Manipulation of One's Consent

[excathedra]

....and, it was Dr.EEHggns, by vp's admission, that got him to take a look at his naked body in a mirror./quote]

oh now i understand why he stood naked in the bathroom of the college wow girls home where i was present when he was getting ready to attend the graduation of my pfal class

i walked past and the door was open and the MAN OF GOD turned fully naked and smiled at me

i'm glad dr. higgins healed of his i insecurities

what a gross pig you were wierwille

[Rocky]

Holy crap!

[OldSkool]

i walked past and the door was open and the MAN OF GOD turned fully naked and smiled at me

I threw up in mouth a little when I read that.....ewwww.... :blink:

[100% Free]

for me, i think the hook was so inviting because of past abuse

this is just what i'm thinking now

i was very insecure deep inside -- had not even begun to discover my "core" self -- so i guess i bought into their definition of my core self

does that make sense?

Makes total sense to me. I was deeply insecure too. I was one of those kids who was unmercifully bullied and abused from grade school all the way through high school.

I was lonely and desperate for love, friendship and acceptance.

I felt safe with them because they were Christian.

Too young and damaged to even have a clue about my core self, so I too bought into their definition of who I should be.

It never really fit.

[100% Free]

Exie;

A lot of us were insecure. The actress Sally Field stated this: "I was raised to sense what someone wanted me to be and be that kind of person. It took me a long time not to judge myself through someone else's eyes."

It is a journey and a process and we come out stronger!

Thanks for sharing that. Going from being the designated peace maker in my family growing up to immediately joining twi- I totally understand what this means.

Standing up for myself has been a learning process, but I really do feel stronger the more I do it. And free.

[johniam]

Makes total sense to me. I was deeply insecure too. I was one of those kids who was unmercifully bullied and abused from grade school all the way through high school.

I was lonely and desperate for love, friendship and acceptance.

I felt safe with them because they were Christian.

Too young and damaged to even have a clue about my core self, so I too bought into their definition of who I should be.

It never really fit.

Did twi tell you in not so many words that the reason you were bullied and abused was because of your believing? I was, as a child, mistreated SOMETIMES, but even back then I thought it was, what amounts to, that's the way the socialogical cookie crumbles. In twi I prayed about stuff like that, but those twi people were not unkind to me and that seemed to make a big difference.

[waysider]

Telling you that your abuse and bullying is a result of your faulty believing is just another way of shifting the blame from the perpetrator to the victim. First and foremost, the so-called "law of believing" is a load of horse apples. They used that stuff to shift any blame away from themselves whenever and wherever it worked to their advantage. Got sick?..... your fault. Got sexually abused?... your fault. Son gets killed crossing the street?....your fault. When oh when are we ever going to get past this crazy idea that you can change things in this physical world around us by simply having the right or wrong thoughts?

[excathedra]

in reference to wierwille turning around naked and smiling, i went to the girl in charge of the way home and the pfal class and told her about it. she explained to me that when you get to a certain place "spiritually" the flesh is like insignificant -- that he was so above such earthly matters.....

i think it was a test to see if i smiled back or something like that

or it could just be a dirty old man exposing himself. in some places that's illegal....

i think i was 19 and he was 58

[JavaJane]

Maybe she meant that he had gotten to the point where his ego was so inflated that he didn't give a $hi+ about offending or being disgusting to anyone... And it was a cheap disgusting thrill. Pervert. Yuck.

[excathedra]

she must have been right -- she did get ordained....

hey, 100% free, this is a song i like when i think of our core selves. love,e

.

[100% Free]

Did twi tell you in not so many words that the reason you were bullied and abused was because of your believing? I was, as a child, mistreated SOMETIMES, but even back then I thought it was, what amounts to, that's the way the socialogical cookie crumbles. In twi I prayed about stuff like that, but those twi people were not unkind to me and that seemed to make a big difference.

I don't remember really.

But now that you say it, I am reminded of my Mother.

She would always tell me "Oh they are just jealous of you". Those words didn't help and certainly didn't bring any comfort.

Yeah right. Everyone was jealous of the girl who was beat up, tortured and verbally abused. Who wouldn't wish to be that? LOL.

I guess she didn't know what to do.

But like you, it did make a big difference the twi people were nice to me. At first.

[DogLover]

==============================================

a la prochaine, on Sep 5 2005, 04:24 AM, said:

WW, Yes, I wanted state that very thing you asked...but thought maybe I should let readers make their own conclusions. I find it very 'strange' that she stayed at the 'Y'. If she was such a dear friend,then why did she not stay with VP at his home??? Perhaps they wanted 'privacy'"

==============================================

I think I may know the answer to that one ... the house where they lived in Van Wert was quite small for a man, his wife, and at that time, three children ...there would have been no guest room, I suspect. The "Y" where Rhoda Wierwille lived for so many years was right next to their home and would have been quite convenient for guests ... I'm not excusing or refuting anything else that's been said here, but from my one snowy day Way International Historic Tour during my interim year in the Corps, I do have some insight onto this particular question.

Edited February 22, 2012 by DogLover

[OldSkool]

I think I may know the answer to that one ... the house where they lived in Van Wert was quite small for a man, his wife, and at that time, three children ...there would have been no guest room, I suspect. The "Y" where Rhoda Wierwille lived for so many years was right next to their home and would have been quite convenient for guests ... I'm not excusing or refuting anything else that's been said here, but from my one snowy day Way International Historic Tour during my interim year in the Corps, I do have some insight onto this particular question.

I appreciate the insight. Personally, and I know others feel this way here as well, I am only interested in the truth about VPW. The truth is the most damaging enemy the way international has.

[OperaBuff]

I like this exchange, found in a recent vampire novel:

“You are a manipulator."

"I like to think of myself more as an outcome engineer.”

― J.R. Ward, Lover Eternal

[Twinky]

in reference to wierwille turning around naked and smiling, i went to the girl in charge of the way home and the pfal class and told her about it. she explained to me that when you get to a certain place "spiritually" the flesh is like insignificant -- that he was so above such earthly matters.....

i think it was a test to see if i smiled back or something like that

or it could just be a dirty old man exposing himself. in some places that's illegal....

i think i was 19 and he was 58

The disgusting old lecher! Even if he were so "spiritually mature that he was above such earthly matters," he knew others who weren't so "spiritually mature" would be about and there he was, putting a stumbling block in their way. (As well as ignoring just a few other scriptures.)

If his body (or covering it) meant so little maybe he should have joined a nudist colony ... but no, probably no gorgeous young women there, just more wizened old prunes like himself.

Disgusting old lecher!!!

[Twinky]

The woman that rang VPW every night and he would share the word that he had learned that day with her ... I remember thinking, during the very session of PFAL where he said this, "Don't you share this stuff with your wife? First? Isn't she interested??"

But hey, while the thought is still forming, the next class segment is starting ... no time to pursue such an idea...

Given the connotations in this thread concerning That Woman...

Dotsie should have hit him with the frying pan a few times. Or whatever the Ohio equivalent was for chastising a straying husband.

[skyrider]

I appreciate the insight. Personally, and I know others feel this way here as well, I am only interested in the truth about VPW.

The truth is the most damaging enemy the way international has.

OldSkool.......yeah, I am in full agreement with you on this.

First of all, I find it ironic how much wierwille's "personal stories" are retained in vivid memory from our twi-days. Were these stories even true? Did this woman call vpw night after night, insisting that she deeply desired "What did God teach you today from his word?" Night after night, week after week......really? After all these years, and after my intense search to uncover the India-itinerary facts that were embedded in Mrs. W's book.....I believe it is fairly safe to say that victor paul wierwille would embellish and exaggerate catching a fish in the wierwille pond.

Secondly, my personal opinion is that DrEEhggns [and Rosal#nd R#nker, as well] were not sexually involved with wierwille during these "private" times. Having started this thread, and it veered from "insecurity" to wierwille's low-esteem and Hggns, supposedly, confronting vpw to stand naked in front of a mirror......still, to me, doesn't implicate these two women on an intimate level with wierwille. Certainly, there is some wording like "pinned against the wall" that does lend itself to double-meanings, etc...but in thoughtful perspective, I hold reasonable doubt of its happenings. And, why would I find it strange for a medical doctor to challenge wierwille on a field that she had given her life and oath.....the human body?

Sometimes, in our back-n-forth postings....I have been known to jab back with a post or sarcastic comment. But I just wanted to be perfectly clear about this, and I'm not totally sure why.....I believe that RRkr & DrHggns maintained proper boundaries regarding wierwille, and moved on. Knowing wierwille's ilk to the extent that most of us do....still doesn't mean that it soiled these two women's character or encroached personal boundaries. All the darkness in a room cannot extinguish the flame of a little candle.

Manipulation has its greatest effect in: 1)extended periods of time, 2)extended isolation or privacy, 3)no proper or legal recourse That is why I believe that staff positions and the corps program were fertile soil for manipulation of one's consent.

.

Edited February 24, 2012 by skyrider

[WordWolf]

I'm fairly confident that at least SOME of vpw's stories were wildly exaggerated, and at least SOME of

vpw's stories were completely invented- fantasies or wishes of what he WISHED had happened.

When vpw began his first pastorate, he claimed he was told he could teach on anything he wanted

EXCEPT MONEY, and then he spent the next 4 Sundays on money.

At the end of 4 weeks, according to vpw, the elders confronted him (the location changed as to where),

and he mouthed off a smart-aleck remark to them, after which they left and left him alone.

Any group with actual elders would have CANNED any new pastor who was so insolent and reckless.

So, I'm certain the whole thing was fiction.

Do you think vpw FANTASIZED about inappropriate contact with those women, and later

convinced himself his lies were true?

[skyrider]

Do you think vpw FANTASIZED about inappropriate contact with those women, and later

convinced himself his lies were true?

WW......I went back and read your post regarding the way: living in wonderland and the references

to "pinned him down" and "backed him up against the wall" and "wrapped around his little finger" and

"she had no interest in talking to the church group....she wanted to talk to vpw"....etc.

First of all, I have made it plainly clear since my WayDale postings (starting about April 1999).....

...wierwille was first and foremost the ilk and cancer of the way ministry. His life, behavior, habits,

manipulations, predations, abuses, toxic teachings, etc. were the inevitable demise of twi. Etc. Etc.

That being said.....I do not believe that wierwille had inappropriate contact with those women. Perhaps,

I have this high regard for RRkr as this missionary woman who "went to hell's gate" to persuade wierwille

that he needed the Lord....and "asking forgiveness at the altar of God's love" was a starting point. All

of wierwille's terminology of "pinned against the wall" was figuratively speaking of a man who was convicted

of irrefutable truth while, his inner soul, was scratching and clawing from its release?

Also, as a missionary.....I don't find it unusual for RRkr to desire one-on-one contact, rather than in a

church setting. To me, that simply shows that she was fixated on wierwille's personal conviction, to go to

the very depths of his soul.....as her lord and savior had done for her.

Concerning DrEEHggns......I tend to believe that wierwille embellished this story for name-dropping purposes.

Here, a "successful" medical doctor wanted to know what wierwille had learned? Wasn't she, at least, 10 years

his senior? It added credibility to his foundational class -- to attact business/professional people and by

the time vpw filmed in 1967, the "story" was exaggerated five-fold, or more?

Like OldSkool stated in so many words......there is just SO MUCH OTHER STUFF REGARDING WIERWILLE......in my

opinion, these two women should not be included in the same sentence with wierwille's predation. That is

simply my reserved opinion until I hear more on the subject.

And.....having started this thread, I wanted to specifically address this since it veered this direction.

[newlife]

I have been out of TWI for 26 years now, and you know what song I found running through my head this afternoon? A song that went something like, "Speak the Word, Speak the Word (let it be heard) Speak the word, Speak the word....I speak the Word every day " By New Horizon.....and I stopped and said, now where did that come from??? I had not been thinking TWI, I had not been singing songs from the ministry. I was just walking down the hallway and suddenly it just started playing in my mind. So TWI stuff crops up in my mind ever so often, mostly at my surprise. Mostly it doesn't Hold my mind any more, but it certainly is not totally without a visit now and then.

To get back on topic though, I think the deception came to me in the form of "Love". And I agree with what one said about VP not setting out to be what he became...

I hear these naked stories and I am astounded. I guess I was so low on the totem pole I never heard or was involved. I feel for those who were....abuse is a terrible thing.

[Ham]

Interesting... In that old church hymn,

, there are references to seeing the stars, hearing the sound of rolling thunder, how we "in awesome wonder, consider all the worlds Thy hands have made", how "Thy power throughout the universe (is) displayed". But, curiously, no verse that describes looking at one's own package in the hallway mirror. What's up with that?

gawd..

cough..

wheeze..

but that is one of the best observations I've seen here, for a long time..

[excathedra]

i do know for a fact when he was back in old church days he was even then trying to cheat on his wife

an "elder" told me

[Rocky]

On 2/14/2012 at 11:09 AM, skyrider said:

but it is notable that a system of indoctrination was developed wherein someone like Rocky, in the above post, notes after 25 years of detachment that "it remains a major aspect of life between my ears." How can that be? And, how is it.....that long-standing followers hundreds of miles away are still fiercely loyal to their doctrines knowing full well that wierwille was a plagairist, a predator and a drunkard?

I attribute it to the fact that we are what we've learned and experienced. Ten years on (35 years after leaving the cult), reflecting on and re-evaluating my experience and sharing insights on GSC are still important to me.

In that ten year span, Charlene wrote a tremendous memoir to benefit her readers with her insight so they (hopefully many) will be able to avoid cultic groups/organizations.

She asked me to write a blurb for Undertow. Here's what I shared:
 

“Undertow is a gift to young people and their families who want to understand the inner workings of fundamentalist cults. Charlene Edge’s experience parallels much of my own twelve years as a follower of Victor Paul Wierwille’s ministry. Undertow sheds light on the decisions, questions, and longings that she encountered, and ultimately worked her way through. In the words of Canadian author Matshona Dhliwayo, ‘Books are kinder teachers than experience.’ May Undertow be a kinder teacher to you than Charlene’s seventeen years in The Way International were to her.” —Steve Muratore, publisher of award-winning political blog the Arizona Eagletarian

Edge, Charlene L. Undertow . New Wings Press, LLC. Kindle Edition.