captivity.

Same with modern Christianity.....where, after Pentecost, God provided ONE mediator between man and Himself...the lord

Jesus Christ. Yet, just seems like the nature of man keeps looking for a "pastor/church/cult mediator" as his summit

point of allegiance and worship. Time and time again, I get invited to other churches because his/her minister is just

so awesome (???)........same old, same old.

This subject has always intrigued me......because my paternal grandparents had "church in the home" starting in mid-1920s.

An itinerant preacher would be invited to attend their home about every 6 weeks as he traveled about in two counties in

rural America. Yet, a majority of the time....with several families in attendance, the men shared the responsibility of

leading in prayer, singing, worship, etc. If one family had special urgent needs, everyone pitched in to help. If a barn

needed built, or wheat needed harvesting.....families helped other families. Women and others were always near by with food

preparation and meals.....or canning, sewing, children, bruises, babies, etc. There was NO "awesome pastor" standing week

after week at his pulpit......and NO religious hierarchy to speak of. What a concept.

With my grandparents example.......twi's home fellowships were NOT a novel concept, or "just done in the 1st century church era."

I always used to chuckle when wierwille boasted "his" renewal concept of church in the home. hahahaha

[Kevin Fallon]

With my grandparents example.......twi's home fellowships were NOT a novel concept, or "just done in the 1st century church era."

I always used to chuckle when wierwille boasted "his" renewal concept of church in the home. hahahaha

Thank you, Skyrider!

[chockfull]

This subject has always intrigued me......because my paternal grandparents had "church in the home" starting in mid-1920s.

An itinerant preacher would be invited to attend their home about every 6 weeks as he traveled about in two counties in

rural America. Yet, a majority of the time....with several families in attendance, the men shared the responsibility of

leading in prayer, singing, worship, etc. If one family had special urgent needs, everyone pitched in to help. If a barn

needed built, or wheat needed harvesting.....families helped other families. Women and others were always near by with food

preparation and meals.....or canning, sewing, children, bruises, babies, etc. There was NO "awesome pastor" standing week

after week at his pulpit......and NO religious hierarchy to speak of. What a concept.

With my grandparents example.......twi's home fellowships were NOT a novel concept, or "just done in the 1st century church era."

I always used to chuckle when wierwille boasted "his" renewal concept of church in the home. hahahaha

I think this concept is more aligned with Jesus teachings than the mega-churches building edifices to men. Jesus came to bring salvation to the common man, the sinner. Not to provide a career path for those adept at swaying others.