What I want is the original article, which the "New" item purports to critique. I want to know what HWF says, not what someone says HWF says.
In the same way that there has been a lot of misquoting (including by JohnJ) of WPV & TWI material, no doubt HWF may also be being misrepresented.
"Keeds, I wish you could read it in the original!"
I suppose I could go further, and say I want to read what VPW says...but frankly enough of his stuff/plagiarism has passed before my eyes. And if I had Rs10 there is probably a better use for it.
Was I the only one in twi who endeavored to live the Scriptures? who wanted my mediator and lord to guide my way?
who desired to praise the Lord God in song and worship? who was daily humbled that my savior saved a wretch like me?
Yes, year after year.....wierwille's twi was shown to have been led astray. That is perfectly clear. But I remember those
mid-70s when twi's songbook was filled with Jesus, and Christ, and "Lord I believe" songs. A time when prison outreach and
hospital visits were more common. A time when helping neighbors and others was the christian way of doing things.
Yet, twi ramped up into cult-mode as wierwille built his corps-cloning factory.
Maybe it was just me.....living in an "alternate universe," but I have several times testified of answers to prayer, healings,
and that still small voice of God on dozens of occasions. Specific results! And, it wasn't the formulaic methods of twi that
I applied.....it was simply walking with God. Listening humbly. Having an open heart. Willing to help. Maybe that walking
in love, walking in light, walking circumspectly (in Ephesians) is more pertinent that those "sixteen keys?" /sarc
Without talking about wierwille and his filth.......I know what was in my heart those years. More than anything, I wanted to
be a vessel for the Lord's purposes. I wanted to see HIM glorified. I desired with my whole being to submit as one of Christ's
disciples and see how "loaves and fishes" could be multiplied to feed thousands. And, healing.....to pray with those who were
burdened and witness God's healing power instantaneously!
I know, I know.....why did I stay so long in twi? It's complicated.
But, I do think that there were hundreds, if not thousands, like me who desired this to.......until the indoctrination of their
wierwille-droning talking points drowned out the motives of one's heart. Maybe I am totally wrong on this. Guess it doesn't
really matter now.
Anyhoo.......this is off-topic, isn't it? :B)
I understand what you are saying, skyrider, having been one of those thousands of people you describe who wanted, and still wants, to see God's love and power prevail in peoples' lives. We accepted the definition that is what would happen when the "Word moved over the world". I was active in Word and Culture, having designed the retemory game It Is Written. I spent several Rocks of Ages in the Hearts and Crafts tent. I coordinated a TWIG for two years and saw God work signs, miracles and wonders in it.
In PFAL, Wierwille talked about the church board that makes their plans, then prays "And thank you God for blessing what we've already decided." He was describing the difference between walking by the flesh and walking by the spirit. It wasn't until I was in residence training as member of the 16th Corps that I found out that "the Word moving over the world" was being planned and organized exactly the same way that church board operated in PFAL, walking by the flesh.
You wrote, "Yes, year after year.....wierwille's twi was shown to have been led astray."
Wierwille's TWI was never led astray. It withered as it began, the personal empire of a con-man. Wierwille had to mix some truth in with his poisonous brew. You have to cover the flavor of antifreeze to get a person to drink it. There was enough truth mixed into what Wierwille taught that God could work spectacular things when people believed the true parts.
But TWI culture, especially Corps culture, was designed to lead people to transfer their allegiance from the Lord Jesus Christ to VPW, and after his death, to the organization.
Looking back,I know that the wonderful visions of Word Over the World I imagined myself, and built for my twig-mates, could not have survived Wierwille's grasping micro-management.
I got hold of a copy of Dilemma of Foreign Missions in India shortly after I disassociated from TWI in 1986/'87, and was horrified to see how closely the Corps training duplicated the practices Wierwille decried in Dilemma.
God is honest and God is good. Weiwille and TWI were never, at heart, either, even though many of his followers were. Corps training weeded those followers out, or perverted them. That was what happened to me.
God is honest and God is good. Weiwille and TWI were never, at heart, either, even though many of his followers were. Corps training weeded those followers out, or perverted them. That was what happened to me.
Love,
Steve
Thanks for your post. All of it.....well spoken and so true!
What wholesale deception from the get-go. The corps program and staff only pulled the curtain back further.
To this day, it amazes me that I stayed so long even after seeing red flags after about 4 years.
But hey.....that's what INDOCTRINATION does, isn't it? <_<
I did not look for a copy of Dilemma on line. I bought a hard copy, I think on Amazon. I can give page numbers for any quotes of Dilemma I included in my article if anyone wishes them.
Like Dilemma, most of VP's "books" were transcribed sermons he gave, a method which captured his sloppy, extreme, offhanded, and inaccurate manner.
i saw some really wonderful loving godly things miracles whatever happen
i think it was because of people who loved god so much and his grace and kindness all that stuff. i don't know how else to explain. of course it was not a formula of any kind. it was heart of who was behind it and what was going on
do i have to credit vic? i don't think so
there are other bible verses along these lines but i can't remember them :)
anyway, in my opinion, nothing to lose sleep over
sorry if i sound like a jerk. i was/can be a "believer" with any help from vic thank you
WW, that's not quite what this particular thread is about. That topic has been discussed many times.
Go easy on us newcomers. I usually have crappy luck with the search feature and this is the first time I read the different accounts between Mrs. WW and Victoid.
Recommended Posts
waysider
Click on "New".
It's at the top of the menu, on the left side of the link in post #1. Then, click on the link entitled "Wierwille's Attack on Christian Ministries".
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Steve......I, respectfully, disagree.
Was I the only one in twi who endeavored to live the Scriptures? who wanted my mediator and lord to guide my way?
who desired to praise the Lord God in song and worship? who was daily humbled that my savior saved a wretch like me?
Yes, year after year.....wierwille's twi was shown to have been led astray. That is perfectly clear. But I remember those
mid-70s when twi's songbook was filled with Jesus, and Christ, and "Lord I believe" songs. A time when prison outreach and
hospital visits were more common. A time when helping neighbors and others was the christian way of doing things.
Yet, twi ramped up into cult-mode as wierwille built his corps-cloning factory.
Maybe it was just me.....living in an "alternate universe," but I have several times testified of answers to prayer, healings,
and that still small voice of God on dozens of occasions. Specific results! And, it wasn't the formulaic methods of twi that
I applied.....it was simply walking with God. Listening humbly. Having an open heart. Willing to help. Maybe that walking
in love, walking in light, walking circumspectly (in Ephesians) is more pertinent that those "sixteen keys?" /sarc
Without talking about wierwille and his filth.......I know what was in my heart those years. More than anything, I wanted to
be a vessel for the Lord's purposes. I wanted to see HIM glorified. I desired with my whole being to submit as one of Christ's
disciples and see how "loaves and fishes" could be multiplied to feed thousands. And, healing.....to pray with those who were
burdened and witness God's healing power instantaneously!
I know, I know.....why did I stay so long in twi? It's complicated.
But, I do think that there were hundreds, if not thousands, like me who desired this to.......until the indoctrination of their
wierwille-droning talking points drowned out the motives of one's heart. Maybe I am totally wrong on this. Guess it doesn't
really matter now.
Anyhoo.......this is off-topic, isn't it? :B)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Wierwille counted on that and purposely exploited it to his benefit.....That is, in part, what makes his actions so despicable.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
It's news to me and I found the links on your site very informative.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
I've seen that, OldSkool.
What I want is the original article, which the "New" item purports to critique. I want to know what HWF says, not what someone says HWF says.
In the same way that there has been a lot of misquoting (including by JohnJ) of WPV & TWI material, no doubt HWF may also be being misrepresented.
"Keeds, I wish you could read it in the original!"
I suppose I could go further, and say I want to read what VPW says...but frankly enough of his stuff/plagiarism has passed before my eyes. And if I had Rs10 there is probably a better use for it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
No thanks, Kermit.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve Lortz
I understand what you are saying, skyrider, having been one of those thousands of people you describe who wanted, and still wants, to see God's love and power prevail in peoples' lives. We accepted the definition that is what would happen when the "Word moved over the world". I was active in Word and Culture, having designed the retemory game It Is Written. I spent several Rocks of Ages in the Hearts and Crafts tent. I coordinated a TWIG for two years and saw God work signs, miracles and wonders in it.
In PFAL, Wierwille talked about the church board that makes their plans, then prays "And thank you God for blessing what we've already decided." He was describing the difference between walking by the flesh and walking by the spirit. It wasn't until I was in residence training as member of the 16th Corps that I found out that "the Word moving over the world" was being planned and organized exactly the same way that church board operated in PFAL, walking by the flesh.
You wrote, "Yes, year after year.....wierwille's twi was shown to have been led astray."
Wierwille's TWI was never led astray. It withered as it began, the personal empire of a con-man. Wierwille had to mix some truth in with his poisonous brew. You have to cover the flavor of antifreeze to get a person to drink it. There was enough truth mixed into what Wierwille taught that God could work spectacular things when people believed the true parts.
But TWI culture, especially Corps culture, was designed to lead people to transfer their allegiance from the Lord Jesus Christ to VPW, and after his death, to the organization.
Looking back,I know that the wonderful visions of Word Over the World I imagined myself, and built for my twig-mates, could not have survived Wierwille's grasping micro-management.
I got hold of a copy of Dilemma of Foreign Missions in India shortly after I disassociated from TWI in 1986/'87, and was horrified to see how closely the Corps training duplicated the practices Wierwille decried in Dilemma.
God is honest and God is good. Weiwille and TWI were never, at heart, either, even though many of his followers were. Corps training weeded those followers out, or perverted them. That was what happened to me.
Love,
Steve
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Thanks for your post. All of it.....well spoken and so true!
What wholesale deception from the get-go. The corps program and staff only pulled the curtain back further.
To this day, it amazes me that I stayed so long even after seeing red flags after about 4 years.
But hey.....that's what INDOCTRINATION does, isn't it? <_<
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johnj
I did not look for a copy of Dilemma on line. I bought a hard copy, I think on Amazon. I can give page numbers for any quotes of Dilemma I included in my article if anyone wishes them.
Like Dilemma, most of VP's "books" were transcribed sermons he gave, a method which captured his sloppy, extreme, offhanded, and inaccurate manner.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
i saw some really wonderful loving godly things miracles whatever happen
i think it was because of people who loved god so much and his grace and kindness all that stuff. i don't know how else to explain. of course it was not a formula of any kind. it was heart of who was behind it and what was going on
do i have to credit vic? i don't think so
there are other bible verses along these lines but i can't remember them :)
anyway, in my opinion, nothing to lose sleep over
sorry if i sound like a jerk. i was/can be a "believer" with any help from vic thank you
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Among other things, the Balaam account showed us that even an @$$ can speak the truth if God wants.
Doesn't mean we should then elevate that @$$ and make him a minister or promote his class
or give him 10% of our income.
God worked with LOTS of Christians who were in twi IN SPITE OF their connections to twi.
If you played "telephone" and followed back "who witnessed to who", I'm confident nearly all of
the deliverance people got were because they learned from people who learned from people
(and so on) who were part of the Jesus People/House of Acts whom vpw recruited when he hijacked
the hippies from their spontaneous work with God to vpw's regimented religion.
God blessed those people no matter what group they spoke of.
Lots of us were distant "descendants" of them, and many of us did things God would like-
but not because of twi or becauae of vpw.
=======================================
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Steve Lortz
I'm old too, excie. Francis and Mr. Ed could certainly be sarcastic at times. I liked them. They weren't smarmy like Wierwille.
Love,
Steve
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
A promo for the new and improved PFAL class!!!
HERE
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
i must agree they were quite honest compared to the old grey man
lol :wub: love,e
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
There were some incidents concerning vpw's visit to India that we've discussed before.
There's what vpw SAID, and what HAPPENED.
For example, vpw said something about there never before having been a minister who
traveled there with his whole family- saying he was the first.
Supposing there were none before him, he wasn't the first because he left his
youngest son separated from his entire nuclear family for several months when
he was tiny.
vpw also claimed he had entre to all sorts of things there. This is true.
His host, Dr Williams, had entre and walked vpw through everything.
vpw responded by swallowing Williams' line of talk about missionaries-
which vpw later spoke on and had someone transcribe into "his book"
"The Dilemna of Foreign Missions."
vpw claimed that his entre into things all over India was the result of
some miraculous healing he performed. The truth is that Dr Williams opened
all the doors- as Mrs W's account clearly stated in her book.
vpw told us all that it was all because he supposedly was standing on the
back of a train as it was preparing to pull out, and there was a man with
a withered arm there, who was not a Christian. He asked the man if he wanted
vpw to pray for him and if he believed he would be healed if vpw prayed for him.
The man supposedly replied 'yes' to both, but was clear he did not believe in
Jesus. vpw supposedly prayed and the man received a miracle of healing, his arm
suddenly becoming whole and strong in a few seconds, just as the train was pulling
out. Supposedly, vpw was shouting to him about him receiving his healing in the
name of Jesus. Then someone came up to vpw on the train, said he was representing
some official who saw the entire incident that happened back there, and was
responding to such a healing, gave him the keys to his city, and said the doors
to "the East" would always be open to him as a result.
Mrs W's account of the train incident said he was asked to perform a special
blessing for the people there, Christian and non, and he prayed publickly.
Then a man came up on the train and said he represented an official who saw
the prayer, and was impressed a Christian minister would pray for non-Christians.
Later, Dr Williams arranged for vpw to get a key to a city and speak at the
convention.
Mrs W's account skips this entire supposed miracle. No surprise, since a poster
who knew her and saw her notes said there was no such miracle in her notes of the
time.
The entire supposed incident was ridiculous, and cinematic. vpw supposedly is on
the back of a train, and is permitted to hang off the back as it's prepared to
move, and a crowd is allowed to surround the back of the train. As the train begins
to pull out, vpw is in physical contact with someone on the ground, and the train
is beginning regardless. Furthermore, he's with NO support, standing at the back
of a train, bent over the back as it's moving, and he is immune to the laws of inertia
and general physics because he's shouting slogans rather than struggling to stay
onboard a train.
So he obviously lied about what happened, and Mrs W refused to include that lie in
her notes and in her book.
An interesting side-note is that one poster who knew her claimed she pointed to a man
in photos and said that was the man- but there's no such account in her notes and her
OFFICIAL accout of what happened skipped over it. Does that mean she told ONE person
the truth, and hid the truth from the rest-who wanted to believe it?
Or did she lie to one person and tell the truth to everyone else even though it would
have been easier to just give the lie they expected?
I think we all would draw the same conclusions.
=================================
Some threads that touched on this:
wierwille's stories in pfal
The Indian that was healed on the train by VP
Keys to the city
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
WW, that's not quite what this particular thread is about. That topic has been discussed many times.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Go easy on us newcomers. I usually have crappy luck with the search feature and this is the first time I read the different accounts between Mrs. WW and Victoid.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.