I remember R.S. from my days in Columbus in the 1980s. He owned his own company. He adopted a policy of paying his employees only what they needed to survive. This is something that came down directly from HQ. It was called a "needs basis". I strongly disagreed with it but my wife (at the time) was of the opinion that, if it came from HQ, it must have come from God. We argued about it regularly. It's one of the contributing factors to our eventual divorce. It's one thing to sit in Sunday School and trade interpretations of a passage of scripture and an entirely different thing to promote doctrines that affect peoples' lives in profound ways. Those Bozos had no business leading people to believe they had any sort of divine insight on life's weightier matters.
education is also reserved for the elite('s offspring).
Needs basis BS.. below poverty wages. Pell grants.. seemed ok for the dedicated wayfer to provide education for his or her financially neglected offspring..
Health care. Same thing..
why live in abundance when you can exist in poverty?
Maybe, just maybe.. the woman of the house will be called to da manogawd's parlor tonight..
And all the while, we were hawking a "class" that promised its graduates a more than abundant life. Who was supposed to live this promised life? Surely not us, driving clunker-mobiles, forsaking retirement savings and health insurance in favor of giving our money for the furtherance of the greater cause of PLAF recruitment.
In retrospect, the irony is almost comical. You come to a class that promises to unlock the secrets of abundance and what do you witness? The people running the class are reusing disposable cups, brewing yesterday's coffee grounds and stringing chairs that were donated because they couldn't afford to provide their own. It's like going to a musical recital and discovering the performers have yet to take their first lesson.
And all the while, we were hawking a "class" that promised its graduates a more than abundant life. Who was supposed to live this promised life? Surely not us, driving clunker-mobiles, forsaking retirement savings and health insurance in favor of giving our money for the furtherance of the greater cause of PLAF recruitment.
And if the class teachings really can't produce abundance, that's not a problem. All you then need to do is to change the definition of abundance. Just because the common sense definition of "having more than you need in every category" is so obvious, that doesn't matter. All the followers are used to brain washing techniques anyway. All you need to do is put on a fatherly (or motherly) air, and proclaim like you have great wisdom "abundance really is not talking about the physical side of life, but the spiritual side". Thus, you can be sickly, destitute, an outcast from your earthly family and social groups, on welfare, working for less than minimum wage, no health care, no job future, giving 20% of your non-income to TWI, and having every aspect of your life controlled - marriage, family relationships, money, hobbies, friends. But, you still have "spiritual abundance".
They call darkness light, and light darkness. They are in their basest element liars.
Naten00, one of the reasons we were told to "get rid of" our son was that he was adopted and therefore not really our son at all. TWI does not recognize adoption, because they believe that God does not recognize adoption. At least that's what the pi$$ant branch leader told us when he told us to abandon him.
Sorry that happened to you WG. I'm glad you stood up to that and fought for your son. If you hadn't then nobody would. He was given love growing up by you and a chance to succeed that he never would have had. That's more of an example of what JC would do than anything TWI leaders ever did. Jesus was the champion of the downtrodden, sick, the orphans without a home. I'm glad you cared enough to extend that love to him.
All of us are adopted children in our relationship to God in a sense. We have no bloodline birth right.
And all the while, we were hawking a "class" that promised its graduates a more than abundant life. Who was supposed to live this promised life? Surely not us, driving clunker-mobiles, forsaking retirement savings and health insurance in favor of giving our money for the furtherance of the greater cause of PLAF recruitment.
In retrospect, the irony is almost comical. You come to a class that promises to unlock the secrets of abundance and what do you witness? The people running the class are reusing disposable cups, brewing yesterday's coffee grounds and stringing chairs that were donated because they couldn't afford to provide their own. It's like going to a musical recital and discovering the performers have yet to take their first lesson.
And if the class teachings really can't produce abundance, that's not a problem. All you then need to do is to change the definition of abundance. Just because the common sense definition of "having more than you need in every category" is so obvious, that doesn't matter. All the followers are used to brain washing techniques anyway. All you need to do is put on a fatherly (or motherly) air, and proclaim like you have great wisdom "abundance really is not talking about the physical side of life, but the spiritual side". Thus, you can be sickly, destitute, an outcast from your earthly family and social groups, on welfare, working for less than minimum wage, no health care, no job future, giving 20% of your non-income to TWI, and having every aspect of your life controlled - marriage, family relationships, money, hobbies, friends. But, you still have "spiritual abundance".
They call darkness light, and light darkness. They are in their basest element liars.
Yet if one bothers to read vpw, it is obvious that he began the entire
"POWER FOR ABUNDANT LIVING" setup specifically selling
MATERIAL ABUNDANCE, and he says so right in the very beginning
of the Orange Book, "Power For Abundant Living"...
=================================
""Introduction: the Abundant Life.
Jesus' proclamation as recorded in John 10:10 is the foundational Scripture for this book.
...I am come that they [believers] might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
This verse literally changed my life. My wife and I began in the Christian ministry, plodding ahead with the things of God,
but somehow we lacked an abundant life. Then one time I was especially alerted when I read from the Word of God that Jesus said He had come to give us life more abundant. I was startled into awareness. As I looked about me at communities where I had served and among the ministers with whom I had worked, the abundant life was frequently not evident. In contrast to these Christian people, I could see that the secular world of non-Christians were manifesting a more abundant life than were members of the Church. Thus I earnestly began to pursue the question:
'If Jesus Christ came that men and women might have a MORE ABUNDANT LIFE, then why is it that the Christian believers do not manifest even an ABUNDANT LIFE?'
I believe most people would be thankful if they ever lived an abundant life; but The Word says Jesus Christ came that we might have life not just abundant, but more abundant. If His Word is not reliable here in John 10:10, how can we trust it anywhere else? But, on the other hand, if Jesus told the truth, if He meant what He said and said what He meant in this declaration, then surely there must be keys, signposts, to guide us to the understanding and the receiving of this life which is more than abundant.
This book, POWER FOR ABUNDANT LIVING, is one way of showing interested people the abundant life which Jesus Christ lived and which He came to make available to believers as it is revealed in the Word of God.
This is a book containing Biblical keys. The contents herein do not teach the Scriptures from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21; rather, it is designed to set before the reader the basic keys in the Word of God so that Genesis to Revelation will unfold and so that the abundant life which Jesus Christ came to make available will become evident to those who want to appropriate
God's abundance to their lives. "
===========
It's plainly obvious he wasn't saying the secular world of non-Christians had spiritual abundance.
He said he SAW something. That's in the 5 sense category, which vpw said was antithetical to the spiritual.
As in "the battle of the senses vs revelation/faith." That's right out of the same class.
This verse literally changed my life. My wife and I began in the Christian ministry, plodding ahead with the things of God,
but somehow we lacked an abundant life. Then one time I was especially alerted when I read from the Word of God that Jesus said He had come to give us life more abundant. I was startled into awareness. As I looked about me at communities where I had served and among the ministers with whom I had worked, the abundant life was frequently not evident. In contrast to these Christian people, I could see that the secular world of non-Christians were manifesting a more abundant life than were members of the Church. Thus I earnestly began to pursue the question:
'If Jesus Christ came that men and women might have a MORE ABUNDANT LIFE, then why is it that the Christian believers do not manifest even an ABUNDANT LIFE?'
Yes, full of contradictions. The FNC is to sell TWI to the masses. It's only after years of pursuing one's own poverty to help increase the $52M coffers at TWI that the "more advanced" interpretation comes into play.
FWIW, I remember hearing an old variant teaching of that on a tape where VP used the physical example of real butter vs. Oleo at the dinner table where butter represented abundance and he refused from that point to use Oleo.
As I looked about me at communities where I had served and among the ministers with whom I had worked, the abundant life was frequently not evident. In contrast to these Christian people, I could see that the secular world of non-Christians were manifesting a more abundant life than were members of the Church.
I was in college when I took pfal.....and, generally, paid attention to my college professors.
When wierwille made this claim in pfal.......my mind did a double-take, like "that makes NO sense." Wierwille looked around to guage his observation the spiritual abundance of people. My mind caught the discrepancy right then and there.....blam, the premise of this class is incorrect. It really is ironic after all these years to see some of these things have come back to mind.....with glaring inconsistencies.
I don't know any of the apostles who had an abundant life in the way the THE WAY defines abundant...... But for some reason the "apostle" VPW had an abundant life.... Just seems odd.
Naten00, one of the reasons we were told to "get rid of" our son was that he was adopted and therefore not really our son at all. TWI does not recognize adoption, because they believe that God does not recognize adoption. At least that's what the pi$$ant branch leader told us when he told us to abandon him.
Apparently, Ephesians Ch. 1 isn't in their rightly divided brains.
Of course there was one couple we knew who adopted a baby girl with the assistance of the then Trunk Coordinator, but they were WC so I guess the rules were different.
Thanks geisha.... My in laws always start the rhetoric " the rightly divided word says that babies in the womb are not alive" I never understood there failed logic till I read their abuse of scripture..... Someone ought to file charges for abuse.... For how they interpreted those scriptures.... What is sad is how people sit there, listen too it and then hang on there every word.
Naten,
Take any Christian doctrine.....pretend it is opposite day and you have TWI theology. Most of it is backward.....just about everything you believe as a Christian...is either despised by TWI or so mangled it is unrecognizable. They have some of the same verbiage, but for the most part....it means something different.
The damage that was done by their teaching on when life begins will probably not be known until they stand and give an account. I lived in places while in TWI where abortion was common place. Even multiple abortions. Wish I was kidding.
I am not sure when it was said.....but, I remember hearing whispers that the Jesus or name of Jesus used in churches was a "devil spirit" . Something along those lines anyway...it was a long time ago. We used to mock the trinity. Sang mocking songs about it.
If you want to see flames shoot out of a hard core TWIer's head....just tell them the dead ARE alive....Jesus(leave off the Christ) is God......and the Holy Spirit has a personality and is a person. Use that word person. Flash them a cross......and tell them what it means to you.......and just step back.
Maybe they have mellowed, but back when I was in TWI....those were fighting words.
I am not sure when it was said.....but, I remember hearing whispers that the Jesus or name of Jesus used in churches was a "devil spirit" . Something along those lines anyway...it was a long time ago. We used to mock the trinity. Sang mocking songs about it.
I remember this goofiness. Craig lead the charge on this stuff as far as I remember. It no doubt originated with Wierwille with JCNG, but the hardcore meanness in the 90s was all Craig.
I am not sure when it was said.....but, I remember hearing whispers that the Jesus or name of Jesus used in churches was a "devil spirit" . Something along those lines anyway...it was a long time ago. We used to mock the trinity. Sang mocking songs about it.
I don't remember what class it was taught in but the basis for this is II Corinthians 11:4. (It was used out of context and grossly misinterpreted.)
Take any Christian doctrine.....pretend it is opposite day and you have TWI theology. Most of it is backward.....just about everything you believe as a Christian...is either despised by TWI or so mangled it is unrecognizable. They have some of the same verbiage, but for the most part....it means something different.
The damage that was done by their teaching on when life begins will probably not be known until they stand and give an account. I lived in places while in TWI where abortion was common place. Even multiple abortions. Wish I was kidding.
I am not sure when it was said.....but, I remember hearing whispers that the Jesus or name of Jesus used in churches was a "devil spirit" . Something along those lines anyway...it was a long time ago. We used to mock the trinity. Sang mocking songs about it.
If you want to see flames shoot out of a hard core TWIer's head....just tell them the dead ARE alive....Jesus(leave off the Christ) is God......and the Holy Spirit has a personality and is a person. Use that word person. Flash them a cross......and tell them what it means to you.......and just step back.
Maybe they have mellowed, but back when I was in TWI....those were fighting words.
before doing so.
Rub and wear a necklace made out of strung garlic..
Something that I think has escaped us on this thread is the way VPP defined fornication, adultery, etc. According to VPP, only the spiritually underdeveloped still think these are terms relating to the physical realm. Nope, these are spiritual terms. In fact, in the Advanced Class, he even said there was a spirit called the spirit of whoredom that plays a role in people committing "spiritual adultery and fornication". Silly us, thinking adultery was some sort of function involving the human body. Sheesh!
well, I wasn't worried.. I figured it would come back to topic. But did it every really stray?
"fornication" can be only really enjoyed by the spiritual elite.. it wasn't "sex". It was "getting one's needs met.."
"relieving the tension of da manogawd so he could properly *minister* to da flock..
make his job "easier" so to speak.
one has to see it in the "original" to really appreciate it..
abundance? I think it is related. Da manogawd and manogowdesses NEED a trip to the Bahamas to be fully rested enough to make the most important spiritual decisions regarding YOUR life. Of course they do..
Something that I think has escaped us on this thread is the way VPP defined fornication, adultery, etc. According to VPP, only the spiritually underdeveloped still think these are terms relating to the physical realm. Nope, these are spiritual terms. In fact, in the Advanced Class, he even said there was a spirit called the spirit of whoredom that plays a role in people committing "spiritual adultery and fornication". Silly us, thinking adultery was some sort of function involving the human body. Sheesh!
That's a good point, and,
Picture this:
Hot, humid, and soggy,
ROA 1982,
In the Big Tent for WOW training,
Vince Finnegan standing on the main stage saying,
"And all you single WOW's, no sex for the entire year."
First time I ever heard the no sex rule.
So, either VPP and by extension TWI, held contradictory beliefs (oh, say it's not so) or all of us single WOW's were spiritually underdeveloped.
Or maybe all of us single WOW's were spiritually underdeveloped until certain hand-picked chosen ones (usually young females) were "blessed" to have spiritual understanding injected into them by one of the super-spiritual elite.
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waysider
In retrospect, the irony is almost comical. You come to a class that promises to unlock the secrets of abundance and what do you witness? The people running the class are reusing disposable cups, brew
waysider
When I was in FellowLaborers, in the mid 1970s, premarital sex among program participants was strictly forbidden. People were immediately dismissed from the program upon being found out. Years later,
waysider
In a world where technology is constantly changing at break-neck speed, one thing that actually remains constant is the primary nature of man. Monogamy, and its preservation, has been and will continu
waysider
I remember R.S. from my days in Columbus in the 1980s. He owned his own company. He adopted a policy of paying his employees only what they needed to survive. This is something that came down directly from HQ. It was called a "needs basis". I strongly disagreed with it but my wife (at the time) was of the opinion that, if it came from HQ, it must have come from God. We argued about it regularly. It's one of the contributing factors to our eventual divorce. It's one thing to sit in Sunday School and trade interpretations of a passage of scripture and an entirely different thing to promote doctrines that affect peoples' lives in profound ways. Those Bozos had no business leading people to believe they had any sort of divine insight on life's weightier matters.
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Ham
education is also reserved for the elite('s offspring).
Needs basis BS.. below poverty wages. Pell grants.. seemed ok for the dedicated wayfer to provide education for his or her financially neglected offspring..
Health care. Same thing..
why live in abundance when you can exist in poverty?
Maybe, just maybe.. the woman of the house will be called to da manogawd's parlor tonight..
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waysider
And all the while, we were hawking a "class" that promised its graduates a more than abundant life. Who was supposed to live this promised life? Surely not us, driving clunker-mobiles, forsaking retirement savings and health insurance in favor of giving our money for the furtherance of the greater cause of PLAF recruitment.
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waysider
In retrospect, the irony is almost comical. You come to a class that promises to unlock the secrets of abundance and what do you witness? The people running the class are reusing disposable cups, brewing yesterday's coffee grounds and stringing chairs that were donated because they couldn't afford to provide their own. It's like going to a musical recital and discovering the performers have yet to take their first lesson.
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waysider
What's that you say? You have no way to get to the abundance class? Not a problem. I'll stop by and pick you up. I'll be driving this:
.
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OldSkool
Look Mom --- A WOW mobile!
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waysider
Yeah. We must be REALLY moving da werd. The old bird is even attacking our cars so we won't be able to get the "babes" to the class.
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chockfull
And if the class teachings really can't produce abundance, that's not a problem. All you then need to do is to change the definition of abundance. Just because the common sense definition of "having more than you need in every category" is so obvious, that doesn't matter. All the followers are used to brain washing techniques anyway. All you need to do is put on a fatherly (or motherly) air, and proclaim like you have great wisdom "abundance really is not talking about the physical side of life, but the spiritual side". Thus, you can be sickly, destitute, an outcast from your earthly family and social groups, on welfare, working for less than minimum wage, no health care, no job future, giving 20% of your non-income to TWI, and having every aspect of your life controlled - marriage, family relationships, money, hobbies, friends. But, you still have "spiritual abundance".
They call darkness light, and light darkness. They are in their basest element liars.
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outandabout
Where's the greeen bumper sticker?
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chockfull
Sorry that happened to you WG. I'm glad you stood up to that and fought for your son. If you hadn't then nobody would. He was given love growing up by you and a chance to succeed that he never would have had. That's more of an example of what JC would do than anything TWI leaders ever did. Jesus was the champion of the downtrodden, sick, the orphans without a home. I'm glad you cared enough to extend that love to him.
All of us are adopted children in our relationship to God in a sense. We have no bloodline birth right.
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WordWolf
Yet if one bothers to read vpw, it is obvious that he began the entire
"POWER FOR ABUNDANT LIVING" setup specifically selling
MATERIAL ABUNDANCE, and he says so right in the very beginning
of the Orange Book, "Power For Abundant Living"...
=================================
""Introduction: the Abundant Life.
Jesus' proclamation as recorded in John 10:10 is the foundational Scripture for this book.
...I am come that they [believers] might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
This verse literally changed my life. My wife and I began in the Christian ministry, plodding ahead with the things of God,
but somehow we lacked an abundant life. Then one time I was especially alerted when I read from the Word of God that Jesus said He had come to give us life more abundant. I was startled into awareness. As I looked about me at communities where I had served and among the ministers with whom I had worked, the abundant life was frequently not evident. In contrast to these Christian people, I could see that the secular world of non-Christians were manifesting a more abundant life than were members of the Church. Thus I earnestly began to pursue the question:
'If Jesus Christ came that men and women might have a MORE ABUNDANT LIFE, then why is it that the Christian believers do not manifest even an ABUNDANT LIFE?'
I believe most people would be thankful if they ever lived an abundant life; but The Word says Jesus Christ came that we might have life not just abundant, but more abundant. If His Word is not reliable here in John 10:10, how can we trust it anywhere else? But, on the other hand, if Jesus told the truth, if He meant what He said and said what He meant in this declaration, then surely there must be keys, signposts, to guide us to the understanding and the receiving of this life which is more than abundant.
This book, POWER FOR ABUNDANT LIVING, is one way of showing interested people the abundant life which Jesus Christ lived and which He came to make available to believers as it is revealed in the Word of God.
This is a book containing Biblical keys. The contents herein do not teach the Scriptures from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21; rather, it is designed to set before the reader the basic keys in the Word of God so that Genesis to Revelation will unfold and so that the abundant life which Jesus Christ came to make available will become evident to those who want to appropriate
God's abundance to their lives. "
===========
It's plainly obvious he wasn't saying the secular world of non-Christians had spiritual abundance.
He said he SAW something. That's in the 5 sense category, which vpw said was antithetical to the spiritual.
As in "the battle of the senses vs revelation/faith." That's right out of the same class.
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chockfull
Yes, full of contradictions. The FNC is to sell TWI to the masses. It's only after years of pursuing one's own poverty to help increase the $52M coffers at TWI that the "more advanced" interpretation comes into play.
FWIW, I remember hearing an old variant teaching of that on a tape where VP used the physical example of real butter vs. Oleo at the dinner table where butter represented abundance and he refused from that point to use Oleo.
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skyrider
I was in college when I took pfal.....and, generally, paid attention to my college professors.
When wierwille made this claim in pfal.......my mind did a double-take, like "that makes NO sense." Wierwille looked around to guage his observation the spiritual abundance of people. My mind caught the discrepancy right then and there.....blam, the premise of this class is incorrect. It really is ironic after all these years to see some of these things have come back to mind.....with glaring inconsistencies.
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Naten00
I don't know any of the apostles who had an abundant life in the way the THE WAY defines abundant...... But for some reason the "apostle" VPW had an abundant life.... Just seems odd.
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excathedra
this is one of the saddest things i've ever heard
--
abortion -- maybe another time
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geisha779
Naten,
Take any Christian doctrine.....pretend it is opposite day and you have TWI theology. Most of it is backward.....just about everything you believe as a Christian...is either despised by TWI or so mangled it is unrecognizable. They have some of the same verbiage, but for the most part....it means something different.
The damage that was done by their teaching on when life begins will probably not be known until they stand and give an account. I lived in places while in TWI where abortion was common place. Even multiple abortions. Wish I was kidding.
I am not sure when it was said.....but, I remember hearing whispers that the Jesus or name of Jesus used in churches was a "devil spirit" . Something along those lines anyway...it was a long time ago. We used to mock the trinity. Sang mocking songs about it.
If you want to see flames shoot out of a hard core TWIer's head....just tell them the dead ARE alive....Jesus(leave off the Christ) is God......and the Holy Spirit has a personality and is a person. Use that word person. Flash them a cross......and tell them what it means to you.......and just step back.
Maybe they have mellowed, but back when I was in TWI....those were fighting words.
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OldSkool
I remember this goofiness. Craig lead the charge on this stuff as far as I remember. It no doubt originated with Wierwille with JCNG, but the hardcore meanness in the 90s was all Craig.
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waysider
I don't remember what class it was taught in but the basis for this is II Corinthians 11:4. (It was used out of context and grossly misinterpreted.)
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Ham
before doing so.
Rub and wear a necklace made out of strung garlic..
wear a very large silver cross.
carry a few wooden stakes..
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waysider
Something that I think has escaped us on this thread is the way VPP defined fornication, adultery, etc. According to VPP, only the spiritually underdeveloped still think these are terms relating to the physical realm. Nope, these are spiritual terms. In fact, in the Advanced Class, he even said there was a spirit called the spirit of whoredom that plays a role in people committing "spiritual adultery and fornication". Silly us, thinking adultery was some sort of function involving the human body. Sheesh!
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Ham
Ha!
well, I wasn't worried.. I figured it would come back to topic. But did it every really stray?
"fornication" can be only really enjoyed by the spiritual elite.. it wasn't "sex". It was "getting one's needs met.."
"relieving the tension of da manogawd so he could properly *minister* to da flock..
make his job "easier" so to speak.
one has to see it in the "original" to really appreciate it..
abundance? I think it is related. Da manogawd and manogowdesses NEED a trip to the Bahamas to be fully rested enough to make the most important spiritual decisions regarding YOUR life. Of course they do..
proper accommodations.. miraculously trimmed groomed lawns..
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waysider
Jai Guru deva Om
(Praise to the Teacher)
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bfh
That's a good point, and,
Picture this:
Hot, humid, and soggy,
ROA 1982,
In the Big Tent for WOW training,
Vince Finnegan standing on the main stage saying,
"And all you single WOW's, no sex for the entire year."
First time I ever heard the no sex rule.
So, either VPP and by extension TWI, held contradictory beliefs (oh, say it's not so) or all of us single WOW's were spiritually underdeveloped.
Or maybe all of us single WOW's were spiritually underdeveloped until certain hand-picked chosen ones (usually young females) were "blessed" to have spiritual understanding injected into them by one of the super-spiritual elite.
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Ham
What is it.. there is a verse, somewhere.. about someone who hastens to be rich will not be innocent..
god bless them.. the wife of one the corps "men" here.. said boldly.. "you can't blame US of that.."
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