Beware of false prophets

[skyrider]

First things first...

1) BEWARE of false prophets [Mat. 7:15]

2) BEWARE of the leaven of Pharisees, Herod [Mark 8:15]

Time and time again, many talk about "the good old days in twi" before things went awry. There is a whole faction of "believers" who think that wierwille was the one who help bestow those "spiritually good times." In other words, vpw's pfal-doctrine AND SUBSEQUENT TEACHINGS were the foundation on which one build his life and all "good" would flow from its adherence.

Although there is notable evidence that twi was trending downward and destructive by 1977/1978.....most were unaware until the cold splash of reality hit with wierwille's death, geer's power-grab and martindale's unprecedented loyalty letter. For some, martindale was the source of blame for twi's downfall and "no longer standing on the word".......for others, geer was instigating strife and division with his unsubstantiated poop paper.......and still others, followed the lynn crowd. And, some just left, following no one.

Even to this day, some posters defend wierwille.....dismissing the legalism of leavening thru the years.

"Leavening" is added to catalize a spreading, gradual change.....and, in twi, it did.

The elitism and arrogance increased. Hypocrisy increased. Centralized authority increased.

The gradual, destructive changes in twi usurped individual "Christ-in-you" authority.

Year after year, authoritarian rule and a collective mindset spread to leaven the lump.

Yeah.....one needs to BEWARE of religious (and political) leavening.

But, first things first......one needs to BEWARE OF FALSE PROPHETS.

[waysider]

.....Beware of P.T. Barnum impersonators and Harold Hill wannabe's.

[skyrider]

.....Beware of P.T. Barnum impersonators and Harold Hill wannabe's.

Yeah.....if I'd noticed the p.t. barnum bloviating first, I would have never been at the circus to begin with.

But hey......I got to see lots of animals and tricks. <_<

[OldSkool]

bloviating

Darn, I had to look that one up. Very appropriate definition.

Bloviation is a style of empty, pompous, political speech which originated in Ohio....

Is it just me or does this sound like someone we all know?

[skyrider]

Is it just me or does this sound like someone we all know?

Unfortunately......it's someone many of us knew, most notably the corps/staff.

Looking back, I see the branding of cult-organization as a CONDUIT OF INDOCTRINATION.

1) Targeting the youth and promoting energetic leaders to add "credibility and deception"

2) Immediate separation of friends and family from recruit

3) Expectations and anticipation built ahead of class in area

4) Regimented class schedule....no questions asked, no refunds, no turning back

5) What? Still have doubts? You NEED to sit thru pfal again, a soon as possible

6) Anyone counseled to "pray about it"....or "the holy spirit will lead you"?

7) Class series....hoops to jump....adv class awaits

8) Classes, programs, levels of spiritual maturity......and secrecy (really?)

9) HQ staff location = working at the epicenter where the man of God lives

10) Working on staff...and one observes more levels, more secrecy, an inner circle

11) Howard's and Don's office areas were always dimly lit.....and had a personal secretary

12) "Bless patrol," bodyguards, personal valets, security guards, trained dogs? What gives?

13) No community involvement, no newspapers, no one listened to the world news around them

14) Designated leadership update staff on news "filtered thru a spiritual lens"

15) Most all books, publications, teaching tapes, way mag are in-house propaganda

16) Threats and verbal attacks leveled at all who attempt to leave

17) Character assassinations were twi's m.o. on corps night

18) Trustees publicly lied about wierwille's cause of death

19) Wierwille's legacy lives.....in rewritten history

20) Man-made idolatry is one of twi's many sins

Could there possibly be ANYONE left who would be graduating corps this year?

[excathedra]

maybe someone who is being groomed and made to feel important ?

[skyrider]

maybe someone who is being groomed and made to feel important ?

Yeah.....but with today's job market fiasco, what staffers want to jump ship from twi's dismal

institutionalized existence and scramble for another job with a deadend resume'?

[Pete]

And, some just left, following no one.

Ahem. Just to put the record straight, I never left them .... it was they who left me!

[Pete]

Does anyone know what caused Peter J Wade to upsticks and leave?

I always wondered in the past, but I can sort of make a wild guess now and probably not be too far wrong.

Does anyone have any experience of his ministry?

[waysider]

He has an an account here. You could send him a P.M.

(I don't remember his handle.)

[OperaBuff]

Peter Wade was made a non-person, as were so many other children of God. He wouldn't play ball according to the Politburo VPW rule book.

[skyrider]

Peter Wade was made a non-person, as were so many other children of God. He wouldn't play ball according to the Politburo VPW rule book.

Yeah.....every time I sat thru the pfal class and heard about wierwille's "right-hand man" Peter J. W@de,

who wrote that little booklet You are Righteous Now.......I deemed him as someone I wanted to meet.

But by the time I got to twi's hq.....W@de was long gone.

Others some to mind who "wouldn't play ball according to wierwille's rule book"......men like Rev. L0nnel Johns0n,

Rev. R0ss Tr@cy, Rev. St3ve S@nn, and many others. Anyone who thinks that twi came crashing down because of Craig

Martindale, just hasn't connected all the dots yet.

<_<

[Twinky]

I think a significant problem now (at least for me) is that having listened to a false prophet and his trained false prophets for too long, I'm not entirely sure when I might be listening to a real prophet. One with a genuine, energized ministry. I tend to run whatever that person says through too many layers of filters.

Come to that, I have difficulty discerning a real apostle, evangelist, or teacher (real pastors I know about) (and they usually aren't church leadership) without a lot of personal contact.

[Freelancer]

Does anyone know what caused Peter J Wade to upsticks and leave?

I always wondered in the past, but I can sort of make a wild guess now and probably not be too far wrong.

Does anyone have any experience of his ministry?

http://www.peterwade.com/ is his website. I know he is a trinitarian, I don't think he could deal with Jesus Christ isn't God. I also remember hearing ads for his "Little Red Schoolhouse" church school on the alternative radio shows I listen to. (10 years ago, not lately , though). Maybe he recognized a vpig when he saw it,way sooner than any of us.

[Twinky]

Been pondering this a while.

And the question is:

HOW WILL YOU RECOGNIZE A FALSE PROPHET? A FALSE APOSTLE?

Yes, I know that scripture says that if what the prophet prophesies doesn't come to pass, you shall not be afraid of that prophet:

17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die .

21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass , that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken , but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

And yet, some prophecies were were never fulfilled in the lifetime of that generation...though they were, perhaps, centuries later.

There were false prophets from the beginning (obviously; Deuteronomy is an early book); and there are warnings throughout the whole Bible.

Look at 2 Cor 11 and 12, for example:

3 But I fear , lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached , or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received , or another gospel, which ye have not accepted , ye might well bear with him. 5 For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.

6 But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things. 7 Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted , because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely? 8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service. 9 And when I was present with you, and wanted , I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied : and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself. 10 As the truth of Christ is in me , no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia. 11 Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth . 12 But what I do , that I will do , that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory , they may be found even as we.

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. ...

2 Cor 12:

17 Did I make a gain of you by any of them whom I sent unto you? 18 I desired Titus, and with him I sent a brother. Did Titus make a gain of you? walked we not in the same spirit? walked we not in the same steps? 19 Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ: but we do all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying.

Is it whether they ask for money? Financial support? Contributions to their mission in (name a country/city)? Yet many genuine workers for God are supported by churches and congregations, couldn't survive otherwise.

Also, it's not that they're 100% accurate... (are they Trinitarians? Non-Trinitarians? I've heard both types speak wonderful words concerning God - and not so wonderful words, from both types.

In light of how many televangelists, cranks and snake oil salesmen proclaim they have the word of God - how does one know? Some sound good, Biblical. We were all fooled once - otherwise we'd not have fallen into the false ministry that is TWI. So having been fooled once, how do we know we aren't being fooled again when we go to church, tune into the God channel, whatever.

How do you know that you know that you know?

[Ham]

How do you know that you know..

I dunno. Looking to another to hear the voice of god..

maybe that's the whole problem..

If the Creator doesn't have anything worthwhile at the moment to tell somebody.. what is the difference if others guess, mutter and stammer nonsense..

and often the message is muddied with religious hogwash..

[waysider]

Chronology

And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass , that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken , but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

..................................................

I don't know Greek or any of that sort of thing but, it appears to me, this is speaking in a present tense, here and now sort of vain, not in a futuristic manner. I mean, how are you going to be afraid (or not) of something that's centuries away? This is why I find it pointless to rationalize what I see as contradictions. When I was 8 years old, my father told me not to climb the big tree in the schoolyard because I could fall and get hurt. I climbed it anyway, fell and broke my arm. I think he meant to not climb it then, when I was 8 years old, not 20 or 30 years later.

After I got the cast off, I went and did something else stupid that he had warned me about and broke the other arm.

Maybe I got a double dose of prophesy.

Edited August 8, 2012 by waysider

[socks]

Those are good questions, Twinky and ways'. Deut 18:

I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.

If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account.

But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?"

If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

etc.

The Deut reference seems to be speaking about a specific kind of thing - that if the guy makes the call that something is going to happen - and it doesn't, then it wasn't from God. It's less of a general instruction and more specific - if something's going to occur and the guy calls it, it will - if God has revealed that thing to the prophet and told him to reveal it to others.

This is underscored in a lot of the "thought" in the Bible I think. "Know them by their fruit", would be similar - the results speak for themselves - it's not exactly the same scenario but how a person can validate their perception is where there's a proof based in a reality.

A lot of the Bible isn't really specific and wouldn't tell a person to make specific decisions - people may pray about what car to buy. God doesn't appear to be in the car business, that's man's business. God cares about people, and I can draw an assumption that in the big wide world of probabilities there's a right thing and a wrong thing to do with that - but "God's Word" doesn't speak to that decision. Be honest, be efficient, be fair, those sorts of things but there's no "buy the blue one" in the Bible.

I see the Deut reference as a very specific kind of instruction, an if/then statement - if the guy says it's going to snow blue Cheerios tomorrow morning, and if that's from God, then get your bowls out, it will. If it doesn't, it wasn't. If the grits don't fit, you can't acquit. Or something to that effect.

The future is just so....like all so tomorrow and stuff.

[excathedra]

hey socks

God cares about people, and I can draw an assumption that in the big wide world of probabilities there's a right thing and a wrong thing to do with that

this is simple enough for me to get

[chockfull]

Jesus teachings of knowing people by their fruit the same as you know an apple tree by the apple fruit is how you know.

TWI's members are poor and enslaved, they all bite and devour one another, and they unquestionably follow leaders who are micromanagers and extremely controlling. There are sex scandals, alchohol abuse, domestic mistreatment, affairs, people causing suicides, plenty of slander and libel, and this just scratches the surface. Where's the place in the ministry with the highest incidents of teenage alchoholism and abuse? Right there at HQ.

When you see that kind of fruit, there lies a false apostle or a false prophet.

[excathedra]

let's pretend there isn't even a bible

when you meet an old sleezie ball who wants to help (himself) to you, RUN!!!

[chockfull]

let's pretend there isn't even a bible

when you meet an old sleezie ball who wants to help (himself) to you, RUN!!!

WOW - that sounds like some of what we learned as that "good ole common horse sense".

The kind that VP's brother Harry used to talk about, when he wasn't feeling up young hotties. God what came out of these guys mouths and what their actions said couldn't be any more opposite.

[Twinky]

Would you believe it!

John Lynn, in his Living Truth newsletter, Aug 2012, said this:

Jesus also had plenty to say about "hypocrites," i.e., counterfeit spiritual leaders who say one thing and do another, who "draw near with their mouths but whose hearts are far from God." In Matthew 23:13–29, he "went wild" about such frauds, giving us some characteristics to look for:

• They appear very religious but neglect justice, mercy, and faithfulness.
• They are greedy and self-indulgent.
• They look beautiful on the outside but are putrid within.
• They persecute true spiritual leaders, often motivated by envy.

(Living truth "counterfeit" article)

What a great answer to my post #15 of a few days ago.

Edited August 15, 2012 by Twinky

[Steve Lortz]

Here is an excerpt from the Didache, a rule of faith that was very probably composed BEFORE some of the material that made it into the New Testament:

"Chapter 11. Concerning Teachers, Apostles, and Prophets. Whosoever, therefore, comes and teaches you all these things that have been said before, receive him. But if the teacher himself turns and teaches another doctrine to the destruction of this, hear him not. But if he teaches so as to increase righteousness and the knowledge of the Lord, receive him as the Lord. But concerning the apostles and prophets, act according to the decree of the Gospel. Let every apostle who comes to you be received as the Lord. But he shall not remain more than one day; or two days, if there's a need. But if he remains three days, he is a false prophet. And when the apostle goes away, let him take nothing but bread until he lodges. If he asks for money, he is a false prophet. And every prophet who speaks in the Spirit you shall neither try nor judge; for every sin shall be forgiven, but this sin shall not be forgiven. But not every one who speaks in the Spirit is a prophet; but only if he holds the ways of the Lord. Therefore from their ways shall the false prophet and the prophet be known. And every prophet who orders a meal in the Spirit does not eat it, unless he is indeed a false prophet. And every prophet who teaches the truth, but does not do what he teaches, is a false prophet. And every prophet, proved true, working unto the mystery of the Church in the world, yet not teaching others to do what he himself does, shall not be judged among you, for with God he has his judgment; for so did also the ancient prophets. But whoever says in the Spirit, Give me money, or something else, you shall not listen to him. But if he tells you to give for others' sake who are in need, let no one judge him."

Love,

Steve

[Steve Lortz]

Would you believe it!

John Lynn, in his Living Truth newsletter, Aug 2012, said this:

Jesus also had plenty to say about "hypocrites," i.e., counterfeit spiritual leaders who say one thing and do another, who "draw near with their mouths but whose hearts are far from God." In Matthew 23:13–29, he "went wild" about such frauds, giving us some characteristics to look for:

They appear very religious but neglect justice, mercy, and faithfulness.

They are greedy and self-indulgent.

They look beautiful on the outside but are putrid within.

They persecute true spiritual leaders, often motivated by envy.

(Living truth "counterfeit" article)

What a great answer to my post #15 of a few days ago.

The only problem with Lynn's use of the description of hypocritical counterfeit leaders is that it's a perfect description of the leaders of CES, especially during the Momentus kerfluffle and the implosion of STFI.

Love,

Steve

Edited August 15, 2012 by Steve Lortz