I was in my second year of residence in 80-81, and it was the 5th Corps that came "back in residence" with us at Rome City. I'm positive that's correct, because I became close friends with several of them.
Are you sure the 4th Corps didn't come back for "retraining" in 79-80, skyrider?
I was in FLO 4, which started after ROA in 1975. When our second year began, in September of 1976, the limb leader and his wife, who were in charge of the program, were called back to HQ and replaced by another couple who had just graduated from the Corps. (I'm not sure exactly what WC numbers those would be.) Then, the second couple was *recalled* in (I think) September of 1978.
I was in my second year of residence in 80-81, and it was the 5th Corps that came "back in residence" with us at Rome City. I'm positive that's correct, because I became close friends with several of them.
That 5th corps back inrez thing.....does ring true.
Wasn't it Ch@rles H#nry R!xx, 5th Corps, who had the infamous bullride experience at Gunnison
that wierwille played over and over.....and laughed about it? Someone videotaped this in-rez
rodeo stuff.....and after charles finished his ride, the bull swung around and flipped him
The coming and going between campuses was just out of whack sky, agree completely. It was kind of bizarre really. There was an emphasis on duplicating what had happened at Way in New Knoxville in Kansas and Indiana locations, the "heart" of it, etc.
This was a basic life lesson for me. Took awhile - you know, you can hammer a nail and bend it and then keep whacking at it, re bending it back and hammering away at it but after a few tries when you see it won't go in, you....just keep trying different methods of getting that nail to go in? Or pull it, grab another and keep going....?
If I were looking at being a "learning organization" with best practices in place but always looking to improve if better comes along - as the Way stated about itself - then the gap there was painfully clear - what was being learned about how to be better and what of that was being used?
Not a whole hell of a lot.
I knew the Way was a home grown thing going in, that was obvious. Being a part of the build was what a lot of people wanted to do. But it wasn't "our" build, it was VPW's. ("god's" by any other name). His dog, his pony, his show. All the rattle about being "on" God's Word and protecting the "mystery" in what was being done ended up producing distrust and failure, instead of success. Something ain't right about that.
It's not that hard. He, we, made it out to be so difficult. It's not but it does require time, commitment and willingness to learn as one goes. VPW didn't really want to learn - that's not a guess, it's based on the facts. His never ending contention that he just couldn't get "people to listen" was whine with extra cheese. There were plenty of people listening. Saying something's true whether it comes to pass or not is a very clear concept and removes the measure of success from a result to the effort.
That's....okay, but there's a lot more to that and if one goes that route they will have to be vary clear on what they're doing and why..
The coming and going between campuses was just out of whack sky, agree completely.
<snip>
I knew the Way was a home grown thing going in, that was obvious. Being a part of the build was what a lot of people wanted to do. But it wasn't "our" build, it was VPW's. ("god's" by any other name). His dog, his pony, his show. All the rattle about being "on" God's Word and protecting the "mystery" in what was being done ended up producing distrust and failure, instead of success. Something ain't right about that.
It's not that hard. He, we, made it out to be so difficult. It's not but it does require time, commitment and willingness to learn as one goes. VPW didn't really want to learn - that's not a guess, it's based on the facts. His never ending contention that he just couldn't get "people to listen" was whine with extra cheese...
Yeah......wierwille's contention about "people not listening" EXPOSED wierwille's stubbornness to change!
There were plenty who had concerns about twi's static positioning. Bo R#@hard was one of those men. He was advocating
for more organization and flow-chart communication. The problem with wierwille's "homegrown approach"....was that he
sided with the martindale/geer/towns#nd adulation rather than the organizational/practical leadership skill sets of
r#@hard/don wierwille/art pol!ng who dealt with project and educational management.
Lest we forget......the 1982 Feb/Mar/Apr failed episode of the first "international corps campus" in London, Ontario.
The city was in an uproar hearing that twi was desiring to acquire an historical mansion for its campus property.
Ch@rlie and Tr@cy Pr#st0n were up there.....and then, Martindale went up and led a protest thru the streets. Another
"black eye" for twi as they tried to get the cart before the horse.
His dog, his pony, his show. All the rattle about being "on" God's Word and protecting the "mystery" in what was being done ended up producing distrust and failure, instead of success. Something ain't right about that.
It's not that hard. He,.....made it out to be so difficult.
Maybe wierwille was (gasp) fighting against the obvious?
Reading this thread just brought some recent (2003-2007 when we left) stuff. I remember that Rosie was wanting to bring the international WC back into HQ for assignments so they could become more connected with HQ and how HQ did things (meaning that they needed to bring them under the micromanagement of Rosie.)
And... the Camp Gunnison vacation spot for believers - when wee left the believers were being encouraged to spend their summer vacations at Gunnison.
Reading this thread just brought some recent (2003-2007 when we left) stuff. I remember that Rosie was wanting to bring the international WC back into HQ for assignments so they could become more connected with HQ and how HQ did things (meaning that they needed to bring them under the micromanagement of Rosie.)
And... the Camp Gunnison vacation spot for believers - when wee left the believers were being encouraged to spend their summer vacations at Gunnison.
Yup, the dream lives on.
Rosie started doing international leadership training each year since it became harder for folks to get into the country.
Camp gunnison....I hate that place. I would never do a vacation there. I guess running the campus and having only 5 people in-residence didn't make sense? Oh, and let's not forget they have hardly anyone who wants to go on staff. Solution! Bring the in-rez way corpse back to HQ. They get free labor that way. I can only imagine that camp gunnison is still not paying for itself.
Camp gunnison....I hate that place. I would never do a vacation there. I guess running the campus and having only 5 people in-residence didn't make sense? Oh, and let's not forget they have hardly anyone who wants to go on staff. Solution! Bring the in-rez way corpse back to HQ. They get free labor that way. I can only imagine that camp gunnison is still not paying for itself.
IMO.....the camp gunnison idea was BONEHEADED from the start. Okay, maybe it has investment value....I understand that. But how many thousands of hours of labor does it take, and new construction, and maintenance going into that place constantly? Albeit, the in-house corps labor is cheap....otherwise, this revamped "sleepy hollow campground" would be a major money pit.
Does "a church organization" NEED an isolated, over-the-mountain-pass, campus to train its way corps? Again, what's the strategy in endangering corps to travel snow-packed mountain roads at relocation times?
The cynical side of me can only see three possible reasons for buying "Sleepy Hollow" in the first place: 1) The pride of owning real estate on the Gunnison River, 2) Grasping a bit of the Rockies and the nearby elk hunting possibilities, and 3) Having a secluded cabin spot far, far away with corps women stopping by.
Heck, twi could have invested more agressively into the Rome City campus and kept the focus closeby. Like I said, others here might be able to better speak about the RC campus.....but associate degrees were accredited thru this Indiana campus, right? And, children and teenagers were becoming the "ebb and flow" of twi's changing landscape. IMO....the Rome City campus was a proper fit, if only it had been organized and properly managed.
but associate degrees were accredited thru this Indiana campus, right?
Now they run most of the in-rez program at HQ (unless it moved back - can someone verify?) in Ohio and run the degrees through Colorado. Reason? Ohio has a lot stricter requirements for accreditation than Colorado. Camp Gunnison, Inc. is accredited with Religious Authorization from Colorado. Except the kicker is the degrees are absolutely worthless because Colorado gives the degrees no state recognition. And of course the way international are not honest about the degrees being worthless. I heard over and over again that they were accredited and they had degree granting status. They just conveniently leave out the little tid bit that the state of Colorado gives the degrees they grant no state recognition. <_<
r#@hard/don wierwille/art pol!ng who dealt with project and educational management.
Yes, that's an interesting point. Later in the 80's smaller minds got a hold of the PM discipline and processes and the way it came out of the Way Nash was just useless. I didn't know that much about it then but when something works and helps, it works and helps. It did neither in the Way's rendition, it just mucked things up more.
Clearly recall the big move to get more "professional" then and how field staffers needed to be more manager oriented, as if that was a stroke of spiritual genius. The Way had grown, yes. "Management" issues involved morality, ethics and application, depth in counseling and pastoring and evangelism. What generated from the Way was, in a word, lame but it seemed to make field positions seem more professionally oriented, like career jobs for the committed dimwit or something.
It was as if the Way looked at it's people and decided they didn't have enough of the right kind of people, they wanted more education, more professional experience, most connections, more $. All those kids, those reformed hippies.
If you'd gotten involved as a youth it quickly became a cold fish smack in the face, seeing the politics at work. Had the Way invested professionally in the people that came on board in a logical methodical way, offering choices, considering options and growing internal resources using the 'home grown' model - all the bluster and fire might have served it well. Instead it seemed to be moving into a Next Phase, winnowing out those it didn't consider useful or didn't want to deal with.
It looks like this is burned in the consciousness of some off shotted groups I read about. The old timers have been raised on cut-and-run, they know how to kick people out, they saw it, may have been themselves. It's easy to blow something out and start over. It's not nearly as easy to work things out amongst a group of peers and work towards a common goal when you don't get everything your way or don't have your own little niche in which to reign. .
Accreditation - I don't know what requirements were then but I'm sure the issue was funding and transparency. A Library was mentioned, forget if it was NK or RC, needing a library. Buuuuut, I doubt that was the issue, now. One of but not the biggie. VPW carried all the major books he'd used in the Way Bookstore so that really wasn't the big secret it seems now - if you bought the books and read them you saw what came from where.
VPW benefitted from both trust and transparency. Like with Bullinger, I'd cracked those appendixes soon after getting the big hard cover version, still have it. Once I understood what he'd used I just moved on, it was referenced in PFAL. Same with Kenyon and others. I didn't take issue with his lack of footnoting and specifically id'ing areas he'd lifted and copied. Today I do, because of what it indicates - a research ministry that advocates deep study of the bible to learn it's historically accurate meaning and relies on the work of others - that won't credit and document for future use all of it's sources using a repeatable method and recognizing commonly accepted standards in the publishing world. That doesn't work, long term, if you want to be taken seriously, it's fine I guess if it's basically "vanity" publishing of your own stuff to a small audience. No less right but for family and friends it'll wash I guess.
VPW didn't want the state and fed's getting into his world. For whatever reasons he had, can't blame him for that. But the Way originally indicated as far back as 1969 they were actively seeking accreditation, and probably earlier I'm sure. In those short years after a lot of people got involved, and then they came up with the RC solution, and then they didn't even really set up the processes to fully support that, it was treated as more of an add-on, so-what, don't come for that.
Even today old timers hoot about that not being important or how they just "wanted the Word". Fine, but it was important, still is and The Way could have had the opportunity to build something that would last.
$ was around and spent. If someone had said, well we can lock down our accreditation stuff this year and get it in place or we can get these two motor coaches - I'd have voted for the accreditation. I think others would have too.
Interesting discussion and turns of thought Sky. So long ago. I have to dust off most of this to respond so I don't know how much sense it makes, probably not a lot.
Interesting discussion and turns of thought Sky. So long ago. I have to dust off most of this to respond so I don't know how much sense it makes, probably not a lot.
Makes sense to me and the history is much appreciated. They make Wierwille out to be such a godlike figure that (to hear the way international tell it) he was planned and methodical in everything he did. And he left us this great store house of truth to steward. I mean afterall, he did the work so we don't have to. Too bad the real historical truth accounts for him as a self serving stumble bum who was very ramdom in his actions and who really knows why he did what he did when he did it.
I seriously doubt that twi's hype on vacationing at camp gunnison is catching on. I mean, who really wants
to have their family activites REPORTED BACK TO THEIR LIMB COORDINATOR?
And.....with the economy struggling, would someone in North Carolina really want to spend that kind of travel money
when they're surrounded by vacation adventures all around them?
I don't think this plan has been successful... But it was a plan. I remember in the last few years I was involved trying to find vacation spots where I couldn't get cell phone service so none of my WC leadership could find me and I could have a break. I can't imagine trying to RELAX while on vacation at a Root locale where everyone is waiting for a chance to prove themselves more spiritual than me by finding a chance to reprove and correct at every possible moment.
I can't imagine trying to RELAX while on vacation at a Root locale where everyone is waiting for a chance to prove themselves more spiritual than me by finding a chance to reprove and correct at every possible moment.
Oh come now, why wouldn't you want reproof and correction?
I didn't take issue with his lack of footnoting and specifically id'ing areas he'd lifted and copied. Today I do, because of what it indicates - a research ministry that advocates deep study of the bible to learn it's historically accurate meaning and relies on the work of others - that won't credit and document for future use all of it's sources using a repeatable method and recognizing commonly accepted standards in the publishing world. That doesn't work, long term, if you want to be taken seriously, it's fine I guess if it's basically "vanity" publishing of your own stuff to a small audience. No less right but for family and friends it'll wash I guess.
The plagairism issue has been discussed from "ants to zebras".....but, to me, it speaks volumes of wierwille's character. Personaly, I believe that wierwille knew it was wrong and lied every step of the way to cover his tracks. Sure, he makes a bland statement that his great contribution was "putting it all together." I don't think so.
And, whenever wierwille made a slight reference to BG Leonard.....he quickly followed it with a cutting slander. Ummm.....with that deception, couldn't the SAME be said of wierwille? And, that whole thing about staying in a hotel room for three days and writing "Receiving the holy spirit Today" with side-by-side comparisons from Stiles' work......Please? Wierwille played his followers for suckers, but in the end....it smacks of wierwille as a snakeoil salesman.
In today's academia, an undergraduate could NOT get away with such plagairism....and yet, wierwille flaunted his "doctorate."
In today's academia, an undergraduate could NOT get away with such plagairism....and yet, wierwille flaunted his "doctorate."
And the cool thing is - today he is not getting away with it. He is exposed and the way international is paying the price in low numbers and stagnation.
OMG! Those meetings were the absolute worst. I will never forget L!nd@ C0ult3r's "sharing" on bowel movements and how one indication of good fiber intake is a nice s shape left behind in the bowl.
Ohmygosh she was in the Corps with me. What the heck happened to her?
Ohmygosh she was in the Corps with me. What the heck happened to her?
Well, if she was in the Corps with you, and you were in one of the early Corps......how long has she been spiraling in that cesspool? You do the math. I don't care what shape, color, or texture.....that many years of indoctrination into the sewage of TWI life and thought process has to do something to the part of the brain that tells us what is relevant and appropriate.
IMO.....the camp gunnison idea was BONEHEADED from the start. Okay, maybe it has investment value....I understand that. But how many thousands of hours of labor does it take, and new construction, and maintenance going into that place constantly? Albeit, the in-house corps labor is cheap....otherwise, this revamped "sleepy hollow campground" would be a major money pit.
Does "a church organization" NEED an isolated, over-the-mountain-pass, campus to train its way corps? Again, what's the strategy in endangering corps to travel snow-packed mountain roads at relocation times?
The cynical side of me can only see three possible reasons for buying "Sleepy Hollow" in the first place: 1) The pride of owning real estate on the Gunnison River, 2) Grasping a bit of the Rockies and the nearby elk hunting possibilities, and 3) Having a secluded cabin spot far, far away with corps women stopping by.
You have stirred another TWI memory from my buried stash. Gee, thanks! This one's not too bad though.
I remember hearing VP tell the story of how he came to purchase the Gunnison property. Seems he was out hunting somewhere and came upon the fellow who owned the property. They got to talking, and somehow came to a sale agreement, closing the deal with a manly handshake. The seller had one stipulation, however. He insisted that a grotto that he had built for his late wife be allowed to remain standing. It was one of those Catholic madonna-in-a-half-shell grotto things, or some such. I was quite the VP devotee at the time, and I remember thinking "oh no, he compromised on God's Word, permitting Satan to keep that idolatrous statue on TWI property, what's he doing that for?" So if TWI is facing hard times at Camp Gunnison today, perhaps it's due to the compromising nature of its origin as TWI property.
"You cannot compromise on God and His Word! The moment you compromise one iota, you'll burn!" Care to guess who yelled that into a microphone one Sunday night?
VP developed a habit of exempting himself from his own rules and regulations.
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This statement and mindset, and other similar ones I've heard (i.e. - "We're going to run on the rails that brought us here") is interesting. Of course it is never questioned as not being the "wisdom
Linda Z
I was in my second year of residence in 80-81, and it was the 5th Corps that came "back in residence" with us at Rome City. I'm positive that's correct, because I became close friends with several of them.
Are you sure the 4th Corps didn't come back for "retraining" in 79-80, skyrider?
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waysider
I was in FLO 4, which started after ROA in 1975. When our second year began, in September of 1976, the limb leader and his wife, who were in charge of the program, were called back to HQ and replaced by another couple who had just graduated from the Corps. (I'm not sure exactly what WC numbers those would be.) Then, the second couple was *recalled* in (I think) September of 1978.
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skyrider
Linda.....I think you are absolutely right.
I did say 1980-81....meaning thereabouts, so I might have missed it by half a year.
Not to shabby...with a 24-year tenure in twi, living in 7 states, overseeing twig/branch/
area/limb assignments and the roller coaster ride of a lifetime.
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skyrider
That 5th corps back inrez thing.....does ring true.
Wasn't it Ch@rles H#nry R!xx, 5th Corps, who had the infamous bullride experience at Gunnison
that wierwille played over and over.....and laughed about it? Someone videotaped this in-rez
rodeo stuff.....and after charles finished his ride, the bull swung around and flipped him
up and over the bull's backside.
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waysider
Did VPW ever ride the bull? <_<
O.K., so much for my morning dose of rhetoric. ;)
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socks
Yeh, it was '79 -80.
The coming and going between campuses was just out of whack sky, agree completely. It was kind of bizarre really. There was an emphasis on duplicating what had happened at Way in New Knoxville in Kansas and Indiana locations, the "heart" of it, etc.
This was a basic life lesson for me. Took awhile - you know, you can hammer a nail and bend it and then keep whacking at it, re bending it back and hammering away at it but after a few tries when you see it won't go in, you....just keep trying different methods of getting that nail to go in? Or pull it, grab another and keep going....?
If I were looking at being a "learning organization" with best practices in place but always looking to improve if better comes along - as the Way stated about itself - then the gap there was painfully clear - what was being learned about how to be better and what of that was being used?
Not a whole hell of a lot.
I knew the Way was a home grown thing going in, that was obvious. Being a part of the build was what a lot of people wanted to do. But it wasn't "our" build, it was VPW's. ("god's" by any other name). His dog, his pony, his show. All the rattle about being "on" God's Word and protecting the "mystery" in what was being done ended up producing distrust and failure, instead of success. Something ain't right about that.
It's not that hard. He, we, made it out to be so difficult. It's not but it does require time, commitment and willingness to learn as one goes. VPW didn't really want to learn - that's not a guess, it's based on the facts. His never ending contention that he just couldn't get "people to listen" was whine with extra cheese. There were plenty of people listening. Saying something's true whether it comes to pass or not is a very clear concept and removes the measure of success from a result to the effort.
That's....okay, but there's a lot more to that and if one goes that route they will have to be vary clear on what they're doing and why..
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skyrider
Yeah......wierwille's contention about "people not listening" EXPOSED wierwille's stubbornness to change!
There were plenty who had concerns about twi's static positioning. Bo R#@hard was one of those men. He was advocating
for more organization and flow-chart communication. The problem with wierwille's "homegrown approach"....was that he
sided with the martindale/geer/towns#nd adulation rather than the organizational/practical leadership skill sets of
r#@hard/don wierwille/art pol!ng who dealt with project and educational management.
Lest we forget......the 1982 Feb/Mar/Apr failed episode of the first "international corps campus" in London, Ontario.
The city was in an uproar hearing that twi was desiring to acquire an historical mansion for its campus property.
Ch@rlie and Tr@cy Pr#st0n were up there.....and then, Martindale went up and led a protest thru the streets. Another
"black eye" for twi as they tried to get the cart before the horse.
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skyrider
Maybe wierwille was (gasp) fighting against the obvious?
......fighting against the "unity of the spirit?"
......fighting to maintain his levers of control?
......fighting to hold his power and legacy?
Forget his dog, his pony, his show....
Where's Balaam's a$$ when you need him?
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JavaJane
Reading this thread just brought some recent (2003-2007 when we left) stuff. I remember that Rosie was wanting to bring the international WC back into HQ for assignments so they could become more connected with HQ and how HQ did things (meaning that they needed to bring them under the micromanagement of Rosie.)
And... the Camp Gunnison vacation spot for believers - when wee left the believers were being encouraged to spend their summer vacations at Gunnison.
Yup, the dream lives on.
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OldSkool
Rosie started doing international leadership training each year since it became harder for folks to get into the country.
Camp gunnison....I hate that place. I would never do a vacation there. I guess running the campus and having only 5 people in-residence didn't make sense? Oh, and let's not forget they have hardly anyone who wants to go on staff. Solution! Bring the in-rez way corpse back to HQ. They get free labor that way. I can only imagine that camp gunnison is still not paying for itself.
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skyrider
IMO.....the camp gunnison idea was BONEHEADED from the start. Okay, maybe it has investment value....I understand that. But how many thousands of hours of labor does it take, and new construction, and maintenance going into that place constantly? Albeit, the in-house corps labor is cheap....otherwise, this revamped "sleepy hollow campground" would be a major money pit.
Does "a church organization" NEED an isolated, over-the-mountain-pass, campus to train its way corps? Again, what's the strategy in endangering corps to travel snow-packed mountain roads at relocation times?
The cynical side of me can only see three possible reasons for buying "Sleepy Hollow" in the first place: 1) The pride of owning real estate on the Gunnison River, 2) Grasping a bit of the Rockies and the nearby elk hunting possibilities, and 3) Having a secluded cabin spot far, far away with corps women stopping by.
Heck, twi could have invested more agressively into the Rome City campus and kept the focus closeby. Like I said, others here might be able to better speak about the RC campus.....but associate degrees were accredited thru this Indiana campus, right? And, children and teenagers were becoming the "ebb and flow" of twi's changing landscape. IMO....the Rome City campus was a proper fit, if only it had been organized and properly managed.
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OldSkool
Now they run most of the in-rez program at HQ (unless it moved back - can someone verify?) in Ohio and run the degrees through Colorado. Reason? Ohio has a lot stricter requirements for accreditation than Colorado. Camp Gunnison, Inc. is accredited with Religious Authorization from Colorado. Except the kicker is the degrees are absolutely worthless because Colorado gives the degrees no state recognition. And of course the way international are not honest about the degrees being worthless. I heard over and over again that they were accredited and they had degree granting status. They just conveniently leave out the little tid bit that the state of Colorado gives the degrees they grant no state recognition. <_<
source: Scroll down to Camp Gunnison, Inc.
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skyrider
While you're at Camp Gunnison.....please meditate on the picture above the mantle.
Picture above mantle - Click Here.......scroll to bottom of page.
All praise to wierwille........hallowed be thy name.
.
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skyrider
I seriously doubt that twi's hype on vacationing at camp gunnison is catching on. I mean, who really wants
to have their family activites REPORTED BACK TO THEIR LIMB COORDINATOR?
And.....with the economy struggling, would someone in North Carolina really want to spend that kind of travel money
when they're surrounded by vacation adventures all around them?
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socks
organizational/practical leadership skill sets of
r#@hard/don wierwille/art pol!ng who dealt with project and educational management.
Yes, that's an interesting point. Later in the 80's smaller minds got a hold of the PM discipline and processes and the way it came out of the Way Nash was just useless. I didn't know that much about it then but when something works and helps, it works and helps. It did neither in the Way's rendition, it just mucked things up more.
Clearly recall the big move to get more "professional" then and how field staffers needed to be more manager oriented, as if that was a stroke of spiritual genius. The Way had grown, yes. "Management" issues involved morality, ethics and application, depth in counseling and pastoring and evangelism. What generated from the Way was, in a word, lame but it seemed to make field positions seem more professionally oriented, like career jobs for the committed dimwit or something.
It was as if the Way looked at it's people and decided they didn't have enough of the right kind of people, they wanted more education, more professional experience, most connections, more $. All those kids, those reformed hippies.
If you'd gotten involved as a youth it quickly became a cold fish smack in the face, seeing the politics at work. Had the Way invested professionally in the people that came on board in a logical methodical way, offering choices, considering options and growing internal resources using the 'home grown' model - all the bluster and fire might have served it well. Instead it seemed to be moving into a Next Phase, winnowing out those it didn't consider useful or didn't want to deal with.
It looks like this is burned in the consciousness of some off shotted groups I read about. The old timers have been raised on cut-and-run, they know how to kick people out, they saw it, may have been themselves. It's easy to blow something out and start over. It's not nearly as easy to work things out amongst a group of peers and work towards a common goal when you don't get everything your way or don't have your own little niche in which to reign. .
Accreditation - I don't know what requirements were then but I'm sure the issue was funding and transparency. A Library was mentioned, forget if it was NK or RC, needing a library. Buuuuut, I doubt that was the issue, now. One of but not the biggie. VPW carried all the major books he'd used in the Way Bookstore so that really wasn't the big secret it seems now - if you bought the books and read them you saw what came from where.
VPW benefitted from both trust and transparency. Like with Bullinger, I'd cracked those appendixes soon after getting the big hard cover version, still have it. Once I understood what he'd used I just moved on, it was referenced in PFAL. Same with Kenyon and others. I didn't take issue with his lack of footnoting and specifically id'ing areas he'd lifted and copied. Today I do, because of what it indicates - a research ministry that advocates deep study of the bible to learn it's historically accurate meaning and relies on the work of others - that won't credit and document for future use all of it's sources using a repeatable method and recognizing commonly accepted standards in the publishing world. That doesn't work, long term, if you want to be taken seriously, it's fine I guess if it's basically "vanity" publishing of your own stuff to a small audience. No less right but for family and friends it'll wash I guess.
VPW didn't want the state and fed's getting into his world. For whatever reasons he had, can't blame him for that. But the Way originally indicated as far back as 1969 they were actively seeking accreditation, and probably earlier I'm sure. In those short years after a lot of people got involved, and then they came up with the RC solution, and then they didn't even really set up the processes to fully support that, it was treated as more of an add-on, so-what, don't come for that.
Even today old timers hoot about that not being important or how they just "wanted the Word". Fine, but it was important, still is and The Way could have had the opportunity to build something that would last.
$ was around and spent. If someone had said, well we can lock down our accreditation stuff this year and get it in place or we can get these two motor coaches - I'd have voted for the accreditation. I think others would have too.
Interesting discussion and turns of thought Sky. So long ago. I have to dust off most of this to respond so I don't know how much sense it makes, probably not a lot.
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OldSkool
Makes sense to me and the history is much appreciated. They make Wierwille out to be such a godlike figure that (to hear the way international tell it) he was planned and methodical in everything he did. And he left us this great store house of truth to steward. I mean afterall, he did the work so we don't have to. Too bad the real historical truth accounts for him as a self serving stumble bum who was very ramdom in his actions and who really knows why he did what he did when he did it.
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JavaJane
I don't think this plan has been successful... But it was a plan. I remember in the last few years I was involved trying to find vacation spots where I couldn't get cell phone service so none of my WC leadership could find me and I could have a break. I can't imagine trying to RELAX while on vacation at a Root locale where everyone is waiting for a chance to prove themselves more spiritual than me by finding a chance to reprove and correct at every possible moment.
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OldSkool
Oh come now, why wouldn't you want reproof and correction?
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skyrider
The plagairism issue has been discussed from "ants to zebras".....but, to me, it speaks volumes of wierwille's character. Personaly, I believe that wierwille knew it was wrong and lied every step of the way to cover his tracks. Sure, he makes a bland statement that his great contribution was "putting it all together." I don't think so.
And, whenever wierwille made a slight reference to BG Leonard.....he quickly followed it with a cutting slander. Ummm.....with that deception, couldn't the SAME be said of wierwille? And, that whole thing about staying in a hotel room for three days and writing "Receiving the holy spirit Today" with side-by-side comparisons from Stiles' work......Please? Wierwille played his followers for suckers, but in the end....it smacks of wierwille as a snakeoil salesman.
In today's academia, an undergraduate could NOT get away with such plagairism....and yet, wierwille flaunted his "doctorate."
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OldSkool
And the cool thing is - today he is not getting away with it. He is exposed and the way international is paying the price in low numbers and stagnation.
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penworks
Ohmygosh she was in the Corps with me. What the heck happened to her?
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OldSkool
She has been fully assimilated into the Borg. And not to mention Joe is about as party line as they come.
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geisha779
Well, if she was in the Corps with you, and you were in one of the early Corps......how long has she been spiraling in that cesspool? You do the math. I don't care what shape, color, or texture.....that many years of indoctrination into the sewage of TWI life and thought process has to do something to the part of the brain that tells us what is relevant and appropriate.
It did make me laugh right out loud .
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OperaBuff
You have stirred another TWI memory from my buried stash. Gee, thanks! This one's not too bad though.
I remember hearing VP tell the story of how he came to purchase the Gunnison property. Seems he was out hunting somewhere and came upon the fellow who owned the property. They got to talking, and somehow came to a sale agreement, closing the deal with a manly handshake. The seller had one stipulation, however. He insisted that a grotto that he had built for his late wife be allowed to remain standing. It was one of those Catholic madonna-in-a-half-shell grotto things, or some such. I was quite the VP devotee at the time, and I remember thinking "oh no, he compromised on God's Word, permitting Satan to keep that idolatrous statue on TWI property, what's he doing that for?" So if TWI is facing hard times at Camp Gunnison today, perhaps it's due to the compromising nature of its origin as TWI property.
"You cannot compromise on God and His Word! The moment you compromise one iota, you'll burn!" Care to guess who yelled that into a microphone one Sunday night?
VP developed a habit of exempting himself from his own rules and regulations.
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