this afternoon i talked to a believer i have known since about 1986. he was a twi fellowship coordinator(i was in his twig) and went way corps. several years ago he decided to split from twi and join an independent group. i talked with him about what you accuse VP of and he was quite shocked. he was close to lcm and vp and said he never heard of such. he did say that maybe VP had some sex back in the free love of the 70's before he became a minister and so what "if" vp did. he hasnt ever ben to greasespot cafe and i had to expalain the forum to him, he has heard of gsf from others. he thinks you guys are probably people working for the adversary. now that guy syas he will never come back to twi and therefore he has no reason to stick up for twi. i have ben talking to some others that were way corps back in the late 70's up to the mid 80's and are still good looking females and they never heard of VP committing adultry and were never approached by VP for sex or had VP look at them in a glaring kind of way. unless some female post her fot and name here along with whos fellowships she was in at the time this accured and others i can contact to verify these allegations i was see all this date rape and adultry stuff for what it is > LIES ! btw my friend was really shocked that women or whoever(men)would accuse VP of drugging them and raping them. he knew John Race and might try to get in contact with him. btw "if" VP did anything wrong THE WORD of GOD says HE is able to deliver them to the uttermost, the "VIOLEST" offender who believes. thats GODS WORD , "BUT" THE WORD also says not to use our freedom as an ocasion to the flesh. i dont believe VP ever rape, date raped , or committed adultry. did VP ever fool around before he got married ? maybe ? i sure did and then is saw what GODS WORD says about humpin out of wedlock.
Your describing naturally occurring severe weather patterns that are normal. Wierwille is quoted as saying (From TWLIL by Whiteside)
Do you see the difference? One occurs naturally while the other was cited as a confirmation of the following supposed conversation with God. Basically, Vic confirmed his chosen man of God status with this story. Put himself on a level playing field with Paul. (same source):
How does this even compare to you witnessing with people from out of town and a summertime thunderstorm versus Wierwille's claim?
By the way. The following claim falls flat because all of Wierwille's works can be traced to contemporary sources. Nevermind the first century Church.
i'm from mississippi. as i stated earlier , the sky is blue the sun is bright and no clouds anywhere. suddenly thet sky turnes black and the wind whips up and the hail and rain start and i have ben driving at times when this accured and sometims had to pull over cause i couldnt see the front of the hood of my car. thats a natural occurance in mississippi. if the temperture were rigth the rain would be snow. when i lived in wyoming it would thunder and lightining at times during a snowstorm, and why cant GOD do something like that for VP ? what about the burning bush and talking donkey ?
How much more of a firsthand account than excathedra or Kristen Skedgell does a person need? Wouldn't a witness to a married, 50 something, "minister" having sex on a motor coach with a young lady in her early twenties be hard to come by anyway? Usually things of this nature happen in private is my point. So throwing out the need for a first hand eye witness is sort of asking the impossible. Not to mention discrediting the victim to excuse Wierwille's indiscretions.
But some people will do whatever they can to postpone their date with reality. I remember being the same way. Take evil actions such as committed by Wierwille, Martindale, and Rosalie (she covered it up) and rationalize them away.
the word says "all" men are liars. there were people that lied about JESUS to Pilot. i'v known of believers to lie. why wasnt this brought up right after it was sais to happen ? who was the young lady ? why were theses accusations brought up after VP died ? over the years some of the people i'v witnessed to have told me all kind of lies about twi that they say a good friend told them. a good lie was the one about everybody in twi being trained in military exercises and that included me. yeah i was accused of getting ready to go to war against the U.S. gov and twi had machines guns and tanks and all sorts of stuff. that was about 1984. just because someone says something happened doesnt mean it did. maybe Skedgell hit on VP and he reproved her and she got ....ed and this is her payback. i met a girl and come to find out she went out with married men. i remenber she had the hots for some married dude and they would go to las vegas on weekends. she wanted to marry him. ever thought that could be the case here ? btw VP died in 1985. twi went through lots of changes. lcm got a big head and threw his life away. lots of false teachers were kicked out. twi isnt VP's ministry just like its not your fathers oldmobile. different leaders. if people want to hold on to whatever happened over 23 years ago thats their free will choice but whats the profit ? its what is happening now that matters.
even more than that, many of us who post here have centered our lives around what VP preached for decades and attempted to live, move, and prosper under his teachings. God has honored our hearts and done things for us in spite of the corruption of the organization. over time we've come face to face with that darkness within the organization, and moved in different directions. in my opinion, those who remain and have been around all have had to "sell out" to rationalize the evil within the org and still support it. i could not justify doing that.
it's not that we don't believe God could pull off phenomena related to the weather. it's that after examining TWI and the fruit of the organization, including the fruit of VP's life in its entirety, it's far more likely something that vp made up in retrospect to try and foster his reputation among the young hippies as "The Teacher" or sole pipeline to the heart of God. it's recorded here on this site vp's organizational freeze out tactics and takeover tactics with the original fellowships in the Groovy Christian eras - both on the West Coast and East Coast with Jimmy Doop and Steve Heefner.
in fact, reading that today, to me it seems much more similar to Joseph Smith's elaborate tale talking to the angel Moroni that founded the Mormons than it does a genuine Christian experience.
you cant takeover a group unless your invited to. i know , i put several rock bands together. about 1993 i put a non christian secular rock band together. me and a guitar player had ben working together. we got a bas player , singer and second guitarist. i was the band leader. i paid the full rent for the rehersal room and had ben renting it for several years so i could practice my drums. no one else ever paid any rent on the room. i got a call from my landlord asking me if i wanted to rent a smaller room. i said no. he said the tall guy(second guitarist) had met with him and told him i was quiting the band and moving out of the room and he was taking over the rental. i told my landlord that wa the first i heard of it. i asked my landlord if he could go and change the locks on the door. he did. i called the secong guitar player and told him to meet me at the room and get his stuff out. he came and got his stuff and was really ....ed. i kicked him out of my band. he tried to takeover my band and it waould have ben one thing if he and everyone had said they wanted a different drummer and got their stuff and moved ouit of my room, BUT it became a different deal when that guitar player tried to kick me out of my room that he never paid any rent on ! the singer and bassplayer quit and me and the guitar player that had ben working together kept playinf together. no one can take over a group or fellowship or anything unless they do it using mobster type force or the people let them. also there are a lot of people that were kicked out of twi for stealing, continued drug use including coming to fellowship with drugs, disrupting , trying to cause trouble by talking crap(a believer tried to turn me against a believer friend) and getting in arguments with the person teaching. i'v met a few believers that were teed off at twi and would show up with picket type signs at hotels where twi was havi ng a public x or something.
and i can make a fone call and find out how much twi has if i want.
no and i dont care how much or how little TWI has. you can call them. i hope the twi bank account continues to grow and they give the full time staff a raise.
You are moving the goal posts. You started by saying that you could call and find out. IRS code governing 501c3 corporations has many specifics regarding financial disclosure. If you were to actually call them they should direct you to someone who could get you copies of the information you request. That's their responsibility by law. But they don't do that. They make available no financial disclosures that I am aware and I was at HQ for nearly a decade and was on the presidents cabinet for a short stint.
If they don't have integrity in the smallest matters then what does that say about them?
Are you frightened to call them? Perhaps a likely scenario if you do is repercussions through the way of the USA down to your local leadership. Perhaps you are scared (rightfully so) of a reproof session. If you are, then what does that say about the organization you support?
It took me a number of years to finally wake up to the fact that the way international is an abusive cult. I too went from thinking all the reports of Wierwille and company's wrongdoings were lies, attacks of the adversary, etc. I've spent a number of years with a Acts 17:11 mindset. I've searched diligently whether these things are so. I have also spent quite a bit of time taking many of their doctrinal teachings to the bible and found that they are not so.
I won't argue with you any further. You have a number of resources to begin your investigation. One thing is for certain. Asking someone that has absolutely no knowledge or what we are talking about versus a host of people that know and can prove what they say is an odd way to verify the claims we are making.
Wierwille's evil and his cult legacy has been exposed and shouted from the rooftops.
The original topic of the thread, I believe, is the shameful fact that each of TWI's splinters seems to have the need for a class or classes, and that they charge money for them.
There isn't anything wrong with charging money for a class. I'm currently paying through the nose for classes at the seminary where I am working on a bona fide masters degree in theology.
There is something VERY wrong with judging the quality of a person's faith by the classes they have completed, and something especially nasty about charging money for THAT!
Paul WORKED a job! and preached on the side! He didn't make a living by selling the good news. Unfortunately, too many of Wierwille's followers see "ministry" as a way of making a living.
What's worse is that Power For Abundant Living and all the classes it spawned are worth LESS than having no class at all. If you haven't had a class, you know you are ignorant. If you've taken PFAL, et al., then you think you already know everything you need to know, when in truth, we were sold a line of BS that makes the Bible even MORE difficult to understand.
Just my two cents' worth, which is a very reasonable fee for the amount of wisdom in this post
The original topic of the thread, I believe, is the shameful fact that each of TWI's splinters seems to have the need for a class or classes, and that they charge money for them.
There isn't anything wrong with charging money for a class. I'm currently paying through the nose for classes at the seminary where I am working on a bona fide masters degree in theology.
There is something VERY wrong with judging the quality of a person's faith by the classes they have completed, and something especially nasty about charging money for THAT!
Paul WORKED a job! and preached on the side! He didn't make a living by selling the good news. Unfortunately, too many of Wierwille's followers see "ministry" as a way of making a living.
this afternoon i talked to a believer i have known since about 1986. he was a twi fellowship coordinator(i was in his twig) and went way corps. several years ago he decided to split from twi and join an independent group. i talked with him about what you accuse VP of and he was quite shocked. he was close to lcm and vp and said he never heard of such. he did say that maybe VP had some sex back in the free love of the 70's before he became a minister and so what "if" vp did. he hasnt ever ben to greasespot cafe and i had to expalain the forum to him, he has heard of gsf from others. he thinks you guys are probably people working for the adversary. now that guy syas he will never come back to twi and therefore he has no reason to stick up for twi. i have ben talking to some others that were way corps back in the late 70's up to the mid 80's and are still good looking females and they never heard of VP committing adultry and were never approached by VP for sex or had VP look at them in a glaring kind of way. unless some female post her fot and name here along with whos fellowships she was in at the time this accured and others i can contact to verify these allegations i was see all this date rape and adultry stuff for what it is > LIES ! btw my friend was really shocked that women or whoever(men)would accuse VP of drugging them and raping them. he knew John Race and might try to get in contact with him. btw "if" VP did anything wrong THE WORD of GOD says HE is able to deliver them to the uttermost, the "VIOLEST" offender who believes. thats GODS WORD , "BUT" THE WORD also says not to use our freedom as an ocasion to the flesh. i dont believe VP ever rape, date raped , or committed adultry. did VP ever fool around before he got married ? maybe ? i sure did and then is saw what GODS WORD says about humpin out of wedlock.
you know, the guy you talked to doesn't have that different of a story than I do. I never heard one inkling of sexual indiscretions or what went on in the "initiated" circles up until Martindale's first lawsuit. why? maybe because people hide inappropriate behavior? hmmm. even then I toed the party line and rationalized it away. however, over time, more and more things started to not add up. Martindale, in the "VP and Me" teachings that were taught in the Corps, talked about how VP had told him he needs to "loosen up" in the sexual areas if he ever wanted to be an effective minister. I listed to Ralph Dubovsky's sharing (which is still available to hear on Greasespot Radio), where he told truths about the patriarch days and the "yak twig" consisting of all of the BOD, where it was open knowledge that some women were passed around that circle for sex. I personally talked with a couple of Wierwille's grandchildren and learned that growing up they were raised with the teaching that men would run around on their spouses. I read Kristen Skedgell's book "Losing the Way". Martindale learned his behavior. He was the perfect imitator, which was why he succeeded the presidency - Wierwille said that publicly many times. Martindale learned to be a sexual predator. Also, VP would prey upon young women who he knew had sexual abuse in their backgrounds. It was quite obvious he viewed himself as their savior and thought that having sex with him was supposed to heal them. this was a delusional vision of VP that caused acts furthering the adversary's motives.
oh, another point of logic. VP was married back in his college days. this is documented in Mrs. W's book "Born Again to Serve". the hippie days in the '70's were long after that. VP already had 5 children by that point. so no, sexual relations he had in the 70's in the "free love" movement were adultery according to the Bible. Oh, and now that we're talking about adultery, one more point. A guy who currently runs an offshoot wrote a research paper as a member of the research department which you can find on this site. it basically is a fundamental word study on the word "adultery" throughout the Bible - not rocket science by any means. He was fired for presenting this research by Wierwille. so the picture starts to emerge of a megalomaniac who sins and destroys anyone who confronts him on it.
with your friend it certainly is a common knee-jerk reaction when people present uncomfortable truths to react by saying they work for the adversary. i don't post here out of a love for the adversary. in contrast, i post here to keep people from being sucked into a damaging cult and waste years of their lives building on a false organization. Paul said you cannot build a foundation except upon Jesus Christ, the chief cornerstone. well, all this hidden sin, predation, and garbage is not a foundation you can build upon. you can't put new wine into old wineskins. neither can you build a godly organization on the shoulders of people who are corrupt.
yes, God can deliver anyone from any sin. however, a man who is supposed to be a minister? who continually chooses evil acts and preys upon his followers? it's the man's continual choices he made that seared his conscience, not God's lack of ability to save him.
oh, and one more thing. demands that rape victims post their pictures, personal information, and twig history on the internet just so that your stubborn obnoxious self will believe it is highly delusional, insensitive, and makes you part of the problem not part of the solution. those are the exact same tactics rapists use to put pressure on their victims so they won't testify against them.
"....... one more point. A guy who currently runs an offshoot wrote a research paper as a member of the research department which you can find on this site. it basically is a fundamental word study on the word "adultery" throughout the Bible - not rocket science by any means. He was fired for presenting this research by Wierwille."
"....... one more point. A guy who currently runs an offshoot wrote a research paper as a member of the research department which you can find on this site. it basically is a fundamental word study on the word "adultery" throughout the Bible - not rocket science by any means. He was fired for presenting this research by Wierwille."
I first read Schoenheit's paper in the spring of 1987. I didn't find the research on "adultery" surprising, just a well-worked study on the topic. What blew me away were the fourteen appendices, where Schoenheit used the Scriptures to rip apart fourteen of the sorriest excuses ever made to rationalize sin, excuses that originated with Wierwille himself.
What blew me away were the fourteen appendices, where Schoenheit used the Scriptures to rip apart fourteen of the sorriest excuses ever made to rationalize sin, excuses that originated with Wierwille himself.
Love,
Steve
No wonder he got fired.
But Wierwille was supposed to have the integrity to accept the Bible's instructions.
About a year later, in early 1986, G33r read The Passing of a Patriarch on a Corps night. Everything was in confusion. Everyone was thinking "What can we do to set things straight?"
In the summer of '86, Schoenheit started working on his paper on adultery. In January or February of 1987, the Trustees fired EVERYBODY who had received a copy of Schoenheit's paper, including the Limb Coordinator of Indiana, where I was located at the time. That's also when Lynn, at Washington D.C., was fired.
The ex-LC of Indiana made copies of Schoenheit's paper available to anybody who wanted a copy. Later on, when I saw John S. face-to-face (I had known him for several years), I asked him if the copy I had was a true copy, and he said that it was. It was the same as the copy posted here at GSC.
Wierwille had been dead for over a year, nearly two, before Schoenheit's paper was "published". The existence of Schoenheit's paper, and what it was about, were kept strictly hush-hush within TWI. You were judged to be possessed by devil spirits simply for asking about it.
How sad it is that Schoenheit is still committed to Wierwille's BS about "the Administration of the Sacred Secret" and continues to ignore what's actually written in the Bible about the Lord Jesus Christ and the New Covenant (those things aren't addressed to the Church in this wonderful Age of Grace, you know).
You are moving the goal posts. You started by saying that you could call and find out. IRS code governing 501c3 corporations has many specifics regarding financial disclosure. If you were to actually call them they should direct you to someone who could get you copies of the information you request. That's their responsibility by law. But they don't do that. They make available no financial disclosures that I am aware and I was at HQ for nearly a decade and was on the presidents cabinet for a short stint.
If they don't have integrity in the smallest matters then what does that say about them?
Are you frightened to call them? Perhaps a likely scenario if you do is repercussions through the way of the USA down to your local leadership. Perhaps you are scared (rightfully so) of a reproof session. If you are, then what does that say about the organization you support?
It took me a number of years to finally wake up to the fact that the way international is an abusive cult. I too went from thinking all the reports of Wierwille and company's wrongdoings were lies, attacks of the adversary, etc. I've spent a number of years with a Acts 17:11 mindset. I've searched diligently whether these things are so. I have also spent quite a bit of time taking many of their doctrinal teachings to the bible and found that they are not so.
I won't argue with you any further. You have a number of resources to begin your investigation. One thing is for certain. Asking someone that has absolutely no knowledge or what we are talking about versus a host of people that know and can prove what they say is an odd way to verify the claims we are making.
Wierwille's evil and his cult legacy has been exposed and shouted from the rooftops.
no i'm not moving the goal post. no i'm not a frighted to call twi. I JUST DONT GIVE A SH&&T how much money twi has in the bank. i dont f n care to put it bluntly. saying "i could" didnt mean i was gonna. again i dont care if twi has > see picture !
It should matter to you. Not how much money TWI has, but that they have integrity in following their 501c3 requirements by reporting what they do with donations. But I don't really care either. I already have come to realize there is nothing charitable about TWI. Giving them money is akin to tossing it into a black hole.
I'm all into pictures. This one aptly describes someone who has been told of TWI's wrong doings but refuses to investigate the claims. > see picture!
I often wonder why some people who "don't give a ...." seem to have so much to say.
To put up with TWI's corruption you have to not give a dang. It's really the only way. Ignore or justify the evil. Blame the victims. Excuse Wierwille and company's predations and other evils. Imagine that Wierwille is on par with the apostle Paul, as if Wierwille were a chosen vessel for God and God confirmed it all with a snow storm. And of course any dissenting voices are just lies and we are all working for the adversary.
Folks, Shiftthis has been a member here since May 2008 - but he has been a part of TWI for many decades.
He's made only 131 posts (as at today) so maybe he doesn't come here often, even as a lurker.
He hangs out with innies, with splinter groups... nuff said.
Remember how long it took you, once you made the decision to leave, to start to clear your brain of the treacle coursing through its folds.
And once you found this place, maybe you were so revolted by what you read that you couldn't believe it either.
Be patient with Shiftthis. Eventually he might "get there." Or "get it." Or something. His critical thinking skills are shot to pieces; might not have been brilliant to start with. There's no instant fix for Waybrain.
Hey, got an idea.
(calls to off-stage) Paw, how about charging for GSC 101 - Power for Abundant Listening?
Followed by an Intermediate class in Empathy & Compassion?
the main objection I have to STFI, or any other offshoot charging for classes, is they are charging or accepting a "donation" for twice-stolen material.
For the most part, anyway. It would be not unlike selling an aged, yet stolen motor vehicle. One carefully refurbishes it, paints it a different color.. changes a little of the vocabulary, slightly restructures the order the material is presented.. paints over the title and names it Living in god's power, or something sorta like that.
It's still a stolen vehicle.
"Acquired" from a previous "owner" who "acquired" it the same way..
wanna buy a good used seminar?
Title? Who needs a title..
The sad part of this is that "pfal" is essentially their bread and butter.
the main objection I have to STFI, or any other offshoot charging for classes, is they are charging or accepting a "donation" for twice-stolen material.
For the most part, anyway. It would be not unlike selling an aged, yet stolen motor vehicle. One carefully refurbishes it, paints it a different color.. changes a little of the vocabulary, slightly restructures the order the material is presented.. paints over the title and names it Living in god's power, or something sorta like that.
It's still a stolen vehicle.
"Acquired" from a previous "owner" who "acquired" it the same way..
wanna buy a good used seminar?
Title? Who needs a title..
The sad part of this is that "pfal" is essentially their bread and butter.
great reply and right on. around 1992? i knew a guy that said he had stolen the pfal class tpaes. the offshoots out here were charging people for the class. i'v met a few people over the years that were witnessed to by folks in the independent fellowships and took VP's pfal class. they wernt very happey to learn that those tapes were stolen,copied and passed around. stealing is stealing. if the independents want to run classes they should make thier own. did you guys hear about the guy that was reunited with his stolen MG after about 40 years ? those tapes are still the property of twi. THE WORD says one of the devils traits is to steal.
THE WORD says one of the devils traits is to steal.
The PFAL class, itself, was stolen (yes, I said stolen.) from B.G. Leonard and later expanded with works from people such as Bullinger, Stiles, Kenyon and so on. Where does that leave us if the root source (PFAL) was corrupted to begin with?
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Steve Lortz
Well, I went to the TLTF website and found out about their "The End Times" seminar (!?!), eight 40-minute segments on dispensationalism. I just finished two semesters of Constructive Theology, in w
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I think you hit the nail on the head, OldSkool, when you used the phrase "extreme highmindedness". Romans 11:20 says "Be not highminded, but fear:" Wierwille expressly taught in foundational PFAL tha
Steve Lortz
I've been giving this some more thought. After I took Power for Abundant Living, I thought that I was a better Christian. Whether or not I really was is something for the Lord Jesus Christ to judge,
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shiftthis
this afternoon i talked to a believer i have known since about 1986. he was a twi fellowship coordinator(i was in his twig) and went way corps. several years ago he decided to split from twi and join an independent group. i talked with him about what you accuse VP of and he was quite shocked. he was close to lcm and vp and said he never heard of such. he did say that maybe VP had some sex back in the free love of the 70's before he became a minister and so what "if" vp did. he hasnt ever ben to greasespot cafe and i had to expalain the forum to him, he has heard of gsf from others. he thinks you guys are probably people working for the adversary. now that guy syas he will never come back to twi and therefore he has no reason to stick up for twi. i have ben talking to some others that were way corps back in the late 70's up to the mid 80's and are still good looking females and they never heard of VP committing adultry and were never approached by VP for sex or had VP look at them in a glaring kind of way. unless some female post her fot and name here along with whos fellowships she was in at the time this accured and others i can contact to verify these allegations i was see all this date rape and adultry stuff for what it is > LIES ! btw my friend was really shocked that women or whoever(men)would accuse VP of drugging them and raping them. he knew John Race and might try to get in contact with him. btw "if" VP did anything wrong THE WORD of GOD says HE is able to deliver them to the uttermost, the "VIOLEST" offender who believes. thats GODS WORD , "BUT" THE WORD also says not to use our freedom as an ocasion to the flesh. i dont believe VP ever rape, date raped , or committed adultry. did VP ever fool around before he got married ? maybe ? i sure did and then is saw what GODS WORD says about humpin out of wedlock.
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the word says "all" men are liars. there were people that lied about JESUS to Pilot. i'v known of believers to lie. why wasnt this brought up right after it was sais to happen ? who was the young lady ? why were theses accusations brought up after VP died ? over the years some of the people i'v witnessed to have told me all kind of lies about twi that they say a good friend told them. a good lie was the one about everybody in twi being trained in military exercises and that included me. yeah i was accused of getting ready to go to war against the U.S. gov and twi had machines guns and tanks and all sorts of stuff. that was about 1984. just because someone says something happened doesnt mean it did. maybe Skedgell hit on VP and he reproved her and she got ....ed and this is her payback. i met a girl and come to find out she went out with married men. i remenber she had the hots for some married dude and they would go to las vegas on weekends. she wanted to marry him. ever thought that could be the case here ? btw VP died in 1985. twi went through lots of changes. lcm got a big head and threw his life away. lots of false teachers were kicked out. twi isnt VP's ministry just like its not your fathers oldmobile. different leaders. if people want to hold on to whatever happened over 23 years ago thats their free will choice but whats the profit ? its what is happening now that matters.
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waysider
Jeffrey Dahmer didn't eat everyone he met. Does that means he wasn't a cannibal?
.............................................
You want names and specifics? You apparently ignored my suggestion to read Losing The Way.
(It appears you may be a bit new to computer usage. So, what you need to do is click on the book title I colored blue.)
...............................................
"...he did say that maybe VP had some sex back in the free love of the 70's before he became a minister."
Wierwille became a minister in the 1940's. What does that suggest to you?
...........................
BTW...This isn't a court of law. No one has to "prove" anything to you. You can simply choose not to believe. That's your prerogative.
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OldSkool
You are moving the goal posts. You started by saying that you could call and find out. IRS code governing 501c3 corporations has many specifics regarding financial disclosure. If you were to actually call them they should direct you to someone who could get you copies of the information you request. That's their responsibility by law. But they don't do that. They make available no financial disclosures that I am aware and I was at HQ for nearly a decade and was on the presidents cabinet for a short stint.
If they don't have integrity in the smallest matters then what does that say about them?
Are you frightened to call them? Perhaps a likely scenario if you do is repercussions through the way of the USA down to your local leadership. Perhaps you are scared (rightfully so) of a reproof session. If you are, then what does that say about the organization you support?
It took me a number of years to finally wake up to the fact that the way international is an abusive cult. I too went from thinking all the reports of Wierwille and company's wrongdoings were lies, attacks of the adversary, etc. I've spent a number of years with a Acts 17:11 mindset. I've searched diligently whether these things are so. I have also spent quite a bit of time taking many of their doctrinal teachings to the bible and found that they are not so.
I won't argue with you any further. You have a number of resources to begin your investigation. One thing is for certain. Asking someone that has absolutely no knowledge or what we are talking about versus a host of people that know and can prove what they say is an odd way to verify the claims we are making.
Wierwille's evil and his cult legacy has been exposed and shouted from the rooftops.
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OldSkool
One more thing. This man has done an amazing amount of research on Wierwille.
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/cultsthe.htm
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Steve Lortz
The original topic of the thread, I believe, is the shameful fact that each of TWI's splinters seems to have the need for a class or classes, and that they charge money for them.
There isn't anything wrong with charging money for a class. I'm currently paying through the nose for classes at the seminary where I am working on a bona fide masters degree in theology.
There is something VERY wrong with judging the quality of a person's faith by the classes they have completed, and something especially nasty about charging money for THAT!
Paul WORKED a job! and preached on the side! He didn't make a living by selling the good news. Unfortunately, too many of Wierwille's followers see "ministry" as a way of making a living.
What's worse is that Power For Abundant Living and all the classes it spawned are worth LESS than having no class at all. If you haven't had a class, you know you are ignorant. If you've taken PFAL, et al., then you think you already know everything you need to know, when in truth, we were sold a line of BS that makes the Bible even MORE difficult to understand.
Just my two cents' worth, which is a very reasonable fee for the amount of wisdom in this post
Love,
Steve
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Rejoice
BINGO!!!
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chockfull
you know, the guy you talked to doesn't have that different of a story than I do. I never heard one inkling of sexual indiscretions or what went on in the "initiated" circles up until Martindale's first lawsuit. why? maybe because people hide inappropriate behavior? hmmm. even then I toed the party line and rationalized it away. however, over time, more and more things started to not add up. Martindale, in the "VP and Me" teachings that were taught in the Corps, talked about how VP had told him he needs to "loosen up" in the sexual areas if he ever wanted to be an effective minister. I listed to Ralph Dubovsky's sharing (which is still available to hear on Greasespot Radio), where he told truths about the patriarch days and the "yak twig" consisting of all of the BOD, where it was open knowledge that some women were passed around that circle for sex. I personally talked with a couple of Wierwille's grandchildren and learned that growing up they were raised with the teaching that men would run around on their spouses. I read Kristen Skedgell's book "Losing the Way". Martindale learned his behavior. He was the perfect imitator, which was why he succeeded the presidency - Wierwille said that publicly many times. Martindale learned to be a sexual predator. Also, VP would prey upon young women who he knew had sexual abuse in their backgrounds. It was quite obvious he viewed himself as their savior and thought that having sex with him was supposed to heal them. this was a delusional vision of VP that caused acts furthering the adversary's motives.
oh, another point of logic. VP was married back in his college days. this is documented in Mrs. W's book "Born Again to Serve". the hippie days in the '70's were long after that. VP already had 5 children by that point. so no, sexual relations he had in the 70's in the "free love" movement were adultery according to the Bible. Oh, and now that we're talking about adultery, one more point. A guy who currently runs an offshoot wrote a research paper as a member of the research department which you can find on this site. it basically is a fundamental word study on the word "adultery" throughout the Bible - not rocket science by any means. He was fired for presenting this research by Wierwille. so the picture starts to emerge of a megalomaniac who sins and destroys anyone who confronts him on it.
with your friend it certainly is a common knee-jerk reaction when people present uncomfortable truths to react by saying they work for the adversary. i don't post here out of a love for the adversary. in contrast, i post here to keep people from being sucked into a damaging cult and waste years of their lives building on a false organization. Paul said you cannot build a foundation except upon Jesus Christ, the chief cornerstone. well, all this hidden sin, predation, and garbage is not a foundation you can build upon. you can't put new wine into old wineskins. neither can you build a godly organization on the shoulders of people who are corrupt.
yes, God can deliver anyone from any sin. however, a man who is supposed to be a minister? who continually chooses evil acts and preys upon his followers? it's the man's continual choices he made that seared his conscience, not God's lack of ability to save him.
oh, and one more thing. demands that rape victims post their pictures, personal information, and twig history on the internet just so that your stubborn obnoxious self will believe it is highly delusional, insensitive, and makes you part of the problem not part of the solution. those are the exact same tactics rapists use to put pressure on their victims so they won't testify against them.
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waysider
"....... one more point. A guy who currently runs an offshoot wrote a research paper as a member of the research department which you can find on this site. it basically is a fundamental word study on the word "adultery" throughout the Bible - not rocket science by any means. He was fired for presenting this research by Wierwille."
HERE it is.
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Steve Lortz
I first read Schoenheit's paper in the spring of 1987. I didn't find the research on "adultery" surprising, just a well-worked study on the topic. What blew me away were the fourteen appendices, where Schoenheit used the Scriptures to rip apart fourteen of the sorriest excuses ever made to rationalize sin, excuses that originated with Wierwille himself.
Love,
Steve
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OldSkool
No wonder he got fired.
But Wierwille was supposed to have the integrity to accept the Bible's instructions.
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Steve Lortz
Wierwille was killed by cancer early in 1985.
About a year later, in early 1986, G33r read The Passing of a Patriarch on a Corps night. Everything was in confusion. Everyone was thinking "What can we do to set things straight?"
In the summer of '86, Schoenheit started working on his paper on adultery. In January or February of 1987, the Trustees fired EVERYBODY who had received a copy of Schoenheit's paper, including the Limb Coordinator of Indiana, where I was located at the time. That's also when Lynn, at Washington D.C., was fired.
The ex-LC of Indiana made copies of Schoenheit's paper available to anybody who wanted a copy. Later on, when I saw John S. face-to-face (I had known him for several years), I asked him if the copy I had was a true copy, and he said that it was. It was the same as the copy posted here at GSC.
Wierwille had been dead for over a year, nearly two, before Schoenheit's paper was "published". The existence of Schoenheit's paper, and what it was about, were kept strictly hush-hush within TWI. You were judged to be possessed by devil spirits simply for asking about it.
How sad it is that Schoenheit is still committed to Wierwille's BS about "the Administration of the Sacred Secret" and continues to ignore what's actually written in the Bible about the Lord Jesus Christ and the New Covenant (those things aren't addressed to the Church in this wonderful Age of Grace, you know).
Love,
Steve
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shiftthis
no i'm not moving the goal post. no i'm not a frighted to call twi. I JUST DONT GIVE A SH&&T how much money twi has in the bank. i dont f n care to put it bluntly. saying "i could" didnt mean i was gonna. again i dont care if twi has > see picture !
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OldSkool
It should matter to you. Not how much money TWI has, but that they have integrity in following their 501c3 requirements by reporting what they do with donations. But I don't really care either. I already have come to realize there is nothing charitable about TWI. Giving them money is akin to tossing it into a black hole.
I'm all into pictures. This one aptly describes someone who has been told of TWI's wrong doings but refuses to investigate the claims. > see picture!
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waysider
I often wonder why some people who "don't give a ...." seem to have so much to say.
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OldSkool
To put up with TWI's corruption you have to not give a dang. It's really the only way. Ignore or justify the evil. Blame the victims. Excuse Wierwille and company's predations and other evils. Imagine that Wierwille is on par with the apostle Paul, as if Wierwille were a chosen vessel for God and God confirmed it all with a snow storm. And of course any dissenting voices are just lies and we are all working for the adversary.
I could continue but it would just be redundant.
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Twinky
Folks, Shiftthis has been a member here since May 2008 - but he has been a part of TWI for many decades.
He's made only 131 posts (as at today) so maybe he doesn't come here often, even as a lurker.
He hangs out with innies, with splinter groups... nuff said.
Remember how long it took you, once you made the decision to leave, to start to clear your brain of the treacle coursing through its folds.
And once you found this place, maybe you were so revolted by what you read that you couldn't believe it either.
Be patient with Shiftthis. Eventually he might "get there." Or "get it." Or something. His critical thinking skills are shot to pieces; might not have been brilliant to start with. There's no instant fix for Waybrain.
Hey, got an idea.
(calls to off-stage) Paw, how about charging for GSC 101 - Power for Abundant Listening?
Followed by an Intermediate class in Empathy & Compassion?
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OldSkool
I want to register and please accept my $200.00 as a token of my double commitment.
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Ham
Charging for classes..
the main objection I have to STFI, or any other offshoot charging for classes, is they are charging or accepting a "donation" for twice-stolen material.
For the most part, anyway. It would be not unlike selling an aged, yet stolen motor vehicle. One carefully refurbishes it, paints it a different color.. changes a little of the vocabulary, slightly restructures the order the material is presented.. paints over the title and names it Living in god's power, or something sorta like that.
It's still a stolen vehicle.
"Acquired" from a previous "owner" who "acquired" it the same way..
wanna buy a good used seminar?
Title? Who needs a title..
The sad part of this is that "pfal" is essentially their bread and butter.
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shiftthis
great reply and right on. around 1992? i knew a guy that said he had stolen the pfal class tpaes. the offshoots out here were charging people for the class. i'v met a few people over the years that were witnessed to by folks in the independent fellowships and took VP's pfal class. they wernt very happey to learn that those tapes were stolen,copied and passed around. stealing is stealing. if the independents want to run classes they should make thier own. did you guys hear about the guy that was reunited with his stolen MG after about 40 years ? those tapes are still the property of twi. THE WORD says one of the devils traits is to steal.
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waysider
The PFAL class, itself, was stolen (yes, I said stolen.) from B.G. Leonard and later expanded with works from people such as Bullinger, Stiles, Kenyon and so on. Where does that leave us if the root source (PFAL) was corrupted to begin with?
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Ham
That's largely what I meant by twice-stolen..
Now it's a refurbished version of a refurbished version..
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