Never ever let go of the hope, the absolute basis of Christianity is that the hope is true, based on the works of Jesus Christ.
You asked if you could see God. Scripture says if He were to show his true majesty, it would melt the universe, let alone your face. But it also says we will see Him face to face. ( l Cor 13:12) He can easily take on a form we will see and be blessed by.
On the judgement day, certainly those who stand before the throne will see the judge.
The prosecutor, lucifer. The defense council, Jesus. :)
(A side thought;
If lucifer had known the full majesty and glory of God, he would never have been stupid enough to try to overthrow God. What lucifer had seen must have been enough that to that point God was big enough to be the boss, but not so big that lucifer could not beat Him and take over His throne.)
Keep the hope sweetheart, dear and precious and close to your heart. ;)
The second death has long been an area of interest to me. It is mentioned only four times, all of them in the book of Revelations.
The number and where they are highly significant in themselves. 4 is the number of man, 6 is man's number in his current fallen state as I remember. And the book of Revelations is the only book devoted to future events yet to come.
Here are the four references;
Rev 2:11
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
KJV
Rev 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,
KJV
Rev 20:12-21:1
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV
Rev 21:8
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
KJV
The greek words are plain, simple words which mean exactly 'second' and 'death.'
If you look at them...
The first is a warning,
and the second is a promised guarantee.
The third and fourth are both used as the meaning and finality of the term; lake of fire.
Something said twice is supposed to establish that it will come to pass.
(The numerology is half remembered, but based on Bullinger, not twi.)
To me, it has always been simple and straightforward and sensible.
Does it make sense....
That a loving God has a place he has a large part of his creation living in eternal torment?
That a perfect and sinless God has a place in His universal being for a pustular pimple of evil and pain and misery festering on forever?
No! It does not.
Moreover, when people have suffered the worlds evil, great torment, excruciating pain, whether evil or illness, when there has been no hope for better, how many have begged for death's release from their afflictions.
(All of which were much less torment than eternity in hell will have them suffer.)
But the ordinary man of the sin nature, though he dislikes acknowledging God, still cannot bear extinction, so he rationalizes hell ain't so bad. He will still be ALIVE and so busy shaking hands with all his friends and won't notice his feet are cinders and the fire has reached his knees.
That man better start protecting his most prized private parts or the devil may having his fried mountain oysters for lunch.
I have more, but I am tired.
excie,
I will include here what I thought of writing in your "are the dead alive" thread, but you were wanting experiences, not doctrine, so I passed then.
Never ever let go of the hope, the absolute basis of Christianity is that the hope is true, based on the works of Jesus Christ.
You asked if you could see God. Scripture says if He were to show his true majesty, it would melt the universe, let alone your face. But it also says we will see Him face to face. ( l Cor 13:12) He can easily take on a form we will see and be blessed by.
On the judgement day, certainly those who stand before the throne will see the judge.
The prosecutor, lucifer. The defense council, Jesus. :)
(A side thought;
If lucifer had known the full majesty and glory of God, he would never have been stupid enough to try to overthrow God. What lucifer had seen must have been enough that to that point God was big enough to be the boss, but not so big that lucifer could not beat Him and take over His throne.)
Keep the hope sweetheart, dear and precious and close to your heart. ;)
Kind of tired here, but isn't Jesus Christ OUR defense attorney/advocate. After he comes back as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, in the judgement day, doesn't Jesus Christ do the judging? Actually, he told Israel that he doesn't judge, for he came to save the world, not to judge it, but the words that he said, they would be judged by them. I guess that's God judging by his Word.
If lucifer had known the full majesty and glory of God, he would never have been stupid enough to try to overthrow God. What lucifer had seen must have been enough that to that point God was big enough to be the boss, but not so big that lucifer could not beat Him and take over His throne.)
Keep the hope sweetheart, dear and precious and close to your heart. ;)
Not a biblically based post here, but I always thought that what Lucifer must have thought is that, yes, God is powerful, but he is Spirit & can't show up to these people in physical form. I can fake these people out, convince them that I am God, and, so, BE God. Course he didn't take into account Jesus Christ & his connection to the hidden mystery. Then Lucifer loses his title Lucifer, the Angel of Light, Jesus Christ comes, the light of the world, gets up from the dead, thereby sealing the Devil's fate. The rest, as they say, is history - even that which is future.
Death, as we know it, would indeed be the end of our existence were it not for the fact of the resurrection. It is the resurrection that turns death into a temporary sleep. The second death differs from the first death, not in nature but in results. The first death is a temporary sleep because it is followed the the resurrection. The second death is permanent and irreversible extinction because there is no awakening. The second death is the death resulting from the final judgment which prevents evildoers from living in the new earth to come, a punishment that ultimately results in eternal, irreversible death. The stern punishment awaiting the enemies of righteousness, whose temporary resurrection results only in a return to death and its punishment, their full and final defeat. The wicked will be resurrected mortal in order to receive their punishment which will result in their ultimate annihilation.
All of this is based on the assumption that the dead (those who passed from this current life) are not alive somewhere..
some of us have the impression that we have been alive, and "died", many, many times.
So then, I may have had a first, a second, a third, a fourth.. and so on, deaths..
I remember (or have an impression of, which you may label it true, false, slightly nutty, insane, or reasonable, as you wish) three deaths rather vividly.
That was what the vicster said, parroting Bullinger, etc, etc..
death as we KNOW IT- shouldn't that be death as we THINK IT IS? or maybe as some more affirmatively claim.. as we KNOW it HAS TO BE?
But in reality- isn't it death as we delude ourselves as to what it is.. death as to what we may pretend, or even jokingly mock as to what it is.. or death as to what..
death as to what the religious leaders of the day say that it is.. or our friends say.. or those who want to hold us captive by convincing us (me) of the unseen flames lying on the other side of the veil..
1. Everything I know and believe is just plain wrong. Or could be, or is most likely.. anything I think I know or believe (perhaps outside of pure or applied mathematics), Is at the best unprovable- in no way can I prove to another human creature (or any other species for that matter..)
The book of Revelation is good, but it is not clearly written. There is a lot of figurative language in it. What is more clearly written is 1 Corinthians chapter 15. If one wants to understand what the second death is they need to study this chapter. Here is a verse to consider.
1 Cor 15:25-26
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
NIV
This tells us that death will ultimately be destroyed. When something is destroyed it no longer exists. At some point there will be no more death. And at this time according to verse 28, God may or will be "all in all. The second death could also be looked at as the destruction of death itself. Here are some of the verses to study in context.
1 Cor 15:20-28
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
If you don't mind me saying.. it sounds like a lot of "new age" hokeypokism..
I'm sorry that I am so damned rude.. please ignore me, friends..
Instead of practicing hokeypokism, I recommend reading 1 Corinthians chapter 15 a couple of times. And do you guys understand the word "all"? All means all. It does NOT mean all with distincion or exception. That would only bring scriptural bias. Instead, all should refer to its contextual usage.
If you don't mind me saying.. it sounds like a lot of "new age" hokeypokism..
I'm sorry that I am so damned rude.. please ignore me, friends..
Wow, here you have been talking about bouncing around to different worlds, transitioning to different existences, transitioning to different timelines, & you call what Mark said new age? Oh, you're just joking, & I didn't get the joke, making fun at Mark's expense, being so damn rude as you say. Tired & a little slow here. Sorry I thought better of you.
If you don't want to call that the second death then that is O.K. with me. However, you being a good writer knows that different people have different ways of explaining things. That does not make one right amd the other wrong. Getting back to 1 Corinthians 15, it does clearly say that death will be ultimately destroyed. To me that says that no one will die again after this occurs. So we have some people promoting the negative and other people, perhaps like you and I, promoting the positive. We will have both the negative and the positive. We will have death and life. However, ultimately and at the end we will have the positive and life. Thanks to Jesus Christ, God will be all in all.
If you don't want to call that the second death then that is O.K. with me. However, you being a good writer knows that different people have different ways of explaining things. That does not make one right amd the other wrong. Getting back to 1 Corinthians 15, it does clearly say that death will be ultimately destroyed. To me that says that no one will die again after this occurs. So we have some people promoting the negative and other people, perhaps like you and I, promoting the positive. We will have both the negative and the positive. We will have death and life. However, ultimately and at the end we will have the positive and life. Thanks to Jesus Christ, God will be all in all.
My guess...the first "death" is referring to what we call "childbirth"...and the "second death" is referring to what we call death.
To "die before you die" is the gist of a common invitation at the root of all good religion...an invitation to practice silence and stillness as a minimum foundation for service.
Radical periods of silence and stillness are the most direct and "effortless" way to "taste death and live". Short of that...injury, illness, being near death or simply aging, tend to force us into such deeper layers of self-discovery.
The adult religious folks who miss this are the ones who cause trouble....reacting out of some sort of premature terror. But same goes for the doctors, scientists, and other adults in charge.
To be made whole by contemplating our "second death" (which we simply call death) is to be prepared to be "born again." To see our inevitable death as a second birth prepares us for our final spiritual experience in this life. It also prepares us to serve and be in fellowship with those who are ill, injured, aging and dying. We taste the same states in order to relate. This is a baptism of fire. It hurts. Period.
This is key practice to stimulate things like longevity, wisdom, love and sanity.
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excathedra
i just want to be woken up and meet christ and god (can you meet god?) and that the hope is true
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dabobbada
excie,
Never ever let go of the hope, the absolute basis of Christianity is that the hope is true, based on the works of Jesus Christ.
You asked if you could see God. Scripture says if He were to show his true majesty, it would melt the universe, let alone your face. But it also says we will see Him face to face. ( l Cor 13:12) He can easily take on a form we will see and be blessed by.
On the judgement day, certainly those who stand before the throne will see the judge.
The prosecutor, lucifer. The defense council, Jesus. :)
(A side thought;
If lucifer had known the full majesty and glory of God, he would never have been stupid enough to try to overthrow God. What lucifer had seen must have been enough that to that point God was big enough to be the boss, but not so big that lucifer could not beat Him and take over His throne.)
Keep the hope sweetheart, dear and precious and close to your heart. ;)
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dabobbada
teachmevp,
The second death has long been an area of interest to me. It is mentioned only four times, all of them in the book of Revelations.
The number and where they are highly significant in themselves. 4 is the number of man, 6 is man's number in his current fallen state as I remember. And the book of Revelations is the only book devoted to future events yet to come.
Here are the four references;
Rev 2:11
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
KJV
Rev 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,
KJV
Rev 20:12-21:1
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV
Rev 21:8
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
KJV
The greek words are plain, simple words which mean exactly 'second' and 'death.'
If you look at them...
The first is a warning,
and the second is a promised guarantee.
The third and fourth are both used as the meaning and finality of the term; lake of fire.
Something said twice is supposed to establish that it will come to pass.
(The numerology is half remembered, but based on Bullinger, not twi.)
To me, it has always been simple and straightforward and sensible.
Does it make sense....
That a loving God has a place he has a large part of his creation living in eternal torment?
That a perfect and sinless God has a place in His universal being for a pustular pimple of evil and pain and misery festering on forever?
No! It does not.
Moreover, when people have suffered the worlds evil, great torment, excruciating pain, whether evil or illness, when there has been no hope for better, how many have begged for death's release from their afflictions.
(All of which were much less torment than eternity in hell will have them suffer.)
But the ordinary man of the sin nature, though he dislikes acknowledging God, still cannot bear extinction, so he rationalizes hell ain't so bad. He will still be ALIVE and so busy shaking hands with all his friends and won't notice his feet are cinders and the fire has reached his knees.
That man better start protecting his most prized private parts or the devil may having his fried mountain oysters for lunch.
I have more, but I am tired.
excie,
I will include here what I thought of writing in your "are the dead alive" thread, but you were wanting experiences, not doctrine, so I passed then.
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excathedra
thank you dabbie doo for the beautiful post -- i live for my hope and because i have hope i live
i look forward to hearing what you have to say about the dead and such
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Tom
Kind of tired here, but isn't Jesus Christ OUR defense attorney/advocate. After he comes back as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, in the judgement day, doesn't Jesus Christ do the judging? Actually, he told Israel that he doesn't judge, for he came to save the world, not to judge it, but the words that he said, they would be judged by them. I guess that's God judging by his Word.
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Tom
Not a biblically based post here, but I always thought that what Lucifer must have thought is that, yes, God is powerful, but he is Spirit & can't show up to these people in physical form. I can fake these people out, convince them that I am God, and, so, BE God. Course he didn't take into account Jesus Christ & his connection to the hidden mystery. Then Lucifer loses his title Lucifer, the Angel of Light, Jesus Christ comes, the light of the world, gets up from the dead, thereby sealing the Devil's fate. The rest, as they say, is history - even that which is future.
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Ham
All of this is based on the assumption that the dead (those who passed from this current life) are not alive somewhere..
some of us have the impression that we have been alive, and "died", many, many times.
So then, I may have had a first, a second, a third, a fourth.. and so on, deaths..
I remember (or have an impression of, which you may label it true, false, slightly nutty, insane, or reasonable, as you wish) three deaths rather vividly.
This IS doctrinal, after all, isn't it?
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Ham
ahhhhhhhh ha!
That was what the vicster said, parroting Bullinger, etc, etc..
death as we KNOW IT- shouldn't that be death as we THINK IT IS? or maybe as some more affirmatively claim.. as we KNOW it HAS TO BE?
But in reality- isn't it death as we delude ourselves as to what it is.. death as to what we may pretend, or even jokingly mock as to what it is.. or death as to what..
death as to what the religious leaders of the day say that it is.. or our friends say.. or those who want to hold us captive by convincing us (me) of the unseen flames lying on the other side of the veil..
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waysider
Cowards die many times before their deaths;
The valiant never taste of death but once......Julius Caesar (Wm. Shakespeare)
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Ham
I dunno.. that is certainly a different kind of death, isn't it..
cowardice.. and in a strictly *religious* sense.. isn't that the result of kowtowing to anther's beliefs and spiritual authority?
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Ham
I had a better kind of death in this life..
1. Everything I know and believe is just plain wrong. Or could be, or is most likely.. anything I think I know or believe (perhaps outside of pure or applied mathematics), Is at the best unprovable- in no way can I prove to another human creature (or any other species for that matter..)
2. *you* are not superior to me..
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waysider
A living death....not really on topic, I suppose.
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Ham
but technically it is, because of the first post on the thread- "death as we [think] we know it..
maybe we need some refinement and redefinition here..
just what do you really MEAN? Death as we know(?) it? I think the first line takes advantage of many, many assumptions..
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Ham
I have a few (wildly unprovable, and mostly unbelievable) thoughts..
1. we don't die.. we (quickly) transition to another existence. Bouncing about, from one world, or one universe to the next.
I don't know how that works out when you are 112 years old, or something like that..
maybe it is because one agrees to the terms the next time around.. I dunno.
We (or I) stay the same, everything else changes..
Maybe, we move about, from one time line, to another..
I'm sorry. Please ignore ignorant, possessed Squirrels.
It would be far easier to ignore me than to un-squirrelize the current thread.
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waysider
I think, in a manner of speaking, it's just another way of saying "What goes 'round comes 'round."
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Ham
So succinct..
the whole problem, is that it does not exactly come around.. it's like the spiral of Archimedes..
it's like, the next time it comes around, it is so far "out there" that you might have great difficulty recognizing it..
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Mark Sanguinetti
The book of Revelation is good, but it is not clearly written. There is a lot of figurative language in it. What is more clearly written is 1 Corinthians chapter 15. If one wants to understand what the second death is they need to study this chapter. Here is a verse to consider.
1 Cor 15:25-26
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
NIV
This tells us that death will ultimately be destroyed. When something is destroyed it no longer exists. At some point there will be no more death. And at this time according to verse 28, God may or will be "all in all. The second death could also be looked at as the destruction of death itself. Here are some of the verses to study in context.
1 Cor 15:20-28
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
NKJV
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Ham
If you don't mind me saying.. it sounds like a lot of "new age" hokeypokism..
I'm sorry that I am so damned rude.. please ignore me, friends..
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Mark Sanguinetti
Instead of practicing hokeypokism, I recommend reading 1 Corinthians chapter 15 a couple of times. And do you guys understand the word "all"? All means all. It does NOT mean all with distincion or exception. That would only bring scriptural bias. Instead, all should refer to its contextual usage.
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Tom
Hi Mark, sorry I haven't gotten back to you on that editing. I will.
I beg to differ on the above quoted statement. The second death can't be the death of death because it is the death of people.
Rev 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,
KJV
unless I'm missing what you're saying.
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Tom
Wow, here you have been talking about bouncing around to different worlds, transitioning to different existences, transitioning to different timelines, & you call what Mark said new age? Oh, you're just joking, & I didn't get the joke, making fun at Mark's expense, being so damn rude as you say. Tired & a little slow here. Sorry I thought better of you.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Hi Tom:
If you don't want to call that the second death then that is O.K. with me. However, you being a good writer knows that different people have different ways of explaining things. That does not make one right amd the other wrong. Getting back to 1 Corinthians 15, it does clearly say that death will be ultimately destroyed. To me that says that no one will die again after this occurs. So we have some people promoting the negative and other people, perhaps like you and I, promoting the positive. We will have both the negative and the positive. We will have death and life. However, ultimately and at the end we will have the positive and life. Thanks to Jesus Christ, God will be all in all.
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Tom
Got it. Thanks for the explanation, Mark.
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sirguessalot
My guess...the first "death" is referring to what we call "childbirth"...and the "second death" is referring to what we call death.
To "die before you die" is the gist of a common invitation at the root of all good religion...an invitation to practice silence and stillness as a minimum foundation for service.
Radical periods of silence and stillness are the most direct and "effortless" way to "taste death and live". Short of that...injury, illness, being near death or simply aging, tend to force us into such deeper layers of self-discovery.
The adult religious folks who miss this are the ones who cause trouble....reacting out of some sort of premature terror. But same goes for the doctors, scientists, and other adults in charge.
To be made whole by contemplating our "second death" (which we simply call death) is to be prepared to be "born again." To see our inevitable death as a second birth prepares us for our final spiritual experience in this life. It also prepares us to serve and be in fellowship with those who are ill, injured, aging and dying. We taste the same states in order to relate. This is a baptism of fire. It hurts. Period.
This is key practice to stimulate things like longevity, wisdom, love and sanity.
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