I believe God communicates with people. However, I desperately tried to get Wierwille's teachings on revelation and healing to work and was met with abject failure. I mean I spent two years engulfed in his writings and worked with many people who had health issues, I desperately worked to get my son healed, and all I ever got in return was disappointment. I had full faith in his teachings and was very enthusiastic. Now I realize the sad truth, his teachings are false. What's worse, I reached out to several clergy to heal my son as well and they could not. I had full faith in them as well.
Did I mention his teachings are false?
In retrospect, and this has been covered around here for years, Wierwille's law of believing gibberish taught us to have faith in our own ability to command the power of God instead of having faith in God. That is the basic problem, reliance on self instead of faith in God. Believing as it's taught by Wierwille is interwoven through all of the advanced class teachings on revelation and impartation.
When VP was due to teach in an area, he sent some of his people out into the community in secret ahead of his teaching to suss out the scene.
Then, when he taught, he could surprise people by pulling all this information out of his "magic" hat. And it looked very impressive when he did it.
Didn't stuff like this happen in that Steve Martin movie "Leap of Faith"??? Flim-flam artist tactics all the way.
On real revelation IMO it isn't that complicated. If you talk to God a lot then He will talk back to you, although with Him rather than a whole lot of chatter, it's just a nugget once in a while, or a lesson. A still small voice.
When VP was due to teach in an area, he sent some of his people out into the community in secret ahead of his teaching to suss out the scene.
Then, when he taught, he could surprise people by pulling all this information out of his "magic" hat. And it looked very impressive when he did it.
Spiritualists have used this technique for a long time. When Wierwille mentioned "Mr. Fletcher" in PFAL, it was a reference to the "spirit guide" of Arthur Ford, a noted spiritualist. It has been documented that Arthur Ford used the technique you describe, Pete, to pull the wool over peoples' eyes.
I had full faith in his teachings and was very enthusiastic. Now I realize the sad truth, his teachings are false. What's worse, I reached out to several clergy to heal my son as well and they could not. I had full faith in them as well.
Did I mention his teachings are false?
Please don't take this wrong, it isn't meant as a critism of you, but of TWI and many other teachers who were never involved in TWI. The I had full faith..."in his; in them"; indicates the problem. We weren't really taught to have faith in God. Instead we had faith in our faith or the faith of others.
I'm not surprised to hear VP might have sent out spies to suss the area. It's an old trick, and one a lot of "ministers" used, not just VP. I have known people who really do hear from God and I have seen some miracles as well. But I have seen a lot of people try to pass off knowledge received on the sly as revelation too.
Please don't take this wrong, it isn't meant as a critism of you, but of TWI and many other teachers who were never involved in TWI. The I had full faith..."in his; in them"; indicates the problem. We weren't really taught to have faith in God. Instead we had faith in our faith or the faith of others.
This is kind of how cults operate, and how cult leaders operate. They put themselves in the middle of the relationship between an individual and God, now all communication has to involve an intermediary.
Get the dumb@$$es out of the middle, and conversations with God actually become enjoyable again.
i know he used a paper we had to write in the corps program. what the heck was it called? oh yeah, "from birth to the corps" and we had to tell all the dark, dirty details of our past. he definitely used those against us -- as if he had revelation. i picture him sitting there going blind (not cuz of his eye :)) reading some of those papers
did i personally honestly see him receive revelation? i don't think so. i will try to think about it some more, but i really don't think so
Well, we shouldn't be afraid any more to confront this type of egotistical thinking. On the other hand, just because it's not revelation that they are receiving doesn't make God any weaker (in my view).
I too had once booked a first class seat on the ego train heading for Ego City (yikes! sound just like VP when I say that! ).
So I don't find it difficult to understand how easy it is for someone to be overtaken by the ego train (or should that be "taken over"?).
And unlike "those who would ride freely on the mystery train", the ego train costs (watch "Fame" if you don't believe me :) ).
I really believe that it has taken a lot of healing to get back on the right track. I can imagine how difficult this is for people if they don't understand why they are sick!
And just imagine the scenario where one ego maniac tries to diagnose the trouble in another ego maniac. They'll just end up justifying one another and passing the blame on to others.
These people weren't merely inept, they were deceitful and malicious. Anyone who still exalts them and openly holds them in high regard should be ashamed of themselves.
as far as I'm concerned, the whole revelation thing was an excuse to throw their considerable weight around without being challenged, or getting a punch in the nose.
as far as I'm concerned, the whole revelation thing was an excuse to throw their considerable weight around without being challenged, or getting a punch in the nose.
This may be, perhaps, one of the hardest parts of being a target of abuse....accepting that it was NOT your fault....The abuser made a choice to abuse you...It's HIS/HER fault, not yours.
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OldSkool
I believe God communicates with people. However, I desperately tried to get Wierwille's teachings on revelation and healing to work and was met with abject failure. I mean I spent two years engulfed in his writings and worked with many people who had health issues, I desperately worked to get my son healed, and all I ever got in return was disappointment. I had full faith in his teachings and was very enthusiastic. Now I realize the sad truth, his teachings are false. What's worse, I reached out to several clergy to heal my son as well and they could not. I had full faith in them as well.
Did I mention his teachings are false?
In retrospect, and this has been covered around here for years, Wierwille's law of believing gibberish taught us to have faith in our own ability to command the power of God instead of having faith in God. That is the basic problem, reliance on self instead of faith in God. Believing as it's taught by Wierwille is interwoven through all of the advanced class teachings on revelation and impartation.
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chockfull
Didn't stuff like this happen in that Steve Martin movie "Leap of Faith"??? Flim-flam artist tactics all the way.
On real revelation IMO it isn't that complicated. If you talk to God a lot then He will talk back to you, although with Him rather than a whole lot of chatter, it's just a nugget once in a while, or a lesson. A still small voice.
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Steve Lortz
Spiritualists have used this technique for a long time. When Wierwille mentioned "Mr. Fletcher" in PFAL, it was a reference to the "spirit guide" of Arthur Ford, a noted spiritualist. It has been documented that Arthur Ford used the technique you describe, Pete, to pull the wool over peoples' eyes.
Love,
Steve
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waysider
There is a popular T.V. show called The Mentalist, that, although fictional, features a character who is well skilled in such techniques.
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Keith
Please don't take this wrong, it isn't meant as a critism of you, but of TWI and many other teachers who were never involved in TWI. The I had full faith..."in his; in them"; indicates the problem. We weren't really taught to have faith in God. Instead we had faith in our faith or the faith of others.
I'm not surprised to hear VP might have sent out spies to suss the area. It's an old trick, and one a lot of "ministers" used, not just VP. I have known people who really do hear from God and I have seen some miracles as well. But I have seen a lot of people try to pass off knowledge received on the sly as revelation too.
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chockfull
This is kind of how cults operate, and how cult leaders operate. They put themselves in the middle of the relationship between an individual and God, now all communication has to involve an intermediary.
Get the dumb@$$es out of the middle, and conversations with God actually become enjoyable again.
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excathedra
it's just downright disgusting, pete
i know he used a paper we had to write in the corps program. what the heck was it called? oh yeah, "from birth to the corps" and we had to tell all the dark, dirty details of our past. he definitely used those against us -- as if he had revelation. i picture him sitting there going blind (not cuz of his eye :)) reading some of those papers
did i personally honestly see him receive revelation? i don't think so. i will try to think about it some more, but i really don't think so
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Pete
Thanks for all your replies.
Well, we shouldn't be afraid any more to confront this type of egotistical thinking. On the other hand, just because it's not revelation that they are receiving doesn't make God any weaker (in my view).
I too had once booked a first class seat on the ego train heading for Ego City (yikes! sound just like VP when I say that!
).
So I don't find it difficult to understand how easy it is for someone to be overtaken by the ego train (or should that be "taken over"?).
And unlike "those who would ride freely on the mystery train", the ego train costs (watch "Fame" if you don't believe me :) ).
I really believe that it has taken a lot of healing to get back on the right track. I can imagine how difficult this is for people if they don't understand why they are sick!
And just imagine the scenario where one ego maniac tries to diagnose the trouble in another ego maniac. They'll just end up justifying one another and passing the blame on to others.
Thanks for letting me have my 2 cents worth!
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waysider
These people weren't merely inept, they were deceitful and malicious. Anyone who still exalts them and openly holds them in high regard should be ashamed of themselves.
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hiway29
as far as I'm concerned, the whole revelation thing was an excuse to throw their considerable weight around without being challenged, or getting a punch in the nose.
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waysider
God told me you would say that.
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excathedra
oh i forgot to mention what kind of dark dirty past does a 18-19 year old have?
jesus, i was referring to being abused
i can't believe i referred to it as dark and dirty -- god damn i didn't do anything wrong
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waysider
This may be, perhaps, one of the hardest parts of being a target of abuse....accepting that it was NOT your fault....The abuser made a choice to abuse you...It's HIS/HER fault, not yours.
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Tzaia
None of it felt "real" at the time. All of it felt forced. Woe to the person who pointed that out.
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