My church has shown Nicky Gumbel's Alpha course several times within the last 12 years, never asked for any donations for materials or food for meals. Not everyone stays for the entire class. We now have added other related materials from church of England, Lutheran, United methodist,etc. After each session, we break up into groups ranging from 5-12 people, allow new folks to ask questions(most have been Christian their entire lives though not necessarily Lutheran or Episcopalian). Some chose to join our congregation, others did not. One was a female Wiccan whose boyfriend was Christian. She completed the class but never has attended any denominational/institutional church, or independent house church/home fellowship/local spiritual assembly and still practices white magic(unfortunately her boyfriend ended up joining her coven). We now include Reality by Michael Green, Open Home/Bible, Christianity Explored, Beginnings-Rob Weber, Christian Believer, Foundations-Thomas Holliday, Powersurge-Michael Foss, etc. No fees for DVD and books, meals, or anything else. Too bad TWI, CFFM, S&TF/CES, TLTF, CR&F, etc. don't offer free classes. Hey, so what if no one shows up?
btw, our chutch purchased the materuals and has it stored there for future use. Can PFAL or WAP make the same claim and say, alright DVD's, books, and meals cost nothing? Doubt it, too much a cash cow
Last I heard, The Way was sitting on about 56 million dollars in assets. (probably somewhat less, given the current state of the economy) They're supposed to be a charitable organization, according to their 501 status. What are they waiting for??
...it is possible for someone to take classes and boast that they are better then others but thats not what TWI promoted.
Were you ever involved in any "grad" activities? After I left TWI I was thoroughly disgusted with all the name-tags and the artificial divisions they promoted in the body of Christ. Grads WERE considered better than the non-grads, even of the foundational class. That was a fundamental assumption for anybody running a class, and I know whereof I write, because I ran my share. I thought we had gotten away from that way of thinking in CES, but one of first horrifying things I saw after Momentus was a return by the leaders of CES to a "grads are better than non-grads" mentality.
The WHOLE motivator behind promoting a class... any class... is that grads will be better than non-grads. That's okay for a course in drumming or auto mechanics, but Christianity is spiritual, and classes are fleshly. The knowledge in PFAL/Intro to God's Heart/Exercising Spiritual Authority/Momentus/etc. DOES NOT edify. It PUFFS UP.
While you were involved with PFAL and TWI, you may well have developed a "better" walk with God, but I submit it was because you were humble to God, and not because of the class. Wierwille stole credit for himself and his class that properly belonged to the Lord Jesus Christ and to God the Father.
Were you ever involved in any "grad" activities? After I left TWI I was thoroughly disgusted with all the name-tags and the artificial divisions they promoted in the body of Christ. Grads WERE considered better than the non-grads, even of the foundational class. That was a fundamental assumption for anybody running a class, and I know whereof I write, because I ran my share. I thought we had gotten away from that way of thinking in CES, but one of first horrifying things I saw after Momentus was a return by the leaders of CES to a "grads are better than non-grads" mentality.
The WHOLE motivator behind promoting a class... any class... is that grads will be better than non-grads. That's okay for a course in drumming or auto mechanics, but Christianity is spiritual, and classes are fleshly. The knowledge in PFAL/Intro to God's Heart/Exercising Spiritual Authority/Momentus/etc. DOES NOT edify. It PUFFS UP.
While you were involved with PFAL and TWI, you may well have developed a "better" walk with God, but I submit it was because you were humble to God, and not because of the class. Wierwille stole credit for himself and his class that properly belonged to the Lord Jesus Christ and to God the Father.
Love,
Steve
going all the way back to febuary 1980 when i first started going to fellowship i never saw any of what you say. hell i had Tom & Barb Lally from 1980-1981 for twig coordinators and again in 1984 as branch coordinators and as big of an &^% hole as Barb was i still never saw what you say about grads vs non grads. btw i wear my advanced class name tag to large meetings at banquet rooms so if someone wants an advanced class grad to pray with them they can find us easy. i'm out to help people, and all i am is a lowly dude that believes GODS word. i dont elevate myself above anyone and that includes unbelievers. when i was new to fellowship and wanted someone to pray with me or for me I "always" looked for the highest leader i could find because i figured they would be the best to pray with. i always looked for Limb coordinator name tags at the rock so i could hang out with them and learn stuff. name tags are great.
Edited by shiftthis
I don't think anyone is really disputing the need to cover business expenses. What has come into question is the motivation involved.
Let me state it another way. When I see all these offshoots springing up and offering new material, I don't see someone saying, "I need to charge for my classes". What I see is someone saying, "I need to have classes I can charge for".
now thats different, yeah that aint right. thats using classes for a business to make money. reminds me of the record in gospels where people were selling second rate offerings so they could make a lot of money. Jesus took care of them, ran em off.
Last I heard, The Way was sitting on about 56 million dollars in assets. (probably somewhat less, given the current state of the economy) They're supposed to be a charitable organization, according to their 501 status. What are they waiting for??
there are full time people that have to be paid, eventually building will need to be renovated and you either pay cash or borrow money, and i can make a fone call and find out how much twi has if i want. last you heard, hell i'v heard a lot of theings about the way that aint true. however twi might have 56 mil in dollars and assetts. The Weirwilles GAVE all their land(the farm) to twi when it was first started and that farm land and all those building alone are worth millions. if people want to give money to twi its there business. my grandmother gave tens of thousands of dollars to the roman catholic church and a lot of that went to pet his azz lawsiut settlements. lot of people gave money to build the crystal cathedral and its gone belly up. you ask what are they waiting for ? what do you mean ? do you think they are suppose to just give it all away to anyone. some of that money came from me over the years. i think they should sit on it.
Ya, but none of these are 501-c3 non-profits that are supposed to be charities, yet never give anything. It's always pay fees and give donations. Care to explain how that is sound practice?
if the ones your refering to arnt a registerd non profit then they have to pay taxes. i see what you mean. if they are a registered non profit they can still charge for classes, it can get complicated. i am putting together an outreach band and we the band members are going to finance the whole thing. we are going to play in parks for free. however if someone wants us to come play in another state we will need money for travel. do we register as a nonprofit or do we take private donations for gas, food , hotel room ? it gets real complicated and i might have to get DOT weight stickers for my f350. we consider the band to be a charity.
I think Wierwille's profit plan was two-fold. In the short term, classes were there to generate an immediate profit. But, that profit doesn't last. Take my own example. I paid $65 to take the foundational class. That $65 didn't go very far. Then, I had to pay to take this class, that class and so on. Again, those fees didn't last. So, the genius of Wierwille's scheme was in the long term profits generated by the ABS, a system that was introduced from the very beginning in PFAL. Yeah, the 65 bucks quickly disappeared but, then I continued to give them my hard earned cash with every paycheck I earned, week after week, month after month, year after year. The class was only a small cog in the money making machine that came to be known as The Way. And, it worked. Wierwille lived like a king...private jet, motorcoaches that he could use for his frequent sexual exploits, fancy motorcycles, expensive hunting and fishing gear, gallons and gallons of booze, expensive hunting and fishing trips..... and the list continues. So much for needs and wants being parallel.
The 2008 report was the last time they had to report assets. It was around 57 million. And the Wierwille farm would hardly be worth millions. They made that money through the business they are engaged in. Selling classes and receiving charitable donations. So what charitable activities are they engaged in? Fellowships are free but the way doesn't provide those. They are provided by volunteers at their own expense. Tithes/ABS are sent to HQ and the money NEVER returns.
I think Wierwille's profit plan was two-fold. In the short term, classes were there to generate an immediate profit. But, that profit doesn't last. Take my own example. I paid $65 to take the foundational class. That $65 didn't go very far. Then, I had to pay to take this class, that class and so on. Again, those fees didn't last. So, the genius of Wierwille's scheme was in the long term profits generated by the ABS, a system that was introduced from the very beginning in PFAL. Yeah, the 65 bucks quickly disappeared but, then I continued to give them my hard earned cash with every paycheck I earned, week after week, month after month, year after year. The class was only a small cog in the money making machine that came to be known as The Way. And, it worked. Wierwille lived like a king...private jet, motorcoaches that he could use for his frequent sexual exploits, fancy motorcycles, expensive hunting and fishing gear, gallons and gallons of booze, expensive hunting and fishing trips..... and the list continues. So much for needs and wants being parallel.
i will give you that benifit of the doubt that you have ben missinformed rather than call you a liar. the way NEVER had a jet. this is a foto of the exact type of plane the way had and its a Convair 240 converted from radial piston engines to turboprop engines. the converted 240 is called a 580. VP had one old bus that had ben converted to a motorcoach and showed up in jackson mississippi in 1980 in it and taught. produve proof of the sexual exploits you accuse him of. it seems its easy to accuse a dead man of stuff cause they arnt around to defend themselves. i never and have never seen or know ANY leader to live high on the hog. and even if they did whats the problem? are you envious ? i wish they would give themselves raises BUT i guess if they did people would get teed off ! i guees its o.k. for an unbeliever president and his family to fly around and go on vactions about every other week at OUR expenxe but if a man of GOD did a fraction of that people raise hell and get teed off. the only fancy motorcycle he had was given to him by Harley Davidson and I was there at the rock of ages when HD gave it to him. a foto of "the twig hopper" as he called it. if you dont want to give why did you give ? no one held a gun to your head and forced you to give. there are , have ben , and will probably always be those that dont tithe. i'm glad VP had nice hunting gear. i used to go hunting and i certainly wouldnt use cheap gear. i dont think you ever went to a way fellowship, it sounds like your just repeating roumors you've heard. this thread started out as a discussion about people charging for classes. i almost no time its turned into a hateful slanderous thing againt TWI and other ministries. i personally know a guy that runs an independent and they aint trying to get rich, he is a cabnet maker.
I wish what you're saying is true but, unfortunately it's not. (Except maybe the part about the plane being a turboprop or whatever). As to proof, there are people (lots of them) here who knew Wierwille on a very up-close and personal level, people who regularly rode on those motorcoaches, rode on the airplane, repaired his twighopper, clandestinely, after he crashed it, women who were "personally violated" after he slipped them date rape drugs. Yes, if it's proof you genuinely want, there is really no shortage of it here in the pages of GSC. You might,also, want to pick up a copy of Losing The Way. You can pick up a Kindle copy for less than ten bucks. Or, you can use the search window to find what you want...
I have to warn you, though, you might find yourself feeling a bit like Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz, when Toto pulled back the curtain, revealing the wizard's hoax.
as for the sexual crimes of Wierwille, too bad the net didn't exist. Personally if VP had lived and all the victims had come forth to file a lawsuit similar to Martindale, "the Teacher" would likely been prosecuted and it is too bad Mrs. wierwille didn't file for divorce. You have not read the reports here on Greasespot. Maybe VPW, Geer, and Martindale should have been pedophiles like Sandrusky or closet homosexuals.
By the way.....you DID know he died from cancer (as did Uncle Harry and Don W.) didn't you? I'm sure, being an advanced class grad, you can see the obvious doctrinal problems that created. Oh, and he had some pretty fine classic cars, too. (I rode in the convertible, for whatever that's worth.)
Picture this. You’re on a cruise ship sailing through the Caribbean. The weather is balmy, bright afternoon sunshine, soft breeze, not too hot, not too cold. Just right. You’re on the deck sunning just as you’ve been doing every day for fifteen years. You wear a shocking pink two-piece bathing suit to offset a dark tan. Your book, a mystery, lies open face down on the floor next to a dripping pina colada. Your eyes are closed under dark sunglasses.
Late in the day, clouds start to roll in. The water becomes choppy. The captain hobbles by and greets you. You do not notice his peg leg and the black patch over his right eye. He says a storm is blowing in. It would be best if you went down below. You thank him, as you have done every day for fifteen years, and you gather your things. He is such a nice captain.
Only this day is different. This time, when you open your eyes, you take off your sunglasses. You look up. You notice a black flag with the white skull and cross bones flying overhead. Has this flag always been there? Where is the American flag that was there yesterday? Something is wrong. This is not the Love Boat. This is a pirate’s ship.
You ask your husband, a crewmember. Do you see the flag? Do you see what I see? He aspires to become First Mate. He does not want to see it. You tell him you and he should leave. He does not want to leave. He becomes angry when you tell him what you have seen. He does not believe you. You take off his dark glasses. Tell him to look. He sees the flag. He confronts the Captain. The Captain hands him a sword. Arm yourself, my boy, says the Captain. Protect the Queen’s one true flagship.
cont.
This is how it happens with Alec and me. By this time we are living in Portland, Oregon where we have decided to work on our marriage and run a small fellowship, a twig. Joshua is two months old and we are living in a condo north of Portland.
On this particular day, I am sitting at the kitchen table, reading a book about faith and art by Madeline L’Engle. I have started reading writers outside of The Way, not just secular authors but other Christians like L’Engle. Her book resonates with me. I want to be a writer; I want to keep the faith. She shows me how.
But I know I need to come clean with Alec. After the miracle of Joshua’s birth, I must confront the cloud of hypocrisy we have been living under. The Word says “the truth will set you free.” The Doctor always taught that the “truth” referred to God’s Word. Only speaking the actual words of the Word would set us free. In other words, as long as you quote Scripture, you can tell any lie you want. It’s the Age of Grace. But today I’m doing something radical and new. Today I’m telling the truth of my own experience.
Alec arrives home a little after five. He is happy. He gathers Joshua in his arms and lifts him over his head.
“How is my little man today?” he says and covers him with kisses. I worry sometimes that he will be too rough with the baby but he adores this child. He would never hurt him.
“Alec, we need to talk,” I say, putting down my book.
“Oh, no, what is it this time? Can’t you at least wait until I take off my jacket?”
“It’s important, Alec. What I have to say may change the way you look at God and the ministry forever.”
He looks at me, examines my face. He can see I am serious. I am not going to criticize or accuse him of anything. This is about the ministry. This is important. He returns the baby to its basket and takes off his jacket.
“So what is it?” he says.
“Aren’t you going to sit down?”
“I can hear you standing up. I want to know what you’re talking about.” He tosses his jacket onto the couch and it slips to the floor. Neither of us rises to pick it up. My heart is pounding and my face feels red.
“The ministry isn’t what you think it is. Dr. Wierwille isn’t who you think he is.”
By the way.....you DID know he died from cancer (as did Uncle Harry and Don W.) didn't you? I'm sure, being an advanced class grad, you can see the obvious doctrinal problems that created. Oh, and he had some pretty fine classic cars, too. (I rode in the convertible, for whatever that's worth.)
yeah i know he died from cancer. others that left TWI have died from cancer , so what. my grandmother(not a believer, she didnt believe what the bible said) died from colon cancer. yes i saw an old red pontiac convert at the rock one time. so what. i have a 1965 mustang gt fastback for a $125.00 back in 1974. the mustang is worth over 20K right now. so what. my landlord has # panteras, 2 1968 cougar GTE with the 427 and some a 65 ford galaxie factory 427 4 speed 2dr ht. those cars together are worth over 300K if he sold them today. my landlord bought them in the early 70's when you could buy a 65-70 shelby mustang for a few thousand. the shelbys are bringing 100K-^ today. just cause someone has expensive classic cars doent mean they paid a lot for them. some bought them new and some bought them used before they became collector cars. theres a guy on the BOSS429 mustang registry that has a 69 BOSS 429 mustang he bought new. he wants to sell it(maybe he sold it) and is asking 250K for it. i have 3 sets of drums that would bring a huge amount of money, i bought them new about 25 years ago and they were really cheap. yeah iirc the convert was a mid 60's red gto. Get Tools Out !
"...yeah i know he died from cancer. others that left TWI have died from cancer , so what?"
Well, being an advanced class grad, I'm sure you remember that VP taught cancer was a devil spirit.
Quite a dilemma, don't you think?
That would mean that, either we were followings the teachings of a man who was devil possessed (by his own definition)... or ....maybe he was wrong about that. And,if he was wrong about that, what else might he have been wrong about?
Picture this. You’re on a cruise ship sailing through the Caribbean. The weather is balmy, bright afternoon sunshine, soft breeze, not too hot, not too cold. Just right. You’re on the deck sunning just as you’ve been doing every day for fifteen years. You wear a shocking pink two-piece bathing suit to offset a dark tan. Your book, a mystery, lies open face down on the floor next to a dripping pina colada. Your eyes are closed under dark sunglasses.
Late in the day, clouds start to roll in. The water becomes choppy. The captain hobbles by and greets you. You do not notice his peg leg and the black patch over his right eye. He says a storm is blowing in. It would be best if you went down below. You thank him, as you have done every day for fifteen years, and you gather your things. He is such a nice captain.
Only this day is different. This time, when you open your eyes, you take off your sunglasses. You look up. You notice a black flag with the white skull and cross bones flying overhead. Has this flag always been there? Where is the American flag that was there yesterday? Something is wrong. This is not the Love Boat. This is a pirate’s ship.
You ask your husband, a crewmember. Do you see the flag? Do you see what I see? He aspires to become First Mate. He does not want to see it. You tell him you and he should leave. He does not want to leave. He becomes angry when you tell him what you have seen. He does not believe you. You take off his dark glasses. Tell him to look. He sees the flag. He confronts the Captain. The Captain hands him a sword. Arm yourself, my boy, says the Captain. Protect the Queen’s one true flagship.
cont.
This is how it happens with Alec and me. By this time we are living in Portland, Oregon where we have decided to work on our marriage and run a small fellowship, a twig. Joshua is two months old and we are living in a condo north of Portland.
On this particular day, I am sitting at the kitchen table, reading a book about faith and art by Madeline L’Engle. I have started reading writers outside of The Way, not just secular authors but other Christians like L’Engle. Her book resonates with me. I want to be a writer; I want to keep the faith. She shows me how.
But I know I need to come clean with Alec. After the miracle of Joshua’s birth, I must confront the cloud of hypocrisy we have been living under. The Word says “the truth will set you free.” The Doctor always taught that the “truth” referred to God’s Word. Only speaking the actual words of the Word would set us free. In other words, as long as you quote Scripture, you can tell any lie you want. It’s the Age of Grace. But today I’m doing something radical and new. Today I’m telling the truth of my own experience.
Alec arrives home a little after five. He is happy. He gathers Joshua in his arms and lifts him over his head.
“How is my little man today?” he says and covers him with kisses. I worry sometimes that he will be too rough with the baby but he adores this child. He would never hurt him.
“Alec, we need to talk,” I say, putting down my book.
“Oh, no, what is it this time? Can’t you at least wait until I take off my jacket?”
“It’s important, Alec. What I have to say may change the way you look at God and the ministry forever.”
He looks at me, examines my face. He can see I am serious. I am not going to criticize or accuse him of anything. This is about the ministry. This is important. He returns the baby to its basket and takes off his jacket.
“So what is it?” he says.
“Aren’t you going to sit down?”
“I can hear you standing up. I want to know what you’re talking about.” He tosses his jacket onto the couch and it slips to the floor. Neither of us rises to pick it up. My heart is pounding and my face feels red.
“The ministry isn’t what you think it is. Dr. Wierwille isn’t who you think he is.”
i have ben around a lot of believers since 1980. i have lived with leadership including branch, limb, and region coordinators. i have known a lot of female way corps. went wow 2 times in the early 80's. i never heard anyone mention this stuff and i didnt see anything abnormal going on. it takes 2 people to commit adultry like with martindale. it wasnt just martindale but also the 2 women that were adulteres. if a so called believer woman had an affair with another so called believer it is the fault of those two. all i hear are roumors and lies. like i posted a friend that was a twi fellowship coordinator whom i have known and lived with around 1987 never heard of any of this crap either. he quit twi about 1988 and ovwersees several independant fellowships along with a few others. he and another guy went to the way collage of emporia in the early 80's. both were going to twi fellowships in the 1970's. they say they never saw or heard of VP screwing around. these 2 guys dont like TWI and if there was something they could accuse twi of they would. just because some people say stuff happened doesnt mean it happened. i know a guy back in the south that i took pfal with in 1980. i saw talked with him a while back and all he could do is put down twi and never could come up with a good reason other then he didnt like LCM. we will all know the truth after the return. everyone shall give account of themselves, lies shall be exposed, it shall be shouted from the rooftops. i remember VP talking about other bible scholars accusing Paul of being a sex maniac. the devil aint got nothing new to acccuse people of, hell even Jesus family accused him of being nuts ! somebody should go write a book about Pauls so called sex adventures and Jesus being a nutcase. oh i almost forgot , theres already a book that says Jesus was a homosexual ! believe what you want but remember all rights shall be wronged after the return, that is wrongs done in this administration. you might even find out how many times my monkey needed a spanking !!!!!!!!! lol !
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Steve Lortz
Well, I went to the TLTF website and found out about their "The End Times" seminar (!?!), eight 40-minute segments on dispensationalism. I just finished two semesters of Constructive Theology, in w
Steve Lortz
I think you hit the nail on the head, OldSkool, when you used the phrase "extreme highmindedness". Romans 11:20 says "Be not highminded, but fear:" Wierwille expressly taught in foundational PFAL tha
Steve Lortz
I've been giving this some more thought. After I took Power for Abundant Living, I thought that I was a better Christian. Whether or not I really was is something for the Lord Jesus Christ to judge,
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waysider
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
btw, our chutch purchased the materuals and has it stored there for future use. Can PFAL or WAP make the same claim and say, alright DVD's, books, and meals cost nothing? Doubt it, too much a cash cow
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waysider
Last I heard, The Way was sitting on about 56 million dollars in assets. (probably somewhat less, given the current state of the economy) They're supposed to be a charitable organization, according to their 501 status. What are they waiting for??
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OldSkool
It's all in the timing, they need to reach up in the cookie jar a few more times to be sure....but any day now...
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Steve Lortz
Were you ever involved in any "grad" activities? After I left TWI I was thoroughly disgusted with all the name-tags and the artificial divisions they promoted in the body of Christ. Grads WERE considered better than the non-grads, even of the foundational class. That was a fundamental assumption for anybody running a class, and I know whereof I write, because I ran my share. I thought we had gotten away from that way of thinking in CES, but one of first horrifying things I saw after Momentus was a return by the leaders of CES to a "grads are better than non-grads" mentality.
The WHOLE motivator behind promoting a class... any class... is that grads will be better than non-grads. That's okay for a course in drumming or auto mechanics, but Christianity is spiritual, and classes are fleshly. The knowledge in PFAL/Intro to God's Heart/Exercising Spiritual Authority/Momentus/etc. DOES NOT edify. It PUFFS UP.
While you were involved with PFAL and TWI, you may well have developed a "better" walk with God, but I submit it was because you were humble to God, and not because of the class. Wierwille stole credit for himself and his class that properly belonged to the Lord Jesus Christ and to God the Father.
Love,
Steve
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excathedra
i can't keep up with all this
god's grace, mercy, love and sacrifice ofr our lord jesus christ is free
and so are we
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Steve Lortz
You are right, excie, you are right!
Love,
Steve
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shiftthis
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shiftthis
now thats different, yeah that aint right. thats using classes for a business to make money. reminds me of the record in gospels where people were selling second rate offerings so they could make a lot of money. Jesus took care of them, ran em off.
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shiftthis
there are full time people that have to be paid, eventually building will need to be renovated and you either pay cash or borrow money, and i can make a fone call and find out how much twi has if i want. last you heard, hell i'v heard a lot of theings about the way that aint true. however twi might have 56 mil in dollars and assetts. The Weirwilles GAVE all their land(the farm) to twi when it was first started and that farm land and all those building alone are worth millions. if people want to give money to twi its there business. my grandmother gave tens of thousands of dollars to the roman catholic church and a lot of that went to pet his azz lawsiut settlements. lot of people gave money to build the crystal cathedral and its gone belly up. you ask what are they waiting for ? what do you mean ? do you think they are suppose to just give it all away to anyone. some of that money came from me over the years. i think they should sit on it.
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shiftthis
if the ones your refering to arnt a registerd non profit then they have to pay taxes. i see what you mean. if they are a registered non profit they can still charge for classes, it can get complicated. i am putting together an outreach band and we the band members are going to finance the whole thing. we are going to play in parks for free. however if someone wants us to come play in another state we will need money for travel. do we register as a nonprofit or do we take private donations for gas, food , hotel room ? it gets real complicated and i might have to get DOT weight stickers for my f350. we consider the band to be a charity.
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waysider
I think Wierwille's profit plan was two-fold. In the short term, classes were there to generate an immediate profit. But, that profit doesn't last. Take my own example. I paid $65 to take the foundational class. That $65 didn't go very far. Then, I had to pay to take this class, that class and so on. Again, those fees didn't last. So, the genius of Wierwille's scheme was in the long term profits generated by the ABS, a system that was introduced from the very beginning in PFAL. Yeah, the 65 bucks quickly disappeared but, then I continued to give them my hard earned cash with every paycheck I earned, week after week, month after month, year after year. The class was only a small cog in the money making machine that came to be known as The Way. And, it worked. Wierwille lived like a king...private jet, motorcoaches that he could use for his frequent sexual exploits, fancy motorcycles, expensive hunting and fishing gear, gallons and gallons of booze, expensive hunting and fishing trips..... and the list continues. So much for needs and wants being parallel.
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OldSkool
Would you please do that and tell us how it went? 419-753-2523 --- Ask for Rosalie.
http://starpas.azcc.gov/scripts/cgiip.exe/WService=wsbroker1/names-detail.p?name-id=F00256060&type=CORPORATION
The 2008 report was the last time they had to report assets. It was around 57 million. And the Wierwille farm would hardly be worth millions. They made that money through the business they are engaged in. Selling classes and receiving charitable donations. So what charitable activities are they engaged in? Fellowships are free but the way doesn't provide those. They are provided by volunteers at their own expense. Tithes/ABS are sent to HQ and the money NEVER returns.
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shiftthis
i will give you that benifit of the doubt that you have ben missinformed rather than call you a liar. the way NEVER had a jet. this is a foto of the exact type of plane the way had and its a Convair 240 converted from radial piston engines to turboprop engines. the converted 240 is called a 580. VP had one old bus that had ben converted to a motorcoach and showed up in jackson mississippi in 1980 in it and taught. produve proof of the sexual exploits you accuse him of. it seems its easy to accuse a dead man of stuff cause they arnt around to defend themselves. i never and have never seen or know ANY leader to live high on the hog. and even if they did whats the problem? are you envious ? i wish they would give themselves raises BUT i guess if they did people would get teed off ! i guees its o.k. for an unbeliever president and his family to fly around and go on vactions about every other week at OUR expenxe but if a man of GOD did a fraction of that people raise hell and get teed off. the only fancy motorcycle he had was given to him by Harley Davidson and I was there at the rock of ages when HD gave it to him. a foto of "the twig hopper" as he called it. if you dont want to give why did you give ? no one held a gun to your head and forced you to give. there are , have ben , and will probably always be those that dont tithe. i'm glad VP had nice hunting gear. i used to go hunting and i certainly wouldnt use cheap gear. i dont think you ever went to a way fellowship, it sounds like your just repeating roumors you've heard. this thread started out as a discussion about people charging for classes. i almost no time its turned into a hateful slanderous thing againt TWI and other ministries. i personally know a guy that runs an independent and they aint trying to get rich, he is a cabnet maker.
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waysider
I wish what you're saying is true but, unfortunately it's not. (Except maybe the part about the plane being a turboprop or whatever). As to proof, there are people (lots of them) here who knew Wierwille on a very up-close and personal level, people who regularly rode on those motorcoaches, rode on the airplane, repaired his twighopper, clandestinely, after he crashed it, women who were "personally violated" after he slipped them date rape drugs. Yes, if it's proof you genuinely want, there is really no shortage of it here in the pages of GSC. You might,also, want to pick up a copy of Losing The Way. You can pick up a Kindle copy for less than ten bucks. Or, you can use the search window to find what you want...
I have to warn you, though, you might find yourself feeling a bit like Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz, when Toto pulled back the curtain, revealing the wizard's hoax.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
as for the sexual crimes of Wierwille, too bad the net didn't exist. Personally if VP had lived and all the victims had come forth to file a lawsuit similar to Martindale, "the Teacher" would likely been prosecuted and it is too bad Mrs. wierwille didn't file for divorce. You have not read the reports here on Greasespot. Maybe VPW, Geer, and Martindale should have been pedophiles like Sandrusky or closet homosexuals.
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waysider
By the way.....you DID know he died from cancer (as did Uncle Harry and Don W.) didn't you? I'm sure, being an advanced class grad, you can see the obvious doctrinal problems that created. Oh, and he had some pretty fine classic cars, too. (I rode in the convertible, for whatever that's worth.)
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waysider
I seemed to have strayed from the topic of classes. Maybe THIS will bring it back to topic.
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waysider
From Losing The Way:
From Chapter Sixteen:
Picture this. You’re on a cruise ship sailing through the Caribbean. The weather is balmy, bright afternoon sunshine, soft breeze, not too hot, not too cold. Just right. You’re on the deck sunning just as you’ve been doing every day for fifteen years. You wear a shocking pink two-piece bathing suit to offset a dark tan. Your book, a mystery, lies open face down on the floor next to a dripping pina colada. Your eyes are closed under dark sunglasses.
Late in the day, clouds start to roll in. The water becomes choppy. The captain hobbles by and greets you. You do not notice his peg leg and the black patch over his right eye. He says a storm is blowing in. It would be best if you went down below. You thank him, as you have done every day for fifteen years, and you gather your things. He is such a nice captain.
Only this day is different. This time, when you open your eyes, you take off your sunglasses. You look up. You notice a black flag with the white skull and cross bones flying overhead. Has this flag always been there? Where is the American flag that was there yesterday? Something is wrong. This is not the Love Boat. This is a pirate’s ship.
You ask your husband, a crewmember. Do you see the flag? Do you see what I see? He aspires to become First Mate. He does not want to see it. You tell him you and he should leave. He does not want to leave. He becomes angry when you tell him what you have seen. He does not believe you. You take off his dark glasses. Tell him to look. He sees the flag. He confronts the Captain. The Captain hands him a sword. Arm yourself, my boy, says the Captain. Protect the Queen’s one true flagship.
cont.
This is how it happens with Alec and me. By this time we are living in Portland, Oregon where we have decided to work on our marriage and run a small fellowship, a twig. Joshua is two months old and we are living in a condo north of Portland.
On this particular day, I am sitting at the kitchen table, reading a book about faith and art by Madeline L’Engle. I have started reading writers outside of The Way, not just secular authors but other Christians like L’Engle. Her book resonates with me. I want to be a writer; I want to keep the faith. She shows me how.
But I know I need to come clean with Alec. After the miracle of Joshua’s birth, I must confront the cloud of hypocrisy we have been living under. The Word says “the truth will set you free.” The Doctor always taught that the “truth” referred to God’s Word. Only speaking the actual words of the Word would set us free. In other words, as long as you quote Scripture, you can tell any lie you want. It’s the Age of Grace. But today I’m doing something radical and new. Today I’m telling the truth of my own experience.
Alec arrives home a little after five. He is happy. He gathers Joshua in his arms and lifts him over his head.
“How is my little man today?” he says and covers him with kisses. I worry sometimes that he will be too rough with the baby but he adores this child. He would never hurt him.
“Alec, we need to talk,” I say, putting down my book.
“Oh, no, what is it this time? Can’t you at least wait until I take off my jacket?”
“It’s important, Alec. What I have to say may change the way you look at God and the ministry forever.”
He looks at me, examines my face. He can see I am serious. I am not going to criticize or accuse him of anything. This is about the ministry. This is important. He returns the baby to its basket and takes off his jacket.
“So what is it?” he says.
“Aren’t you going to sit down?”
“I can hear you standing up. I want to know what you’re talking about.” He tosses his jacket onto the couch and it slips to the floor. Neither of us rises to pick it up. My heart is pounding and my face feels red.
“The ministry isn’t what you think it is. Dr. Wierwille isn’t who you think he is.”
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shiftthis
yeah i know he died from cancer. others that left TWI have died from cancer , so what. my grandmother(not a believer, she didnt believe what the bible said) died from colon cancer. yes i saw an old red pontiac convert at the rock one time. so what. i have a 1965 mustang gt fastback for a $125.00 back in 1974. the mustang is worth over 20K right now. so what. my landlord has # panteras, 2 1968 cougar GTE with the 427 and some a 65 ford galaxie factory 427 4 speed 2dr ht. those cars together are worth over 300K if he sold them today. my landlord bought them in the early 70's when you could buy a 65-70 shelby mustang for a few thousand. the shelbys are bringing 100K-^ today. just cause someone has expensive classic cars doent mean they paid a lot for them. some bought them new and some bought them used before they became collector cars. theres a guy on the BOSS429 mustang registry that has a 69 BOSS 429 mustang he bought new. he wants to sell it(maybe he sold it) and is asking 250K for it. i have 3 sets of drums that would bring a huge amount of money, i bought them new about 25 years ago and they were really cheap. yeah iirc the convert was a mid 60's red gto. Get Tools Out !
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waysider
"...yeah i know he died from cancer. others that left TWI have died from cancer , so what?"
Well, being an advanced class grad, I'm sure you remember that VP taught cancer was a devil spirit.
Quite a dilemma, don't you think?
That would mean that, either we were followings the teachings of a man who was devil possessed (by his own definition)... or ....maybe he was wrong about that. And,if he was wrong about that, what else might he have been wrong about?
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
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i have ben around a lot of believers since 1980. i have lived with leadership including branch, limb, and region coordinators. i have known a lot of female way corps. went wow 2 times in the early 80's. i never heard anyone mention this stuff and i didnt see anything abnormal going on. it takes 2 people to commit adultry like with martindale. it wasnt just martindale but also the 2 women that were adulteres. if a so called believer woman had an affair with another so called believer it is the fault of those two. all i hear are roumors and lies. like i posted a friend that was a twi fellowship coordinator whom i have known and lived with around 1987 never heard of any of this crap either. he quit twi about 1988 and ovwersees several independant fellowships along with a few others. he and another guy went to the way collage of emporia in the early 80's. both were going to twi fellowships in the 1970's. they say they never saw or heard of VP screwing around. these 2 guys dont like TWI and if there was something they could accuse twi of they would. just because some people say stuff happened doesnt mean it happened. i know a guy back in the south that i took pfal with in 1980. i saw talked with him a while back and all he could do is put down twi and never could come up with a good reason other then he didnt like LCM. we will all know the truth after the return. everyone shall give account of themselves, lies shall be exposed, it shall be shouted from the rooftops. i remember VP talking about other bible scholars accusing Paul of being a sex maniac. the devil aint got nothing new to acccuse people of, hell even Jesus family accused him of being nuts ! somebody should go write a book about Pauls so called sex adventures and Jesus being a nutcase. oh i almost forgot , theres already a book that says Jesus was a homosexual ! believe what you want but remember all rights shall be wronged after the return, that is wrongs done in this administration. you might even find out how many times my monkey needed a spanking !!!!!!!!! lol !
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waysider
On a note of interest:
The class materials didn't originate with Wierwille in the first place. He plagiarized them from other sources.
One such example...
HERE
And HERE
And HERE
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