And the irony is they can't really see how insignificant they have become over the last two decades. They have decimated their own numbers and now they have a really hard time getting anyone to participate. They will no doubt exist in one form or another for the foreseeable future but they lack relevance in today's world. Like a depressed, downsized industrial town, they lean on their history (rewritten as it may be) to say they are special in some way or another. Meanwhile they are blind to their current anemic state.
I was blind to it as well when I was in just a few years ago. I had believed the propaganda that if we build it they will come. At one point I actually thought I was part of a preparation phase at HQ where we were getting ready for a large influx of people that God had us working hard to receive. Fast forward a few years and a promotion or two up the ladder where I truly saw that there was no influx of anything except hot air from the higher ups to keep the troops motivated. Few new people, lack of participation in the advanced class, working on staff, way disciple, and way corps. All things twi are on life support.
HQ never supplied anything we used for twig meetings, branch meetings, etc. We had to find people who would donate rooms to run classes in, people to donate folding chairs, people who would donate refreshments and so on. We were never allowed to use the ABS or love offerings to fund any of it. That money had to go directly to HQ. We weren't even allowed to use any of it for the postage to mail it. Consequently, it became commonplace for refreshment crews to wash the styro cups (lipstick stains and all) and recycle them. It was always an annoyance when someone would leave teeth marks because that would end their usefulness. Uncle (He wasn't MY uncle.) Harry had the ingenious idea that we could save money by "stretching" coffee. What this involved was putting new grounds on top of yesterday's grounds and adding a bit of salt to cut the bitterness.
Ahhh, the abundant life. Wasn't it grand?
Edit:
Sometimes we actually were allowed to rent a meeting room if no other option existed. It had to be the cheapest room you could find, though, and the practice was frowned on by HQ. Of course, if it was your responsibility to secure the meeting places, it reflected poorly on your ability to "believe" if you couldn't get something for free.
And the irony is they can't really see how insignificant they have become over the last two decades. They have decimated their own numbers and now they have a really hard time getting anyone to participate. They will no doubt exist in one form or another for the foreseeable future but they lack relevance in today's world. Like a depressed, downsized industrial town, they lean on their history (rewritten as it may be) to say they are special in some way or another. Meanwhile they are blind to their current anemic state.
I was blind to it as well when I was in just a few years ago. I had believed the propaganda that if we build it they will come. At one point I actually thought I was part of a preparation phase at HQ where we were getting ready for a large influx of people that God had us working hard to receive. Fast forward a few years and a promotion or two up the ladder where I truly saw that there was no influx of anything except hot air from the higher ups to keep the troops motivated. Few new people, lack of participation in the advanced class, working on staff, way disciple, and way corps. All things twi are on life support.
My husband and I were talking the other day about a couple we know that are still involved and living at HQ. We remember them fondly or at least try to remember them in a good light. They disowned us. That could be somewhat deserved as we were not at our best while in TWI .
Right after we left....hubby saw the husband of the couple we know......it is still etched in his mind because he could actually see the glazed over look in his eyes and remembers the conversation because all he could parrot was "You have to get back to the blue book.' It was like a huge void in this man's ability to hear or comprehend and a boat load of denial. Hubby told him all we knew about the adultery, money, abuse, the women, the deaths......and yet....no response. That conversation actually served to really wake us up more......but, now they have been in for over 30 years......longer than NOT involved.
I am really curious how they can continue to think they are involved in something good, special or at all relevant. I wonder how they can continue to deny true Godly movements and real churches full of Christians and accept TWI as important or true. If you are ever up to it....and it is not too nosy.....can you elaborate on this mind-set that had you believe God was at work in TWI? Maybe a little more of how you started to come out of it. I know that is a great deal to ask....so, if you can't or don't want ....no problem.....what you share here is very very interesting and helpful.
Yet.....8 MILLION are attending those non-denominational megachurches today. When twi touted its soft, personal approach to teaching God's Word in a living room.....if that were true, then why are twi's numbers so pathetic?
Of course, twi's ramblings about 'the remnant of God' are absurd. Heck, the 8 million congregants of these non-denominational megachurches could spout the same spewth if they were so inclined to make comparisons....after all, isn't 8 million a small remnant to a world population of 7 BILLION or so?
To stick with twi's analogy......they are holding on by a THREAD.
So, if I understand you correctly, WW, you are saying that The Way doesn't resemble the first century church at all, despite its insistence that it's patterning itself as such.
I'm appalled!
Truly, this comes to me as very disturbing news.
I thought for sure that the first century "believers" lived in communes, operated food coops, and sponged off the good nature of participants. I mean, that's what we did in FellowLaborers and it was promoted as a being a replication of the first century church. Now I'm just bummed out.
HQ never supplied anything we used for twig meetings, branch meetings, etc. We had to find people who would donate rooms to run classes in, people to donate folding chairs, people who would donate refreshments and so on. We were never allowed to use the ABS or love offerings to fund any of it. That money had to go directly to HQ. We weren't even allowed to use any of it for the postage to mail it. Consequently, it became commonplace for refreshment crews to wash the styro cups (lipstick stains and all) and recycle them. It was always an annoyance when someone would leave teeth marks because that would end their usefulness. Uncle (He wasn't MY uncle.) Harry had the ingenious idea that we could save money by "stretching" coffee. What this involved was putting new grounds on top of yesterday's grounds and adding a bit of salt to cut the bitterness.
Ahhh, the abundant life. Wasn't it grand?
The world is full of predators and opportunists.......I get that.
But....how a "christian organization" can somehow justify the demand for one's tithe (or 15%) and not extend a loving hand in service is unconscionable. Yeah, they teach the word with lip-service and smiles....and then, followers pay the monthly sunday teaching cassette fees and mag subscription. Field people run classes in their homes.....setup, refreshments, paper products, extra cleaning, lighting, etc. and then, send a 'thank you' card back to hq!
Then.....splinter groups follow the pattern and exploit in the same manner?
Is there any wonder why thousands and thousands headed for the exit doors?
can you elaborate on this mind-set that had you believe God was at work in TWI? Maybe a little more of how you started to come out of it. I know that is a great deal to ask....so, if you can't or don't want ....no problem.....what you share here is very very interesting and helpful.
geisha, were you asking skyrider? sky, can you answer that ?
i know for me, personally, it just got to be too much once geer started to blame "the way corps" for wierwille's death. i guess it helped that i always hated him. there were these "secret corps meetings" where we had to listen to his tape. at first i was all ready to bite the guilt bullet. ralph and joe were like, "why are you blaming yourself"? and i thought, "yeah, why am i"? then we were told by the limb leader (a really nice guy) not to tell our branch/twig anything about the meeting. when our friends asked us about everything, we couldn't do anything but tell them it all. we were so tired....
ps. it took me 15+ years from that time to tell about what wierwille did to me. that's how long my shame lasted -- or even longer
once i had left the way, i never went to any offshoot or talked to anyone except really close friends
oops, that's not completely true -- i told some of my friends in the twig and branch what had happened.
but once i left the area, i never spoke of it again until waydale / greasespot
.....can you elaborate on this mind-set that had you believe God was at work in TWI? Maybe a little more of how you started to come out of it. I know that is a great deal to ask....so, if you can't or don't want ....no problem.....what you share here is very very interesting and helpful
geisha, were you asking skyrider? sky, can you answer that ?
geisha & excie......yeah, I'll toss in my two cents worth.
When I heard about twi, my initial involvement was to learn of this biblical research work. At the time, I was attending college and was dating a Catholic girl and, introspectively, pondering my future. Therefore, my sole interest was to learn more scripture and plant my flag on what I believed. My sports-filled and rural background undergirded me with an independent mindset and this new transition to college life and a Catholic girlfriend was a bit unsettling.
Anyways.....for me, twi was a gateway to learn more scripture. Nothing more. Like so many others' stories you hear, the incremental steps of twi's doctrines, classes and programs had gained a foothold into my life. And, I had deep reservations concerning the polished image of wierwille as the teacher, or as my teacher. I emphatically reserved the right to change my mind. But as life moved along.....my wow sister convinced me that I really should go into the corps. She admired my discipline, my level-headedness and compassion for others.
I have stated before that had I not been engaged, I would most likely have exited twi in 1981. My many posts on GS give countless details of seeing dissenting leadership and fiery confrontations. Amidst the stormy seas, my greatest treasures were hidden deep within: a wellspring love for my lord and savior and a compassion to help others. With twi's new research books coming....Jesus Christ Our Passover and Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed....my hope that twi would move beyond wierwille (and martindale). Could God Almighty do that for us? I truly thought He could. So I stayed.
Well....long story short, it didn't happen. But with each passing year, I kept true to searching the scriptures AND holding twi accountable to them. My rock of twi-accountability was Luke 4:18....the start of Jesus' ministry being full of holy spirit, this was the purpose of spiritual power on earth: 1)preach the good news, 2)heal the brokenhearted, 3)deliverance to the captives, 4)recovering of sight to the blind, 5)liberty to the bruised and 6)finish the Lord's work. Of course, I had desired to leave years earlier...but, in small ways to help and guard others from abusive leadership, I stayed to relieve heavy burdens. The challenges and toil of remaining those last few years was nearly unbearable.....but I honestly believed that the Lord was preparing the way for me to exit on His timetable.
To this day, we still have "friends" who are committed to twi. Absurd as it all seems, they remain in and abundantly share to this evil. Where I see INDOCTRINATION......they claim it's the word. What I label as SPIRITUAL ABUSE.....they see it as obedience. Where I see twi EVIL......they simply think there is nothing better and see church denominations ruled by seed men.
Perhaps, as the scriptures state......."the ways of man are past finding out" <_<
All I can say is - the real Body of Christ is significantly bigger than a poxy little outfit in the middle of rural USA.
There are believers, real believers, in very many countries, who live and breathe God's love in truly difficult circumstances. There are those who really risk their lives. There are those who put their lives truly out there to be available to others on mission fields of various types - medical, teaching, volunteer work, caring for kids...
In every town in "western" civilization, Christianity is easy. Churches are there and some of them are very good. In many towns denominationalism has broken down and different churches are cooperating in projects working together to present a large and loving face to (let's say) the unsaved. When someone leaves a church to start attending a different once, they often go with the blessing of the "old" church which recognizes the need to move on.
And while you're going to one of these churches, there are others to speak to if there are problems with the minister or other church leaders.
That's a lot better than the united front of The Way where the leader's word was law for everyone.
Never mind God's word. Step aside, God, we know your job better than you do.
I love the diversity of the lives of the Christians I know now. And I love seeing the way God works in their lives. And I love being a part of God's real outreaching to the poor, dispossessed, homeless, needy.
Thank God for His never-failing love and compassion.
Back in the 70s churches were strict about a lot of things. Even Protestant churches. They didn't just want you to not drink, smoke, etc. they wanted you to not play outside on Sundays, not say words like gosh, golly, or darn, they were really strict about silly stuff. If that was your dominating image of churches then groups like twi were a breath of fresh air. But churches HAVE lightened up. Now it's the other way around. The mega church is the breath of fresh air for those people. In the mega church there is plenty of room for individualism. They basically have the twig, branch, limb, and region meeting in the same building every week. We have attended megachurches in MI and in STL. The ones we went to seemed pretty organized.
I'm wondering something, though. I always thought that one of the big reasons why twi was labeled a cult was because they weren't part of the National Council of churches. TWI was big enough to be considered a potential threat to the "big boys" so to speak and the cult label was to keep them down. So what I'm wondering is, why do the mega churches not get labeled like that? They gotta be raking in more $ than twi ever did with 8 million strong. Are they independent or are they part of the NCC or some big denominations that are part of the NCC? They gotta be financially connected SOMEWHERE. Or do they?
Back in the 70s churches were strict about a lot of things. Even Protestant churches. They didn't just want you to not drink, smoke, etc. they wanted you to not play outside on Sundays, not say words like gosh, golly, or darn, they were really strict about silly stuff. If that was your dominating image of churches then groups like twi were a breath of fresh air. But churches HAVE lightened up. Now it's the other way around. The mega church is the breath of fresh air for those people. In the mega church there is plenty of room for individualism. They basically have the twig, branch, limb, and region meeting in the same building every week. We have attended megachurches in MI and in STL. The ones we went to seemed pretty organized.
It was the PERCEPTION that churches AS A WHOLE were strict, stifling, legalistic, dry, etc-
that made many of us easy targets for groups like twi. twi's ADVERTISING was that it was both
free of legalism and it had answers the churches didn't-and couldn't- have.
(It still claims that but they're obviously lies NOW.)
Back in the 1970s, there were PLENTY of churches that had movement and freedom. It wasn't that ALL
the young people just got up and left churches- some did things IN churches, and worshipped with
less staleness and more fresh air. I saw examples in what was normally a dry, sterile RC Church,
and the entire Pentecostal movement existed in complete opposition to the description you're giving.
Just because, say, you never attended an "Assemblies of God" church or any other "Pentecostal"
church didn't mean they weren't there. They existed and were growing while twi was growing- and they
grow to this day. In fact, one church in my old neighborhood had to be rebuilt as a BIGGER church
because there were too many members to meet comfortably where they were meeting at the time...
not to mention ANOTHER Pentecostal church being built in the same neighborhood (as in "I can walk
from one to the other.") There was an entire MOVEMENT called "charismatic" back in the 60s and
70s. That's what vpw READ ABOUT and decided to get in on. By the time he read any magazine
articles, local people had been doing things for YEARS.
It's just plain SAD to not be aware of it NOW. I mean, a few clicks of the mouse, and you can
get documentation of this even if you never noticed it back then.
I'm wondering something, though. I always thought that one of the big reasons why twi was labeled a cult was because they weren't part of the National Council of churches. TWI was big enough to be considered a potential threat to the "big boys" so to speak and the cult label was to keep them down. So what I'm wondering is, why do the mega churches not get labeled like that? They gotta be raking in more $ than twi ever did with 8 million strong. Are they independent or are they part of the NCC or some big denominations that are part of the NCC? They gotta be financially connected SOMEWHERE. Or do they?
No,
the wildly divergent DOCTRINE was a big reason, and the wildly divergent PRACTICE was another...
and the "thought control" stuff put it over the top. The idea that twi was called a cult solely
because of its size is nothing more than ignoring any sign otherwise and still swallowing the
"press releases" of twi. "Oh, the big churches object to us because we're taking people away from
them...." Nonsense like that. The STUPID people called twi a cult because of different doctrine
(soul sleep, annihilationism, the Trinity), and the SMART people called twi a cult because of
its structure and control exerted over members (single authority lacking any accountability,
indoctrination, etc.) twi always WAS a cult, but it was a cult with a strongly controlled center
(what vpw WANTED) and much of the outer edges had little control (which is what vpw did NOT want
but it supported the center and vpw was practical about his cult organization.)
If twi had been OBVIOUSLY a cult from the first day, very few of us would have fallen for it.
"In vain is the net set in sight of any bird." When outsider objected, they usually objected
to the more stupid things to object to- debatable doctrine or things that sounded made up-
instead of learning what the REAL things to object to were. That meant vpw was able to spin
it to his advantage- "See? The people who claim I'm a fraud can only complain about lies or
doctrinal things where they are in error and we have The Truth."
And where is this "8 million strong" number being hallucinated from? twi claimed to have had
100,000 people- which meant MAYBE that many people EVER SIGNED UP FOR PFAL WORLDWIDE- and we all know
some people never made it to Session 1, some people left before Session 12, and some people left
right after Session 12. twi never had 50,000 people at any one time.
And where is this "8 million strong" number being hallucinated from? twi claimed to have had
100,000 people- which meant MAYBE that many people EVER SIGNED UP FOR PFAL WORLDWIDE-
I think Sky was referring 8 million in megachurches.... At any rate, not to be argumentative... I wonder where you guys are getting your numbers from??? Did a little snooping around last night and the 8mil "total" people in megachurches seems way low. Plus I distinctly remember that the total number of TWI's non-member "membership" peaking out at an estimated 300,000 - not 200,000. Sure there were all kinds of breakdowns, active, inactive, totla who were actively, but now inactively not here... Stuff like that, but I'm just curious about the number thing, no biggie.
However. The MAIN reasons, TWI was considered a cult were that it had a single, charismatic leader, and its beliefs. The fact that VPW denied the deity of Jesus really ruffled lots of feathers in the eyes of mainstream church leaders. That single belief ALONE is enough to get your group the cult label, even today. The trinity (one God, coexistent in three persons) is the central, foundational belief on mainstream Christianity. Simply put, if you don't believe that Jesus IS God, you can't play in that sandbox. In the extreme, I've heard of at least one high ranking person in a major faith-based (truly) worldwide relief organization lose his job specifically due to his "refusal" to believe in the deity of Christ.
I didn't hear the details, but on the surface, that struck me, from a high level viewpoint, the same as LCM's culling of staff, crops, and everybody else, who refused to agree to "stand with the trustees" (i.e. adhere with the organization's core beliefs.
Another major "black eye" that vpw gave the mainstream church was the dead are not in heaven thing... It was the belief system he proposed, he ostracized TWI all by himself.... Analogy: If a person runs around vandalizing church buildings, burning Bibles and the like - damaging some of the most precious possessions the church has.... Then the church as a whole labeled him a vandal, and those who joined him in his vandalism, a "cult of vandals"... Would they be a "cult" or not? Even if they did some good... what would "the church" consider them?
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waysider
Oh, sure. But they didn't incur any costs by recruiting YOU to sacrifice the use of YOUR living room.
Cheap sons of byotches!
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skyrider
But twi leadership ALWAYS SAYS...
....its the personal, intimate involvement in small numbers that is SO desirous.
....why would anyone want to go to a massive church with strangers and non-committed people?
....and, that's the way the first century church leaders did it.
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waysider
I wonder....did they have styro cups in the first century?
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skyrider
You mean the ones with lipstick marks that were recycled?
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OldSkool
And the irony is they can't really see how insignificant they have become over the last two decades. They have decimated their own numbers and now they have a really hard time getting anyone to participate. They will no doubt exist in one form or another for the foreseeable future but they lack relevance in today's world. Like a depressed, downsized industrial town, they lean on their history (rewritten as it may be) to say they are special in some way or another. Meanwhile they are blind to their current anemic state.
I was blind to it as well when I was in just a few years ago. I had believed the propaganda that if we build it they will come. At one point I actually thought I was part of a preparation phase at HQ where we were getting ready for a large influx of people that God had us working hard to receive. Fast forward a few years and a promotion or two up the ladder where I truly saw that there was no influx of anything except hot air from the higher ups to keep the troops motivated. Few new people, lack of participation in the advanced class, working on staff, way disciple, and way corps. All things twi are on life support.
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waysider
Now, take your songbooks and turn to ......
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Rejoice
WHAT???????
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waysider
Yep.
HQ never supplied anything we used for twig meetings, branch meetings, etc. We had to find people who would donate rooms to run classes in, people to donate folding chairs, people who would donate refreshments and so on. We were never allowed to use the ABS or love offerings to fund any of it. That money had to go directly to HQ. We weren't even allowed to use any of it for the postage to mail it. Consequently, it became commonplace for refreshment crews to wash the styro cups (lipstick stains and all) and recycle them. It was always an annoyance when someone would leave teeth marks because that would end their usefulness. Uncle (He wasn't MY uncle.) Harry had the ingenious idea that we could save money by "stretching" coffee. What this involved was putting new grounds on top of yesterday's grounds and adding a bit of salt to cut the bitterness.
Ahhh, the abundant life. Wasn't it grand?
Edit:
Sometimes we actually were allowed to rent a meeting room if no other option existed. It had to be the cheapest room you could find, though, and the practice was frowned on by HQ. Of course, if it was your responsibility to secure the meeting places, it reflected poorly on your ability to "believe" if you couldn't get something for free.
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geisha779
My husband and I were talking the other day about a couple we know that are still involved and living at HQ. We remember them fondly or at least try to remember them in a good light. They disowned us. That could be somewhat deserved as we were not at our best while in TWI .
Right after we left....hubby saw the husband of the couple we know......it is still etched in his mind because he could actually see the glazed over look in his eyes and remembers the conversation because all he could parrot was "You have to get back to the blue book.' It was like a huge void in this man's ability to hear or comprehend and a boat load of denial. Hubby told him all we knew about the adultery, money, abuse, the women, the deaths......and yet....no response. That conversation actually served to really wake us up more......but, now they have been in for over 30 years......longer than NOT involved.
I am really curious how they can continue to think they are involved in something good, special or at all relevant. I wonder how they can continue to deny true Godly movements and real churches full of Christians and accept TWI as important or true. If you are ever up to it....and it is not too nosy.....can you elaborate on this mind-set that had you believe God was at work in TWI? Maybe a little more of how you started to come out of it. I know that is a great deal to ask....so, if you can't or don't want ....no problem.....what you share here is very very interesting and helpful.
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skyrider
Of course, twi's ramblings about 'the remnant of God' are absurd. Heck, the 8 million congregants of these non-denominational megachurches could spout the same spewth if they were so inclined to make comparisons....after all, isn't 8 million a small remnant to a world population of 7 BILLION or so?
To stick with twi's analogy......they are holding on by a THREAD.
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waysider
And it ain't "The Red Thread".
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skyrider
geisha.....that can be answered in two words.
DAVID KORESH
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WordWolf
In churches nowadays, there ARE small numbers in groups IN the larger churches!
Want to meet a few times a week for someone to teach from the Bible, pray, and socialize?
Look around- lots more people are doing that in churches than in twi OR its splinters.
I've sat in on a few.
As to the first century church leaders, they'd never recognize twi.
They were struggling to stay alive and ahead of people trying to imprison and/or kill them.
They NEVER sat studying words and their meanings.
They didn't schedule "witnessing" outings.
They didn't run classes.
They didn't sell books or magazines.
They didn't have central authority- local areas were TRULY autonomous.
They didn't charge for ANYTHING. Everything was freewill donations.
They demonstrated power and authority every day-and that's why people were willing to join up
with people that were being persecuted.
twi more resembles the Pharisees struggling to silence the Christians.
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waysider
So, if I understand you correctly, WW, you are saying that The Way doesn't resemble the first century church at all, despite its insistence that it's patterning itself as such.
I'm appalled!
Truly, this comes to me as very disturbing news.
I thought for sure that the first century "believers" lived in communes, operated food coops, and sponged off the good nature of participants. I mean, that's what we did in FellowLaborers and it was promoted as a being a replication of the first century church. Now I'm just bummed out.
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skyrider
Yeah...I get that, but NOT like the obscurity in a living room -- week after week, year after year.
How often would those fellowships in Arkansas visit twi hq?
How often do those in Mississippi get to a big mtg without even a Limb coordinator?
Talk about hanging by a thread. <_<
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skyrider
The world is full of predators and opportunists.......I get that.
But....how a "christian organization" can somehow justify the demand for one's tithe (or 15%) and not extend a loving hand in service is unconscionable. Yeah, they teach the word with lip-service and smiles....and then, followers pay the monthly sunday teaching cassette fees and mag subscription. Field people run classes in their homes.....setup, refreshments, paper products, extra cleaning, lighting, etc. and then, send a 'thank you' card back to hq!
Then.....splinter groups follow the pattern and exploit in the same manner?
Is there any wonder why thousands and thousands headed for the exit doors?
The lipstick stained styrofoam cup says it all.
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excathedra
geisha, were you asking skyrider? sky, can you answer that ?
i know for me, personally, it just got to be too much once geer started to blame "the way corps" for wierwille's death. i guess it helped that i always hated him. there were these "secret corps meetings" where we had to listen to his tape. at first i was all ready to bite the guilt bullet. ralph and joe were like, "why are you blaming yourself"? and i thought, "yeah, why am i"? then we were told by the limb leader (a really nice guy) not to tell our branch/twig anything about the meeting. when our friends asked us about everything, we couldn't do anything but tell them it all. we were so tired....
ps. it took me 15+ years from that time to tell about what wierwille did to me. that's how long my shame lasted -- or even longer
once i had left the way, i never went to any offshoot or talked to anyone except really close friends
oops, that's not completely true -- i told some of my friends in the twig and branch what had happened.
but once i left the area, i never spoke of it again until waydale / greasespot
it was really difficult
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waysider
I dunno. For me, it all seems like an ex-con reminiscing about the pick-up hoops he got to play in the yard at exercise time.
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skyrider
geisha & excie......yeah, I'll toss in my two cents worth.
When I heard about twi, my initial involvement was to learn of this biblical research work. At the time, I was attending college and was dating a Catholic girl and, introspectively, pondering my future. Therefore, my sole interest was to learn more scripture and plant my flag on what I believed. My sports-filled and rural background undergirded me with an independent mindset and this new transition to college life and a Catholic girlfriend was a bit unsettling.
Anyways.....for me, twi was a gateway to learn more scripture. Nothing more. Like so many others' stories you hear, the incremental steps of twi's doctrines, classes and programs had gained a foothold into my life. And, I had deep reservations concerning the polished image of wierwille as the teacher, or as my teacher. I emphatically reserved the right to change my mind. But as life moved along.....my wow sister convinced me that I really should go into the corps. She admired my discipline, my level-headedness and compassion for others.
I have stated before that had I not been engaged, I would most likely have exited twi in 1981. My many posts on GS give countless details of seeing dissenting leadership and fiery confrontations. Amidst the stormy seas, my greatest treasures were hidden deep within: a wellspring love for my lord and savior and a compassion to help others. With twi's new research books coming....Jesus Christ Our Passover and Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed....my hope that twi would move beyond wierwille (and martindale). Could God Almighty do that for us? I truly thought He could. So I stayed.
Well....long story short, it didn't happen. But with each passing year, I kept true to searching the scriptures AND holding twi accountable to them. My rock of twi-accountability was Luke 4:18....the start of Jesus' ministry being full of holy spirit, this was the purpose of spiritual power on earth: 1)preach the good news, 2)heal the brokenhearted, 3)deliverance to the captives, 4)recovering of sight to the blind, 5)liberty to the bruised and 6)finish the Lord's work. Of course, I had desired to leave years earlier...but, in small ways to help and guard others from abusive leadership, I stayed to relieve heavy burdens. The challenges and toil of remaining those last few years was nearly unbearable.....but I honestly believed that the Lord was preparing the way for me to exit on His timetable.
To this day, we still have "friends" who are committed to twi. Absurd as it all seems, they remain in and abundantly share to this evil. Where I see INDOCTRINATION......they claim it's the word. What I label as SPIRITUAL ABUSE.....they see it as obedience. Where I see twi EVIL......they simply think there is nothing better and see church denominations ruled by seed men.
Perhaps, as the scriptures state......."the ways of man are past finding out" <_<
Hope this helps some.
.
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Twinky
All I can say is - the real Body of Christ is significantly bigger than a poxy little outfit in the middle of rural USA.
There are believers, real believers, in very many countries, who live and breathe God's love in truly difficult circumstances. There are those who really risk their lives. There are those who put their lives truly out there to be available to others on mission fields of various types - medical, teaching, volunteer work, caring for kids...
In every town in "western" civilization, Christianity is easy. Churches are there and some of them are very good. In many towns denominationalism has broken down and different churches are cooperating in projects working together to present a large and loving face to (let's say) the unsaved. When someone leaves a church to start attending a different once, they often go with the blessing of the "old" church which recognizes the need to move on.
And while you're going to one of these churches, there are others to speak to if there are problems with the minister or other church leaders.
That's a lot better than the united front of The Way where the leader's word was law for everyone.
Never mind God's word. Step aside, God, we know your job better than you do.
I love the diversity of the lives of the Christians I know now. And I love seeing the way God works in their lives. And I love being a part of God's real outreaching to the poor, dispossessed, homeless, needy.
Thank God for His never-failing love and compassion.
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johniam
Back in the 70s churches were strict about a lot of things. Even Protestant churches. They didn't just want you to not drink, smoke, etc. they wanted you to not play outside on Sundays, not say words like gosh, golly, or darn, they were really strict about silly stuff. If that was your dominating image of churches then groups like twi were a breath of fresh air. But churches HAVE lightened up. Now it's the other way around. The mega church is the breath of fresh air for those people. In the mega church there is plenty of room for individualism. They basically have the twig, branch, limb, and region meeting in the same building every week. We have attended megachurches in MI and in STL. The ones we went to seemed pretty organized.
I'm wondering something, though. I always thought that one of the big reasons why twi was labeled a cult was because they weren't part of the National Council of churches. TWI was big enough to be considered a potential threat to the "big boys" so to speak and the cult label was to keep them down. So what I'm wondering is, why do the mega churches not get labeled like that? They gotta be raking in more $ than twi ever did with 8 million strong. Are they independent or are they part of the NCC or some big denominations that are part of the NCC? They gotta be financially connected SOMEWHERE. Or do they?
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WordWolf
It was the PERCEPTION that churches AS A WHOLE were strict, stifling, legalistic, dry, etc-
that made many of us easy targets for groups like twi. twi's ADVERTISING was that it was both
free of legalism and it had answers the churches didn't-and couldn't- have.
(It still claims that but they're obviously lies NOW.)
Back in the 1970s, there were PLENTY of churches that had movement and freedom. It wasn't that ALL
the young people just got up and left churches- some did things IN churches, and worshipped with
less staleness and more fresh air. I saw examples in what was normally a dry, sterile RC Church,
and the entire Pentecostal movement existed in complete opposition to the description you're giving.
Just because, say, you never attended an "Assemblies of God" church or any other "Pentecostal"
church didn't mean they weren't there. They existed and were growing while twi was growing- and they
grow to this day. In fact, one church in my old neighborhood had to be rebuilt as a BIGGER church
because there were too many members to meet comfortably where they were meeting at the time...
not to mention ANOTHER Pentecostal church being built in the same neighborhood (as in "I can walk
from one to the other.") There was an entire MOVEMENT called "charismatic" back in the 60s and
70s. That's what vpw READ ABOUT and decided to get in on. By the time he read any magazine
articles, local people had been doing things for YEARS.
It's just plain SAD to not be aware of it NOW. I mean, a few clicks of the mouse, and you can
get documentation of this even if you never noticed it back then.
No,
the wildly divergent DOCTRINE was a big reason, and the wildly divergent PRACTICE was another...
and the "thought control" stuff put it over the top. The idea that twi was called a cult solely
because of its size is nothing more than ignoring any sign otherwise and still swallowing the
"press releases" of twi. "Oh, the big churches object to us because we're taking people away from
them...." Nonsense like that. The STUPID people called twi a cult because of different doctrine
(soul sleep, annihilationism, the Trinity), and the SMART people called twi a cult because of
its structure and control exerted over members (single authority lacking any accountability,
indoctrination, etc.) twi always WAS a cult, but it was a cult with a strongly controlled center
(what vpw WANTED) and much of the outer edges had little control (which is what vpw did NOT want
but it supported the center and vpw was practical about his cult organization.)
If twi had been OBVIOUSLY a cult from the first day, very few of us would have fallen for it.
"In vain is the net set in sight of any bird." When outsider objected, they usually objected
to the more stupid things to object to- debatable doctrine or things that sounded made up-
instead of learning what the REAL things to object to were. That meant vpw was able to spin
it to his advantage- "See? The people who claim I'm a fraud can only complain about lies or
doctrinal things where they are in error and we have The Truth."
And where is this "8 million strong" number being hallucinated from? twi claimed to have had
100,000 people- which meant MAYBE that many people EVER SIGNED UP FOR PFAL WORLDWIDE- and we all know
some people never made it to Session 1, some people left before Session 12, and some people left
right after Session 12. twi never had 50,000 people at any one time.
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HCW
I think Sky was referring 8 million in megachurches.... At any rate, not to be argumentative... I wonder where you guys are getting your numbers from??? Did a little snooping around last night and the 8mil "total" people in megachurches seems way low. Plus I distinctly remember that the total number of TWI's non-member "membership" peaking out at an estimated 300,000 - not 200,000. Sure there were all kinds of breakdowns, active, inactive, totla who were actively, but now inactively not here... Stuff like that, but I'm just curious about the number thing, no biggie.
However. The MAIN reasons, TWI was considered a cult were that it had a single, charismatic leader, and its beliefs. The fact that VPW denied the deity of Jesus really ruffled lots of feathers in the eyes of mainstream church leaders. That single belief ALONE is enough to get your group the cult label, even today. The trinity (one God, coexistent in three persons) is the central, foundational belief on mainstream Christianity. Simply put, if you don't believe that Jesus IS God, you can't play in that sandbox. In the extreme, I've heard of at least one high ranking person in a major faith-based (truly) worldwide relief organization lose his job specifically due to his "refusal" to believe in the deity of Christ.
I didn't hear the details, but on the surface, that struck me, from a high level viewpoint, the same as LCM's culling of staff, crops, and everybody else, who refused to agree to "stand with the trustees" (i.e. adhere with the organization's core beliefs.
Another major "black eye" that vpw gave the mainstream church was the dead are not in heaven thing... It was the belief system he proposed, he ostracized TWI all by himself.... Analogy: If a person runs around vandalizing church buildings, burning Bibles and the like - damaging some of the most precious possessions the church has.... Then the church as a whole labeled him a vandal, and those who joined him in his vandalism, a "cult of vandals"... Would they be a "cult" or not? Even if they did some good... what would "the church" consider them?
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skyrider
Megachurches.....
*Steven Waldman, "Fastest Growing Religion=No Religion(New Religious Identification Survey),"
beliefnet.com, March 9, 2009
.
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