Proverbs 1:10 My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not.
Yepp!! I came to realize after leaving TWI, and mentally retracing my own exit path, that without a person's consent the way international has NO AUTHORITY! While I was battling it out with Rosalie and her lapdogs I began to understand there was nothing they could do unless I went along with it. Therefore, I developed the attitude of "do your worst!" To me corpse status, networks of supposed brethren, being "allowed" to serve (a.k.a slave) for the way international was all something I could do without. In fact, those things neither defined me or my relationship with God/Christ. Therefore, nothing they could threaten me with mattered.
In hindsight, I didn't need the usurpers trying to dictate my life and relation ships in the first place. They tried to take something that wasn't theirs and supplant themselves in the meantime.
I remember one Saturday night in FellowLaborers, everyone else in the house had gone to do laundry or something. I was there alone, no T.V., no phone, no newspaper, just an empty apartment with no sound or outside stimulus to speak of. I caught a glimpse of myself in a mirror and it was like a surrealistic moment. How did I get here? What am I doing here? How had I deviated so far from where I started that first night I was witnessed to? It was like a feeling of unexplainable and profound depression. Was I possessed? The Advanced Class had taught me that depression is a devil spirit. Eventually, I shook it off, refortified myself by recalling lessons from Dealing With The Adversary, Renewed Mind, and, of course, a remembrance of how we learned in session #7 that bad things happen to those who stop to "consider". So, yes, there was self consent/self delusion involved. But, we made those decisions to consent on a basis of flawed information. It's like buying a car because it has low mileage, only to find out that the odometer has been rolled back. You made the decision to buy the car but, the person who sold it to you purposefully misrepresented its true value. Well, I guess it would be easy to feel dumb about being deceived but you should never feel guilty. The deception wasn't your fault. They own the guilt, not you.
I remember one Saturday night in FellowLaborers, everyone else in the house had gone to do laundry or something. I was there alone, no T.V., no phone, no newspaper, just an empty apartment with no sound or outside stimulus to speak of. I caught a glimpse of myself in a mirror and it was like a surrealistic moment. How did I get here? What am I doing here? How had I deviated so far from where I started that first night I was witnessed to? It was like a feeling of unexplainable and profound depression. Was I possessed? The Advanced Class had taught me that depression is a devil spirit. Eventually, I shook it off, refortified myself by recalling lessons from Dealing With The Adversary, Renewed Mind, and, of course, a remembrance of how we learned in session #7 that bad things happen to those who stop to "consider".
So, yes, there was self consent/self delusion involved. But, we made those decisions to consent on a basis of flawed information. It's like buying a car because it has low mileage, only to find out that the odometer has been rolled back. You made the decision to buy the car but, the person who sold it to you purposefully misrepresented its true value. Well, I guess it would be easy to feel dumb about being deceived but you should never feel guilty. The deception wasn't your fault. They own the guilt, not you.
This was an important distinction to make.
Yes, we gave them the power- they lied to us, and deceived us, and we gave it under false pretenses.
But the deception was theirs, the deception was deliberate- so the guilt is theirs.
We can take back our consent whenever we wish.
Being deceived can affect when or even IF you wish it, however.
I remember one Saturday night in FellowLaborers, everyone else in the house had gone to do laundry or something. I was there alone, no T.V., no phone, no newspaper, just an empty apartment with no sound or outside stimulus to speak of. I caught a glimpse of myself in a mirror and it was like a surrealistic moment. How did I get here? What am I doing here? How had I deviated so far from where I started that first night I was witnessed to? It was like a feeling of unexplainable and profound depression. Was I possessed? The Advanced Class had taught me that depression is a devil spirit. Eventually, I shook it off, refortified myself by recalling lessons from Dealing With The Adversary, Renewed Mind, and, of course, a remembrance of how we learned in session #7 that bad things happen to those who stop to "consider". So, yes, there was self consent/self delusion involved. But, we made those decisions to consent on a basis of flawed information. It's like buying a car because it has low mileage, only to find out that the odometer has been rolled back. You made the decision to buy the car but, the person who sold it to you purposefully misrepresented its true value. Well, I guess it would be easy to feel dumb about being deceived but you should never feel guilty. The deception wasn't your fault. They own the guilt, not you.
waysider.....you covered alot of ground in that post.
1) introspection....taking the time to stop and search "how you got there." To honestly evaluate one's circumstances and the decisions of one's past is quite sobering, for sure. Facing a grim reality has a way of jolting the braincells.
2) indoctrination...you "refortified" thought processes with the organization's material and stopped considering alternatives. How many times I'd done that thru the years! Red flags were flying and I saw them.....and yet, the I had been conditioned to SHUT DOWN CRITICAL THINKING.
3) deception.....twi rigged the odometer and, I'd add, a cheap, flaky paint job. Wierwille knew it from the get-go. The whole dealership is run like that.....the front office, the salesmen, the clerks, and guys in back in the shop. EVERYONE THERE KNOWS!
4) conscience....uppity twi leaders have hardened hearts and a seared conscience. They don't feel shame.....and leaves little wonder why the word "conscience" is detailed 31 times in the NT.
Subtlety indeed. VERY insightful thread. THIS is the essence of twi being a cult.
And yet, how long did it take any of us to figure it out... at least enough to decide it was not what we were going to do with the rest of our lives.
For me, it took 12 years. And it's been 25 or so years SINCE. Yet, it remains a major aspect of life between my ears...
Young adults are so vulnerable...
Rocky......yes, THIS is the essence of twi being classified, by some, as a cult.
Unlike the many bizarre cults like moonies, hare krishnas, people's temple, heaven's gate, branch davidians, etc.....twi offered this christian youth movement that captivated the solidarity of its followers. No selling flowers at airports or meditating for hours in solitude, twi was attracting followers in ways far deeper that public perception could ever imagine.
I contend that wierwille and co. stumbled-bumbled their way into this system rather than some deep sinister masterplan of sorts. Failures are easily documented throughout wierwille's tenure.....but it is notable that a system of indoctrination was developed wherein someone like Rocky, in the above post, notes after 25 years of detachment that "it remains a major aspect of life between my ears." How can that be? And, how is it.....that long-standing followers hundreds of miles away are still fiercely loyal to their doctrines knowing full well that wierwille was a plagairist, a predator and a drunkard?
I contend that wierwille and co. stumbled-bumbled their way into this system rather than some deep sinister masterplan of sorts. Failures are easily documented throughout wierwille's tenure.....but it is notable that a system of indoctrination was developed wherein someone like Rocky, in the above post, notes after 25 years of detachment that "it remains a major aspect of life between my ears." How can that be? And, how is it.....that long-standing followers hundreds of miles away are still fiercely loyal to their doctrines knowing full well that wierwille was a plagairist, a predator and a drunkard?
I agree that wierwille stumbled his way along to become what he was. It really goes to show the importance of a so called man of God to stand upright before God and men. Abuse in God's name, when one supposedly represents God and supposedly speaks for God is extremely damaging to the victim's.
I know first hand. I post on Grease Spot to decompress after being involved for 12 years. Every time I think I have run my course it seems another series of waves come crashing on the beach. I have been out since 2008. I don't think I will ever totally remove the residue left on me by that false ministry. Yet, there a lot of people who caught far worse abuse than I ever did.
I still believe in God and that there will be a day when men will give account. I would hate to be wierwille on that day.
I agree that wierwille stumbled his way along to become what he was. It really goes to show the importance of a so called man of God to stand upright before God and men. Abuse in God's name, when one supposedly represents God and supposedly speaks for God is extremely damaging to the victim's.
And, not just wierwille per se........but the spinning of the web, the stickiness, the vibrations all the way back to the spider who is concealed from the unsuspecting victim. Although there were pockets of outreach....CA, NY, KS, OH, & NC in early days.....wow ambassadors were sent out to establish 'twigs' that would remain faithful to twi. WOWs carried a message of "God is great and personable....and he delivered me. Spiritual abundance in knowing Him is available. Come check out twig." Excited youth reaching others and who ever expected a spider lurking unawares to devour?
Classes and stages of growth....you want to grow, don't you? Who knew that these classes were steps of subtle indoctrination? Even the Renewed Mind class interlaced scriptures to and fro spun in loving-God intricacies.....NOT some mischevious manipulation wherein one would REPETITIOUSLY RECITE WIERWILLE'S WORDS AND REFUSE DEEPER ANALYSIS.
Even the corps program was far more than just its teachings......1)isolation, 2)elitism, 3)corps concepts, 4)peer pressure, 5)elder corps reporting on younger corps, 6)news of world filtered thru twi-spiritualizing, 7)friendships developed, 8)comaraderie to help each other, 9)battling thru tough times, 10)24/7...etc. etc. TO THIS DAY, HOW MANY CORPS GRADS COME TO GS TO EXPOSE TWI'S EVIL? Yet, "they" isolate themselves on that other website and play in their little sandbox of 'corps commitment' or something.
My point......twi has an intricate web of deception that few have ever been able to detail. I have often wondered if wierwille ever stumbled across the writings and books of William James or someone similar to learn psychological methods of indoctrination?
"In William James's lecture of 1896 titled "The Will to Believe," James defends the right to violate the principle of evidentialism in order to justify hypothesis venturing. This idea foresaw the demise of evidentialism in the 20th century[citation needed] and sought to ground justified belief in an unwavering principle that would prove more beneficial. Through his philosophy of pragmatism William James justifies religious beliefs by using the results of his hypothetical venturing as evidence to support the hypothesis' truth. Therefore, this doctrine allows one to assume belief in God and prove His existence by what the belief brings to one's life."
A lot of us were insecure. The actress Sally Field stated this: "I was raised to sense what someone wanted me to be and be that kind of person. It took me a long time not to judge myself through someone else's eyes."
It is a journey and a process and we come out stronger!
wasn't it Dr.EEHggns, by vp's admission, that got him to take a look at his naked body in a mirror?
juuuuuuuuu ,m
I can't quite put my finger on it but there is something very wrong with this scenario. How did a married, supposed pastor happen to find himself engaged in a discussion of naked bodies with a member of the opposite sex?
I can't quite put my finger on it but there is something very wrong with this scenario. How did a married, supposed pastor happen to find himself engaged in a discussion of naked bodies with a member of the opposite sex?
Yeah.....another one of those hidden details or freudian slips of wierwille's past.
, there are references to seeing the stars, hearing the sound of rolling thunder, how we "in awesome wonder, consider all the worlds Thy hands have made", how "Thy power throughout the universe (is) displayed". But, curiously, no verse that describes looking at one's own package in the hallway mirror. What's up with that?
A lot of us were insecure. The actress Sally Field stated this: "I was raised to sense what someone wanted me to be and be that kind of person. It took me a long time not to judge myself through someone else's eyes."
It is a journey and a process and we come out stronger!
Wow. Just wow. I have been trying to put that thought into words for a while now. That quote from Sally Field nailed it. Thank you for posting that. It was this year that I came to realize that I didn't even know what I wanted anymore because I had submerged myself do deeply into what other people wanted of me. I think a lot if that had to do with frowning up in twi.
Even the corps program was far more than just its teachings......1)isolation, 2)elitism, 3)corps concepts, 4)peer pressure, 5)elder corps reporting on younger corps, 6)news of world filtered thru twi-spiritualizing, 7)friendships developed, 8)comaraderie to help each other, 9)battling thru tough times, 10)24/7...etc. etc.
Why the way corps program?
Simple. PFAL was going to die a slow hemorraging death....without the marching orders of a fiercely loyal and disciplined chain of command, all the way back to wierwille himself. The corps program had NOTHING to do with training leadership; the program had all the underpinnings of building a core of class instructors. Without this core nucleus of indoctrinated instructors, pfal would die on the vine.
Like wierwille's Diamond Club where he rallied 75 people to faithfully tithe to 'The Way' in the earlier years, so the corps program would be committed instructors of pfal.....nothing more.
Sure, the corps carried the banner of 'spiritual leadership'.....but wierwille reined them in time and time again. And really, all that corps insignia of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers.....was sugar-coating. How many corps grads were there that were designated as such? Even 'evangelizing' was code word for running pfal classes. The manipulation continues to this day....and how many STILL don't see it?
Yes, even one's vanity can be used against him as a snare. <_<
I can't quite put my finger on it but there is something very wrong with this scenario. How did a married, supposed pastor happen to find himself engaged in a discussion of naked bodies with a member of the opposite sex?
Reread "the way:living in wonderland."
twi loaded his language with a lot of suggestive phrasing when describing his dealings
with her, and then there was a gap in time for a few hours,
immediately followed by vpw asking God for forgiveness and never said WHY.
I can't quite put my finger on it but there is something very wrong with this scenario. How did a married, supposed pastor happen to find himself engaged in a discussion of naked bodies with a member of the opposite sex?
Reread "the way:living in wonderland."
twi loaded his language with a lot of suggestive phrasing when describing his dealings
with her, and then there was a gap in time for a few hours,
immediately followed by vpw asking God for forgiveness and never said WHY.
That's in HIS OWN WORDS.
I was wrong.
Looks like there's 2 different incidents with 2 different women,
I found this in our threads. It's from SNT 214, 10/17/65,
"Light Began to Dawn". vpw, as usual, was speaking.
=======
"...and when we walked back
through the buulding, he introduced me to this woman,
Rosalind Rinker. We got acquainted just in a brief period of
time and somehow or other, it jelled within my heart to say
to her, "Well, why don't you come over to our house and
spend a week?" And she said "Well, I'll just do it." "
"So I said to her,
"Would you like to come for a week or so with us?" And she
said "Yes, I will." I said, "When will you come?" She said
"I'll be there Saturday" or Sunday, I forget which.
Lo and behold, here she came. You know what we did? When she
came, I wanted her to speak to our church group, but she had
no interest in that. She said, "I want to talk to you." And
we sat down in that same office where I'd had this
revelation from the Lord."
"And she took me-that had been through all these colleges and
seminaries and had almost my work for my doctor's degree
finished-she just takes me and winds me around her finger
with the knowledge of God's Word-I didn't know any of God's
Word compared to her."
"And she pinned me down, and she took me into the Word,
ans showed me that it was the Word that counted and not what
a theologian said or what a main said but 'what does the Word
say?' And she pinned me down, and she took me into the
Word, and showed me that it was the Word that counted and not
what a theologian said or what a main said but 'what does the
Word say?' And she kept backing me up against the wall-
whole week long. Just, night after night, day after day,
that's all she did.
So, one evening, after everybody else had gone to bed, she
and I went into the church and we knelt at the pulpit chairs
up in front, and we prayed together, and that was the
second great night of my life. When, during the course of
that weekend, she told me that God was showing her that He
had something very special for me to do, and that I should
teach the Word."
====================================
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I wanted her to speak to our church group, but she had
no interest in that. She said, "I want to talk to you."
========
"how can a woman have this much knowledge of the Word?"
======
And she took me-that had been through all these colleges and
seminaries and had almost my work for my doctor's degree
finished-she just takes me and winds me around her finger
with the knowledge of God's Word-I didn't know any of God's
Word compared to her. I'd quote her some theologian, she
said "That don't mean anything to me. What does the Word
say?" And she pinned me down, and she took me into the Word,
ans showed me that it was the Word that counted and not what
a theologian said or what a main said but 'what does the Word
say?' And she pinned me down, and she took me into the
Word, and showed me that it was the Word that counted and not
what a theologian said or what a main said but 'what does the
Word say?' And she kept backing me up against the wall-
So, one evening, after everybody else had gone to bed, she
and I went into the church and we knelt at the pulpit chairs
up in front, and we prayed together, and that was the
second great night of my life. When, during the course of
that weekend, she told me that God was showing her that He
had something very special for me to do, and that I should
teach the Word.I forget what this all is about, but it's on
the flyleaf of out class on Power For Abundant Living.
And that greatness of God substantiating to her what He had already told me </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Here's the rundown on what I thought was particularly noteworthy...
-she wanted to deal ONLY with him, focusing all her attention on
Mr Humility. Of COURSE he went along.
-yes, he was surprised a woman knew the Bible
-he snuck in references to his attending seminarIES and collegeS
-There's a set of odd, CONSISTENT phrases here.
She "wound him around her finger".
She "pinned him down" -TWICE he says that.
she "backed him up against the wall"
Then they were alone, up after everyone went to sleep.
It's at THIS time where the previous question-
'why is he asking for forgiveness NOW?'-
becomes current.
Is his subconscious choosing of words telling us more than he
meant to? What happened after everyone went to sleep?
And did getting away with it help to make it easier to do again
later to other people?
Remember-he's a control freak.
Who did what, and to whom?
Here's what we know, or is blatantly obvious from vpw's own words.
Rosalind Rinker was a decisive woman (she made decisions at an instant and carried
them out), with a forceful personality (all this "pinning" and "backing").
She dismisses meeting with his congregation COMPLETELY,
and focuses all her attention on him.
She says she wants to meet with him.
vpw, speaking about this time, says she
"winds him around her finger"
"pinned him down"
"pinned him down"
"backed him up against the wall"
"night after night, day after day" (not "day after day, night after night").
After everyone else had gone to bed,
they went alone to the pulpit.
There they spoke, and she told him that he was very special
("she told me that God was showing her that He had something very special for me
to do...").
(<span class="ev_code_RED">interlude??</span>)
Before they leave, vpw prays for forgiveness.
========
So, then,
my questions.....
What did Rosalind Rinker HERSELF have in mind here?
Was there an interlude?
And,
my most interesting question of all.....
<span class="ev_code_PURPLE">Did the hunter become the prey? </span>
We know that before this, EARLIER, that he was prideful, arrogant, boastful,
liked attention.
We know that, EARLIER, he viewed the clergy as a PROFESSION and not a holy calling.
We know that, EARLIER, he preferred books to manual labour.
We know a woman arrives,
focuses a lot of attention on him,
has a forceful personality,
and says he's special.
They go off in private.
vpw prays for forgiveness.
We know that he was a control freak on his congregation LATER.
(I refuse to believe a congregation with elders will have a man ARRIVE,
immediately terrorize his congregation, and just say "ok" without replacing
this wet-behind-the-ears young pup with less than a year outside of school.
They'd have him replaced within the month. Having his seat VACANT is better
than having a screw-up botching up the job. Let elders rotate duties until even
a lukewarm replacement can be found.)
We know that LATER he engages in some activities with a church secretary.
vpw insists that they never fired him-he quit.
We know that LATER he focuses attention on young, impressionable women,
and sometimes resorts to alcohol to lower their inhibitions,
and sometimes resorts to drug to knock them out.
Was there an incident between EARLIER and LATER that channeled his self-centered,
egotistical behaviour into sexual directions?
(snip)
=========
BTW,
pg-210, 211, he speaks about Dr E.E. Higgins. She's the one who would call him up every night, asking what God taught him that day.
======
"God told me to teach the Word of God to others, but He never told me to how many people.
She used to come to Van Wert on weekends.
She'd stay at the "Y".
She'd say it was like coming home.
She gave me my first copy of Bullinger's<BR>How to Enjoy the Bible. She said, when she first heard me teach, that I taught like he wrote, and I'd never met the man or even read his stuff."
"She taught me the great respect and love I have for the human body-the tenderness of it. She loved the body, like I love the Word of God. She just stood in awe of how magnificently it was put together. She rid me of my hang-ups, that false stuff, and taught me the beauty of the human body. We used to talk about the human body-where the life was located."
========
[How many people see that little comment as a dire warning, given 20/20 hindsight?]
WordWolf:
Quote
Actually, I have a followup question for you....<BR>Take a woman this obsessed with vpw-
called EVERY night, visited town EVERY weekend- add that she "rid him of his hang-ups" about the human body,and I ask you,
WHAT happened between them when doors were shut?
a la prochaine, on Sep 5 2005, 04:24 AM, said:
WW, Yes, I wanted state that very thing you asked...but thought maybe I should let readers make their own conclusions. I find it very 'strange' that she stayed at the 'Y'. If she was such a dear friend,then why did she not stay with VP at his home??? Perhaps they wanted 'privacy'"
Actually, I have a followup question for you....<BR>Take a woman this obsessed with vpw-
called EVERY night, visited town EVERY weekend- add that she "rid him of his hang-ups" about the human body,and I ask you,
WHAT happened between them when doors were shut?
I wonder if this sort of thing is one reason why he was so crappy with his wife? I mean, personally, I have a good relationship with my wife and if some other woman was calling me every night, etc, there would be smoke in the city. Just saying.
Yes, even one's vanity can be used against him as a snare. <_<
In the movie, The Devil's Advocate", Pacino states: "I rest my case. Vanity is definitely my favorite sin. Self-love, the all-natural opiate. It's not like you didn't care for Mary Ann, Kevin. You were just a little more involved with someone else: yourself."
VP used vanity mixed with innocence to draw us in. Our motivations were honest...his were anything but.
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OldSkool
Yepp!! I came to realize after leaving TWI, and mentally retracing my own exit path, that without a person's consent the way international has NO AUTHORITY! While I was battling it out with Rosalie and her lapdogs I began to understand there was nothing they could do unless I went along with it. Therefore, I developed the attitude of "do your worst!" To me corpse status, networks of supposed brethren, being "allowed" to serve (a.k.a slave) for the way international was all something I could do without. In fact, those things neither defined me or my relationship with God/Christ. Therefore, nothing they could threaten me with mattered.
In hindsight, I didn't need the usurpers trying to dictate my life and relation ships in the first place. They tried to take something that wasn't theirs and supplant themselves in the meantime.
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waysider
I remember one Saturday night in FellowLaborers, everyone else in the house had gone to do laundry or something. I was there alone, no T.V., no phone, no newspaper, just an empty apartment with no sound or outside stimulus to speak of. I caught a glimpse of myself in a mirror and it was like a surrealistic moment. How did I get here? What am I doing here? How had I deviated so far from where I started that first night I was witnessed to? It was like a feeling of unexplainable and profound depression. Was I possessed? The Advanced Class had taught me that depression is a devil spirit. Eventually, I shook it off, refortified myself by recalling lessons from Dealing With The Adversary, Renewed Mind, and, of course, a remembrance of how we learned in session #7 that bad things happen to those who stop to "consider". So, yes, there was self consent/self delusion involved. But, we made those decisions to consent on a basis of flawed information. It's like buying a car because it has low mileage, only to find out that the odometer has been rolled back. You made the decision to buy the car but, the person who sold it to you purposefully misrepresented its true value. Well, I guess it would be easy to feel dumb about being deceived but you should never feel guilty. The deception wasn't your fault. They own the guilt, not you.
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WordWolf
This was an important distinction to make.
Yes, we gave them the power- they lied to us, and deceived us, and we gave it under false pretenses.
But the deception was theirs, the deception was deliberate- so the guilt is theirs.
We can take back our consent whenever we wish.
Being deceived can affect when or even IF you wish it, however.
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skyrider
waysider.....you covered alot of ground in that post.
1) introspection....taking the time to stop and search "how you got there." To honestly evaluate one's circumstances and the decisions of one's past is quite sobering, for sure. Facing a grim reality has a way of jolting the braincells.
2) indoctrination...you "refortified" thought processes with the organization's material and stopped considering alternatives. How many times I'd done that thru the years! Red flags were flying and I saw them.....and yet, the I had been conditioned to SHUT DOWN CRITICAL THINKING.
3) deception.....twi rigged the odometer and, I'd add, a cheap, flaky paint job. Wierwille knew it from the get-go. The whole dealership is run like that.....the front office, the salesmen, the clerks, and guys in back in the shop. EVERYONE THERE KNOWS!
4) conscience....uppity twi leaders have hardened hearts and a seared conscience. They don't feel shame.....and leaves little wonder why the word "conscience" is detailed 31 times in the NT.
Insightful post......thanks.
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Rocky
Subtlety indeed. VERY insightful thread. THIS is the essence of twi being a cult.
And yet, how long did it take any of us to figure it out... at least enough to decide it was not what we were going to do with the rest of our lives.
For me, it took 12 years. And it's been 25 or so years SINCE. Yet, it remains a major aspect of life between my ears...
Young adults are so vulnerable...
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skyrider
Rocky......yes, THIS is the essence of twi being classified, by some, as a cult.
Unlike the many bizarre cults like moonies, hare krishnas, people's temple, heaven's gate, branch davidians, etc.....twi offered this christian youth movement that captivated the solidarity of its followers. No selling flowers at airports or meditating for hours in solitude, twi was attracting followers in ways far deeper that public perception could ever imagine.
I contend that wierwille and co. stumbled-bumbled their way into this system rather than some deep sinister masterplan of sorts. Failures are easily documented throughout wierwille's tenure.....but it is notable that a system of indoctrination was developed wherein someone like Rocky, in the above post, notes after 25 years of detachment that "it remains a major aspect of life between my ears." How can that be? And, how is it.....that long-standing followers hundreds of miles away are still fiercely loyal to their doctrines knowing full well that wierwille was a plagairist, a predator and a drunkard?
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OldSkool
I agree that wierwille stumbled his way along to become what he was. It really goes to show the importance of a so called man of God to stand upright before God and men. Abuse in God's name, when one supposedly represents God and supposedly speaks for God is extremely damaging to the victim's.
I know first hand. I post on Grease Spot to decompress after being involved for 12 years. Every time I think I have run my course it seems another series of waves come crashing on the beach. I have been out since 2008. I don't think I will ever totally remove the residue left on me by that false ministry. Yet, there a lot of people who caught far worse abuse than I ever did.
I still believe in God and that there will be a day when men will give account. I would hate to be wierwille on that day.
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skyrider
And, not just wierwille per se........but the spinning of the web, the stickiness, the vibrations all the way back to the spider who is concealed from the unsuspecting victim. Although there were pockets of outreach....CA, NY, KS, OH, & NC in early days.....wow ambassadors were sent out to establish 'twigs' that would remain faithful to twi. WOWs carried a message of "God is great and personable....and he delivered me. Spiritual abundance in knowing Him is available. Come check out twig." Excited youth reaching others and who ever expected a spider lurking unawares to devour?
Classes and stages of growth....you want to grow, don't you? Who knew that these classes were steps of subtle indoctrination? Even the Renewed Mind class interlaced scriptures to and fro spun in loving-God intricacies.....NOT some mischevious manipulation wherein one would REPETITIOUSLY RECITE WIERWILLE'S WORDS AND REFUSE DEEPER ANALYSIS.
Even the corps program was far more than just its teachings......1)isolation, 2)elitism, 3)corps concepts, 4)peer pressure, 5)elder corps reporting on younger corps, 6)news of world filtered thru twi-spiritualizing, 7)friendships developed, 8)comaraderie to help each other, 9)battling thru tough times, 10)24/7...etc. etc. TO THIS DAY, HOW MANY CORPS GRADS COME TO GS TO EXPOSE TWI'S EVIL? Yet, "they" isolate themselves on that other website and play in their little sandbox of 'corps commitment' or something.
My point......twi has an intricate web of deception that few have ever been able to detail. I have often wondered if wierwille ever stumbled across the writings and books of William James or someone similar to learn psychological methods of indoctrination?
William James - Click Here
Will to Believe Doctrine
"In William James's lecture of 1896 titled "The Will to Believe," James defends the right to violate the principle of evidentialism in order to justify hypothesis venturing. This idea foresaw the demise of evidentialism in the 20th century[citation needed] and sought to ground justified belief in an unwavering principle that would prove more beneficial. Through his philosophy of pragmatism William James justifies religious beliefs by using the results of his hypothetical venturing as evidence to support the hypothesis' truth. Therefore, this doctrine allows one to assume belief in God and prove His existence by what the belief brings to one's life."
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excathedra
for me, i think the hook was so inviting because of past abuse
this is just what i'm thinking now
i was very insecure deep inside -- had not even begun to discover my "core" self -- so i guess i bought into their definition of my core self
does that make sense?
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Rejoice
Exie;
A lot of us were insecure. The actress Sally Field stated this: "I was raised to sense what someone wanted me to be and be that kind of person. It took me a long time not to judge myself through someone else's eyes."
It is a journey and a process and we come out stronger!
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skyrider
Yeah.....in our youth, I believe that's a fair statement.
So was WIERWILLE......an insecure, low self-esteem, pastor in 1941.....READY TO QUIT.
....even twi documents his life with having few answers at that time of searching.
....and, it was Dr.EEHggns, by vp's admission, that got him to take a look at his naked body in a mirror.
....yeah, wierwille had that LOW of self-sesteem
You know........LOTS of people were never around wierwille when he was in his 20s, 30s, 40s....
.........I never even met wierwille UNTIL HE WAS 58 YEARS OLD --- (1975)
.........And, after all these years.......I'm STILL NOT 58 yrs old.
.........And, I certainly wouldn't put up with that crap at this age!!
The old f@rt manipulated us all the way to the bank!!!
.
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waysider
I can't quite put my finger on it but there is something very wrong with this scenario. How did a married, supposed pastor happen to find himself engaged in a discussion of naked bodies with a member of the opposite sex?
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skyrider
Yeah.....another one of those hidden details or freudian slips of wierwille's past.
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skyrider
Will we ever start to see wierwille thru ADULT eyes?
Back then, adults were leaving twi left & right......
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waysider
Interesting... In that old church hymn,
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waysider
Addendum verse:
Oh, Lord, my God
Check out my cushy tushy.......
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skyrider
Smoke and mirrors.......knowing what we know today about wierwille speculation could easily run wild.
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JavaJane
Wow. Just wow. I have been trying to put that thought into words for a while now. That quote from Sally Field nailed it. Thank you for posting that. It was this year that I came to realize that I didn't even know what I wanted anymore because I had submerged myself do deeply into what other people wanted of me. I think a lot if that had to do with frowning up in twi.
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skyrider
Why the way corps program?
Simple. PFAL was going to die a slow hemorraging death....without the marching orders of a fiercely loyal and disciplined chain of command, all the way back to wierwille himself. The corps program had NOTHING to do with training leadership; the program had all the underpinnings of building a core of class instructors. Without this core nucleus of indoctrinated instructors, pfal would die on the vine.
Like wierwille's Diamond Club where he rallied 75 people to faithfully tithe to 'The Way' in the earlier years, so the corps program would be committed instructors of pfal.....nothing more.
Sure, the corps carried the banner of 'spiritual leadership'.....but wierwille reined them in time and time again. And really, all that corps insignia of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers.....was sugar-coating. How many corps grads were there that were designated as such? Even 'evangelizing' was code word for running pfal classes. The manipulation continues to this day....and how many STILL don't see it?
Yes, even one's vanity can be used against him as a snare. <_<
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WordWolf
Reread "the way:living in wonderland."
twi loaded his language with a lot of suggestive phrasing when describing his dealings
with her, and then there was a gap in time for a few hours,
immediately followed by vpw asking God for forgiveness and never said WHY.
That's in HIS OWN WORDS.
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skyrider
As much as twi scrubbed......STAINS REMAIN
The GS Forensic Lab is HERE!
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WordWolf
I was wrong.
Looks like there's 2 different incidents with 2 different women,
neither of which we have the details on.
One was Rosal1nd R1nker, one was EE H1gg1ns.
==============================================
www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/7363-the-wayliving-in-wonderland/page__st__260__p__185522#entry185522
I found this in our threads. It's from SNT 214, 10/17/65,
"Light Began to Dawn". vpw, as usual, was speaking.
=======
"...and when we walked back
through the buulding, he introduced me to this woman,
Rosalind Rinker. We got acquainted just in a brief period of
time and somehow or other, it jelled within my heart to say
to her, "Well, why don't you come over to our house and
spend a week?" And she said "Well, I'll just do it." "
"So I said to her,
"Would you like to come for a week or so with us?" And she
said "Yes, I will." I said, "When will you come?" She said
"I'll be there Saturday" or Sunday, I forget which.
Lo and behold, here she came. You know what we did? When she
came, I wanted her to speak to our church group, but she had
no interest in that. She said, "I want to talk to you." And
we sat down in that same office where I'd had this
revelation from the Lord."
"And she took me-that had been through all these colleges and
seminaries and had almost my work for my doctor's degree
finished-she just takes me and winds me around her finger
with the knowledge of God's Word-I didn't know any of God's
Word compared to her."
"And she pinned me down, and she took me into the Word,
ans showed me that it was the Word that counted and not what
a theologian said or what a main said but 'what does the Word
say?' And she pinned me down, and she took me into the
Word, and showed me that it was the Word that counted and not
what a theologian said or what a main said but 'what does the
Word say?' And she kept backing me up against the wall-
whole week long. Just, night after night, day after day,
that's all she did.
So, one evening, after everybody else had gone to bed, she
and I went into the church and we knelt at the pulpit chairs
up in front, and we prayed together, and that was the
second great night of my life. When, during the course of
that weekend, she told me that God was showing her that He
had something very special for me to do, and that I should
teach the Word."
====================================
=========
BTW,
WordWolf:
Quote
Actually, I have a followup question for you....<BR>Take a woman this obsessed with vpw-
called EVERY night, visited town EVERY weekend- add that she "rid him of his hang-ups" about the human body,and I ask you,
WHAT happened between them when doors were shut?
a la prochaine, on Sep 5 2005, 04:24 AM, said:
WW, Yes, I wanted state that very thing you asked...but thought maybe I should let readers make their own conclusions. I find it very 'strange' that she stayed at the 'Y'. If she was such a dear friend,then why did she not stay with VP at his home??? Perhaps they wanted 'privacy'"
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OldSkool
I wonder if this sort of thing is one reason why he was so crappy with his wife? I mean, personally, I have a good relationship with my wife and if some other woman was calling me every night, etc, there would be smoke in the city. Just saying.
Sorry to go off topic so much.
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Rejoice
In the movie, The Devil's Advocate", Pacino states: "I rest my case. Vanity is definitely my favorite sin. Self-love, the all-natural opiate. It's not like you didn't care for Mary Ann, Kevin. You were just a little more involved with someone else: yourself."
VP used vanity mixed with innocence to draw us in. Our motivations were honest...his were anything but.
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