Mathematical exactness and scientific precision...

[Ham]

my initial thought..

the "inexact" numbers are "exact" if only in a different universe..

but they are (sometimes) exact here as well..

take a triangle with two sides of measure one..

the third side is irrational and thus unexact byj estimation even in this universe..

it is said.. some mathematician historical types say it is an old urban legend or something..

Pythagoras either strangled or drowned the guy who figured that out..

I tend to think it was more of a metaphor..

I don't think it is a man made universe.. more like a man(kind) perceived universe..

Edited February 10, 2012 by Ham

[Ham]

Inexactness does not bother me, even with metrics..

[Ham]

Excuse the colloquialisms..

I think all kind of weird *dang* happened when the Creator decided to be *real*.

No Precision (exactly) needed..

I know.. weird..

it's a work in progress here..

I don't wish or desire to deny the Creator, or His wisdom, on one hand..

or the stupidy of the universe , on the other..

sowy..

Every time I look at the Light.. it isn't logic that beckons.. well, maybe partly..

or maybe some.. or maybe none. At all..

and it is still a good day here..

[Ham]

If you don't mind me saying.. these are the best days of my life..

[Ham]

how about a description. Don't let it frighten you.. god is insane.

still in control of sorts, but does he want to, or really want to be responsible for the results, or outcome..

just a question.

take it as you wish..

Mathematical precision.. hah. I wish it were all so simple..

I really don't need convinced here.. I'm still a hundred percent faith..

well.. that's the way we (for the most part) have to live, or isn't it?

sowy.. too many questions..

I tend to agree with Jewish Mythology..

mostly.

something like *most* of divinity gave him(her)self to die for what we have or want in this existence..

where do we go from here..

[Steve Lortz]

Howzabout this:

Since the Enlightenment (mostly 17th-, 18th-century Europe), propositional knowledge (math, science) has taken precedence over poetic knowledge (knowledge conveyed through simile and metaphor). That hasn't always been the case. When the Bible was written, poetic knowledge took precedence over propositional knowledge (as it should).

Ham is using poetic means to commnunicate truth. It is more powerful than simply saying "The Bible is not mathematically exact and does not have scientific precision."

BRAVO! Squirrel-bard, BRAVO!

As Young Mr. Grace used to say on Are You Being Served?... "You've All done very well!"

Carry on!

Love,

Steve

[cman]

more wisdom in questions then answers, Ham

the bible, by itself, will mostly confuse

as in all communication and languages

unless you are, or become the author

even for a moment, their can be some clarity

with other moments of changing perspectives

the saying 'looking through a glass darkly'

the darkness is where the light is

and the glass is a mirror

one can not see, without combining within,

yourself and the words, without a catalyst

[Tom]

but we still have some of the logic of language, embedded in our souls..

what gives with that..

I'll take a shot at it:

As I remember from a language class that delt with the development of language, the first thing a little one experiences is that something is happening, then what is making it happen - finger hurts, stove hurt my finger. The little one now has a sentence - a subject and what the subject is doing. in any language, that's how it starts. Then little one starts blending this internal grammar with language he/she is hearing to the point where when little one starts talking, little already has a vocabulary of a couple of thousand words inside waiting to be worked by little one's internal grammar into expression.

What we learn in English class is "prescribed" grammar, but the really effective way our internal grammar develops is by exposure to more advanced expression either through reading or hanging with people whose grammar is more developed than ours. Vocabulary & facility of expression is one of the few things that continue to develop in a person throughout his/her lifetime. Anyway, that's what I remember learning in school - I believe it was a linguistics class.

Invest in your future; read people who can throw words together to express deep dang simply & engagingly.

Back to topic.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Tom

[Ham]

the bible, by itself, will mostly confuse

as in all communication and languages

unless you are, or become the author

even for a moment, their can be some clarity

with other moments of changing perspectives

sometimes I think we have to step up to that plate, so to speak..

to be or to become the author..

am I on to something.. or is it more of the same nonsense..

sometimes, all there is is a moment of clarity.

Because of one of mine, I will NEVER shop at Wally Mart, ever ever again..

I can't mandate any of my supposed godly (or ungodly) ethics on any other living being, except for myself..

[Ham]

poetic knowledge took precedence over propositional knowledge (as it should).

sorry for the partial quotes. But those are what are speaking to me at the moment..

Poetic knowledge taking precedence over propositional knowledge..

some mathematicians call it geometric knowledge..

I think both have their place.

They had to coexist at least at one point in time..

[Ham]

We really need both of them..

to really communicate..

poetic, propositional..

I try to use a little more of the poetic language with math 119 students..

yeah.. "but what can (or will) I ever USE this for.."

why can't you just enjoy the beauty of it..

A lot of times.. all I can say is.. I HOPE you will use this, in the next class.. or in an appropriate profession, like chemistry, physics..

[Ham]

Sometimes (like next monday) I Have to either be, or pretend to be, the Squirrel, wearing the fish hat..

what would you do, hmm?

[Ham]

one can not see, without combining within,

yourself and the words, without a catalyst

I love these words.

But for me, what is the catalyst..

very interesting thoughts. Sorry to cut them in pieces, so to speak.. but that is how they speak to me, in small parts, or small increments..

still very "cool"..

Edited February 12, 2012 by Ham

[cman]

Good question

as language and communication is embedded in our souls

so is the catalyst

and like Tom refers to

being exposed to more, will bring more of it out

if we can hear it,

or rather when we can

or in it's own time

which is ours

but there is also that which flows through us all

and with us that cannot be denied, once seen

as close as our breath

the air we all share

[waysider]

I'm still trying to figure out what it means to "fit like a hand in a glove". If you are doing delicate work, like surgery, you want it to fit tightly. If you are working outdoors in the cold, you want it to fit loosely.

[Steve Lortz]

but there is also that which flows through us all

and with us that cannot be denied, once seen

as close as our breath

the air we all share

The word "spirit", in both the Hebrew and the Greek means "wind" or "air in motion" or "breath". You have just expressed, cman, the poetic essence of the word "spirit"!

Love,

Steve

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

"ruach" is Hebrew, "rohka" is Aramaic, "pneuma"(p is silent, not sounded as Wierwille tried to do) is Koinne Greek, "spiritus" is Latin, and "geiste" is German, brought over into English as ghost.

[cman]

if you get too technical you loose the spirit of the spirit

it's like so much beyond science or math or language

that the new tongue bypasses all that

and may not be heard right away

or even in the same words used

cause each one who interprets is different

and we each need and can hear different things

there is so much poetry and murals and abstract ideas

that we can each gain something

you just can't nail it down to definition

much like the parables and riddles

there is so much in them that they can't be grasped fully

but experienced, yes

even then there is more to see

[Tom]

if you get too technical you loose the spirit of the spirit

it's like so much beyond science or math or language

Sorry, cman, for cutting your very fine post off. Good job. Thanks for that.

I'm just remembering at one time, TWI drew a fine distinction between a mathematical exactness & a scientific precision. Only problen with that distinction is mathematics IS a science - the science or the sciences dealing with the logic of quantity and shape and arrangement.

[Ham]

Fits like a hand in a glove.. sowy, to me it does not..

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

Fits like a hand in a glove.. sowy, to me it does not..

unless it is a latex glove used by doctors, btw you know Wierwille really isn't a Doctor though he tried to play one on Lima TV Now I've done it, Rosie the Riverter(with her partner Donna) and Mr. Linder are going to send out the Goon Squad after me. Yeah, whatever.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Thomas Loy Bumgarner

[Twinky]

In all of this let's not forget that language itself is imprecise when it really comes down to describing - say - emotions. We have a general idea of what someone else may feel, think, etc, but can we really ever know?

All that word-study stuff was interesting, and I learned a lot doing it. But it presupposes that a word never changed or developed its meaning over all the hundreds of years, in fact millenia, that the books of the Bible were written.

Just in the English language, it wouldn't be hard to find words that have changed their meaning, or acquired another meaning such that the original meaning is quaint and archaic (like "prevent" / "pre-vent". In the last 100 years this has really moved on a lot faster. Not to mention words that have acquired meanings much more recently (think: mouse - first thought? Not a critter but something to do with a computer).

Those word-studies were in effect a blind, a diversion, a deviation, to get us to think about what we thought we knew, rather than really exploring what a particular passage was saying. Gave us head-knowledge without giving us heart-knowledge.

We have a number of different words in the English language to indicate removal of property without consent: steal, rob, defraud, etc - and colloquially nick, pinch, wag, lift, "borrow" (add your own)) - they have different meanings (openly, stealthily, by force...) but you don't need a word study to understand that the basic thought is taking someone else's property without their consent. By whatever means it's done.

(A dollar to a donut he got Jonny Jumpup or Snowball Pete to pinch the "math.exactness" phrase from somebody else, anyway)

Edited February 25, 2012 by Twinky

[WordWolf]

I found a reference to "mathematical exactness and scientific precision"

in the context of a sales program.

www.marksmalley.com/book.html

"One night during dinner (and a couple of glasses of wine) my friend was reliving his former glory. He began spilling his guts about some of the most guarded secrets in the publishing business. He told me how his ad sales executives used these formulas to generate astronomical advertising sales numbers.

It was called the "Structured Sales Approach."

As soon as our dinner ended I drove home and started scouring the Internet, periodicals, newspapers, magazines and anything I could get my hands that talked about "the formula."

I began applying what little information my friend gave me and like magic the formulas began producing the same incredible results. I was selling advertising for a small print publisher at the time that specialized in technology.

In 1999, I put it all together. This was due in part to an interview I found with the founder of this billion-dollar company and a prominent technology columnist. The founder discussed the formula in detail (without giving it a name) and he elaborated on why he felt it worked with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision."

I also found it in reference to some teacher who taught in India back when vpw was there.

The book "Glory pf Puttaparthi" contains the reference.

"Baba will continue to influence my life since his message to me has mathematical exactness and scientific precision."

This "Baba" is a title, like calling someone "Doctor" as if it's his name.

So, what's "Glory of Puttaparthi" about?

Puttaparthi is a location.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puttaparthi

"Puttaparthi (Telugu: పుట్టపర్తి) (14°9.91′N 77°48.70′E) is a town situated in the Anantapur district of Andhra Pradesh, India. It was also the residence of the notable spiritual teacher Sathya Sai Baba.

The town's main attraction is Baba's Prasanthi Nilayam ashram, the presence of which has given a huge boost to the local economy, in the form of hotels, lodges, restaurants and shops which are largely frequented by visitors to Prasanthi Nilayam.

The common languages spoken in Puttaparthi are Telugu, Kannada, English and Hindi."

So, that's a place where one could have gone, during vpw's India tour, and heard "Sathya Sai Baba" teach.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sathya_Sai_Baba

"Śri Sathya Sai Baba (Telugu: సత్య సాయిబాబా born as Sathyanarayana Raju (23 November 1926 – 24 April 2011[4][5][6]) was an Indian guru, spiritual figure, mystic, philanthropist and educator.[7] He claimed to be the reincarnation of Sai Baba of Shirdi, considered a spiritual saint and a reputed miracle worker, who died in 1918 and whose teachings were an eclectic blend of Hindu and Muslim beliefs.[5][8][9][10][11][12][13] The materializations of vibhuti (holy ash) and other small objects such as rings, necklaces and watches by Sathya Sai Baba were a source of both fame and controversy; devotees considered them signs of divinity, while skeptics viewed them as simple conjuring tricks.[14] Photos of him are displayed in millions of homes and on the dashboards of cars, and lockets bearing his photo are worn by many as a symbol of good fortune.[15]"

Go ahead and read his entire wikipedia page. It sounds like this guy scammed the Indian people

into thinking he was a man of god, and vpw took notes and used many of the same techniques,

some slightly adapted to a Western audience.

======================================

In other news, Leonard used a phrase a little similar in concept,

"FOUNDATIONS (Co-authored by Rev. Evelyn Thiele-Leonard). Foundations is to the student of Holy Writ what a blueprint is to a construction engineer. It is a veritable slide-rule in the hands of the truth-seeker."

A slide-rule is a mathematical tool for the engineer. Its use suggests mathematical exactness.

[Steve Lortz]

Unfortunately, slide rules are ordinarily exact only to within three significant figures, which was the reason scientific notation had to be developed. Tiny microchips are now more exact than the finest slide rules used to be...

Love,

Steve

Speaking of which... Blue Letter Bible is a heck of a lot more useful and fun than all those concordances used to be.

[Tom]

In all of this let's not forget that language itself is imprecise when it really comes down to describing - say - emotions. We have a general idea of what someone else may feel, think, etc, but can we really ever know?

All that word-study stuff was interesting, and I learned a lot doing it. But it presupposes that a word never changed or developed its meaning over all the hundreds of years, in fact millenia, that the books of the Bible were written.

Just in the English language, it wouldn't be hard to find words that have changed their meaning, or acquired another meaning such that the original meaning is quaint and archaic (like "prevent" / "pre-vent". In the last 100 years this has really moved on a lot faster. Not to mention words that have acquired meanings much more recently (think: mouse - first thought? Not a critter but something to do with a computer).

Those word-studies were in effect a blind, a diversion, a deviation, to get us to think about what we thought we knew, rather than really exploring what a particular passage was saying. Gave us head-knowledge without giving us heart-knowledge.

We have a number of different words in the English language to indicate removal of property without consent: steal, rob, defraud, etc - and colloquially nick, pinch, wag, lift, "borrow" (add your own)) - they have different meanings (openly, stealthily, by force...) but you don't need a word study to understand that the basic thought is taking someone else's property without their consent. By whatever means it's done.

When words are translated into English for use in the bible, they many times wind up with various translations all from the same Greek word. Back in '74/75, a bible became popular among WC at HQ. I forget what it was called, but the research that went into it reduced words to one translation that was supposed to be the best for all possible uses. The read was somewhat awkward; it read like one of VP's "literal translations according to usage." I probably have it in storage. VP said we should be VERY careful about reading this translation. I believe he said that no one could reduce any word to one definition that would work all the time. You know, he was always about context to determine meaning. Matter of fact, he taught that all words - even the same word used in different contexts wind up with a refinement of meaning determined by its context. Not to say something possitive about VP in such an environment where the letters VP have an exceedingly negative meaning in context, but I think he had some rather fine perspectives to offer on the meanings of words in context. Matter of fact, that's what his literal translations according to usage were purportedly all about - believe it or not.

Not sure where you get your thinking, Twinky, that "All that word-study stuff was interesting, and I learned a lot doing it. But it presupposes that a word never changed or developed its meaning over all the hundreds of years..." You brought up the word "prevent." Remember in the foundation class, VP taught that words must be understood in the light of their biblical usage, & he used as an example how prevent used to mean precede? Think I'm right on that memory.

Part of the disagreement with VP is what he taught on administrations - whatever. What I want to say here is that one of my favorite word studies had to do with the word "house," & how it morphed in meaning from the OT to the gospels (also OT OK, right?) to Acts to the church epistles, developing into the word "administration."

For what it's worth,

Tom