So, Sky, are you saying equality is not a worthy ideal?
Equality of opportunity and upward mobility is a good thing.
Equality of outcome and results is a bad thing.
IMO.....twi was devised to perpetuate a caste system of "equality".....not individual freedoms in christ. The corps/non-corps issue became a major factor in leadership assignments, rather than a merit-based analysis. Why? Because the corps was sanctioned by wierwille to be better spiritual leaders....ie "class-based equality." Yet, I would contend that there were MANY qualified and able men and women who never desired to go corps. Good, solid non-corps leaders were unilaterally deemed unfit.
At headquarters, new corps graduates were systematically replacing the elder staff after August 1978. Were these new hires and assignments based on merit? Or, did it become acceptable that corps-trained equaled obedience....which equaled "more spiritual?"
It always struck me odd that pfal accentuated this unique holy spirit within and that each person manifesting speaking in tongues would be uniquely individual. YET.....by the time I took the advanced class, individuality was a taboo. Now, the 16 keys to walking by the spirit were to be heeded. In fact, wierwille was strikingly adamant to discourage individuality and/or seeking signs....when, in fact, he claimed a sign from God in his "snow-on-gas-pumps-revelation." In hindsight, I'd say that the advanced class put more emphasis on spiritual caution and conformity than it did on spiritual growth and walking with God.
But, to me.....the most alarming aspect of equality-based outcome in twi was the corps program. With each passing year, the numbers swelled with hundreds more in this nebulous pool of conformity. Twi's trustees classified corps grads as spiritual leaders.....which, they interpreted as ready and willing to obey the trustees. This "equality of servitude" gave the trustees untold powers to dictate a corps grad's life.......marriage, career, mortgage, children, hobbies, habits, drinking, smoking, appearance, etc. extending to even those who, years later, were NOT on twi payroll. The "equality of being ready to serve" enervated the powers of one's mind and suppressed all activity towards advancement in life.
Society as a whole faces the equality issue. Public education, grades K-12, give standard access to education.....but that doesn't extrapolate into the same outcome of income, housing, or quality of life. No society can dictate outcome of equality---not even in socialism is this true. In a free society, and a free-market system, advancement should be merit-based....and then, from generation to generation, upward mobility is prized and honored.
Where would today's sports be with equality of OUTCOME standards? Who would desire to go to an NFL game knowing that there would be a standardized OUTCOME? Ridiculous, isn't it? Equality of standard rules.....[eleven men per team, same number of timeouts, goal posts with same standard dimensions, playing field, etc].....YES. But to have equality of outcome? Absurd.
So, Sky, are you saying equality is not a worthy ideal?
Rocky......I would place "fairness" in the same category as "equality."
Most would agree that "fair rules" are the catalyst of good competition. The opportunity to fair play is what many coin as "a level playing field".....neither opponent has a tilted advantage. All sports follows these standard rules of fair play.....gymnastics, boxing, golf, basketball, football, etc.....hence, sports enthusiasts around the world are captivated by the greatest "reality shows" that play out in real time right before their eyes.
"Fairness" or "equality" are also played out on the borders and shores of America.....as immigrants pour in to this country that is based on "the rule of law." The promised land of America is one where everyone has a shot at upward mobility. If you work hard, if you have an idea, if you provide a service that exceeds all others.....you can make it in America.
Fairness or equality of OUTCOME can never be achieved. Hypothetically, even if two sons inherited five million each from their parents' trust.....would THAT instill EQUAL outcome, EQUAL homes, EQUAL lifestyles? Of course not. The very first day that each gained access to their inheritance, thousands of decisions would trigger the eventual outcome. Even identical twins, years later, would have diverse outcomes.
If society were to dictate FAIRNESS EQUALITY......the misery index for all would skyrocket. The "makers" would be forced to give to the "takers".....the employers to the employees......and in rivers of "drunken insanity" society would be turned on its head. Why would the "pigs on animal farm" be qualified as "dispensers of equality?" When the leaders party and vacation.....why can't everyone party and vacation all the time?
In sports, if the fairness doctrine takes root......every kid gets a medal.
Thus, to be "fair or equal".....every NFL player, coach and staff member receives a Super Bowl Ring.
What you did by starting this thread, Sky... is to point out specific cases of where megalomaniacs have used "equality" as a ploy to centralize authority and then misuse that authority. You used lessons of history in political situations to define the early development process of the religious subculture (cult) with which we are familiar. My question to you had been intended to get you to think about whether the problem was the actual issue of equality or something other than that.
The politics forum was put to sleep at greasespot last year. It is not my intent to revive it.
Nevertheless, you answered the question and have your viewpoint. It is not my intent to engage you in discussion on that viewpoint. Rather, I recommend you consider whether or not the actual problem you identified has as its underlying issue whether the problem is humanity's desire for an egalitarian society or whether the problem is the megalomaniac who exploits that aspect of humanity to establish a culture/society that serves himself and his elite (oligarchy).
The instances you cited for comparison purposes are not nearly the only times when equality and the need/desire for it have played a defining role in the establishment of a new nation.
You did NOT cite American (revolutionary and pre-revolutionary) history.
We hold THESE truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal and are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are... etc.
The history of our country since that time has been a vivid drama revolving around tensions between the haves and the have nots.
The actual bottom line is that citing the two examples as you did can shed light on Wierwille and twi. But those two examples are woefully inadequate in proving that there is anything inherently wrong or evil with the concept of egalitarianism.
What you did by starting this thread, Sky... is to point out specific cases of where megalomaniacs have used "equality" as a ploy to centralize authority and then misuse that authority.
In wierwille's corps, there was NO advancement beyond his constraints.
In wierwille's clergy, there was NO advancement beyond his constraints.
As corps AND clergy, I experienced his "equality of norms" amongst these groupings. And further, all that "apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher" lip-service had a two-pronged ploy: 1)it gave public credibility to a "growing" christian movement, and 2)it provided higher levels of service. Yet, at no time.....do I recall senior clergy, or whoever, publically recognized as such. Wouldn't wierwille, this man of god of the universe, have understudies of ministries to support him?
The message was clear......the "equality of servitude" amounted to a nebulous pool of corps grads who spent years, if not decades, in limbo. Even to this day, more corps grads have FINALLY giving up. It doesn't matter how much one achieves......the goal posts are moved further away.
Equality of outcome and results is never achieved. Even amongst the corps.....imo, many of the self-motivated were the first to leave, because of the system. My talks with Rev. St#ve S@nn, 4th corps, took a while to sink it....but it did take hold. He had much higher aspirations than wierwille's pseudo-caste system and, within months, I rarely spoke to him again.
Of course, there are probably several more hundred ways to describe my twi experience......"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." seems kinda apropo at the moment.
Now-a-days ordination is something very nebulous within the way international. I don't understand how it works, and I am not sure there are too many that do. When I was in-residence not a word was spoken about it in terms of requirements, candidate selection, what it really means to the one ordained, expectations once the person has joined the clergy. In all likely hood there are no such things and they want the goal posts mobile.
I'm sure there are recommendations to Rosalie but I can guarantee it is her that makes the final choice. And they are done in private with the ordained usually presented to the household after the actual ordination, this used happening at the advanced class specials when I was around. Though, the ordinations were seldom.
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waysider
It makes me wonder.....
If The Way had waited a few decades to thrust itself upon our society, amidst the current culture, what would it look like?
Maybe it would look like THIS.
(*Any volunteer may be dismissed at any time and/or program cancelled at sole discretion of those charged with oversight.*)
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Rocky
So, Sky, are you saying equality is not a worthy ideal?
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skyrider
Equality of opportunity and upward mobility is a good thing.
Equality of outcome and results is a bad thing.
IMO.....twi was devised to perpetuate a caste system of "equality".....not individual freedoms in christ. The corps/non-corps issue became a major factor in leadership assignments, rather than a merit-based analysis. Why? Because the corps was sanctioned by wierwille to be better spiritual leaders....ie "class-based equality." Yet, I would contend that there were MANY qualified and able men and women who never desired to go corps. Good, solid non-corps leaders were unilaterally deemed unfit.
At headquarters, new corps graduates were systematically replacing the elder staff after August 1978. Were these new hires and assignments based on merit? Or, did it become acceptable that corps-trained equaled obedience....which equaled "more spiritual?"
It always struck me odd that pfal accentuated this unique holy spirit within and that each person manifesting speaking in tongues would be uniquely individual. YET.....by the time I took the advanced class, individuality was a taboo. Now, the 16 keys to walking by the spirit were to be heeded. In fact, wierwille was strikingly adamant to discourage individuality and/or seeking signs....when, in fact, he claimed a sign from God in his "snow-on-gas-pumps-revelation." In hindsight, I'd say that the advanced class put more emphasis on spiritual caution and conformity than it did on spiritual growth and walking with God.
But, to me.....the most alarming aspect of equality-based outcome in twi was the corps program. With each passing year, the numbers swelled with hundreds more in this nebulous pool of conformity. Twi's trustees classified corps grads as spiritual leaders.....which, they interpreted as ready and willing to obey the trustees. This "equality of servitude" gave the trustees untold powers to dictate a corps grad's life.......marriage, career, mortgage, children, hobbies, habits, drinking, smoking, appearance, etc. extending to even those who, years later, were NOT on twi payroll. The "equality of being ready to serve" enervated the powers of one's mind and suppressed all activity towards advancement in life.
Society as a whole faces the equality issue. Public education, grades K-12, give standard access to education.....but that doesn't extrapolate into the same outcome of income, housing, or quality of life. No society can dictate outcome of equality---not even in socialism is this true. In a free society, and a free-market system, advancement should be merit-based....and then, from generation to generation, upward mobility is prized and honored.
Where would today's sports be with equality of OUTCOME standards? Who would desire to go to an NFL game knowing that there would be a standardized OUTCOME? Ridiculous, isn't it? Equality of standard rules.....[eleven men per team, same number of timeouts, goal posts with same standard dimensions, playing field, etc].....YES. But to have equality of outcome? Absurd.
.
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skyrider
waysider......yeah, something like that.
So....postpone your college education and interrupt the student loan process.....for THIS?
Maybe it sounds nifty for a year or so......THEN what? That's the problem.
And, what about career advancement? Even steady jobs are growing more scarce.
They hold SOLE DISCRETION to kick you out overnight.....can't you just feel the love?
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skyrider
Rocky......I would place "fairness" in the same category as "equality."
Most would agree that "fair rules" are the catalyst of good competition. The opportunity to fair play is what many coin as "a level playing field".....neither opponent has a tilted advantage. All sports follows these standard rules of fair play.....gymnastics, boxing, golf, basketball, football, etc.....hence, sports enthusiasts around the world are captivated by the greatest "reality shows" that play out in real time right before their eyes.
"Fairness" or "equality" are also played out on the borders and shores of America.....as immigrants pour in to this country that is based on "the rule of law." The promised land of America is one where everyone has a shot at upward mobility. If you work hard, if you have an idea, if you provide a service that exceeds all others.....you can make it in America.
Fairness or equality of OUTCOME can never be achieved. Hypothetically, even if two sons inherited five million each from their parents' trust.....would THAT instill EQUAL outcome, EQUAL homes, EQUAL lifestyles? Of course not. The very first day that each gained access to their inheritance, thousands of decisions would trigger the eventual outcome. Even identical twins, years later, would have diverse outcomes.
If society were to dictate FAIRNESS EQUALITY......the misery index for all would skyrocket. The "makers" would be forced to give to the "takers".....the employers to the employees......and in rivers of "drunken insanity" society would be turned on its head. Why would the "pigs on animal farm" be qualified as "dispensers of equality?" When the leaders party and vacation.....why can't everyone party and vacation all the time?
In sports, if the fairness doctrine takes root......every kid gets a medal.
Thus, to be "fair or equal".....every NFL player, coach and staff member receives a Super Bowl Ring.
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Rocky
What you did by starting this thread, Sky... is to point out specific cases of where megalomaniacs have used "equality" as a ploy to centralize authority and then misuse that authority. You used lessons of history in political situations to define the early development process of the religious subculture (cult) with which we are familiar. My question to you had been intended to get you to think about whether the problem was the actual issue of equality or something other than that.
The politics forum was put to sleep at greasespot last year. It is not my intent to revive it.
Nevertheless, you answered the question and have your viewpoint. It is not my intent to engage you in discussion on that viewpoint. Rather, I recommend you consider whether or not the actual problem you identified has as its underlying issue whether the problem is humanity's desire for an egalitarian society or whether the problem is the megalomaniac who exploits that aspect of humanity to establish a culture/society that serves himself and his elite (oligarchy).
The instances you cited for comparison purposes are not nearly the only times when equality and the need/desire for it have played a defining role in the establishment of a new nation.
You did NOT cite American (revolutionary and pre-revolutionary) history.
We hold THESE truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal and are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are... etc.
The history of our country since that time has been a vivid drama revolving around tensions between the haves and the have nots.
The actual bottom line is that citing the two examples as you did can shed light on Wierwille and twi. But those two examples are woefully inadequate in proving that there is anything inherently wrong or evil with the concept of egalitarianism.
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skyrider
In wierwille's corps, there was NO advancement beyond his constraints.
In wierwille's clergy, there was NO advancement beyond his constraints.
As corps AND clergy, I experienced his "equality of norms" amongst these groupings. And further, all that "apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher" lip-service had a two-pronged ploy: 1)it gave public credibility to a "growing" christian movement, and 2)it provided higher levels of service. Yet, at no time.....do I recall senior clergy, or whoever, publically recognized as such. Wouldn't wierwille, this man of god of the universe, have understudies of ministries to support him?
The message was clear......the "equality of servitude" amounted to a nebulous pool of corps grads who spent years, if not decades, in limbo. Even to this day, more corps grads have FINALLY giving up. It doesn't matter how much one achieves......the goal posts are moved further away.
Equality of outcome and results is never achieved. Even amongst the corps.....imo, many of the self-motivated were the first to leave, because of the system. My talks with Rev. St#ve S@nn, 4th corps, took a while to sink it....but it did take hold. He had much higher aspirations than wierwille's pseudo-caste system and, within months, I rarely spoke to him again.
Of course, there are probably several more hundred ways to describe my twi experience......"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." seems kinda apropo at the moment.
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OldSkool
Now-a-days ordination is something very nebulous within the way international. I don't understand how it works, and I am not sure there are too many that do. When I was in-residence not a word was spoken about it in terms of requirements, candidate selection, what it really means to the one ordained, expectations once the person has joined the clergy. In all likely hood there are no such things and they want the goal posts mobile.
I'm sure there are recommendations to Rosalie but I can guarantee it is her that makes the final choice. And they are done in private with the ordained usually presented to the household after the actual ordination, this used happening at the advanced class specials when I was around. Though, the ordinations were seldom.
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