A few years before I left I really began to understand the one sided nature of being committed to the way international. They expected me to commit my life to them but they wouldn't lift a finger to help me in my time of need. Got a problem?....."serve more, work harder - God will bless you for it!"
It's a one way street! How many way corps were disposed of like they were nothing but trash? How many women committed themselves to a lifetime of Christian service only to find themselves prey to a serial sexual predator? The rhetorical questions could go on and on with the way international's twisted past.
In the Bible commitments required both parties. Doulos is a great example. The servant fulfilled his 7 years and loved the master of the house so much he committed his life to the house. In return the master of the house took care of him the rest of his life. How many times did we have the term doulos shoved down our throats with the emphasis on our commitment to the way international. Yet find me one person the way international cared for proportionate to a lifetime of Christian service.
Several years ago my daughter was diagnosed with a condition,her hiphad cracked apart.Indicating either lukemia
bone cancer ect...no prayers except be strong no help either as we had a 8 mo son also.So on down to Uof M Mott hospital.
it was a rare one in a million beneign tumor.It was taken out and replaced with cadevour marrow.She was is fine.The way?You were strong as you did not need us!
After taking advanced class '79, I received a letter from hq, which said "as an advanced class grad, you owe the ministry your life", then informed me that 'the ministry owes you nothing".
I was used to having commitment constantly shoved down my throat, but I was taken aback by the letter. It never occurred to me that the way should 'owe' me anything, and it seemed an intense, and threatening way of congratulating me for taking their class.
After taking advanced class '79, I received a letter from hq, which said "as an advanced class grad, you owe the ministry your life", then informed me that 'the ministry owes you nothing".
I was used to having commitment constantly shoved down my throat, but I was taken aback by the letter. It never occurred to me that the way should 'owe' me anything, and it seemed an intense, and threatening way of congratulating me for taking their class.
They still teach this today. I have heard Rosalie repeat on many occasions that "the ministry" owed us nothing and we owed the ministry everything. This sentiment has not gone away with time.
They still teach this today. I have heard Rosalie repeat on many occasions that "the ministry" owed us nothing and we owed the ministry everything. This sentiment has not gone away with time.
That just goes to show the insanity with which they operate.
They are just so BLIND they cannot distinguish the difference between a commitment to God and a relationship with other people. There is NO acceptable human relationship that is 100% one-sided like that - for example: You owe me everything, I owe you nothing. I mean, try dating with those tenets and see how far it gets you. Or a job, or a friendship, or belonging to a neighborhood, or civic group, or ANYTHING.
Only in TWI can you have a guy that steals 90% of the teaching material, packages it into classes and books mostly edited by other people, and somehow that guy is transformed into God. "The ministry" is de-personified such that it is such the holy ideal, endeavor. People lie, cheat, steal, blackball others, blackmail others, slander and libel all in the name of "the ministry" and that it "be not blamed".
They JUST CAN'T PUT IT TOGETHER. "The ministry" is nothing more than them and their behavior. If their behavior is corrupt, abusive, immoral, then HOW CAN THE MINISTRY NOT BE BLAMED?????? If they turn a blind eye to it in the name of preserving their little position, IT IS NOT ONLY BLAMED, BUT ALREADY JUDGED BY GOD.
I swear people must be stupider than stupid to continually buy into that cr@p0la. This is why TWI bots mostly suck at other relationships in their lives too. They know NOTHING about boundaries.
After I had been in TWI for a period of time, I thought I would be a lifer. I felt like it was a "home", and that I had actually found the path God wanted me to be on, as I had always thought I would be a missionary of some sort. So I remember saying to myself, "This is it"....this is what God wants me to do. It never occurred to me that there would ever be a time when I would not be in TWI...it was a "given" to me that I would be committed for life. Definitely a different type of commitment....it was to God and not TWI......however, as the years rolled along the line between God and the ministry grew to be really distorted and hard to distinguish between one and the other.....until I think I listened and heeded TWI more than I did God....A bad place to find yourself in. For me, it's been about getting back to God being God in my life.
Just out of curiosity Johniam...what offshoot were you speaking about?
After I had been in TWI for a period of time, I thought I would be a lifer. I felt like it was a "home", and that I had actually found the path God wanted me to be on, as I had always thought I would be a missionary of some sort. So I remember saying to myself, "This is it"....this is what God wants me to do. It never occurred to me that there would ever be a time when I would not be in TWI...it was a "given" to me that I would be committed for life. Definitely a different type of commitment....it was to God and not TWI......however, as the years rolled along the line between God and the ministry grew to be really distorted and hard to distinguish between one and the other.....until I think I listened and heeded TWI more than I did God....A bad place to find yourself in. For me, it's been about getting back to God being God in my life.
You know I can relate a lot to this. I felt like the whole "service to God" and life's purpose there was what I was doing. And maybe I was to some extent - I have to believe God honors the heart. But maybe the higher ups in TWI slipped up some. I saw too many things that didn't add up - the true fruit of their lives shone through despite their attempts to conceal it. The frogs in the pot boil and don't jump out because the temperature increase is gradual. The choice of compromise is not between zero and the last request to compromise - that's too large of a gap. It's done by increments - this compromise is only a little more than the last one. Then you find yourself in a whole other place and destination than you thought.
I certainly have seen since leaving many genuine Christians who have no need to conceal what they are doing, thinking or feeling. You have to ask yourself - if people are hiding something, if my leadership masks their activities, why? People don't hide what they are proud of, they hide what they are ashamed of. Those meetings that take place behind closed doors - they hide the most shameful acts. People ducking out to whisper in private over their cell phone conversations? The conversation that's just a whisper of a sentence or two? Pure unadulterated evil. Speaking with the hands, talking with the fingers - you know, the verses VPW and Craig said were seed men? To mask how they operated?
My experience with STFI, TLTF, and CFF were all the same. They wanted me to work for them and I was pitched soon and often. Thankfully I saw through it and disassociated myself. And I agree with WordWolf, that offshoots may not go after everyone the in the same manner. I was way corps and in top leadership at HQ (and that does not make me special in anyway except I was the bigger sucker) so I am similar to the folks running the offshoots. Except I have cast off the vestiges of the way international while they continue to keep their foundations set on victor paul wierwille instead of Christ.
My experience with STFI, TLTF, and CFF were all the same. They wanted me to work for them and I was pitched soon and often. Thankfully I saw through it and disassociated myself. And I agree with WordWolf, that offshoots may not go after everyone the in the same manner. I was way corps and in top leadership at HQ (and that does not make me special in anyway except I was the bigger sucker) so I am similar to the folks running the offshoots. Except I have cast off the vestiges of the way international while they continue to keep their foundations set on victor paul wierwille instead of Christ.
quote: Just out of curiosity Johniam...what offshoot were you speaking about?
It is affiliated with Chris Geer. It's called STL bible fellowship. We do ABS as we did in twi and every offshoot we ever regularly attended. But if we ever needed help with something, these folks have never shown a hint of a condescending attitude, unlike twi.
It is affiliated with Chris Geer. It's called STL bible fellowship. We do ABS as we did in twi and every offshoot we ever regularly attended. But if we ever needed help with something, these folks have never shown a hint of a condescending attitude, unlike twi.
I would like more information on this if you have any....you can PI me. Thanks!
quote: Just out of curiosity Johniam...what offshoot were you speaking about?
It is affiliated with Chris Geer. It's called STL bible fellowship. We do ABS as we did in twi and every offshoot we ever regularly attended. But if we ever needed help with something, these folks have never shown a hint of a condescending attitude, unlike twi.
How is the ABS handled? Do people send their money straight to "headquarters", or do fellowship coordinators collect the money and send it in, as with the old "blue form twigs"? I haven't had any direct experience with STL. What does STL teach about keeping promises?
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OldSkool
A few years before I left I really began to understand the one sided nature of being committed to the way international. They expected me to commit my life to them but they wouldn't lift a finger to help me in my time of need. Got a problem?....."serve more, work harder - God will bless you for it!"
It's a one way street! How many way corps were disposed of like they were nothing but trash? How many women committed themselves to a lifetime of Christian service only to find themselves prey to a serial sexual predator? The rhetorical questions could go on and on with the way international's twisted past.
In the Bible commitments required both parties. Doulos is a great example. The servant fulfilled his 7 years and loved the master of the house so much he committed his life to the house. In return the master of the house took care of him the rest of his life. How many times did we have the term doulos shoved down our throats with the emphasis on our commitment to the way international. Yet find me one person the way international cared for proportionate to a lifetime of Christian service.
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skyrider
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skyrider
Deleted -
Topic for another thread. Sorry.
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frank123lol
Several years ago my daughter was diagnosed with a condition,her hiphad cracked apart.Indicating either lukemia
bone cancer ect...no prayers except be strong no help either as we had a 8 mo son also.So on down to Uof M Mott hospital.
it was a rare one in a million beneign tumor.It was taken out and replaced with cadevour marrow.She was is fine.The way?You were strong as you did not need us!
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hiway29
After taking advanced class '79, I received a letter from hq, which said "as an advanced class grad, you owe the ministry your life", then informed me that 'the ministry owes you nothing".
I was used to having commitment constantly shoved down my throat, but I was taken aback by the letter. It never occurred to me that the way should 'owe' me anything, and it seemed an intense, and threatening way of congratulating me for taking their class.
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waysider
Well, they were wrong. They do owe you something.....an apology.
(I wouldn't hold my breath, though.)
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OldSkool
They still teach this today. I have heard Rosalie repeat on many occasions that "the ministry" owed us nothing and we owed the ministry everything. This sentiment has not gone away with time.
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chockfull
That just goes to show the insanity with which they operate.
They are just so BLIND they cannot distinguish the difference between a commitment to God and a relationship with other people. There is NO acceptable human relationship that is 100% one-sided like that - for example: You owe me everything, I owe you nothing. I mean, try dating with those tenets and see how far it gets you. Or a job, or a friendship, or belonging to a neighborhood, or civic group, or ANYTHING.
Only in TWI can you have a guy that steals 90% of the teaching material, packages it into classes and books mostly edited by other people, and somehow that guy is transformed into God. "The ministry" is de-personified such that it is such the holy ideal, endeavor. People lie, cheat, steal, blackball others, blackmail others, slander and libel all in the name of "the ministry" and that it "be not blamed".
They JUST CAN'T PUT IT TOGETHER. "The ministry" is nothing more than them and their behavior. If their behavior is corrupt, abusive, immoral, then HOW CAN THE MINISTRY NOT BE BLAMED?????? If they turn a blind eye to it in the name of preserving their little position, IT IS NOT ONLY BLAMED, BUT ALREADY JUDGED BY GOD.
I swear people must be stupider than stupid to continually buy into that cr@p0la. This is why TWI bots mostly suck at other relationships in their lives too. They know NOTHING about boundaries.
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johniam
quote: That's why every cult, not just TWI, but the offshoots, Amway, Mars Hill, etc., put such a premium on COMMITMENT!
Funny, I've been with an offshoot for 7 years now and this "premium on committment" you speak of I haven't yet seen.
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newlife
After I had been in TWI for a period of time, I thought I would be a lifer. I felt like it was a "home", and that I had actually found the path God wanted me to be on, as I had always thought I would be a missionary of some sort. So I remember saying to myself, "This is it"....this is what God wants me to do. It never occurred to me that there would ever be a time when I would not be in TWI...it was a "given" to me that I would be committed for life. Definitely a different type of commitment....it was to God and not TWI......however, as the years rolled along the line between God and the ministry grew to be really distorted and hard to distinguish between one and the other.....until I think I listened and heeded TWI more than I did God....A bad place to find yourself in. For me, it's been about getting back to God being God in my life.
Just out of curiosity Johniam...what offshoot were you speaking about?
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chockfull
You know I can relate a lot to this. I felt like the whole "service to God" and life's purpose there was what I was doing. And maybe I was to some extent - I have to believe God honors the heart. But maybe the higher ups in TWI slipped up some. I saw too many things that didn't add up - the true fruit of their lives shone through despite their attempts to conceal it. The frogs in the pot boil and don't jump out because the temperature increase is gradual. The choice of compromise is not between zero and the last request to compromise - that's too large of a gap. It's done by increments - this compromise is only a little more than the last one. Then you find yourself in a whole other place and destination than you thought.
I certainly have seen since leaving many genuine Christians who have no need to conceal what they are doing, thinking or feeling. You have to ask yourself - if people are hiding something, if my leadership masks their activities, why? People don't hide what they are proud of, they hide what they are ashamed of. Those meetings that take place behind closed doors - they hide the most shameful acts. People ducking out to whisper in private over their cell phone conversations? The conversation that's just a whisper of a sentence or two? Pure unadulterated evil. Speaking with the hands, talking with the fingers - you know, the verses VPW and Craig said were seed men? To mask how they operated?
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WordWolf
I agree with this post as stated. I have no doubts John has not seen this "premium on COMMITMENT."
It's possible they're waiting to spring it on him later, but more likely they already dropped the
"entry level" lower commitment stuff on him and he didn't see it.
John-like myself- didn't see most of the commitment stuff when in twi.
Unlike myself, I think he saw NONE of it, while I saw some but approached it differently.
My thinking was "free enterprise", as even lcm said it once (but didn't mean it.)
What that meant was, I was committed only to the degree that I hadn't seen anything better
than twi, and would move to another group if and when they were better. I said that from the
beginning and even before pfal. I maintained that position until the day I left- partly for that
reason. So, when I saw a LITTLE of it, I dismissed it as isolated and not SYSTEMIC.
That was later disproven, but not until I'd arrived at the GSC.
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skyrider
Perhaps.....all different offshoots views "premium on commitment" differently.
If someone tithes faithfully to an offshoot, then the "entry level" is met. So, if a husband and wife make a combined
yearly income of $60,000........perhaps, that offshoot guy is happy to accept their $6,000 and push no more. Plus, if
said person offers their home for fellowships, leadership meetings, events, classes.....that's "commitment" as well.
And, if they bring a co-worker to fellowship every third year....it speaks of outreach.
The reason I visit GreaseSpot is to share my experiences in a cult. In this regard, it is my intent to help dismantle
twi's manipulation and exploitation of others. How others choose to guage their commitment is not really my concern.
I suppose it could easily be said......those who compare themselves among themselves are not wise.
.
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OldSkool
My experience with STFI, TLTF, and CFF were all the same. They wanted me to work for them and I was pitched soon and often. Thankfully I saw through it and disassociated myself. And I agree with WordWolf, that offshoots may not go after everyone the in the same manner. I was way corps and in top leadership at HQ (and that does not make me special in anyway except I was the bigger sucker) so I am similar to the folks running the offshoots. Except I have cast off the vestiges of the way international while they continue to keep their foundations set on victor paul wierwille instead of Christ.
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Rejoice
Or Bullinger, or Pillai, or Lamsa...
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johniam
quote: Just out of curiosity Johniam...what offshoot were you speaking about?
It is affiliated with Chris Geer. It's called STL bible fellowship. We do ABS as we did in twi and every offshoot we ever regularly attended. But if we ever needed help with something, these folks have never shown a hint of a condescending attitude, unlike twi.
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newlife
It is affiliated with Chris Geer. It's called STL bible fellowship. We do ABS as we did in twi and every offshoot we ever regularly attended. But if we ever needed help with something, these folks have never shown a hint of a condescending attitude, unlike twi.
I would like more information on this if you have any....you can PI me. Thanks!
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Steve Lortz
How is the ABS handled? Do people send their money straight to "headquarters", or do fellowship coordinators collect the money and send it in, as with the old "blue form twigs"? I haven't had any direct experience with STL. What does STL teach about keeping promises?
Love,
Steve
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