When I was at HQ it quickly became apparent that these two were as close as two peas in a pod. My job allowed me to be all over the place. So what did I see? The Rosie and Donna show. Together as much as possible, Rosie leaving Donna's apartment in the middle of the afternoon, Donna at Rosie's house often and frequently. The two work together like husband and wife. They are the ones who really run the way international and the other so called directors act more as administrative assistants, gathering papers, giving rubber stamp approval where necessary. But under no means do the other directors do anything w/o Rosalie's direction. Which really means Rosalie and Donna.
I will never forget during placements one year, we were on break. I came back in the room early and there was Rosie and Donna sitting in the corner together running down a list of names and "placing them" where they needed to move to in the coming year. I was close enough to over hear. They had no regard for their own process and it was sickening obvious that hypocrisy was rampant with those two.
As for being a happy couple? It's the ultimate slap in the face to their ministry's followers. After purging countless suspected homosexuals from the ranks over the years and falsely accusing many people of being sympathizers, fantasizers, etc. They teach from the Bible that homosexuality is a sin and somehow count themselves above their own teachings. They not only give the appearance of a couple....well....if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck....
As for being a happy couple? It's the ultimate slap in the face to their ministry's followers. After purging countless suspected homosexuals from the ranks over the years and falsely accusing many people of being sympathizers, fantasizers, etc. They teach from the Bible that homosexuality is a sin and somehow count themselves above their own teachings. They not only give the appearance of a couple....well....if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck....
Like VPW before them, I'm sure state that you have to be 'super' spiritually mature to handle it, and most are not. Does anyone know if Rosalie knew VPW intimately like Donna did?
I remember talking with someone in Way Styles who had a conversation with Rosalie during the filming of the "new" Way Class. Rosalie told her that she had taken "that nonsense" about the first sin of mankind being homosexuality. I was sure they would do some sort of retraction of the error, but they never retracted it to my knowledge... They just took it out. Rosalie apparently thinks its an erroneous teaching, but she never had it changed.
One interesting angle to look at with respect to Rosalie and Donna's relationship is to look at the impact upon each of their children.
Rosalie has kids from best guess a previous marriage (although she hides details of her personal life and past so extensively it's hard to get info on it). They are marked and avoided by her. I have heard one of them had a drug problem. I don't know how many kids, how long she was married, etc. I don't know if a marriage license from North Carolina is available to find. Suffice it to say that her children have long since been abandoned and are not involved in TWI.
Donna has 3 kids from the marriage with Craig - Tim, Leah, and Dorothy. I don't believe any of them have much of anything to do with TWI. They are certainly not interested in the TWI leadership program (Way Corps) unless my facts are way off base.
So in other words the way these two are living isn't even compelling to their own children.
They are certainly not interested in the TWI leadership program (Way Corps) unless my facts are way off base.
I know first hand that Tim hated the idea of going into the way corpse and had been propositioned so many, many times that he was offended at the very idea.
I guess the idea of the super spiritual gene never took root in Tim. Thank God. The dude was alright with me.
Also, I think it is compelling to illustrate how Rosalie handles inquiries about her support of homosexuality/lesbianism. I heard an account about a Way Corps grad while at Camp Gunnison asking Vince McF about what the story was regarding Janet M and Sharon C living in her basement in one bedroom in one bed. Vince was supposedly bragging about his close relationship with Rosalie showing pictures of them together, how he personally emails her, etc. - I guess to those climbing the ring kissing ladder that is impressive.
So this Corps grad asks what about Janet and Sharon? Vince says "I don't know - I'll ask". So he goes and asks, and gets back to the person asking. The answer given was "they said they were delivered". Next came the inquisition and intense pressure from the Way Tree arm / Way of the USA. It was like you had stirred up a beehive. How dare this person question the morals of the president. This was an attack of the adversary. So multiple layers of counseling layers of leadership in the Way Tree about how to handle these types of devilish questions, an inquisition of the person asking them - of course the Corps grad had already been dropped or classified as "alumni" and had no leadership responsibility so they couldn't threaten any of that. But believe me if that person had any of those, Rosalie would have had it removed. They came down on this person like a ton of bricks - and all the leadership in the local area basically treated this person with contempt from that day onward. The Region Coordinator eventually got the spotlight off himself by saying "yeah, we see this type of attack from the adversary on a periodic basis - accusations like these kick up about twice a year, so we have to handle them". This shows the general pattern of what happens when anyone questions things coming from Rosalie.
So first, the answer to the questions brings up some severe BS detectors. They said they were delivered? So is this how you help people stay delivered or recovered? What about an alchoholic? Would you give them a job as a bartender at your club? Allow them to have a fully stocked bar in the one-bedroom apartment they rent from you in your house? What exactly is it about having two females live in a one-bedroom apartment in your basement together and sleep in the same bed for years that promotes them being "delivered" from lesbianism? The two were inseperable around TWI HQ (much like Rosalie and Donna), they gave each other rings on an anniversary of their knowing each other. They both left HQ together and moved to the same location when leaving staff - Rosalie threw them a going away party. Oh, and here's the most insane part. One of the biggest reasons for those two being on staff was that Janet Myracle was present during Craig's "homo purges". She was particularly adept at "sniffing out homosexuality" or people that were lying about it. She exposed many, many people hiding out in that situation on staff who were blackballed and sent away. Janet's end goal was to be ordained. When that failed, Janet and Sharon moved.
Very clearly, Rosalie was lying in her response to this Way Corps grad. In fact, what she was doing was sheltering a lesbian couple from the negative impact of Craig's homo purge, all the while using them to expose others. In addition to this, Rosalie and Donna, while Donna was married to Craig, were becoming closer and closer. She was isolating Donna away from Craig, getting closer and closer emotionally (and undoubtedly sexually too), which of course was edging Craig closer and closer to insanity. He was unfaithful to his wife, then saw her being taken away from him bit by bit and there was nothing he could do about it. Finally, the ultimate coup for Rosalie - Craig slipped up and ....ed off a married guy with his antics, and got sued. There was the leverage to take over the Presidency. Next, after an appropriate period of time passed for the public to get used to it, she had Craig dropped from the Corps, fired from staff, moved off of TWI grounds, and at the same time made an exception in policy for Donna to stay there and not have to leave with her husband. Since that time it's unclear whether Craig and Donna are actually divorced legally, or just seperated - whatever has happened it has been whitewashed over many times to explain anything away.
Next, the President's Cabinet. Do they know all this? While there is no 100% proof of anything, many of those guys are smart enough to navigate tricky TWI politics, and remain having a teflon coating. It's hard to believe that after years working around those two that they have no clue of this. However, I'm sure it's hidden. If the cabinet people do start to garner a clue, then they have a pretty severe inner conflict with continuing to support those antics. So there probably is a blend of people on the Cabinet that are so fanatical they would never entertain an idea regarding the truth of their scenario along with others who suspect but are preserving their little rice bowl, to others that become conflicted and drop off.
Oh, what a tangled web we weave.
I know first hand that Tim hated the idea of going into the way corpse and had been propositioned so many, many times that he was offended at the very idea.
I guess the idea of the super spiritual gene never took root in Tim. Thank God. The dude was alright with me.
Last I heard, Leah ran off and eloped and got married. She couldn't get away from HQ fast enough.
Rosalie was married for 6 years...had 3 kids...divorced in ohio in 1977. husband remarried and I wonder if they kids have a better relationship with him.
I remember talking with someone in Way Styles who had a conversation with Rosalie during the filming of the "new" Way Class. Rosalie told her that she had taken "that nonsense" about the first sin of mankind being homosexuality. I was sure they would do some sort of retraction of the error, but they never retracted it to my knowledge... They just took it out. Rosalie apparently thinks its an erroneous teaching, but she never had it changed.
You know, while Craig's rants during his Foundational Class on the topic were probably fueled by things going on personally in his life, and they really probably shouldn't be in a class like that, if you are going to run a fundamentalist Bible organization that believes "the Word of God is the Will of God", then it's really, really hard to get away from what is stated in Romans regarding the topic.
Last I heard, Leah ran off and eloped and got married. She couldn't get away from HQ fast enough.
I didn't know she eloped but would not be a bit surprised to find out. I do know she is married with children. I will withhold the last name for privacy sake, but I can tell you that Donna hated it with a passion because it reminded her of believing in reverse . Poetic justice?
Like VPW before them, I'm sure state that you have to be 'super' spiritually mature to handle it, and most are not. Does anyone know if Rosalie knew VPW intimately like Donna did?
i doubt it because she was so disgusting and not young and appealing like donna. plus linda z and others have said rosie had (openly, at least when he was dying) zero respect for the vpw
--
there were posts about rosie-r having substantial money of her own ? and about one of her kids being in jail. i don't know how to look it up
but whatever. in '82 i felt donna and rozie were something to contend with
--
as far as janet miracle sniffing out those no-good homos, i would like to puke on her
If you use a magnifying glass on the page (unless you want to pay to be a member of the Web site and see it full-size), you can see both her name and her photo, 5th row down, 2nd person from left.
There's a Rembert R. Rivenbark, Jr. with wife Rosalie in the 1958 New Bern city directory. If that's the same Rosalie (and it makes sense that it is), she must have married him right out of high school.
I also found her listed as "Rosalie Fox Shumate" in the 1963 East Carolina College's (not University) "The Buccaneer" yearbook, but w/ no photo.
There's also a record of a divorce between James M. Shumate, Jr. and Rosalie Shumate on Dec. 30, 1970, in Craven County, NC.
What's interesting is her use of the name "Rivenbark." It doesn't surprise me, though. It looks like Rembert Rivenbark was from a fairly prominent New Bern family. Maybe that name gave her more prestige than Shumate.
Edited to add: I just looked at Chockfull's post again. Now that marriage license makes sense. When she married Shumate in 1960, her legal name would have been Rivenbark from her previous marriage. Busy girl!
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Ham
I'm still surprised they haven't run the "happy couple" out on a rail..
or at the very least had an old fashioned inquisition or something..
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waysider
As someone else stated, it's not their personal lifestyle I find unacceptable, it's the hypocrisy of the situation.
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Ham
Yeah, that's it.. Those in Charge cannot ever, never, be possessed. Or something like that..
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OldSkool
When I was at HQ it quickly became apparent that these two were as close as two peas in a pod. My job allowed me to be all over the place. So what did I see? The Rosie and Donna show. Together as much as possible, Rosie leaving Donna's apartment in the middle of the afternoon, Donna at Rosie's house often and frequently. The two work together like husband and wife. They are the ones who really run the way international and the other so called directors act more as administrative assistants, gathering papers, giving rubber stamp approval where necessary. But under no means do the other directors do anything w/o Rosalie's direction. Which really means Rosalie and Donna.
I will never forget during placements one year, we were on break. I came back in the room early and there was Rosie and Donna sitting in the corner together running down a list of names and "placing them" where they needed to move to in the coming year. I was close enough to over hear. They had no regard for their own process and it was sickening obvious that hypocrisy was rampant with those two.
As for being a happy couple? It's the ultimate slap in the face to their ministry's followers. After purging countless suspected homosexuals from the ranks over the years and falsely accusing many people of being sympathizers, fantasizers, etc. They teach from the Bible that homosexuality is a sin and somehow count themselves above their own teachings. They not only give the appearance of a couple....well....if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck....
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Rejoice
Like VPW before them, I'm sure state that you have to be 'super' spiritually mature to handle it, and most are not. Does anyone know if Rosalie knew VPW intimately like Donna did?
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JavaJane
I remember talking with someone in Way Styles who had a conversation with Rosalie during the filming of the "new" Way Class. Rosalie told her that she had taken "that nonsense" about the first sin of mankind being homosexuality. I was sure they would do some sort of retraction of the error, but they never retracted it to my knowledge... They just took it out. Rosalie apparently thinks its an erroneous teaching, but she never had it changed.
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chockfull
One interesting angle to look at with respect to Rosalie and Donna's relationship is to look at the impact upon each of their children.
Rosalie has kids from best guess a previous marriage (although she hides details of her personal life and past so extensively it's hard to get info on it). They are marked and avoided by her. I have heard one of them had a drug problem. I don't know how many kids, how long she was married, etc. I don't know if a marriage license from North Carolina is available to find. Suffice it to say that her children have long since been abandoned and are not involved in TWI.
Donna has 3 kids from the marriage with Craig - Tim, Leah, and Dorothy. I don't believe any of them have much of anything to do with TWI. They are certainly not interested in the TWI leadership program (Way Corps) unless my facts are way off base.
So in other words the way these two are living isn't even compelling to their own children.
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OldSkool
I know first hand that Tim hated the idea of going into the way corpse and had been propositioned so many, many times that he was offended at the very idea.
I guess the idea of the super spiritual gene never took root in Tim. Thank God. The dude was alright with me.
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chockfull
Also, I think it is compelling to illustrate how Rosalie handles inquiries about her support of homosexuality/lesbianism. I heard an account about a Way Corps grad while at Camp Gunnison asking Vince McF about what the story was regarding Janet M and Sharon C living in her basement in one bedroom in one bed. Vince was supposedly bragging about his close relationship with Rosalie showing pictures of them together, how he personally emails her, etc. - I guess to those climbing the ring kissing ladder that is impressive.
So this Corps grad asks what about Janet and Sharon? Vince says "I don't know - I'll ask". So he goes and asks, and gets back to the person asking. The answer given was "they said they were delivered". Next came the inquisition and intense pressure from the Way Tree arm / Way of the USA. It was like you had stirred up a beehive. How dare this person question the morals of the president. This was an attack of the adversary. So multiple layers of counseling layers of leadership in the Way Tree about how to handle these types of devilish questions, an inquisition of the person asking them - of course the Corps grad had already been dropped or classified as "alumni" and had no leadership responsibility so they couldn't threaten any of that. But believe me if that person had any of those, Rosalie would have had it removed. They came down on this person like a ton of bricks - and all the leadership in the local area basically treated this person with contempt from that day onward. The Region Coordinator eventually got the spotlight off himself by saying "yeah, we see this type of attack from the adversary on a periodic basis - accusations like these kick up about twice a year, so we have to handle them". This shows the general pattern of what happens when anyone questions things coming from Rosalie.
So first, the answer to the questions brings up some severe BS detectors. They said they were delivered? So is this how you help people stay delivered or recovered? What about an alchoholic? Would you give them a job as a bartender at your club? Allow them to have a fully stocked bar in the one-bedroom apartment they rent from you in your house? What exactly is it about having two females live in a one-bedroom apartment in your basement together and sleep in the same bed for years that promotes them being "delivered" from lesbianism? The two were inseperable around TWI HQ (much like Rosalie and Donna), they gave each other rings on an anniversary of their knowing each other. They both left HQ together and moved to the same location when leaving staff - Rosalie threw them a going away party. Oh, and here's the most insane part. One of the biggest reasons for those two being on staff was that Janet Myracle was present during Craig's "homo purges". She was particularly adept at "sniffing out homosexuality" or people that were lying about it. She exposed many, many people hiding out in that situation on staff who were blackballed and sent away. Janet's end goal was to be ordained. When that failed, Janet and Sharon moved.
Very clearly, Rosalie was lying in her response to this Way Corps grad. In fact, what she was doing was sheltering a lesbian couple from the negative impact of Craig's homo purge, all the while using them to expose others. In addition to this, Rosalie and Donna, while Donna was married to Craig, were becoming closer and closer. She was isolating Donna away from Craig, getting closer and closer emotionally (and undoubtedly sexually too), which of course was edging Craig closer and closer to insanity. He was unfaithful to his wife, then saw her being taken away from him bit by bit and there was nothing he could do about it. Finally, the ultimate coup for Rosalie - Craig slipped up and ....ed off a married guy with his antics, and got sued. There was the leverage to take over the Presidency. Next, after an appropriate period of time passed for the public to get used to it, she had Craig dropped from the Corps, fired from staff, moved off of TWI grounds, and at the same time made an exception in policy for Donna to stay there and not have to leave with her husband. Since that time it's unclear whether Craig and Donna are actually divorced legally, or just seperated - whatever has happened it has been whitewashed over many times to explain anything away.
Next, the President's Cabinet. Do they know all this? While there is no 100% proof of anything, many of those guys are smart enough to navigate tricky TWI politics, and remain having a teflon coating. It's hard to believe that after years working around those two that they have no clue of this. However, I'm sure it's hidden. If the cabinet people do start to garner a clue, then they have a pretty severe inner conflict with continuing to support those antics. So there probably is a blend of people on the Cabinet that are so fanatical they would never entertain an idea regarding the truth of their scenario along with others who suspect but are preserving their little rice bowl, to others that become conflicted and drop off.
Oh, what a tangled web we weave.
Last I heard, Leah ran off and eloped and got married. She couldn't get away from HQ fast enough.
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Rejoice
Rosalie was married for 6 years...had 3 kids...divorced in ohio in 1977. husband remarried and I wonder if they kids have a better relationship with him.
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chockfull
You know, while Craig's rants during his Foundational Class on the topic were probably fueled by things going on personally in his life, and they really probably shouldn't be in a class like that, if you are going to run a fundamentalist Bible organization that believes "the Word of God is the Will of God", then it's really, really hard to get away from what is stated in Romans regarding the topic.
Hypocrisy, ain't it a b1tch???
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OldSkool
I didn't know she eloped but would not be a bit surprised to find out. I do know she is married with children. I will withhold the last name for privacy sake, but I can tell you that Donna hated it with a passion because it reminded her of believing in reverse . Poetic justice?
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Steve Lortz
chockfull wrote "...preserving their little rice bowl..."
What an appropriate turn of phrase!
Love,
Steve
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excathedra
i doubt it because she was so disgusting and not young and appealing like donna. plus linda z and others have said rosie had (openly, at least when he was dying) zero respect for the vpw
--
there were posts about rosie-r having substantial money of her own ? and about one of her kids being in jail. i don't know how to look it up
but whatever. in '82 i felt donna and rozie were something to contend with
--
as far as janet miracle sniffing out those no-good homos, i would like to puke on her
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OldSkool
Word has it she has family money where they used to allow companies to harvest lumber off of their land down in New Bern, N.C.
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chockfull
Well, well, well. The Internet is serious bizness :) New Bern, NC is in Craven County.
http://deeds.cravencounty.com/external/LandRecords/protected/SrchQuickName.aspx
Searching on Rosalie Fox Rivenbark brings up a marriage license:
Issued: March 1960
GROOMS
SHUMATE, JAMES MARSHALL JR
BRIDES
RIVENBARK, ROSALIE FOX
AND - a birth record
SHUMATE, JAMES MARSHALL III - born 1961. Surmising - must have been Rosalie's first son.
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Rejoice
Ooooh, I thought Fox was her maiden name?
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OldSkool
Same here. Who the heck hangs a middle name like "Fox" on a kid? No wonder she's so messed up.
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Linda Z
Fox is her maiden name. Here's a link to her photo in the New Bern HS yearbook, class of 1957:
http://www.e-yearbook.com/yearbooks/New_Bern_High_School_Bruin_Yearbook/1957/Page_96.html
If you use a magnifying glass on the page (unless you want to pay to be a member of the Web site and see it full-size), you can see both her name and her photo, 5th row down, 2nd person from left.
There's a Rembert R. Rivenbark, Jr. with wife Rosalie in the 1958 New Bern city directory. If that's the same Rosalie (and it makes sense that it is), she must have married him right out of high school.
I also found her listed as "Rosalie Fox Shumate" in the 1963 East Carolina College's (not University) "The Buccaneer" yearbook, but w/ no photo.
There's also a record of a divorce between James M. Shumate, Jr. and Rosalie Shumate on Dec. 30, 1970, in Craven County, NC.
What's interesting is her use of the name "Rivenbark." It doesn't surprise me, though. It looks like Rembert Rivenbark was from a fairly prominent New Bern family. Maybe that name gave her more prestige than Shumate.
Edited to add: I just looked at Chockfull's post again. Now that marriage license makes sense. When she married Shumate in 1960, her legal name would have been Rivenbark from her previous marriage. Busy girl!
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OldSkool
To say the least!!
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Rejoice
Oh gosh...Rosie is 73 to Donna's 50 something years old? Rosie looked 73 yrs old 30 years ago....
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OldSkool
Rosie is probably closer to 75 or older.
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Ham
75? Isn't that a *tad* older than donna? donna would only be at most 60, one would think..
In terms of a '"couple" that's quite an age difference, isn't it?
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OldSkool
Considering the couple, any age is just gross.
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