I've heard that crap before. Of course if you're waybrained then the cells crapping out are a result of your believing petering out. Life is spiritual.
I've heard that crap before. Of course if you're waybrained then the cells crapping out are a result of your believing petering out. Life is spiritual.
It's a progressive, irreversible process that starts at conception. Therefore, you would have to be operating the so-called "law of believing", even at the moment you were conceived, to prevent the inevitable..
I don't know if the doctrine was explicitly stated anywhere, but it was certainly an obvious implication of what was taught in the foundational class, where Wierwille said if a person predicted the day that person would die, then Wierwille would put his money on that person dying that day.
Again, I don't remember if it was explicitly taught somewhere, but when people would ask why the Apostle Paul died, the answer was "because he got tired of believing".
That was also said about Wierwille when he was killed by cancer.
A great quote I learned in biology class: A living cell is a temporary repository of order purchased at the cost of a constant flow of energy.
Biblically, aren't we partakers of eternal life? (= live forever). Don't think that that ever referred to the physical bodies that we now inhabit.
Well, unless you are Rosie, of course, looks like her believing is right up there, protecting her physical body. Just think how gorgeous she will look, in another 50 years.
Human life seems to gravitate to routine. Been there, done that. How many times can one be there and do that before just...losing interest? Phyllis Diller and Ernest Borgnine died this year in their 90s. Both George Burns and Bob Hope seemed to check out very soon after turning three figures; like that was the only reason they stayed alive; to hit that milestone. I heard a comic say recently that if we all have eternal life, then after a few thousand years everybody will still end up looking at their watches a lot.
IMO, one's outlook on life definitely has an impact on how long they live. If someone has spent years feeling trapped in life, not enjoying it much, they can become vulnerable to physical diseases. I bet a lot of suicides are borne of feeling like a temporary feeling is never going to get any better, so why not?
But the idea that you can live longer solely because of your "right believing" is just another form of self righteousness.
Human life seems to gravitate to routine. Been there, done that. How many times can one be there and do that before just...losing interest? Phyllis Diller and Ernest Borgnine died this year in their 90s. Both George Burns and Bob Hope seemed to check out very soon after turning three figures; like that was the only reason they stayed alive; to hit that milestone. I heard a comic say recently that if we all have eternal life, then after a few thousand years everybody will still end up looking at their watches a lot.
IMO, one's outlook on life definitely has an impact on how long they live. If someone has spent years feeling trapped in life, not enjoying it much, they can become vulnerable to physical diseases. I bet a lot of suicides are borne of feeling like a temporary feeling is never going to get any better, so why not?
But the idea that you can live longer solely because of your "right believing" is just another form of self righteousness.
I concur. I'm only 63, and movies just don't thrill me the way they used to. I enjoyed "Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull" the same way I enjoy reunion shows of comfortable old TV series, but the charge was gone. I enjoyed "Prometheus" the same way I enjoy "Beowulf". The poem, NOT the movie. THAT was excrement!
Gulliver traveled to the land of Luggnagg where he met the Struldbrugs, a people who never died. They didn't stay young though. They lost all their facilities at a normal rate, and after they turned eighty, they were leagally considered dead!
Unless the gathering together happens first, I believe I'm going to die someday. Furthermore, I believe you are going to die someday. So, if you die, did my believing kill you? And if it did, shouldn't I be arrested for murder? Come to think,... if I die, then my death should be labeled a suicide because I killed myself using my own believing.
You know, being a leader in TWI was the easiest job in the world because WE WERE IDIOTS.
You know, being a leader in TWI was the easiest job in the world because WE WERE IDIOTS.
Yep. Being a leader in TWI means taking orders to the letter and reporting back in great detail. When orders aren't readily available then enforce policy, follow the plan, parrot cliches, and make sure the plebes are in line. I wasn't cut out for that and had the brochure stated as much I would have ran away. Anyway, I digress.
The idea that one could believe to live forever is the logical conclusion of their law of believing doctrine.
To cover for or explain why bad things happened to good people, TWI would always take it back to the believing of the individual. For instance: the record of Stephen getting stoned to death in Acts. The majority of the times that I heard that record taught in TWI it was stated that the reason Stephen died was because he "quit believing". Never mind that in the chapter preceeding this record it is noted twice that Stephen was "full of faith" and of the Holy Spirit and power. I also heard them teach that Paul eventually died because he quit believing and "got tired of the fight". This was a common thing they would teach, that people died when they got tired of the fight. So logically, if one could never get tired of the fight and never quit believing, they'd live forever.
I remember when Wierwille died people repeatedly said he "got tired of the fight" and turned his face to the wall and quit believing. Bullsheet. His magic of believing failed him.
For someone to die at a seemingly early age flew in the face of TWI's law of believing doctrine. So they said Stephen "quit believing". What? Chapter and verse please.
I remember when Wierwille died people repeatedly said he "got tired of the fight" and turned his face to the wall and quit believing. Bullsheet. His magic of believing failed him.
For someone to die at a seemingly early age flew in the face of TWI's law of believing doctrine. So they said Stephen "quit believing". What? Chapter and verse please.
VP Wierwille died......age 68
Ermal Owens died.......age 69
Harry Wierwille died....age 70
Gee, what the heck was wrong with "their believing"...???
Three of my four grandparents LIVED INTO THEIR 90s.
Even if they didn't explicitly teach that you could use believing to live "forever", they certainly expected us to conclude you could extend your life, appreciably, by believing. As Sky pointed out, that's one of the things that presents a huge dilemma when considering the demise of these men who were supposedly pillars of The Way, whose "believing examples" we were supposed to follow..
And Bob Hope and George Burns lived to be 100! Mrs Hope lived to be 102. And they never took PFAL---gosh almighty!
PIFFLE cuts the life expectency by 20 yrs? Or maybe it's the other ignored natural laws, like boozing it up and smoking like a chimney? Except for George Burns probably had a cigar and a scotch on his 100th b-day.
The human body has an expiration date of 120 years. This raises a whole new set of questions about how time was measured during Biblical times. What did they consider a year? Methuselah, it's written, was something like 900+ years old when he died. That's not physically possible, so, either they measured time differently or there's some kind of symbolism represented ....or something else.
The human body has an expiration date of 120 years. This raises a whole new set of questions about how time was measured during Biblical times. What did they consider a year? Methuselah, it's written, was something like 900+ years old when he died. That's not physically possible, so, either they measured time differently or there's some kind of symbolism represented ....or something else.
TWI said it was because mankind was relatively new to the earth and their blood hadn't been poisoned by toxins and evil. When I heard that, I thought, "how do you know that?" maybe that should have been an ITALICIZED number in KJV!
I do believe that in his created state man did possess perfection. But, after the fall he would take on a gradual state of deterioration which meant that it would take a millennium to get to the 120 year life span. So, down through the ages, Moses, Noah, Methuselah lived 600 + years.
As far as how biblical people measuring time then, it raises a good question? Maybe they had a decade that they leaped instead of day.
I do believe that in his created state man did possess perfection. But, after the fall he would take on a gradual state of deterioration which meant that it would take a millennium to get to the 120 year life span. So, down through the ages, Moses, Noah, Methuselah lived 600 + years.
As far as how biblical people measuring time then, it raises a good question? Maybe they had a decade that they leaped instead of day.
If one entertains the possibility,
then another consideration would be problems with limited genes.
The problems would either crop up immediately (unless "perfect" genes in the first generation
forestalled that) or later, whenever the gene pool shrank.
As it turns out, the death ages begin plummeting just after The Great Flood. That's when the
gene pool really shrinks. I'm certain the people who set ink to paper in the original didn't
have a modern understanding of genetics. That means-if it isn't somehow an accurate account-
The Hayflick Limit has nothing to do with contaminated gene pools, dominant/recessive traits, evil behavior or any such thing. It's simply the result of an inherent characteristic of human DNA. Cells have a finite number of times they can reproduce. When they reach that limit, they die. Think of it as being like a battery that has a predetermined number of recharges assigned to it. THIS article, though rather basic, offers some insight into the process.
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OldSkool
I've heard that crap before. Of course if you're waybrained then the cells crapping out are a result of your believing petering out. Life is spiritual.
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Ham
Live forever.. hmm.
Maybe we do anyway..
I'm not sure I want to be reincarnated in what can be described as what some are turning this place into a s*ithole..
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waysider
It's a progressive, irreversible process that starts at conception. Therefore, you would have to be operating the so-called "law of believing", even at the moment you were conceived, to prevent the inevitable..
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Steve Lortz
I don't know if the doctrine was explicitly stated anywhere, but it was certainly an obvious implication of what was taught in the foundational class, where Wierwille said if a person predicted the day that person would die, then Wierwille would put his money on that person dying that day.
Again, I don't remember if it was explicitly taught somewhere, but when people would ask why the Apostle Paul died, the answer was "because he got tired of believing".
That was also said about Wierwille when he was killed by cancer.
A great quote I learned in biology class: A living cell is a temporary repository of order purchased at the cost of a constant flow of energy.
That definition works at so many levels...
Love,
Steve
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Twinky
Biblically, aren't we partakers of eternal life? (= live forever). Don't think that that ever referred to the physical bodies that we now inhabit.
Well, unless you are Rosie, of course, looks like her believing is right up there, protecting her physical body. Just think how gorgeous she will look, in another 50 years.
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OldSkool
Oh, silly waysider.
Children are covered by their parent's believing. 
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johniam
Who would WANT to live forever in this life?
Human life seems to gravitate to routine. Been there, done that. How many times can one be there and do that before just...losing interest? Phyllis Diller and Ernest Borgnine died this year in their 90s. Both George Burns and Bob Hope seemed to check out very soon after turning three figures; like that was the only reason they stayed alive; to hit that milestone. I heard a comic say recently that if we all have eternal life, then after a few thousand years everybody will still end up looking at their watches a lot.
IMO, one's outlook on life definitely has an impact on how long they live. If someone has spent years feeling trapped in life, not enjoying it much, they can become vulnerable to physical diseases. I bet a lot of suicides are borne of feeling like a temporary feeling is never going to get any better, so why not?
But the idea that you can live longer solely because of your "right believing" is just another form of self righteousness.
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waysider
Well said.
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Steve Lortz
I concur. I'm only 63, and movies just don't thrill me the way they used to. I enjoyed "Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull" the same way I enjoy reunion shows of comfortable old TV series, but the charge was gone. I enjoyed "Prometheus" the same way I enjoy "Beowulf". The poem, NOT the movie. THAT was excrement!
Gulliver traveled to the land of Luggnagg where he met the Struldbrugs, a people who never died. They didn't stay young though. They lost all their facilities at a normal rate, and after they turned eighty, they were leagally considered dead!
Love,
Steve
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OperaBuff
Unless the gathering together happens first, I believe I'm going to die someday. Furthermore, I believe you are going to die someday. So, if you die, did my believing kill you? And if it did, shouldn't I be arrested for murder? Come to think,... if I die, then my death should be labeled a suicide because I killed myself using my own believing.
You know, being a leader in TWI was the easiest job in the world because WE WERE IDIOTS.
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OldSkool
Yep. Being a leader in TWI means taking orders to the letter and reporting back in great detail. When orders aren't readily available then enforce policy, follow the plan, parrot cliches, and make sure the plebes are in line. I wasn't cut out for that and had the brochure stated as much I would have ran away. Anyway, I digress.
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PatAnswer
The idea that one could believe to live forever is the logical conclusion of their law of believing doctrine.
To cover for or explain why bad things happened to good people, TWI would always take it back to the believing of the individual. For instance: the record of Stephen getting stoned to death in Acts. The majority of the times that I heard that record taught in TWI it was stated that the reason Stephen died was because he "quit believing". Never mind that in the chapter preceeding this record it is noted twice that Stephen was "full of faith" and of the Holy Spirit and power. I also heard them teach that Paul eventually died because he quit believing and "got tired of the fight". This was a common thing they would teach, that people died when they got tired of the fight. So logically, if one could never get tired of the fight and never quit believing, they'd live forever.
I remember when Wierwille died people repeatedly said he "got tired of the fight" and turned his face to the wall and quit believing. Bullsheet. His magic of believing failed him.
For someone to die at a seemingly early age flew in the face of TWI's law of believing doctrine. So they said Stephen "quit believing". What? Chapter and verse please.
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skyrider
VP Wierwille died......age 68
Ermal Owens died.......age 69
Harry Wierwille died....age 70
Gee, what the heck was wrong with "their believing"...???
Three of my four grandparents LIVED INTO THEIR 90s.
<_<
.
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Rejoice
And Bob Hope and George Burns lived to be 100! Mrs Hope lived to be 102. And they never took PFAL---gosh almighty!
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waysider
Even if they didn't explicitly teach that you could use believing to live "forever", they certainly expected us to conclude you could extend your life, appreciably, by believing. As Sky pointed out, that's one of the things that presents a huge dilemma when considering the demise of these men who were supposedly pillars of The Way, whose "believing examples" we were supposed to follow..
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chockfull
PIFFLE cuts the life expectency by 20 yrs? Or maybe it's the other ignored natural laws, like boozing it up and smoking like a chimney? Except for George Burns probably had a cigar and a scotch on his 100th b-day.
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waysider
How old was Don when he died of cancer? I'm just curious.
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skyrider
Don Wierwille dead at age 60 ----- (1940-2000)
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Twinky
You could be right about that.
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waysider
The human body has an expiration date of 120 years. This raises a whole new set of questions about how time was measured during Biblical times. What did they consider a year? Methuselah, it's written, was something like 900+ years old when he died. That's not physically possible, so, either they measured time differently or there's some kind of symbolism represented ....or something else.
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Rejoice
TWI said it was because mankind was relatively new to the earth and their blood hadn't been poisoned by toxins and evil. When I heard that, I thought, "how do you know that?" maybe that should have been an ITALICIZED number in KJV!
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Human without the bean
I do believe that in his created state man did possess perfection. But, after the fall he would take on a gradual state of deterioration which meant that it would take a millennium to get to the 120 year life span. So, down through the ages, Moses, Noah, Methuselah lived 600 + years.
As far as how biblical people measuring time then, it raises a good question? Maybe they had a decade that they leaped instead of day.
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WordWolf
If one entertains the possibility,
then another consideration would be problems with limited genes.
The problems would either crop up immediately (unless "perfect" genes in the first generation
forestalled that) or later, whenever the gene pool shrank.
As it turns out, the death ages begin plummeting just after The Great Flood. That's when the
gene pool really shrinks. I'm certain the people who set ink to paper in the original didn't
have a modern understanding of genetics. That means-if it isn't somehow an accurate account-
it forms an interesting coincidence.
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waysider
The Hayflick Limit has nothing to do with contaminated gene pools, dominant/recessive traits, evil behavior or any such thing. It's simply the result of an inherent characteristic of human DNA. Cells have a finite number of times they can reproduce. When they reach that limit, they die. Think of it as being like a battery that has a predetermined number of recharges assigned to it. THIS article, though rather basic, offers some insight into the process.
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