Did Jesus die for everyone and if he did does this mean everyone can be saved
A good question. One that I have been considering for the last few years. I was reading the final chapters of the book of Revelation today. I noticed the 12 gates and the 11 usages of this word for gates in the last two chapters of the bible. I have very good bible study software and was able to examine this very quickly while I am in the midst of a heavy business/work schedule. Revelations chapter 21 begins with,
Rev 21:1-8
21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away." 5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful." 6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
NKJV
From this it looks like the followers and people that know, respect and/or love Jesus Christ are inside what the writer of this book calls the new Jerusalem. Outside of the new Jerusalem it looks like the other people are cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, etc. We have the truthful and loving people inside the New Jerusalem and the liars outside of the new Jerusalem in what is called the lake with fire and brimstone. I don't think the lake of fire will be pleasant for them with the state that they are in. However, I do not think this is all about torture. For example, one of the 12 usages of the Greek word for "burns" pertains to what John the Baptist experienced. Here is the verse,
John 5:35-36
35 He was a burning (Kaioo, which is the same Greek word as in used in Rev. 21:8) and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
KJV
From the Thayer's lexicon, see the partial, but exact quote below. The word for burning can be used as a light showing the right way.
NT:2545
with puri added, Heb 12:18; Rev 8:8; 21:8;
in figurative discourse luchnos kaiomenos, a light showing the right way
Then there is the word "fire" used in Rev. 21:8. In Greek it is the word pur, which is Strong's number 4442. This Greek word is used 75 times in the New Testament. Here are 4 of the usages quoted below. Remember, these 4 usages are the same Greek word that is used in Revelation 21:8 and should help our understanding of what really will go on in the lake of fire.
Acts 2:3-4
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire (pur), and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
KJV
1 Cor 3:13-15
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire (pur); and the fire (pur) shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned (this Greek word is used 5 times in the book of Revelation), he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire (pur).
KJV
So it looks like when we gain more knowledge by seeing how the Greek words in Revelation 21:8 are used elsewhere in the New Testament, we realize that the lake of Fire, could have a cleansing affect on those who are in it. In addition to the discomfort and troubles they may experience. But then people today experience trouble and discomfort and hopefully can overcome at least some of it in their lifetime and hopefully learn and grow from the experience. So to sum things up the lake of Fire could be a lake of purification for those who are in it.
Getting back to the 12 gates and 11 usages of this Greek word. Try reading the last two chapters of the book of Revelation and think about what is written. Then ask yourself the question, why would God use the word gates if no one was able to pass through the gates into the holy city, the new Jerusalem? If no one outside the gates was ever allowed to walk inside then why even have gates? Why not instead have a barb wire fence or a 12 foot wide brick wall. Of course, it does clearly say that no one that was an evil liar would be allowed to enter the gates to the new Jerusalem. But what if the cleansing affect of the lake of fire purified the sinful nature of the people outside the gates? Then would they be allowed to walk inside one of the 12 gates to the new Jerusalem?
Adding to the above biblical information. Pertaining to the above quoted Revelation 21:8. The word brimstone, which is part of the lake of fire, actually pertains to purification and not torture. If you don't believe me then will you believe the Thayer's Greek to English lexicon?
NT:2303
heion, theiou, to
(apparently, the neuter of the adjective theios equivalent to divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off contagion (but Curtius (1879) Grundzüge der Griechischen Etymologie, sec. 320 allies it with thuoo; compare the Latin fumus, English dust)),
We are told to "purify" ourselves; does that verb related to any of the other words you mention? (Midnight; too late for me right now to get into research!!!)
When you mentioned purify, you are mentioning a similar concept, but different Greek words. At least from the below verse.
1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
NIV
I have very good bible study software on my computer that showed me this very quickly. The name of my software is PC Study Bible.
And I just looked this up in Bullinger's Greek to English lexicon. I have a book copy of this. Here brimstone used in Rev. 21:8 is said to relate to "sulphur used in heathen purifications." This along with "fire from heaven" and "vengeance". Of course, "fire from heaven" is not literal. This is spiritual and figurative. Just like "fruit of the spirit" is not literal fruit, but uses the term fruit to represent godly attributes.
Gal 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
Adding to the above biblical information. Pertaining to the above quoted Revelation 21:8. The word brimstone, which is part of the lake of fire, actually pertains to purification and not torture. If you don't believe me then will you believe the Thayer's Greek to English lexicon?
I think it is a far stretch to say that the use of πυρ in Rev 21:8 is meaning a purifying fire.
When compared to other verses such as
Mat 13:50 And 2532 shall cast 906 them 846 into 1519 the furnace 2575 of fire4442: there 1563 shall be 2071 wailing 2805 and 2532 gnashing 1030 of teeth 3599.
Mat 25:41 Then 5119 shall he say 2046 also 2532 unto them on 1537 the left hand 2176, Depart 4198 from 575 me 1700, ye cursed 2672 , into 1519 everlasting 166 fire4442, prepared 2090 for the devil 1228 and 2532 his 846 angels 32:
Mar 9:45 And 2532 if 1437 thy 4675 foot 4228 offend 4624 thee 4571, cut 609 0 it 846 off 609 : it is 2076 better 2570 for thee 4671 to enter 1525 halt 5560 into 1519 life 2222, than 2228 having 2192 two 1417 feet 4228 to be cast 906 into 1519 hell 1067, into 1519 the fire4442 that never shall be quenched 762:
I am come 2064 to send 906 fire4442 on 1519 the earth 1093; and 2532 what 5101 will I 2309 , if 1487 it be 381 0 already 2235 kindled 381 ?
The use of πυρι translated (with fire) is just simple meaning the word fire. Its usage of the word but the definition does not change. It is the direction of the definition.
It just seems to me the use of πυρ is commonly used as fire and if it were to be used as purifying fire it would need to have it in the context... That it is not in this case.
Then Jesus spoke about the lake of fire
Other depictions of hells eternal uses
Jesus speaks of this fire in Mark 9:45 saying that it shall never be quenched.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 (NASB95)
9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Jude 7 (NASB95)
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
Jude 12–13 (NASB95)
12 These are the men who are 1hidden reefs ain your love feasts when they feast with you bwithout fear, caring for themselves; cclouds without water, dcarried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, 2doubly dead, euprooted;
13 awild waves of the sea, casting up btheir own 1shame like foam; wandering stars, cfor whom the 2black darkness has been reserved forever.
Revelation 20:10 (NASB95)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 14:11 (NASB95)
11 “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
The word for forever and ever in the greek is αιωνας των αιωνων it could also be translated ages of ages.
The description of the lake of fire is enduring and on going... Mark the verses you posted for πυρ is just the usage of the word fire and in the context of Revelations fires meaning is literal fire and nothing anything else.. The duration of the fire needs to picked up from the context not the word itself.
Brimstone greek word Θειον
I don't think brimstone is an indication of purification either...
Jesus used it in Luk 17:29 in reference to Lot "it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed [them] all." KJV
Also if brimstone was use of purification why would it be used in conjunction with the devil, beast and false prophets in Rev 20:10?
" And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever"
Here we have again the lake of fire used with Eternal properties and including the devil, the beast and false prophet...
Even more brimstone is used in the same sentence as for ever and ever...
There is nothing to suggest that brimstone is a purifying symbol.
If one went into the fire, that may help understand it.
Even from the beginning with the flaming sword that keeps the way of tree of life.
That would be the first subject material to explore.
And not so much what all these study books say.
More what is being said to you from in your own heart and life and death in general.
I know about trying to find the answers in books.
Good background, for the spirit to work with mostly.
Just knowing a verse or 2 can help, but not needed.
Depends on when the spirit takes you there.
Like it did John and Paul and many many more.
The first flame, reminds and straitens out your first love.
1 Of seven in Revelations, but it seems the first one is the power of them all.
Even when all the flames are lit. And it's still a journey to meet your Christ.
10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
When it says "fire", this is spiritual and figurative and not literal. Otherwise if it was a literal fire we would all burn to death. For example, when we received the holy spirit in Acts 2, if this was a literal fire instead of bringing in the holy spirit it would have scorched us. Has anyone here gotten a bad burn when receiving the holy spirit?
Most people understand the above. Then when we come to the realization that much of the book of Revelation is figurative and not literal then the questions are what do the figurative symbols represent? The Greek words that I previously shared with you from people that know New Testament Greek should help.
i have too much to say about this topic. i'll try to keep it short.
imho, without the "hospice" context, the scriptures are confusing. even dangerous. no end to the trouble caused.
"ministers of fire" describe those who handle suffering. they enter the flames, walk in the flames, bathe in the flames.
"keys of hell and death" indeed.
every religious tradition under the sun, in their highest most developed forms, involve those who serve the sick and dying.
this includes actual practices to prepare one for such service as a way to keep from simply causing more harm.
to purify one's self is to burn off shadows of self-delusion and ignorance by actually practicing being alone with God A LOT.
very much like actually practicing dying as a way to understand dying. sit down, be quiet and still. often.
eyes of fire indeed. if we dare to look inside long enough to shed light on what is hidden.
the more self-aware one becomes, the more times one has been humiliated and disillusioned. even our very definition of self changes many times.
the less aware of a self we remain...the more like sleepwakers we are. racing around trying to fix and save people and nations and cultures, but basically leaving a trail of tears.
modern military industrial strength Christianity is going in an opposite direction. the focus is on beliefs, membership, word-studies, supernatural powers and beings.
notions of direct experiences of God are dismissed or considered to be reserved for special mythological dead people...and there are essentially no actual practices from Christian history being applied.
especially those that are designed to shed light on the interior life.
fear and loathing of "inner flames" results in such an unconscious lack of self-examination.
but there is no way around the flames...only through.
When it says "fire", this is spiritual and figurative and not literal. Otherwise if it was a literal fire we would all burn to death. For example, when we received the holy spirit in Acts 2, if this was a literal fire instead of bringing in the holy spirit it would have scorched us. Has anyone here gotten a bad burn when receiving the holy spirit?
Most people understand the above. Then when we come to the realization that much of the book of Revelation is figurative and not literal then the questions are what do the figurative symbols represent? The Greek words that I previously shared with you from people that know New Testament Greek should help.
imho, when it comes to interpreting the symbols and metaphors, the greek words may only help a little more than the english words, but not much. Because a literal interpretation of a greek word is still a literal interpretation. Same with any other language.
Comparing archetypes of the Bible to patterns of archetypes in other world scriptures and histories as well as non-scriptural literure may help a lot too. Joseph Cambell's or Carl Jung's work, for example. Like them, I find that the Bible makes more sense when compared to everything else like this. And it only becomes more significant and irreplacable as such.
Comparing the Bible to the world's "sacred books of living and dying" for example. The heavy fiery metaphors of the Revelation may make more sense when seen in light of our relationship with suffering and dying. Not supernatural otherworldly dimensions, but the extra-ordinary experiences of aging and dying that all human beings encounter. It may be that the Revelation is an instructional riddle written for ancient monks and nuns to understand human nature more clearly so that they may serve in the fields of greatest suffering...and so the judeo-christian roots of medicine and history of hospitals are all wrapped up in this book.
So in the end, like others, we may find that the universal mind of Christ is just that...universal. Like a finger pointing at the moon, the language of scripture is pointing to something quite beyond the limits of language, and therefore beyond the ethnic boundaries of proper names. and so pointing at the same moon that other languages are pointing at. And so the language can be a trap. We can spend a long time looking at the finger instead of the moon.
like you said...what do the figurative symbols represent? they are pointing at something else. much like the arts of dream interpretation. a dream about a house is typically not really about a house, yet quite about somewhere we inhabit.
what about candles? thronerooms? winged beasts? horsemen? seals? could these represent very important aspects and insights regarding the soul and psyche? different stages and layers and forces that drive us from the inside, both individually and collectively? i think so. to unlock these are to understand how we work...and so more capable to stop ourselves from adding to the world's problems.
but again, this is inward stuff almost completely avoided and dismissed by our western materialist objectivist literalist type approaches to interpreting scripture...both science and religion. we will never unlock the mysteries unless we step foot in the actual territory it is describing...which is at the heart of prayer.
the outer darkness being a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth may refer to the grief and suffering that results from the lack of inward examination.
When it says "fire", this is spiritual and figurative and not literal. Otherwise if it was a literal fire we would all burn to death. For example, when we received the holy spirit in Acts 2, if this was a literal fire instead of bringing in the holy spirit it would have scorched us. Has anyone here gotten a bad burn when receiving the holy spirit?
Most people understand the above. Then when we come to the realization that much of the book of Revelation is figurative and not literal then the questions are what do the figurative symbols represent? The Greek words that I previously shared with you from people that know New Testament Greek should help.
There is nothing in the revelation texts to suggest figurative use of fire....
Also in my NT quotes above both from mark 25 and 9 having Jesus calling hell real and eternal..
Jesus used the word πυρ fire
It is a logical fallacy to say since fire is figurative in one place... It is figurative everywhere else like in acts..
All uses of fire in hell that I have read the context inferred literal fire and literal eternal time.
I do have a understanding of NT Greek and The books I have read most say that the use of fire is literal
Jesus used imagery to show that not everyone was going to heaven... I am not at my computer so I can't look it up but I trust you guys can find them
1st
Jesus said the road to life is narrow and very few find it.
2nd
Not everyone who says to me Lord will make it into heaven
3rd
The example of the seed interacting with the rock,thorns, good soil and others
there are other examples of Jesus claiming not everyone will make it..
I think it is a good start.
How do theses compare with the famous John 3:16?
I go back and forth on this topic because they almost contradict each other.... I understand free will... But it does baffle me.
Naten00, if you really think all the many symbols in the book of Revelation are literal, then you need a better foundational understanding of the book of Revelation. Try reading the below from the Nelson Bible Dictionary.
REVELATION OF JOHN
The last book of the Bible, and the only book of APOCALYPTIC LITERATURE in the New Testament. Apocalypse, the title of this book in the original Greek, means "unveiling" or "disclosure" of hidden things known only to God. Other examples of apocalyptic literature can be found in the Old Testament in Daniel (chaps. Dan), Isaiah (24-27), Ezekiel (chaps. 37-41), and Zechariah (chaps. 9-12).
Like its counterparts, the Book of Revelation depicts the end of the present age and the coming of God's future kingdom through symbols, images, and numbers. These symbols include an angel whose legs are pillars of fire, men who ride on horses while smiting the earth with plagues of destruction, and a fiery red dragon with seven heads and ten horns who crouches before a heavenly woman about to deliver a child.
Why was apocalyptic literature written in such imagery? One reason is that these books were written in dangerous times when it was safer to hide one's message in imags than to speak plainly. Moreover, the symbolism preserved an element of mystery about details of time and place. The purpose of such symbolism, however, was not to confuse, but to inform and strengthen believers in the face of persecution.
Although the keys to some symbols have been lost, the overall message of this book is clear: God is all-powerful. No countermoves of the devil, no matter how strong, can frustrate the righteous purposes of God.
There are a few versions of this, but here is an easy to read and comprehend version.
1 Cor 13:11-12
11 It's like this: when I was a child I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child does. But when I became a man my thoughts grew far beyond those of my childhood, and now I have put away the childish things. 12 In the same way, we can see and understand only a little about God now, as if we were peering at his reflection in a poor mirror; but someday we are going to see him in his completeness, face to face. Now all that I know is hazy and blurred, but then I will see everything clearly, just as clearly as God sees into my heart right now.
The Living Bible
And here is the King James Version.
1 Cor 13:11-12
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
i think a key point of that passage involves stages in the life of a human ego...or self-sense. just as there is a moment in our childhood when we recognize that the face in the mirror is also ours, there can be a moment in our adulthood when we recognize that the face in the mirror is also God's. And this state/stage typically does not come until we are in the last half of life...or close to the end. Sometimes even injuries or suffering can bring us there, momentarily or "permanently."
"but then shall i know even as i am known"...or "as I AM is known." this a point of view that Abraham, Moses and Jesus...even the Buddha and others...claimed was possible. A recognition of the original ground of our being. As if the floor of our very subjective position is like a forest...and for a time, we become like a leaf who looks at the tree and mistakingly thinks the tree (or the forest) is an "other". but if we speak of tree...we include all the leaves. like if we speak of ocean...we include all the waves.
which is why the contemplative side of judeo-christian history involved practices to help us become more accident prone to being able to realize the scope of our "witness." to see God as the background of our very nature. we do not become one with God (except in language), but rather we wake up to how we are already always one with this infinite field of clarity and creation that everything is happening in...right now. the very nature of how we are experiencing the world is "God." Consciousness on a cosmic scale...and we are already saturated and soaked from head to toe.
in this sense, "to love your neighbor as your self" is not as much a statement of the golden rule, but a statement about identity. in the end, there is no "other" ...except in language. This is why a mirror is used. So that we look within to see Christ and God. It is the most direct and immediate path.
seeking God and Christ outside of the self leads to weeping and gnashing of teeth in the darkness. Like trying to find out who this other person is on the other side of the mirror.
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Mark Sanguinetti
A good question. One that I have been considering for the last few years. I was reading the final chapters of the book of Revelation today. I noticed the 12 gates and the 11 usages of this word for gates in the last two chapters of the bible. I have very good bible study software and was able to examine this very quickly while I am in the midst of a heavy business/work schedule. Revelations chapter 21 begins with,
From this it looks like the followers and people that know, respect and/or love Jesus Christ are inside what the writer of this book calls the new Jerusalem. Outside of the new Jerusalem it looks like the other people are cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, etc. We have the truthful and loving people inside the New Jerusalem and the liars outside of the new Jerusalem in what is called the lake with fire and brimstone. I don't think the lake of fire will be pleasant for them with the state that they are in. However, I do not think this is all about torture. For example, one of the 12 usages of the Greek word for "burns" pertains to what John the Baptist experienced. Here is the verse,
From the Thayer's lexicon, see the partial, but exact quote below. The word for burning can be used as a light showing the right way.
Then there is the word "fire" used in Rev. 21:8. In Greek it is the word pur, which is Strong's number 4442. This Greek word is used 75 times in the New Testament. Here are 4 of the usages quoted below. Remember, these 4 usages are the same Greek word that is used in Revelation 21:8 and should help our understanding of what really will go on in the lake of fire.
So it looks like when we gain more knowledge by seeing how the Greek words in Revelation 21:8 are used elsewhere in the New Testament, we realize that the lake of Fire, could have a cleansing affect on those who are in it. In addition to the discomfort and troubles they may experience. But then people today experience trouble and discomfort and hopefully can overcome at least some of it in their lifetime and hopefully learn and grow from the experience. So to sum things up the lake of Fire could be a lake of purification for those who are in it.
Getting back to the 12 gates and 11 usages of this Greek word. Try reading the last two chapters of the book of Revelation and think about what is written. Then ask yourself the question, why would God use the word gates if no one was able to pass through the gates into the holy city, the new Jerusalem? If no one outside the gates was ever allowed to walk inside then why even have gates? Why not instead have a barb wire fence or a 12 foot wide brick wall. Of course, it does clearly say that no one that was an evil liar would be allowed to enter the gates to the new Jerusalem. But what if the cleansing affect of the lake of fire purified the sinful nature of the people outside the gates? Then would they be allowed to walk inside one of the 12 gates to the new Jerusalem?
Something to think about and consider.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Adding to the above biblical information. Pertaining to the above quoted Revelation 21:8. The word brimstone, which is part of the lake of fire, actually pertains to purification and not torture. If you don't believe me then will you believe the Thayer's Greek to English lexicon?
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Twinky
Interesting stuff about the "lake," Mark.
We are told to "purify" ourselves; does that verb related to any of the other words you mention? (Midnight; too late for me right now to get into research!!!)
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Mark Sanguinetti
Hi Twinky:
When you mentioned purify, you are mentioning a similar concept, but different Greek words. At least from the below verse.
1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
NIV
I have very good bible study software on my computer that showed me this very quickly. The name of my software is PC Study Bible.
And I just looked this up in Bullinger's Greek to English lexicon. I have a book copy of this. Here brimstone used in Rev. 21:8 is said to relate to "sulphur used in heathen purifications." This along with "fire from heaven" and "vengeance". Of course, "fire from heaven" is not literal. This is spiritual and figurative. Just like "fruit of the spirit" is not literal fruit, but uses the term fruit to represent godly attributes.
Gal 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
NIV
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cman
Is that all there is in us?
Or is there more we have to offer.
What will survive the lake of fire?
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Naten00
I think it is a far stretch to say that the use of πυρ in Rev 21:8 is meaning a purifying fire.
When compared to other verses such as
Mat 13:50 And 2532 shall cast 906 them 846 into 1519 the furnace 2575 of fire4442: there 1563 shall be 2071 wailing 2805 and 2532 gnashing 1030 of teeth 3599.
Mat 25:41 Then 5119 shall he say 2046 also 2532 unto them on 1537 the left hand 2176, Depart 4198 from 575 me 1700, ye cursed 2672 , into 1519 everlasting 166 fire4442, prepared 2090 for the devil 1228 and 2532 his 846 angels 32:
Mar 9:45 And 2532 if 1437 thy 4675 foot 4228 offend 4624 thee 4571, cut 609 0 it 846 off 609 : it is 2076 better 2570 for thee 4671 to enter 1525 halt 5560 into 1519 life 2222, than 2228 having 2192 two 1417 feet 4228 to be cast 906 into 1519 hell 1067, into 1519 the fire4442 that never shall be quenched 762:
I am come 2064 to send 906 fire4442 on 1519 the earth 1093; and 2532 what 5101 will I 2309 , if 1487 it be 381 0 already 2235 kindled 381 ?
The use of πυρι translated (with fire) is just simple meaning the word fire. Its usage of the word but the definition does not change. It is the direction of the definition.
It just seems to me the use of πυρ is commonly used as fire and if it were to be used as purifying fire it would need to have it in the context... That it is not in this case.
Then Jesus spoke about the lake of fire
Other depictions of hells eternal uses
Jesus speaks of this fire in Mark 9:45 saying that it shall never be quenched.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 (NASB95)
9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Jude 7 (NASB95)
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
Jude 12–13 (NASB95)
12 These are the men who are 1hidden reefs ain your love feasts when they feast with you bwithout fear, caring for themselves; cclouds without water, dcarried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, 2doubly dead, euprooted;
13 awild waves of the sea, casting up btheir own 1shame like foam; wandering stars, cfor whom the 2black darkness has been reserved forever.
Revelation 20:10 (NASB95)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 14:11 (NASB95)
11 “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
The word for forever and ever in the greek is αιωνας των αιωνων it could also be translated ages of ages.
The description of the lake of fire is enduring and on going... Mark the verses you posted for πυρ is just the usage of the word fire and in the context of Revelations fires meaning is literal fire and nothing anything else.. The duration of the fire needs to picked up from the context not the word itself.
Brimstone greek word Θειον
I don't think brimstone is an indication of purification either...
Jesus used it in Luk 17:29 in reference to Lot "it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed [them] all." KJV
Also if brimstone was use of purification why would it be used in conjunction with the devil, beast and false prophets in Rev 20:10?
" And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever"
Here we have again the lake of fire used with Eternal properties and including the devil, the beast and false prophet...
Even more brimstone is used in the same sentence as for ever and ever...
There is nothing to suggest that brimstone is a purifying symbol.
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cman
If one went into the fire, that may help understand it.
Even from the beginning with the flaming sword that keeps the way of tree of life.
That would be the first subject material to explore.
And not so much what all these study books say.
More what is being said to you from in your own heart and life and death in general.
I know about trying to find the answers in books.
Good background, for the spirit to work with mostly.
Just knowing a verse or 2 can help, but not needed.
Depends on when the spirit takes you there.
Like it did John and Paul and many many more.
The first flame, reminds and straitens out your first love.
1 Of seven in Revelations, but it seems the first one is the power of them all.
Even when all the flames are lit. And it's still a journey to meet your Christ.
10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
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Mark Sanguinetti
When it says "fire", this is spiritual and figurative and not literal. Otherwise if it was a literal fire we would all burn to death. For example, when we received the holy spirit in Acts 2, if this was a literal fire instead of bringing in the holy spirit it would have scorched us. Has anyone here gotten a bad burn when receiving the holy spirit?
Most people understand the above. Then when we come to the realization that much of the book of Revelation is figurative and not literal then the questions are what do the figurative symbols represent? The Greek words that I previously shared with you from people that know New Testament Greek should help.
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sirguessalot
i have too much to say about this topic. i'll try to keep it short.
imho, without the "hospice" context, the scriptures are confusing. even dangerous. no end to the trouble caused.
"ministers of fire" describe those who handle suffering. they enter the flames, walk in the flames, bathe in the flames.
"keys of hell and death" indeed.
every religious tradition under the sun, in their highest most developed forms, involve those who serve the sick and dying.
this includes actual practices to prepare one for such service as a way to keep from simply causing more harm.
to purify one's self is to burn off shadows of self-delusion and ignorance by actually practicing being alone with God A LOT.
very much like actually practicing dying as a way to understand dying. sit down, be quiet and still. often.
eyes of fire indeed. if we dare to look inside long enough to shed light on what is hidden.
the more self-aware one becomes, the more times one has been humiliated and disillusioned. even our very definition of self changes many times.
the less aware of a self we remain...the more like sleepwakers we are. racing around trying to fix and save people and nations and cultures, but basically leaving a trail of tears.
modern military industrial strength Christianity is going in an opposite direction. the focus is on beliefs, membership, word-studies, supernatural powers and beings.
notions of direct experiences of God are dismissed or considered to be reserved for special mythological dead people...and there are essentially no actual practices from Christian history being applied.
especially those that are designed to shed light on the interior life.
fear and loathing of "inner flames" results in such an unconscious lack of self-examination.
but there is no way around the flames...only through.
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cman
that's a lot, for keeping it short sirg :)
i'll add that 'those who serve the sick and dying'
serve many from birth to death, as in newborn to the end/beginning
true it's not addressed in any form to capture in Christianity for the most part
though it should be
a child can understand and see it.....and only a child....
we get older and muddy the clearness of life and death with what we think we want
a child can see a bird die, a relative, or friend
and there should be answers from those who have seen it
but they are far and few between, in the west mostly
though in many circles these are mixing....finally
yes practices to prepare
not for that we can bring the fire upon our selves by our own wills
cause we are not in charge of Christ
try to take charge and the harm can occur to others as well
the spirit moves on the face of the waters
and when it says let there be light, the eyes open, the ears hear
if one is not blinded by being stuck in one or a few ideas of-
who we really are
what is in us
and what is with us
and always has been
certainly no short answer for that one
but enough to knock one off their horse
and seek.......and find more then you bargained for
or thought possible
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cman
there it is
hidden in plain sight
i've run from from it
tried to tame it
conquer it
examine it
put it far from me
escape it
instead of looking in it's direction
and let it work it's work like i never believe
it's a consuming fire
drawing every man
circling like a black hole
scattering new worlds of flame
full of new life
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cman
well anyway....
i'm not 'Christian Universalism'
whatever that means
i'm more like
whatever it is we will experience
you will
whatever label or none
we will be face to face
with something more powerful then both faces
then only one face left
when we finally see it is that way
from the beginning
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sirguessalot
amens...amens
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sirguessalot
imho, when it comes to interpreting the symbols and metaphors, the greek words may only help a little more than the english words, but not much. Because a literal interpretation of a greek word is still a literal interpretation. Same with any other language.
Comparing archetypes of the Bible to patterns of archetypes in other world scriptures and histories as well as non-scriptural literure may help a lot too. Joseph Cambell's or Carl Jung's work, for example. Like them, I find that the Bible makes more sense when compared to everything else like this. And it only becomes more significant and irreplacable as such.
Comparing the Bible to the world's "sacred books of living and dying" for example. The heavy fiery metaphors of the Revelation may make more sense when seen in light of our relationship with suffering and dying. Not supernatural otherworldly dimensions, but the extra-ordinary experiences of aging and dying that all human beings encounter. It may be that the Revelation is an instructional riddle written for ancient monks and nuns to understand human nature more clearly so that they may serve in the fields of greatest suffering...and so the judeo-christian roots of medicine and history of hospitals are all wrapped up in this book.
So in the end, like others, we may find that the universal mind of Christ is just that...universal. Like a finger pointing at the moon, the language of scripture is pointing to something quite beyond the limits of language, and therefore beyond the ethnic boundaries of proper names. and so pointing at the same moon that other languages are pointing at. And so the language can be a trap. We can spend a long time looking at the finger instead of the moon.
like you said...what do the figurative symbols represent? they are pointing at something else. much like the arts of dream interpretation. a dream about a house is typically not really about a house, yet quite about somewhere we inhabit.
what about candles? thronerooms? winged beasts? horsemen? seals? could these represent very important aspects and insights regarding the soul and psyche? different stages and layers and forces that drive us from the inside, both individually and collectively? i think so. to unlock these are to understand how we work...and so more capable to stop ourselves from adding to the world's problems.
but again, this is inward stuff almost completely avoided and dismissed by our western materialist objectivist literalist type approaches to interpreting scripture...both science and religion. we will never unlock the mysteries unless we step foot in the actual territory it is describing...which is at the heart of prayer.
the outer darkness being a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth may refer to the grief and suffering that results from the lack of inward examination.
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Naten00
There is nothing in the revelation texts to suggest figurative use of fire....
Also in my NT quotes above both from mark 25 and 9 having Jesus calling hell real and eternal..
Jesus used the word πυρ fire
It is a logical fallacy to say since fire is figurative in one place... It is figurative everywhere else like in acts..
All uses of fire in hell that I have read the context inferred literal fire and literal eternal time.
I do have a understanding of NT Greek and The books I have read most say that the use of fire is literal
Jesus used imagery to show that not everyone was going to heaven... I am not at my computer so I can't look it up but I trust you guys can find them
1st
Jesus said the road to life is narrow and very few find it.
2nd
Not everyone who says to me Lord will make it into heaven
3rd
The example of the seed interacting with the rock,thorns, good soil and others
there are other examples of Jesus claiming not everyone will make it..
I think it is a good start.
How do theses compare with the famous John 3:16?
I go back and forth on this topic because they almost contradict each other.... I understand free will... But it does baffle me.
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Ham
if it makes any difference..
what makes you think existence inside of the gates to be any more pleasurable than that without..
I mean.. the kind of agreements you have to make to get in..
if one is a "savage".. life outside of the gates is a paradise..
just a thought.
maybe we are deluged with too many metaphors..
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Mark Sanguinetti
Here is a link to a web site that I authored on this subject:
Christian Universalism
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cman
Ham, is there only one moment to choose or one time to make a choice.
Is there only one or two options?
Too black and white for me I think.
Plenty of time and to see lots of things not considered yet.
Far beyond these few years in our current situations.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Naten00, if you really think all the many symbols in the book of Revelation are literal, then you need a better foundational understanding of the book of Revelation. Try reading the below from the Nelson Bible Dictionary.
REVELATION OF JOHN
The last book of the Bible, and the only book of APOCALYPTIC LITERATURE in the New Testament. Apocalypse, the title of this book in the original Greek, means "unveiling" or "disclosure" of hidden things known only to God. Other examples of apocalyptic literature can be found in the Old Testament in Daniel (chaps. Dan), Isaiah (24-27), Ezekiel (chaps. 37-41), and Zechariah (chaps. 9-12).
Like its counterparts, the Book of Revelation depicts the end of the present age and the coming of God's future kingdom through symbols, images, and numbers. These symbols include an angel whose legs are pillars of fire, men who ride on horses while smiting the earth with plagues of destruction, and a fiery red dragon with seven heads and ten horns who crouches before a heavenly woman about to deliver a child.
Why was apocalyptic literature written in such imagery? One reason is that these books were written in dangerous times when it was safer to hide one's message in imags than to speak plainly. Moreover, the symbolism preserved an element of mystery about details of time and place. The purpose of such symbolism, however, was not to confuse, but to inform and strengthen believers in the face of persecution.
Although the keys to some symbols have been lost, the overall message of this book is clear: God is all-powerful. No countermoves of the devil, no matter how strong, can frustrate the righteous purposes of God.
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright ©1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
And yes, Cman. Our vision of the prophetic future is childlike and we see through a glass darkly according to 1 Corinthians 13.
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Ham
Yeah. I think the same.
I've woken up from a dream sometimes, to still be within a dream..
maybe we have every moment to make a choice...
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cman
yeah, prophetic, as in, we now know, cause it's already with us
childlike cause the glass is a mirror
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Mark Sanguinetti
There are a few versions of this, but here is an easy to read and comprehend version.
And here is the King James Version.
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sirguessalot
i think a key point of that passage involves stages in the life of a human ego...or self-sense. just as there is a moment in our childhood when we recognize that the face in the mirror is also ours, there can be a moment in our adulthood when we recognize that the face in the mirror is also God's. And this state/stage typically does not come until we are in the last half of life...or close to the end. Sometimes even injuries or suffering can bring us there, momentarily or "permanently."
"but then shall i know even as i am known"...or "as I AM is known." this a point of view that Abraham, Moses and Jesus...even the Buddha and others...claimed was possible. A recognition of the original ground of our being. As if the floor of our very subjective position is like a forest...and for a time, we become like a leaf who looks at the tree and mistakingly thinks the tree (or the forest) is an "other". but if we speak of tree...we include all the leaves. like if we speak of ocean...we include all the waves.
which is why the contemplative side of judeo-christian history involved practices to help us become more accident prone to being able to realize the scope of our "witness." to see God as the background of our very nature. we do not become one with God (except in language), but rather we wake up to how we are already always one with this infinite field of clarity and creation that everything is happening in...right now. the very nature of how we are experiencing the world is "God." Consciousness on a cosmic scale...and we are already saturated and soaked from head to toe.
in this sense, "to love your neighbor as your self" is not as much a statement of the golden rule, but a statement about identity. in the end, there is no "other" ...except in language. This is why a mirror is used. So that we look within to see Christ and God. It is the most direct and immediate path.
seeking God and Christ outside of the self leads to weeping and gnashing of teeth in the darkness. Like trying to find out who this other person is on the other side of the mirror.
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