More "Hidden Truths"

[Twinky]

Not entirely sure which forum this ought to be in so if Mods want to move it, that’s fine by me.

We’ve all heard of Martin Luther and his valiant stand against the corrupt Catholic church, and the 95 theses that he nailed to the church door, and how he didn’t want to found any new religion, just wanted people to understand the Bible properly, haven’t we? Yep, didn't we all watch that poor-quality video about the life of Luther? If you were in rez, you saw it – maybe several times. (Didn't Luther make an appearance (I mean, wasn't he referred to) in PFAL? I really can't remember, don't care either.)

Oh, how the bold VPW who only wanted to share the real truth of the gospel /sarc/ compared himself to that great man who stood firmly for God and against the corrupt church.

Now I just today found out something else about Luther. Something that VPW never told us, nor was it pointed out in that film. But it does fit with something else that VPW and his coterie promoted.

Martin Luther (1483–1546), a German Reformation leader, had a significant influence on German antisemitism by his harsh anti-Jewish statements and writings.

Luther's attitude toward the Jews changed over the course of his life. In the early phase of his career—until around 1536—he expressed concern for their plight in Europe and was enthusiastic at the prospect of converting them to Christianity through his evangelical reforms. In his later career, Luther denounced the Jewish people and urged for their harsh persecution. In a paragraph from his On the Jews and Their Lies he deplores Christendom's failure to expel them

Extracted from Wikipedia

The Jewish Virtual Library (a division of The American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise) (whatever that might be) has the kindness to put his views in context for the period, but quotes some pretty nasty stuff: (Oh I wish you could read it in the original!)

Jewish Virtual Library

And what does the lovely VPW do? Pushes The Myth of the Six Million and tells us all those tales of murdered Jews were exaggerated and at most there were only a million. (Only!) (If there were only one person, it would be too many.)

So…the MOGFODAT wasn’t so very different from that ancient bigot that he got us to equate himself with, then.

Does anyone else here know this about Luther?

And what about any of Luther's other views?

I think I’m going to post this in Open because I’d rather it became a discussion about Martin Luther than VPW (but it’ll probably become that anyway)

[year2027]

God first

thanks Twinky

what wrong with this Martin Luther had go through a learning curle

sure Martin Luther step on some people

but was Martin Luther life of value

Jesus Christ said things that some take out of context

John 8:44-45

King James Version (KJV)

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

who was he talking too his people which would be our church

the person himself

yes some laugh thinking he was talking to vile some

but Jesus Christ was talking to us

we are the serpent of old

we are this fleshly body of sin that does not have to stay that way

we can rise from our bodies of sin

with love and a holy kiss Roy

[Twinky]

Roy, he went through a "learning curve" all right.

He started out wanting to save the souls of Jews and convert them to his idea of Christianity.

When they didn't follow him, he turned on them. Denounced them and wanted them dead.

He learned to hate.

Was it his ego that was hurt?

Was it because he genuinely thought they were incorrigible?

Whatever, his words against Jews are vitriolic. Vile. Inciting others to violence.

Not full of the grace that he spouted and claimed was all that was needed. No grace at all.

[Kit Sober]

I currently do not think that it is such a godly thing to cause division. Watching the movie "The KJB" about how the Bible was translated for King James and thinking that if only the Catholics had been included in the translation team what a different Christianity would be today. (KJV is my version of choice)

Catholics have always been on the forefront of building schools, hospitals, orphanages, helping the less fortunate improve their quality of life.

Divide and conquer has always been a standard method the enemy of our souls uses to destroy people.

One wonderful thing about the "pro-life" movement against abortion etc. is that it is a unifying cause for all factions of Christianity.

[johniam]

I heard while in twi that Martin Luther was against Jews. It wasn't a big deal. In case you haven't noticed, they're against us. BTW, what about people who've been kidnapped and deprogrammed and, in some cases, killed. Is one of them too many?

[waysider]

I heard while in twi that Martin Luther was against Jews. It wasn't a big deal.

Anti-Semitism IS a big deal, especially when it's being espoused by people who have a devoted following......Does the Holocaust ring a bell?

In case you haven't noticed, they're against us.

Who are "they" and "us"?

BTW, what about people who've been kidnapped and deprogrammed and, in some cases, killed. Is one of them too many?

Yes, one is too many.

[Twinky]

Someone who doesn’t post here sent me a note with the following:

I saw your post on Marin Luther and thought I'd pass along the book link below, in case you haven't seen it before. It makes for a very interesting read.

The book was written right at the end of WWII (if I recall correctly), so that was fresh on the author's mind. I don't necessarily think that Luther was Hitler's spiritual ancestor, but the description regarding Luther in the book...well, I thought of Martindale. I could see Martindale and Luther follow the same descent.

The book title: "Martin Luther : Hitler's Spiritual Ancestor"

via Tentmaker

via Amazon

The book is easiest to read on the first link.

Not a nice man….

[Twinky]

Kit,

I’d agree that causing division is not a godly thing.

However, I also think that honesty is a Godly thing and we were fed such a line about how marvelous Luther was, how bold, how willing to take a stand… Nobody talked about this side of Luther’s teachings.

The Catholic church at Luther’s time was very corrupt. There are many records of this, and I don’t want to address those. That’s what Luther attempted, with his “95 Theses.” The Catholic church today still has its problems (notably abuse of young children) – again, many records, and widely documented nowadays, not so a few decades ago - there is a current thread (Sandusky) on which you have posted.

Notwithstanding some very bad apples (abusive priests), I’d agree with you that the Catholic church today is out there helping the less fortunate with schools, orphanages, etc. I can't comment further, Catholics in England do their best to keep separate and not integrate with Protestants.

But this thread isn’t about the Catholic church. It’s about a man, Luther, revered by VPW, and whose ideas were incorporated into our “Christian” education within the Way. And I think Luther’s hard, uncompromising, bigoted viewpoint was transmitted to us, not only concerning Jews, but also regarding anyone who wasn’t a Way “believer.”

[shiftthis]

when You , Me , and Anyone else speaks the rightly divdided WORD of GOD division happens ! Not because I or others want division to happen but because some people dont want to hear IT. The adversary gets ....ed off and starts working in poeple. It is written(i think it in Peter , maybe Timothy) that we who stand for GOD are gonna suffer persecution.

[waysider]

when You , Me , and Anyone else speaks the rightly divdided WORD of GOD division happens ! Not because I or others want division to happen but because some people dont want to hear IT. The adversary gets ....ed off and starts working in poeple. It is written(i think it in Peter , maybe Timothy) that we who stand for GOD are gonna suffer persecution.

Oh, how I remember those days. Sigh. Things going well in your area? Must be because you're standing on the word. Things not going well in your area? Must be because you're standing on the word. I'm glad those days are behind me. I wouldn't go back for all the tea in.....one of those places that grows a lot of tea.

Edited July 30, 2012 by waysider

[Ham]

when You , Me , and Anyone else speaks the rightly divdided WORD of GOD division happens ! Not because I or others want division to happen but because some people dont want to hear IT. The adversary gets ....ed off and starts working in poeple. It is written(i think it in Peter , maybe Timothy) that we who stand for GOD are gonna suffer persecution.

You seem to have a lot of assumptions here..

[ex70sHouston]

I have made friends with a Jew who attends the same Sunday School class in a Baptist church. If you ever want to understand the Bible you need to see and learn the Jewish traditions and then read the Bible. It is eye openning.

I now read the Old testiment more than the New.

[Twinky]

It would have been really helpful if part of in rez training had included talks from Jewish leaders - instead of re-runs of PFAL and other classes, and plodding through Light Through an Eastern Window (KC Pillai). A real Jewish understanding could have brought a lot of new perspectives to Christianity. (Oh, dang, there I go again, confusing TWI with a Christian organization.)

Luther tried to convert Jews near him to his brand of Christianity. When they wouldn't listen, he turned viciously against them. Sounds familiar?