Wow's and/or Way Homes set up a "family fund" and work responsibilities for the group ---- SOCIALISM.
Isn't it amazing? You see people go on anti-socialism tirades, on facebook, and then turn right around and extoll the virtues of whatever Way commune their experience included.
Nothing wrong with "socialism" and in fact there is a lot right with that, and quite a lot wrong with being so "individual" that you forget your fellow human beings. Man was never designed to be alone, right? we need each other!
But that need is one of inter-dependence not dependence. And it's certainly not achieved, not never ever, no, by bullying into submission, and by threats and sanctions that have no scriptural basis whatsoever.
God loves us. Loves!!! And he loves it when we work together with Him and with each other, as fellow-laborers. And he expects us to be smart laborers, able to fulfill a task entrusted to us with minimal guidelines (that's why he gave us brains). He doesn't micro-manage us.
Waddya know, not only do I not have to live life in 15 min increments, it doesn't even matter if I turn up to church 15 minutes late. I'm still greatly welcomed. The sky doesn't fall on my head. In fact, it doesn't even matter if I don't turn up at all. God still loves me and so do the people in the church.
BTW Sky although I take issue with your second post (post no 3) I completely agree with your first post.
Nothing wrong with "socialism" and in fact there is a lot right with that, and quite a lot wrong with being so "individual" that you forget your fellow human beings. Man was never designed to be alone, right? we need each other!
But that need is one of inter-dependence not dependence. And it's certainly not achieved, not never ever, no, by bullying into submission, and by threats and sanctions that have no scriptural basis whatsoever.
God loves us. Loves!!! And he loves it when we work together with Him and with each other, as fellow-laborers. And he expects us to be smart laborers, able to fulfill a task entrusted to us with minimal guidelines (that's why he gave us brains). He doesn't micro-manage us.
Waddya know, not only do I not have to live life in 15 min increments, it doesn't even matter if I turn up to church 15 minutes late. I'm still greatly welcomed. The sky doesn't fall on my head. In fact, it doesn't even matter if I don't turn up at all. God still loves me and so do the people in the church.
BTW Sky although I take issue with your second post (post no 3) I completely agree with your first post.
Yeah, Twinky.......we'll just have to agree to disagree (on the socialism issue).
Nothing quite like being on the WOW field and reprimanded by WOW Rovers for "making sure all in your wow family STAY on the wow field.....even though your wow brother is lazy and mooching off everyone since he couldn't keep a job. Cough up extra rent money that HE DOESN'T HAVE.....while he smokes two packs a day and likes to hit the bars at night. Etc. etc.
Sure.....month after month after month support his free-loading, his lazy attitude, all the while he says that his wow family is "not loving" and should be helping him more! No thanks. Even wierwille's leaders pushed guilt to keep the numbers jacked up.
I tend to find ALOT NOT RIGHT with "socialism."
Now....when I say "rugged individualism" that does NOT mean that I want to live like some mountain man far away from civilization. On the contrary, I want to be involved in peoples' lives......to help them, to give where I can, etc. But, I do NOT want spiritual or governmental overlords who REDISTRIBUTE WEALTH giving to THEIR friends, associates and personal agendas while, at the same time, punishing certain race, creed or religion. American was founded on unalienable rights FROM GOD to every man, woman and child for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Notice: it's a pursuit, not a free-loading system.
In my opinion.......twi had a socialism-trend in the WOWs, Way Homes and Way Corps.
And......in the end, this sort of "socialism" will fail.
In the words of Margaret Thatcher: "The problem with socialism is you run out of other people's money."
twi actually inflicts the worst of both worlds on its worker bees.
The people at the top are lazy and rewarded. Everyone else is stifled and prevented
from excelling-they must CONFORM.
Everyone except those at the top are left to find help ELSEWHERE after spending
15% of their income (at minimum) fattening twi coffers. twi believes that once
you have their money, never give it back.
Wierwille was lazy and heavily plagairized others.....all the while, narcisstically, claiming to have "worked 12 hours a day
for years in researching the scriptures." He demanded rigid conformity from the youth who idolized his mogness.
Anyone who ventured onward in worthy goals and endeavors was branded "worldly" for their quests of a better life of fullfillment.
Twi realized that an independent, hard-working, person would "wander off the reservation" and, most likely, never return. Strong
work ethics led to strong confidence......and twi was soon left in the dust. And, the 15% tithe of that individual and anyone
else who he persuaded went away as well. Thus, wierwille's twi became controlling and stifling.
Yes, it was the WORST of both worlds for the person not wanting an institutionalized version of life.
Today, I laugh when reminded of wierwille's teachings about stewardship where he was preaching that "stewardship was better than
ownership." He emphasized as his example of how, collectively, the corps/staff could walk thru the way woods and enjoy its beauty without having the burden of ownership. I guess his one-sided sermon made sense.....to him. If one followed his teaching, one
would stay on staff.......never own, never invest, never build.......just follow in twi's little world of conformity. Oh, that's
right.....MANY have done just that. But really, the vast majority didn't want to be fenced in.
The trouble with TWI was/is, if you like - that there isn't enough socialism. It's all one-way.
Sure people can walk through the way woods - but when it comes to genuine care of the individuals walking through the woods - it wasn't there. Like giving a decent wage; giving opportunity to flourish, develop one's abilities; respecting what the other(s) (the peons) could bring. Like being supportive when there was inability, illness, distress. Like working together for the common good, instead of for the good of the top guys. Never mind working together for the glory of God which is what the peons were told they were doing. "Animal Farm," anyone?
Sounds to me like some of you are confusing socialism with communism, which it certainly isn't.
But if we start talking about that, this thread will get banished to the now defunct politics forum and we shall all be lined up against a wall and shot by the moderators.
The trouble with TWI was/is, if you like - that there isn't enough socialism. It's all one-way.
Sure people can walk through the way woods - but when it comes to genuine care of the individuals walking through the woods - it wasn't there. Like giving a decent wage; giving opportunity to flourish, develop one's abilities; respecting what the other(s) (the peons) could bring. Like being supportive when there was inability, illness, distress. Like working together for the common good, instead of for the good of the top guys. Never mind working together for the glory of God which is what the peons were told they were doing. "Animal Farm," anyone?
Sounds to me like some of you are confusing socialism with communism, which it certainly isn't.
But if we start talking about that, this thread will get banished to the now defunct politics forum and we shall all be lined up against a wall and shot by the moderators.
Twinky....the term "socialism" has been evolving from century to century and is tweaked to mean different things
to different people. But basicly....."Socialists hold that capitalism is an illegitimate economic system, since it
largely serves the interests of the owners of capital and involves the exploitation of other economic classes. As such,
they wish to replace it completely or at least make substantial modifications to it, in order to create a more just society
that would guarantee a certain basic standard of living." Here in America.....the food stamp enrollees have jumped to
48 million, people stay on unemployment when certain entry-level job opportunities arise, and the entitlement society is
fueling lazy, non-productive numbers in droves.
Should I have to pay for the 25 year old who refuses to work? Should I have to provide for his livelihood while he plays
on his computer all day? Why should wealth re-distribution be the new normal WHEN government officials hand out millions to
their union buddies who, then, turn around and promote their elections? The cycle of corruption provides helping the
government/union good-boy-club to the detriment of society. More people have been killed in gang-related and black-on-black
crime in Chicago last year than our war in Afghanistan. Why is government and media silent on all this?
Anyone who is paying attention knows that socialistic wealth redistribution is unfair and corrupt. Please excuse me for
not having more favorable views of a utopian "social society." For many, the ways of man are evil.
And, yes....I understand some of the downside of today's capitalism. If America had a flat-tax or fair tax system without
all the corporate loopholes and lobbyists in Washington pushing favortism, then there would be a better level playing field
for all. And, some of these fair-minded capitalists give major donations to charitable causes every year.
The American dream is NOT owning your own home.
The American dream is UPWARD mobility.
I do NOT want a socialistic government that "guarantees" my social existence.
I WANT a government that defends my rights as a free citizen to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
I WANT a government that defends America, supports transportation and commerce, health issues, etc. and that
elected officials are the servants OF THE PEOPLE. No kings. No monarchy. Elected servants.
I don't see WOW or Way Homes as socialist institutes when they worked as they were suppose to. WOWs agreed to work part time and pay their fair share of the basic necessities, Like a community agrees to paying taxes to pay for basic community necessities like police and fire. Even the socialist organizations say this is not socialism. But what happens is some good hearted well meaning people decide rather than each take care of their own, they legislate redistribution. Then what would have been a good reasonable arrangement becomes socialism. When the Rovers decided all should pay for the lazy unproductive they forced socialism on all. When I was WOW anything left after the tithe and the family fund was mine, all mine! I even refused to pay for a WOW's returning home expenses. They wasted money right and left all year, so as I told the limb leader; they needed to learn to take care of themselves. I'll be damned if they didn't find a way to the ROA, but returned to a Way Home where we were WOW.
But then the place to get political is over there------------------> blueredusa
I don't see WOW or Way Homes as socialist institutes when they worked as they were suppose to. WOWs agreed to work part time and pay their fair share of the basic necessities...
Yeah, when politics start to dictate everyday life.....it happens. <_<
With regards to WOWs, twi assigned them....not me. Why should I pay extra for free-loaders?
If twi would NOT uphold the standards of the WOW program (to stop the hemorraging of exits), then why should I
be responsible to cover for twi's lack of principle? Not being able to find work is one thing. Refusing to
Yeah, when politics start to dictate everyday life.....it happens. <_<
With regards to WOWs, twi assigned them....not me. Why should I pay extra for free-loaders?
If twi would NOT uphold the standards of the WOW program (to stop the hemorraging of exits), then why should I
be responsible to cover for twi's lack of principle? Not being able to find work is one thing. Refusing to
go out and look for work is quite another.
Both times I was WOW there was a date set in stone for housing and jobs. Both times I saw or heard of peopel getting sent home. Once 1 WOW had a job and the other 3 didn't. The 3 were sent home and the 1 had to move to be with another WOW group that sent 1 home for joblessness. I never in my 22 years saw this legislated socialism. I am not saying it didn't happen, I just never saw it.
Three years in a Fellowlaborers program. It was a hybrid mix of authoritarianism and socialism. I'm not saying that aspect of the program was either good or bad. I'm simply saying that's what it was.
Three years in a Fellowlaborers program. It was a hybrid mix of authoritarianism and socialism. I'm not saying that aspect of the program was either good or bad. I'm simply saying that's what it was.
Perhaps I should clarify this post. I was commenting on a specific program, not
"the ministry" in general.
In the program (read: commune) we had several mandatory funds. There was a fellowlaborer fund, which paid rent and utilities, a house fund, which covered individual house expenses, such as dish soap, toilet paper and the like, and a food fund (Manna fund), which covered the expenses involved with our food co-op. We had a community garden that supplied our vegetable needs. We were also expected to share freely of our pluralities. So, if you had a car and weren't using it one day, you were expected to loan it to someone who needed it. (It's not hard to understand how this aspect was subject to abuse by people who always seemed to be more "needy" than others.) We also had to "abundantly share" to support the limb facility, just like everyone else in the state. Even our time was considered communally owned, though we were permitted some individual time on Sundays to wash clothes and run errands. This is what I meant by the socialism aspect.
At the same time, we had absolutely no voice in how these funds and rules were developed or administered. Our time was strictly controlled. We were not free to pursue hobbies or outside interests. We were not permitted to fraternize with or date anyone outside the program. We were told when to get up, when to go to bed, what to do, what not to do, when to eat, what to eat, and how to eat. None of these items were up for discussion or questioning. Obedience ruled the day. This is what I meant by the authoritarian aspect.
Edit:
So, when I hear people talk about how much they learned in the program, I have to wonder exactly what it is they think they "learned".
There is a dramatic range of variation in what amounts to socialism in practice.
Ummm, yeah......I already said that.
Democratic socialism, where the voice of the people to say what the government is does and doesn't do is FAR from what any
of us experienced in TWI.
Really? So now....you know what ALL of us experienced in twi? <_<
So, I would encourage you, Skyrider, to figure out what it is you are really mad about and stick to working through those issues.
Mad? Not really. Just making an emphatic point about wierwille's cult/socialism. In wierwille's commune, when everyone is "paid on a need basis, guaranteeing basic needs to be met, staffers couldn't do any secular work or overtime to enhance their income, twi monitored the income salaries thru the PR department, all new "research" from research team was collectively wierwille's to proclaim and put his name on new publications, ownership was taught as unnecessary for staff/corps.....
Perhaps I should clarify this post. I was commenting on a specific program, not
"the ministry" in general.
In the program (read: commune) we had several mandatory funds. There was a fellowlaborer fund, which paid rent and utilities, a house fund, which covered individual house expenses, such as dish soap, toilet paper and the like, and a food fund (Manna fund), which covered the expenses involved with our food co-op. We had a community garden that supplied our vegetable needs. We were also expected to share freely of our pluralities. So, if you had a car and weren't using it one day, you were expected to loan it to someone who needed it. (It's not hard to understand how this aspect was subject to abuse by people who always seemed to be more "needy" than others.) We also had to "abundantly share" to support the limb facility, just like everyone else in the state. Even our time was considered communally owned, though we were permitted some individual time on Sundays to wash clothes and run errands. This is what I meant by the socialism aspect.
At the same time, we had absolutely no voice in how these funds and rules were developed or administered. Our time was strictly controlled. We were not free to pursue hobbies or outside interests. We were not permitted to fraternize with or date anyone outside the program. We were told when to get up, when to go to bed, what to do, what not to do, when to eat, what to eat, and how to eat. None of these items were up for discussion or questioning. Obedience ruled the day. This is what I meant by the authoritarian aspect.
Edit:
So, when I hear people talk about how much they learned in the program, I have to wonder exactly what it is they think they "learned".
waysider......everytime you share your experiences of fellow-laborers, that program was gruelingly oppressive. The aspect of "sharing" or confiscating one's car for the collective use of the group sucks (if it's YOUR car). Of course, WOWs did this as well. And, having others drive your car without insurance coverage is illegal, right?
Yeah, obedience ruled the day. Amazing how subservient all twi's programs were.....and, of course, there are still those who never saw "the true belly of the beast." Some still defend "the things they learned in twi"....... <_<
But, hey......with many, it matters not to me that we "agree to disagree."
I ain't there no more.
Today's decisions are, now, my decisions.......praise the Lord. :)
Driving without insurance wasn't illegal yet, way back then.....but it sure was stupid....unless, of course, you were "believing" everything would work out fine.....which it always did.... <_<
Somebody "borrowed" my car, once, and drove it all the way to Columbus (25 miles or so) in 2nd gear! Naturally, God healed my transmission.....uh huh ...Praise the lord!
Remember how so many of the "Rocks" finished with cars in a field getting stuck in the mud. A call would go out for people with four wheel drives to loan their suv's to grounds crews to help get folks unstuck.
How wonderful,
how loving,
how giving,
How many times did those 4-wheeler owners get their vehicles back with something broken because those grounds crews didn't know or didn't care about how they used and abused them.
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krys
I could not have said it better, although I feel the same way, Skyrider. And in addition....I find it so much easier to breathe!
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skyrider
Yes......much easier to live and breathe.
Staffers and corps have this meager living based on the condition of their obedience to twi.
As long as they obey......their "master" adds more food to the dish. But, if and when, they
refuse to "jump" then the abuse and scolding erupts in earnest.
When wierwille hired Rhoda "on a needs-basis" he set the standard of twi's trajectory ---- SOCIALISM.
Wow's and/or Way Homes set up a "family fund" and work responsibilities for the group ---- SOCIALISM.
Give me RUGGED INDIVIDUALISM and private equity and ownership ANY DAY OF THE WEEK.
HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY
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waysider
Isn't it amazing? You see people go on anti-socialism tirades, on facebook, and then turn right around and extoll the virtues of whatever Way commune their experience included.
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Twinky
Nothing wrong with "socialism" and in fact there is a lot right with that, and quite a lot wrong with being so "individual" that you forget your fellow human beings. Man was never designed to be alone, right? we need each other!
But that need is one of inter-dependence not dependence. And it's certainly not achieved, not never ever, no, by bullying into submission, and by threats and sanctions that have no scriptural basis whatsoever.
God loves us. Loves!!! And he loves it when we work together with Him and with each other, as fellow-laborers. And he expects us to be smart laborers, able to fulfill a task entrusted to us with minimal guidelines (that's why he gave us brains). He doesn't micro-manage us.
Waddya know, not only do I not have to live life in 15 min increments, it doesn't even matter if I turn up to church 15 minutes late. I'm still greatly welcomed. The sky doesn't fall on my head. In fact, it doesn't even matter if I don't turn up at all. God still loves me and so do the people in the church.
BTW Sky although I take issue with your second post (post no 3) I completely agree with your first post.
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skyrider
Yeah, Twinky.......we'll just have to agree to disagree (on the socialism issue).
Nothing quite like being on the WOW field and reprimanded by WOW Rovers for "making sure all in your wow family STAY on the wow field.....even though your wow brother is lazy and mooching off everyone since he couldn't keep a job. Cough up extra rent money that HE DOESN'T HAVE.....while he smokes two packs a day and likes to hit the bars at night. Etc. etc.
Sure.....month after month after month support his free-loading, his lazy attitude, all the while he says that his wow family is "not loving" and should be helping him more! No thanks. Even wierwille's leaders pushed guilt to keep the numbers jacked up.
I tend to find ALOT NOT RIGHT with "socialism."
Now....when I say "rugged individualism" that does NOT mean that I want to live like some mountain man far away from civilization. On the contrary, I want to be involved in peoples' lives......to help them, to give where I can, etc. But, I do NOT want spiritual or governmental overlords who REDISTRIBUTE WEALTH giving to THEIR friends, associates and personal agendas while, at the same time, punishing certain race, creed or religion. American was founded on unalienable rights FROM GOD to every man, woman and child for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Notice: it's a pursuit, not a free-loading system.
In my opinion.......twi had a socialism-trend in the WOWs, Way Homes and Way Corps.
And......in the end, this sort of "socialism" will fail.
In the words of Margaret Thatcher: "The problem with socialism is you run out of other people's money."
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excathedra
i'm happy for you skyrider
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WordWolf
The worst part of socialism is that it discourages excelling and rewards the lazy.
The worst part of capitalism is its callousness-the poor are left to starve.
(When these don't happen, the systems aren't taken to their extremes, and people
MODERATE them somewhat and don't let them get that far.)
twi actually inflicts the worst of both worlds on its worker bees.
The people at the top are lazy and rewarded. Everyone else is stifled and prevented
from excelling-they must CONFORM.
Everyone except those at the top are left to find help ELSEWHERE after spending
15% of their income (at minimum) fattening twi coffers. twi believes that once
you have their money, never give it back.
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skyrider
Wierwille was lazy and heavily plagairized others.....all the while, narcisstically, claiming to have "worked 12 hours a day
for years in researching the scriptures." He demanded rigid conformity from the youth who idolized his mogness.
Anyone who ventured onward in worthy goals and endeavors was branded "worldly" for their quests of a better life of fullfillment.
Twi realized that an independent, hard-working, person would "wander off the reservation" and, most likely, never return. Strong
work ethics led to strong confidence......and twi was soon left in the dust. And, the 15% tithe of that individual and anyone
else who he persuaded went away as well. Thus, wierwille's twi became controlling and stifling.
Yes, it was the WORST of both worlds for the person not wanting an institutionalized version of life.
Today, I laugh when reminded of wierwille's teachings about stewardship where he was preaching that "stewardship was better than
ownership." He emphasized as his example of how, collectively, the corps/staff could walk thru the way woods and enjoy its beauty without having the burden of ownership. I guess his one-sided sermon made sense.....to him. If one followed his teaching, one
would stay on staff.......never own, never invest, never build.......just follow in twi's little world of conformity. Oh, that's
right.....MANY have done just that. But really, the vast majority didn't want to be fenced in.
HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY.
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Twinky
The trouble with TWI was/is, if you like - that there isn't enough socialism. It's all one-way.
Sure people can walk through the way woods - but when it comes to genuine care of the individuals walking through the woods - it wasn't there. Like giving a decent wage; giving opportunity to flourish, develop one's abilities; respecting what the other(s) (the peons) could bring. Like being supportive when there was inability, illness, distress. Like working together for the common good, instead of for the good of the top guys. Never mind working together for the glory of God which is what the peons were told they were doing. "Animal Farm," anyone?
Sounds to me like some of you are confusing socialism with communism, which it certainly isn't.
But if we start talking about that, this thread will get banished to the now defunct politics forum and we shall all be lined up against a wall and shot by the moderators.
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waysider
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skyrider
Twinky....the term "socialism" has been evolving from century to century and is tweaked to mean different things
to different people. But basicly....."Socialists hold that capitalism is an illegitimate economic system, since it
largely serves the interests of the owners of capital and involves the exploitation of other economic classes. As such,
they wish to replace it completely or at least make substantial modifications to it, in order to create a more just society
that would guarantee a certain basic standard of living." Here in America.....the food stamp enrollees have jumped to
48 million, people stay on unemployment when certain entry-level job opportunities arise, and the entitlement society is
fueling lazy, non-productive numbers in droves.
Should I have to pay for the 25 year old who refuses to work? Should I have to provide for his livelihood while he plays
on his computer all day? Why should wealth re-distribution be the new normal WHEN government officials hand out millions to
their union buddies who, then, turn around and promote their elections? The cycle of corruption provides helping the
government/union good-boy-club to the detriment of society. More people have been killed in gang-related and black-on-black
crime in Chicago last year than our war in Afghanistan. Why is government and media silent on all this?
Anyone who is paying attention knows that socialistic wealth redistribution is unfair and corrupt. Please excuse me for
not having more favorable views of a utopian "social society." For many, the ways of man are evil.
And, yes....I understand some of the downside of today's capitalism. If America had a flat-tax or fair tax system without
all the corporate loopholes and lobbyists in Washington pushing favortism, then there would be a better level playing field
for all. And, some of these fair-minded capitalists give major donations to charitable causes every year.
The American dream is NOT owning your own home.
The American dream is UPWARD mobility.
I do NOT want a socialistic government that "guarantees" my social existence.
I WANT a government that defends my rights as a free citizen to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
I WANT a government that defends America, supports transportation and commerce, health issues, etc. and that
elected officials are the servants OF THE PEOPLE. No kings. No monarchy. Elected servants.
Thank the Lord for men like George Washington.
.
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Ductape
Getting awfully political here aren't you all ?
I don't see WOW or Way Homes as socialist institutes when they worked as they were suppose to. WOWs agreed to work part time and pay their fair share of the basic necessities, Like a community agrees to paying taxes to pay for basic community necessities like police and fire. Even the socialist organizations say this is not socialism. But what happens is some good hearted well meaning people decide rather than each take care of their own, they legislate redistribution. Then what would have been a good reasonable arrangement becomes socialism. When the Rovers decided all should pay for the lazy unproductive they forced socialism on all. When I was WOW anything left after the tithe and the family fund was mine, all mine! I even refused to pay for a WOW's returning home expenses. They wasted money right and left all year, so as I told the limb leader; they needed to learn to take care of themselves. I'll be damned if they didn't find a way to the ROA, but returned to a Way Home where we were WOW.
But then the place to get political is over there------------------> blueredusa
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skyrider
Yeah, when politics start to dictate everyday life.....it happens. <_<
With regards to WOWs, twi assigned them....not me. Why should I pay extra for free-loaders?
If twi would NOT uphold the standards of the WOW program (to stop the hemorraging of exits), then why should I
be responsible to cover for twi's lack of principle? Not being able to find work is one thing. Refusing to
go out and look for work is quite another.
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Ductape
Both times I was WOW there was a date set in stone for housing and jobs. Both times I saw or heard of peopel getting sent home. Once 1 WOW had a job and the other 3 didn't. The 3 were sent home and the 1 had to move to be with another WOW group that sent 1 home for joblessness. I never in my 22 years saw this legislated socialism. I am not saying it didn't happen, I just never saw it.
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skyrider
Yeah......getting a job and keeping a job were two different things. After about three months,
it became obvious who was serious about being a WOW and who were the free-loaders.
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waysider
Three years in a Fellowlaborers program. It was a hybrid mix of authoritarianism and socialism. I'm not saying that aspect of the program was either good or bad. I'm simply saying that's what it was.
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Rocky
That was my impression also.
I think it's dramatically OFF POINT/OFF THE MARK (sorry for raising my voice just for a second) to equate TWI with Socialism.
There is a dramatic range of variation in what amounts to socialism in practice.
Democratic socialism, where the voice of the people to say what the government is does and doesn't do is FAR from what any
of us experienced in TWI.
On the other hand, despotism comes in a variety of governmental forms from communism to fascism to capitalist oligarchy and plutocracy.
So, I would encourage you, Skyrider, to figure out what it is you are really mad about and stick to working through those issues.
If you're mad about socialism, fine. But you seem to be mixing up issues.
Rugged individualism really means that in society we applaud losing. We condemn those who must not be believing correctly.
Does that sound at all familiar?
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waysider
Perhaps I should clarify this post. I was commenting on a specific program, not
"the ministry" in general.
In the program (read: commune) we had several mandatory funds. There was a fellowlaborer fund, which paid rent and utilities, a house fund, which covered individual house expenses, such as dish soap, toilet paper and the like, and a food fund (Manna fund), which covered the expenses involved with our food co-op. We had a community garden that supplied our vegetable needs. We were also expected to share freely of our pluralities. So, if you had a car and weren't using it one day, you were expected to loan it to someone who needed it. (It's not hard to understand how this aspect was subject to abuse by people who always seemed to be more "needy" than others.) We also had to "abundantly share" to support the limb facility, just like everyone else in the state. Even our time was considered communally owned, though we were permitted some individual time on Sundays to wash clothes and run errands. This is what I meant by the socialism aspect.
At the same time, we had absolutely no voice in how these funds and rules were developed or administered. Our time was strictly controlled. We were not free to pursue hobbies or outside interests. We were not permitted to fraternize with or date anyone outside the program. We were told when to get up, when to go to bed, what to do, what not to do, when to eat, what to eat, and how to eat. None of these items were up for discussion or questioning. Obedience ruled the day. This is what I meant by the authoritarian aspect.
Edit:
So, when I hear people talk about how much they learned in the program, I have to wonder exactly what it is they think they "learned".
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skyrider
Ummm, yeah......I already said that.
Really? So now....you know what ALL of us experienced in twi? <_<
Mad? Not really. Just making an emphatic point about wierwille's cult/socialism. In wierwille's commune, when everyone is "paid on a need basis, guaranteeing basic needs to be met, staffers couldn't do any secular work or overtime to enhance their income, twi monitored the income salaries thru the PR department, all new "research" from research team was collectively wierwille's to proclaim and put his name on new publications, ownership was taught as unnecessary for staff/corps.....
YES.....if it quacks like a duck, its socialism.
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skyrider
waysider......everytime you share your experiences of fellow-laborers, that program was gruelingly oppressive. The aspect of "sharing" or confiscating one's car for the collective use of the group sucks (if it's YOUR car). Of course, WOWs did this as well. And, having others drive your car without insurance coverage is illegal, right?
Yeah, obedience ruled the day. Amazing how subservient all twi's programs were.....and, of course, there are still those who never saw "the true belly of the beast." Some still defend "the things they learned in twi"....... <_<
But, hey......with many, it matters not to me that we "agree to disagree."
I ain't there no more.
Today's decisions are, now, my decisions.......praise the Lord. :)
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waysider
Driving without insurance wasn't illegal yet, way back then.....but it sure was stupid....unless, of course, you were "believing" everything would work out fine.....which it always did.... <_<
Somebody "borrowed" my car, once, and drove it all the way to Columbus (25 miles or so) in 2nd gear! Naturally, God healed my transmission.....uh huh ...Praise the lord!
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skyrider
A 6th corps grad borrowed my car to head up to Lima, OH. On the way back, he ran it out of gas
and LEFT IT. And, to make matters worse.....he never told me. I had to go find him and ask
about my car. What a hassle. Hours later, I had my car back.
Gotta tell you.....it sure dampens the christian spirit of loaning my car for others to drive. <_<
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dabobbada
Speaking of borrowed cars,
Remember how so many of the "Rocks" finished with cars in a field getting stuck in the mud. A call would go out for people with four wheel drives to loan their suv's to grounds crews to help get folks unstuck.
How wonderful,
how loving,
how giving,
How many times did those 4-wheeler owners get their vehicles back with something broken because those grounds crews didn't know or didn't care about how they used and abused them.
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skyrider
dabobbada....yeah, roa cars stuck in the mud.
And, people leaving all sorts of tents, camping gear, etc. on the roa grounds, kept in the warehouse
for three months as "lost and found"......much, of which, was rarily claimed. Stewardship? hahaha
No wonder martindale was more than happy to cancel wierwille's roa program.
But then again......today's twi is drying up on the vine. With all the roa foibles, it sparked a
nostagic pilgrimage to twi's hq each year that no longer exists.
Wierwille knew how to sell the snake oil.
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