Thanks for the update, I will read this a little later. As always, I appreciate your efforts in exposing Wierwille and his group. It has gone a long ways in freeing my from the clutches of this cult.
Interesting that in the many years I was in TWI I heard about this paper but was never given the opportunity to read it. One would think that a paper that had such ramifications as this one purported to have would have been printed and carried in their bookstore. Maybe it was too much of a rant. Or maybe, as John points out, Wierwille became what he ranted against and his own paper would have exposed this.
Yes, Wierwille was boisterous when he was the rebel, the reformer, the anti-establishmentist [is that a word?]. Maybe this is why he resonated with the hippies. But when he set up his own establishment there was no toleration for rebels or reformers to his way.
He describes the missionaries as “domineering” with “inflated egos” makeing “slaves” “native stooges” and “yes-men” out of those they dominate. He says that if Indians are not totally submissive, missionaries “harass…. Recapture… persecute… annihilate” them. Is this not an apt description of TWI?
He describes the missionaries as “domineering” with “inflated egos” makeing “slaves” “native stooges” and “yes-men” out of those they dominate. He says that if Indians are not totally submissive, missionaries “harass…. Recapture… persecute… annihilate” them. Is this not an apt description of TWI?
I thought exactly the same thing, Pat. A perfect description of TWI.
And I wonder how much of this thought about missionaries was reflected in the WOW program? And now in the WD program?
Let me see if I've got this straight. Wierwille leveled vitriolic accusations against missionary programs with which he had no direct connection or authority. Then, he went on to create his own missionary program (W.O.W.), which was nothing more than a veiled excuse to promote his own products. Wasn't it he, himself, who was fond of saying that when you point a finger at someone, there are three pointing back at you?
VP criticized missionaries for doing good works, like helping the poor (there were many in India) through agricultural and other projects.
Regardless of what he may have said about love, VP was certainly short on works of compassion, especially for people who were not his followers. Besides being a shortage of Christian character, this is also due to his teaching on believing. If people have a bad life, it's because of their negative believing, and all they need to do to fix it is to start positive believing. It's a lot easier to just tell needy people to believe right than to help them.
If VP had told Jesus' story of the good Samaritan, he would have added a fourth person passing by the injured man who would become the hero. He would tell the half-dead guy that his believing had got him into that mess and he'd better starting believing for healing and for money to get down the road and rent a room at the inn.
VP criticized missionaries for doing good works, like helping the poor (there were many in India) through agricultural and other projects.
Regardless of what he may have said about love, VP was certainly short on works of compassion, especially for people who were not his followers. Besides being a shortage of Christian character, this is also due to his teaching on believing. If people have a bad life, it's because of their negative believing, and all they need to do to fix it is to start positive believing. It's a lot easier to just tell needy people to believe right than to help them.
Here and there VP had some good thoughts. He was right that churches in places like India should become self-governing and self-propogating. He said the Bible was God's accurate Word.
But VP had a knack for taking the germ of something good and twisting and perverting it into something destructive and self-serving. When Midas touched things, he turned them into gold. When VP touched things, he turned them into arsenic.
Here and there VP had some good thoughts. He was right that churches in places like India should become self-governing and self-propogating. He said the Bible was God's accurate Word.
But VP had a knack for taking the germ of something good and twisting and perverting it into something destructive and self-serving. When Midas touched things, he turned them into gold. When VP touched things, he turned them into arsenic.
Well....I can't speak of whether VP had "some good thoughts" but what I would say is wierwille was an OPPORTUNIST.
Since exiting twi and drawing back the curtain on wierwille's life......I haven't found any indication of him
volunteering for missionary work, charitable work, homeless or prison outreach, etc.
When wierwille went to India......he was propped in front of church groups, the Hindu convention, dignitaries by
Dr. I.S. Williams. It was Williams who OPENED all the doors for wierwille to speak. And, when wierwille left India
he "designated" Williams to continue to oversee his (vp's) work.....of which, Williams did NOT accept.
Wierwille plagairized wholesale from his mentors and dropped names liberally....to climb upward. After finally, getting
off the Van Wert Church payroll (August, 1957).....wierwille started making arrangements to get back to his dad's farm.
Twi was built on the backs of thousands of youth who NO LONGER want anything to do with it.
Whether one wants to call it a MLM scam or a religious cult......twi was NOT what it purported to be.
Well....I can't speak of whether VP had "some good thoughts" but what I would say is wierwille was an OPPORTUNIST.
True. But I would have to agree that Wierwille wasn't all bad all the time. Somewhere in his life he did something right. Too bad that is so overshadowed by the things he did wrong. But in all fairness, and as one of his critics, I have to give credit to him when and where it is due. Given his track record I seldom have occasion.
Here and there VP had some good thoughts. He was right that churches in places like India should become self-governing and self-propogating. He said the Bible was God's accurate Word.
But VP had a knack for taking the germ of something good and twisting and perverting it into something destructive and self-serving. When Midas touched things, he turned them into gold. When VP touched things, he turned them into arsenic.
I think that good he had a knack of twisting and perverting is what made it so dangerous. There was truth and good in it. But as a whole it was an evil sordid mess that ensnared good people.
i'm going to sound like a wayfer but he taught us something along the lines that the devil would always have some good in his evil; otherwise, we wouldn't buy it
i'm going to sound like a wayfer but he taught us something along the lines that the devil would always have some good in his evil; otherwise, we wouldn't buy it
V.P. Wierwille wrote an article titled The Dilemma of Foreign Missions in India after a trip there in 1955. He considered it to be a unique and visionary assessment of mission work in India, and criticized those in his church body who objected to it.
Today Wierwille's article is used to attack not only Christian missionaries and church bodies, but also all of Christianity. The publisher, Hindu Writer's [sic] Forum of New Delhi, bookends the article with quotes calling the Bible "barbarous" and Christianity "extremely wicked" and perverse. Why is Wierwille's article considered an attack against Christianity?
The new article "Wierwille's Attack on Christian Missionaries" gives an overview of the extremist nature of VP's article. It can be found at the "New" tab in www.abouttheway.org
If you want to say this, John, let's have it accurately.
Hindu Writers' Forum is a lobby group that appears to be anti-everything and about as fundy as VPW himself.
However, HWF itself publishes Dilemma. So that it can knock it down, presumably, as otherwise the book would not be available at all.
I did find this link: Dead critic - a supposed letter to an unnamed recipient ("me" - but in a personal capacity, or as representing an organization? "Last Days Harvest Ministries"?) from a writer, Mr. Brahm Dutt Bharti, who passed away on 19.5.1997 (that's 15 years ago, so if this is what John is referring to, it's not really new news).
John's initial post on this thread appears to be provocative and unsubstantiated - misinformation about misinformation about misinformation.
i'm going to sound like a wayfer but he taught us something along the lines that the devil would always have some good in his evil; otherwise, we wouldn't buy it
i hope you get the gist
:)
BINGO
The man learned the manipulative side.....wanting to be the man who signals to his minions with "a wink and a nod."
He took pleasure in seeing his plebs jump at his commands and only emboldened him to greater narcisstic thresholds.
In my opinion, with all of wierwille's flaws.....he could have instilled "a much greater legacy" had he seen AND unleashed
the 1979/80 Word in Culture movement with God-inspired gifts from artist to orchestra to craftsman to writer. Believers
with God-centered strength and inspiration could have been a tsunami in a "self-governing" twi. In contrast, the legalism
and heavy-handed leaders demoralized and oppressed the populace. What could have been.........NEVER WAS. <_<
When wierwille went to India......he was propped in front of church groups, the Hindu convention, dignitaries by
Dr. I.S. Williams. It was Williams who OPENED all the doors for wierwille to speak.
Most likely williams opened doors for vpw so that he could use vp as his puppet. They could show off an American who was spouting the same anti-colonial line many Indians were using. VP was getting fed a line and used and didn't know it. I'm sure it stroked his ego to be the lone voice of "truth" over "tradition."
If you want to say this, John, let's have it accurately.
Hindu Writers' Forum is a lobby group that appears to be anti-everything and about as fundy as VPW himself.
However, HWF itself publishes Dilemma. So that it can knock it down, presumably, as otherwise the book would not be available at all.
John's initial post on this thread appears to be provocative and unsubstantiated - misinformation about misinformation about misinformation.
I think you're missing part of how Hindu Writers Forum is using VP. It's true that HWF is knocking a part of Dilemma- namely that VP believes in the supremacy of Christianity (I mention this in my article). However, they see him as attacking all Christian missionary movements in India, just as HWF does. The idea is largely to use VP as a "hostile" Christian source as part of HWF's attack on Christianity. HWF thinks it's great that a "Christian" like VPW can be used to attack Christian missionaries. If HWF only wanted to knock down VP, they would have just selectively quoted him.
I did not say that HWF published Dilemma recently, but the fact that they did reprint vpw is probably news to most everyone at greasespotcafe.
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OldSkool
Thanks for the update, I will read this a little later. As always, I appreciate your efforts in exposing Wierwille and his group. It has gone a long ways in freeing my from the clutches of this cult.
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PatAnswer
Interesting that in the many years I was in TWI I heard about this paper but was never given the opportunity to read it. One would think that a paper that had such ramifications as this one purported to have would have been printed and carried in their bookstore. Maybe it was too much of a rant. Or maybe, as John points out, Wierwille became what he ranted against and his own paper would have exposed this.
Yes, Wierwille was boisterous when he was the rebel, the reformer, the anti-establishmentist [is that a word?]. Maybe this is why he resonated with the hippies. But when he set up his own establishment there was no toleration for rebels or reformers to his way.
He describes the missionaries as “domineering” with “inflated egos” makeing “slaves” “native stooges” and “yes-men” out of those they dominate. He says that if Indians are not totally submissive, missionaries “harass…. Recapture… persecute… annihilate” them. Is this not an apt description of TWI?
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JavaJane
I thought exactly the same thing, Pat. A perfect description of TWI.
And I wonder how much of this thought about missionaries was reflected in the WOW program? And now in the WD program?
Hypocrisy, much?
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waysider
Let me see if I've got this straight. Wierwille leveled vitriolic accusations against missionary programs with which he had no direct connection or authority. Then, he went on to create his own missionary program (W.O.W.), which was nothing more than a veiled excuse to promote his own products. Wasn't it he, himself, who was fond of saying that when you point a finger at someone, there are three pointing back at you?
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skyrider
The wierwille legacy is one big boisterous, fraudulent DECEPTION OF LIES.
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WordWolf
Why should it be a surprise?
vpw claimed he did research, then wrote a book.
The truth was that he plagiarized the extremist claims of others,
made a presentation doing that, then later had someone transcribe
that into a book.
That's all right out of his standard playbook-
1) claim to research- but plagiarize (pfal)
2) plagiarize wild, extremist claims but hide your sources (like his screeds lifted
from the John Birch Society, the claims the Jews were not the Jews, that
the Holocaust was exaggerated...)
3) make a presentation, then have someone transcribe it and later claim
you wrote a book. (The "Studies in Abundant Living".)
(That's the "lazy way" to "write" a book, and any minister or regular presenter
can "produce" books regularly that way.)
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waysider
I just hope those folks in Jubbulpore don't ask for the key to the city back. I mean, how embarrassing would that be?
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johnj
VP criticized missionaries for doing good works, like helping the poor (there were many in India) through agricultural and other projects.
Regardless of what he may have said about love, VP was certainly short on works of compassion, especially for people who were not his followers. Besides being a shortage of Christian character, this is also due to his teaching on believing. If people have a bad life, it's because of their negative believing, and all they need to do to fix it is to start positive believing. It's a lot easier to just tell needy people to believe right than to help them.
If VP had told Jesus' story of the good Samaritan, he would have added a fourth person passing by the injured man who would become the hero. He would tell the half-dead guy that his believing had got him into that mess and he'd better starting believing for healing and for money to get down the road and rent a room at the inn.
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waysider
But, not before he "abundantly shares", dontcha know?
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Rejoice
Sounds like most of the offshoots...
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OldSkool
Well, in a very real sense, the way international is an offshoot of B.G. Leonard and others.
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excathedra
jj, i beg to differ just a little. he was short on compassion to people who were his followers, including me
thanks
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johnj
Here and there VP had some good thoughts. He was right that churches in places like India should become self-governing and self-propogating. He said the Bible was God's accurate Word.
But VP had a knack for taking the germ of something good and twisting and perverting it into something destructive and self-serving. When Midas touched things, he turned them into gold. When VP touched things, he turned them into arsenic.
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skyrider
Well....I can't speak of whether VP had "some good thoughts" but what I would say is wierwille was an OPPORTUNIST.
Since exiting twi and drawing back the curtain on wierwille's life......I haven't found any indication of him
volunteering for missionary work, charitable work, homeless or prison outreach, etc.
When wierwille went to India......he was propped in front of church groups, the Hindu convention, dignitaries by
Dr. I.S. Williams. It was Williams who OPENED all the doors for wierwille to speak. And, when wierwille left India
he "designated" Williams to continue to oversee his (vp's) work.....of which, Williams did NOT accept.
Wierwille plagairized wholesale from his mentors and dropped names liberally....to climb upward. After finally, getting
off the Van Wert Church payroll (August, 1957).....wierwille started making arrangements to get back to his dad's farm.
Twi was built on the backs of thousands of youth who NO LONGER want anything to do with it.
Whether one wants to call it a MLM scam or a religious cult......twi was NOT what it purported to be.
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OldSkool
True. But I would have to agree that Wierwille wasn't all bad all the time. Somewhere in his life he did something right. Too bad that is so overshadowed by the things he did wrong. But in all fairness, and as one of his critics, I have to give credit to him when and where it is due. Given his track record I seldom have occasion.
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JavaJane
I think that good he had a knack of twisting and perverting is what made it so dangerous. There was truth and good in it. But as a whole it was an evil sordid mess that ensnared good people.
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OldSkool
Yep. And sad to say VPW used it as bait for the unsuspecting soul. TWI still does this very thing.
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excathedra
i'm going to sound like a wayfer but he taught us something along the lines that the devil would always have some good in his evil; otherwise, we wouldn't buy it
i hope you get the gist
:)
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OldSkool
Hung by his own words?
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Twinky
If you want to say this, John, let's have it accurately.
Hindu Writers' Forum is a lobby group that appears to be anti-everything and about as fundy as VPW himself.
However, HWF itself publishes Dilemma. So that it can knock it down, presumably, as otherwise the book would not be available at all.
I did find this link: Dead critic - a supposed letter to an unnamed recipient ("me" - but in a personal capacity, or as representing an organization? "Last Days Harvest Ministries"?) from a writer, Mr. Brahm Dutt Bharti, who passed away on 19.5.1997 (that's 15 years ago, so if this is what John is referring to, it's not really new news).
John's initial post on this thread appears to be provocative and unsubstantiated - misinformation about misinformation about misinformation.
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skyrider
BINGO
The man learned the manipulative side.....wanting to be the man who signals to his minions with "a wink and a nod."
He took pleasure in seeing his plebs jump at his commands and only emboldened him to greater narcisstic thresholds.
In my opinion, with all of wierwille's flaws.....he could have instilled "a much greater legacy" had he seen AND unleashed
the 1979/80 Word in Culture movement with God-inspired gifts from artist to orchestra to craftsman to writer. Believers
with God-centered strength and inspiration could have been a tsunami in a "self-governing" twi. In contrast, the legalism
and heavy-handed leaders demoralized and oppressed the populace. What could have been.........NEVER WAS. <_<
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Steve Lortz
Given who Wierwille was, and what TWI was, what could have been.........NEVER COULD HAVE BEEN!
Love,
Steve
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johnj
Most likely williams opened doors for vpw so that he could use vp as his puppet. They could show off an American who was spouting the same anti-colonial line many Indians were using. VP was getting fed a line and used and didn't know it. I'm sure it stroked his ego to be the lone voice of "truth" over "tradition."
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johnj
I think you're missing part of how Hindu Writers Forum is using VP. It's true that HWF is knocking a part of Dilemma- namely that VP believes in the supremacy of Christianity (I mention this in my article). However, they see him as attacking all Christian missionary movements in India, just as HWF does. The idea is largely to use VP as a "hostile" Christian source as part of HWF's attack on Christianity. HWF thinks it's great that a "Christian" like VPW can be used to attack Christian missionaries. If HWF only wanted to knock down VP, they would have just selectively quoted him.
I did not say that HWF published Dilemma recently, but the fact that they did reprint vpw is probably news to most everyone at greasespotcafe.
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