Treated like children

[skyrider]

The condescending teachings in twi treated us, for decades, like children. Some say.....its still that way.

Maybe, condescension and repetition are staples in twi's arsenal of control.....but, for me, it sure was annoying. I understand that some approach teaching as an endeavor to reach "the slowest person in the room." Sure, foundational stuff to new students.....keep it simple. I get that.

But.....singing children's songs in the corps program? Sheeesh. I cringed every time John Lynn or some other corps coordinator led these childish songs after the noon meal. For me, the worst song was "Father Abraham." And, years later, on staff at hq......Walter Cvmmins liked to lead the song "My hat it has three corners" with hand motions, of course. Uuuuuuugh.

Is this condescension an aspect of biblical instruction? Milk or meat? Be as children? Etc..

Or, does twi pervert the truths of scripture via elitism, arrogance, and parsing of words and context?

And with the former schoolteacher, Rosalie, in charge of twi......is there a double dose of condescension?

Are 55 year-old adults on staff still treated like children and scolded for misbehavior?

Is talking-down or dumbing-down the people a systematic process of control?

.

Edited August 22, 2012 by skyrider

[waysider]

Singing kids' songs as a group:

It's a type of indoctrination. Specifically, it serves to de-emphasize the sense of individuality and reinforce the sense of group. That's why it was frowned upon when people would ad lib motions or words (ie: express individuality).

................in my opinion

edit:

The "call and response" we so frequently did is also an indoctrination reinforcement tool.

Q."Having done all, we do WHAT, class?"

A."STAND!"

Edited August 22, 2012 by waysider

[OldSkool]

And with the former schoolteacher, Rosalie, in charge of twi......is there a double dose of condescension?

Are 55 year-old adults on staff still treated like children and scolded for misbehavior?

Is talking-down or dumbing-down the people a systematic process of control?

Yes and yes. Once a week in the dining room, usually on Wednesday, T3d Ph1ll1p$ would come lead several corny songs. Rosalie got that ball going again many years ago after she usurped power. I would usually sit there and not sing and finish my food.

The FNC and INT classes are extremely elementary, both in content and presentation. Personally, I find Rosalie's style of presentations dumbed down and insulting.

[TrustAndObey]

I find the kindergarten like atmosphere of Christianity around the globe nothing more the by product of so called "leaders" that have no clue what they are doing.. And the only thing they are capable of "leading" is just that, a kindergarten class, no skills required..

The worst part about it, the "students" think they are in a prestigious school, earning their doctorate degree in Theology..

What a disconnect!

Welcome too school little kiddies and open up your song book to page 14 while we sing...

The class may now sit and listen to teacher so and so teach the same boring blue book beginner hog mush as usual..

And soon, class is dismissed, and the kids are off to the playground..

err. I mean the adults are back to reality..

And to top it off, many people put on their best dress so they can be humiliated and treated like kids..

I guess I shouldn't continue.. I once wrote a long diatribe on this very subject, I've since repented.. Not.

[Twinky]

Not just children ... little children. Surprised they didn't give us coloring books and craft scissors with rounded ends to cut out pretty pictures with.

Any teacher aims to bring out the best in his/her students, whatever their age. Stretch the learners, encourage them to think for themselves.

TWI on the other hand damped down whatever thinking ability we had and sought not to develop talents and abilities, nor even to focus them in TWI's own preferred direction - but rather, to squash them altogether. In my time in rez I saw so many talented, caring, big-hearted people oppressed and wasted in truly menial roles until all joy in serving had been eradicated. Then, they were let loose on the field.

No, Sky, don't think I agree with you. I think we were treated worse than children.

[OldSkool]

TWI on the other hand damped down whatever thinking ability we had and sought not to develop talents and abilities, nor even to focus them in TWI's own preferred direction - but rather, to squash them altogether. In my time in rez I saw so many talented, caring, big-hearted people oppressed and wasted in truly menial roles until all joy in serving had been eradicated. Then, they were let loose on the field.

No, Sky, don't think I agree with you. I think we were treated worse than children.

I saw, and experienced the same things both in-residence and especially being on staff. People would come in with degrees, professions, high level talents and abilities only to be assigned to housekeeping, grounds, or food services.

[WordWolf]

I find the kindergarten like atmosphere of Christianity around the globe nothing more the by product of so called "leaders" that have no clue what they are doing.. And the only thing they are capable of "leading" is just that, a kindergarten class, no skills required..

The worst part about it, the "students" think they are in a prestigious school, earning their doctorate degree in Theology..

What a disconnect!

Welcome too school little kiddies and open up your song book to page 14 while we sing...

The class may now sit and listen to teacher so and so teach the same boring blue book beginner hog mush as usual..

And soon, class is dismissed, and the kids are off to the playground..

err. I mean the adults are back to reality..

And to top it off, many people put on their best dress so they can be humiliated and treated like kids..

I guess I shouldn't continue.. I once wrote a long diatribe on this very subject, I've since repented.. Not.

Don't measure ALL of Christianity by twi/ex-twi.

I've seen better than that in denominations since twi.

That includes the Roman Catholic Church- and I do NOT particularly LIKE the Roman Catholic Church.

(So I have little reason to laud them to the sky.) Credit where credit is due.

[Steve Lortz]

The denomination that founded the school where I am working on my masters originated as a protest against denominationalism in the 1880s. And yes, they are aware of the paradox that they have become a denomination. One of their original tenets has remained intact, and that is that man-made credos are divisive. Because of this, people are not expected to all believe the exact same thing.

It seems to me that there are levels of approach that are age appropriate. Some of the congregations are pretty much "give me that old time religion" while others are open to looser approaches. The official church position is against speaking in tongues, but some congregations do it anyway. Music is more important than preaching. The church's doctrine is passed on through the songs, which are not childish.

Some of my profs may feel a little restrained in how far they can officially push the envelop, but they teach some pretty daring doctrine with a wink-wink, nudge-nudge! Some of the pedagogy is cutting edge.

It's a far, far way from the Way, thank God!

Love,

Steve

[Twinky]

Cutting edge pedagogy ... now that sounds ... interesting.

(Steve, I do enjoy your informative and interesting posts.)

[Ham]

Don't measure ALL of Christianity by twi/ex-twi.

I've seen better than that in denominations since twi.

That includes the Roman Catholic Church- and I do NOT particularly LIKE the Roman Catholic Church.

(So I have little reason to laud them to the sky.) Credit where credit is due.

I dunno.

Then again.. I've seen different "sects" of the Roman religion..

depends on where you are, the community..

just what I've observed.. there are some churches that provide a traditional, static religion for the aged population.

Then there are some churches which have a LOT of young children, and growth..

then there are mixtures, somewhat between the two.

I do not belong to a Roman church.

but when I visited with close relatives in Grand Rapids..

I don't remember the name of the church.. but they had a mixed service.. a puppet show, something appropriate for the children, but may I add meaningful.

and then a conservative, traditional service and communion for the aging population..

I don't know about anyone else, but the sound of children is a blessing. And I think that thought was shared in that particular church..

[waysider]

I don't know about anyone else, but the sound of children is a blessing.

My mom called it "happy noise".

[Ham]

:)

that's what I call it..

those were the happiest times of life for me.. young children in the house..

[excathedra]

it sure was annoying. I understand that some approach teaching as an endeavor to reach "the slowest person in the room

were there many way followers with down syndrome? i know i sound horribly mean(because i am), but my brother-in-law has down syndrome

am i spelling that right? i hope so.

anyway, aside from all that, i don't give a flying ambassador one about these jerks

:P

[newlife]

I might be the only one....but I actually loved singing those songs in a group. We sang "The Lord knows the Way through the wilderness" a lot on my wow year. For me, it released a lot of tension...and found myself with others always laughing...Maybe I'm just a kid at heart. but I always liked it.

[OldSkool]

I might be the only one....but I actually loved singing those songs in a group. We sang "The Lord knows the Way through the wilderness" a lot on my wow year. For me, it released a lot of tension...and found myself with others always laughing...Maybe I'm just a kid at heart. but I always liked it.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the songs we sang in and of themselves, though I always felt corny being a part of it. From my perspective, it was the whole lifestyle of being treated like a kid, of which the songs were a part. Separate the songs from the whole TWI experience and I have no qualms.

[chockfull]

I liked the "roll away" song. It always helped my mind transcend being treated like a child, despite the intent of all the butt nuggets leading the songs.

[waysider]

Kids songs are fine......for kids.

[hiway29]

Before I even took the class, and should have run when the running was easy, I brought a college friend to twig. The leader started us off with 'Heads, Shoulders, Knees , and Toes'. Of course my friend said WTF ? I was embarrassed, and wondered how this leader couldn't even realize that might not be the best way to interest grown men in this thing. As time went on, I became all too aware how some wayfers had a real disconnect with reality.

[outandabout]

One time in the Corps, we were singing "Roll Away" and a couple of 6th Corps guys actually got on the floor and rolled away.

[Twinky]

Oh funny, Outandabout.

But no doubt their behavior got them a reprimand.

It certainly would have done when I was in rez!

I wonder, if any of the head honchos are reading this (hello, Mr Linder!) if they have any idea how infantile and yes, degrading, some of the things they compelled us to do actually are? Sure we need to leave false pretenses and pomposity behind, act a bit silly sometime, but adopting other false pretenses - that we're just kids - is just that, pretense.

Can you imagine Rosie having a (nice little) twig in her house and leading adults into songs like those mentioned here, with appropriate actions? Like "Going on a Bear Hunt"? "If You're Happy [blessed] and You Know it, Clap your Hands"? Etc? Mmmmmm.....

[outandabout]

And then there's "Little Bunny Foo Foo."

[johniam]

quote:

Can you imagine Rosie having a (nice little) twig in her house and leading adults into songs like those mentioned here, with appropriate actions? Like "Going on a Bear Hunt"? "If You're Happy [blessed] and You Know it, Clap your Hands"? Etc? Mmmmmm.....

In her case it would be....if you're ugly and you know it, hit your face.

[Steve Lortz]

A couple of decades after leaving TWI, I was teaching humane letters to 7th graders at a small private school that had been founded by a bunch of home schoolers pooling their resources. The school followed the classical model of pedagogy.

We had some class routines. When the instructor entered the room at the beginning of class, the students were each to be standing behind her or his chair, and were to greet the instructor by saying "Good morning ( or afternoon), Mrs. (or Mr.) So-and-so. The instructor would say "Good morning (or afternoon), students. Please be seated." The students would sit, and then the instructor would sit.

I wasn't happy with the lack of enthusiasm the students often displayed, so when I came into the room, I had them exclaim "Good morning, Mr. Lortz, SIR!" I told them they had to convince me that they meant it. If they weren't enthusiastic enough to suit me, I'd turn around, walk out and walk back in, until they DID convince me that they meant it. I learned that in Navy boot camp. We turned it into a game and had a lot of fun with it.

But I felt that there were times when I needed something similar at the end of the period, to get their blood stirring and transition from my spell-binding lecture style. I taught them Roll Away. I'd make 'em stand and sing it, complete with motions, and time it so that when it ended, I could wave my thumb toward the door, and say, "GET OUTTA HERE!" I didn't do it all the time. Just when I felt it would help perk them up. Usually in the afternoon, when they were digesting lunch. Sometimes, I'd make one of the students lead the song. We had fun, and the sixth-graders, who I didn't normally teach, invited me come to their class and teach Roll Away to them.

On another note, a girl came into our school because the student high school culture, even at the evangelical protestant high school, was making her physically sick. We did a lot of things to teach our students to respect each other, and the new girl loosened up. One day, during break, she was spontaneously singing Little Bunny FooFoo and hopping around the room, having fun with everybody else. The next day when I saw her mom, her mom told me "You worked a miracle!"

Love,

Steve

Edited August 24, 2012 by Steve Lortz

[Steve Lortz]

In a more serious vein, one of the things the Lord taught me when I first got serious with Him, years before I ever heard of TWI, was that freedom and responsibility are the same thing. They are the head and the tail of a single coin.

Wierwille taught us that we weren't mature enough to handle spiritual responsibility. In turning our responsibility over to him, we were also turning over our freedom.

Leaders at all levels of the Way tree were subtly taught to infantilize our followers in subtle ways, even as we were being infantilized from above.

The key to taking back our freedom was to take back our responsibility for ourselves. If, dear reader, you are still involved with TWI, think about that.

Love,

Steve

Edited August 24, 2012 by Steve Lortz

[DogLover]

quote:

Can you imagine Rosie having a (nice little) twig in her house and leading adults into songs like those mentioned here, with appropriate actions? Like "Going on a Bear Hunt"? "If You're Happy [blessed] and You Know it, Clap your Hands"? Etc? Mmmmmm.....

In her case it would be....if you're ugly and you know it, hit your face.

It is 2:15 am as I sit here in front of my computer thinking about RFR leading, "If you're ugly and you know it, hit your face." A mind picture is worth a thousand words!

Edited for spelling...it is, after all, 2:15 am

Edited August 25, 2012 by DogLover