johniam......an old post by satori summarizes and concludes an interesting perspective:
"Here are some things that occurred to me reading your post...
There were lots of good times at TWI. Friendships, adventures, great memories, some "learning," for better or worse. And there was the bad.
For some, the "baby" was the experience of living through TWI's experience for a time. We may wish to turn our backs on that part of our lives, but it's better that we embrace and understand what happened - denying neither the good, nor the bad.
For others, the "baby" is the ministry itself, the corrupt source of it all, the twisted teachings, the flawed leadership, the bureaucracy and social caste system, and Vic Wierwille who was always corrupt, along with his henchpeople who either were or became bad to join the (evil) enterprise. Some may not have clearly seen the corruption, flaws, etc., which is why they want to "save the baby" so badly.
Either perspective is accessible to everyone, though we often fail to define them, or to recognize them, in context. This causes some unnecessary confusion, I think.
oldiesman loved the experience, so much so, he forgives the enterprise. He reminds me of the assassin in the DaVinci code. It's as if the ministry gave his life virtually all of its meaning. TWI = his redemption. Where else can he go?
Others believe the corrupted root eventually corrupted the fruit, and differentiate between the quality of their initial experience and the integrity of the enterprise. Those found the experience worthwhile enough to stay until they were harmed by the enterprise, which changed their experience from good to bad.
When the experience went sour, some discovered the evil nature of Wierwille's enterprise. This sometimes tainted everything that came before it, depending upon the individual. Others blamed themselves, often because they were blamed by others, or they remain confused."
I have thought of another analogy. What if evidence showed up that revealed that Thomas Edison was a serial adulterer who was sexually and verbally abusive to those who served him and that he stole his ideas from someone else before getting credit for inventing electricity and other things? I read that he COULD be verbally abusive to those who worked for him. But does that mean I shouldn't use electricity anymore?
TWI worked for me. If I had NOT hooked up with twi I probably would have spent my adult life in and out of prison. I was already involved in a criminal activity; drugs. I already had 2 arrests for it. TWI didn't "rehabilitate" me, they just got me away from my drug friends long enough so that I could decide on my own to stay away from that whole lifestyle. Satanic organization? I don't think so! I didn't know VP. He didn't do everything on his own; he needed help to start TWI and he needed help every step of the way. Sure, lot of bad things happen, but lot of good as well. I really can't imagine what my life would have been like had I not gotten in twi. Sorry if that's not what you want to hear.
Also, I don't want to be conformed to this world. This world constantly strains at a gnat and swallows at a camel. Environmentalism, animals' rights, politically correct, feminism, and the premium on education are just some of the ways the world strains at a gnat. All those things are way more important than God and his word to many people. Being in twi helped me see that.
johniam......why do you consistently post about sexual activity?
Time and time again, you bring this up.
Not to answer for homeboy, but his posts are very trollish. They usually are loaded with flame bait that serves to get the other posters raging at him, all the while steering the post off topic. Classic trolling techniques. Whether this person means to do this or not the effect is the same.
I have thought of another analogy. What if evidence showed up that revealed that Thomas Edison was a serial adulterer who was sexually and verbally abusive to those who served him and that he stole his ideas from someone else before getting credit for inventing electricity and other things? I read that he COULD be verbally abusive to those who worked for him. But does that mean I shouldn't use electricity anymore?
There is quite a voluminous gap between using the result of a scientist's experiment and accepting a moral cripple as your "father in the Word". What it really means is you need to work a little harder on selecting appropriate analogies, and possibly on moral distinction.
TWI worked for me. If I had NOT hooked up with twi I probably would have spent my adult life in and out of prison. I was already involved in a criminal activity; drugs. I already had 2 arrests for it. TWI didn't "rehabilitate" me, they just got me away from my drug friends long enough so that I could decide on my own to stay away from that whole lifestyle. Satanic organization? I don't think so! I didn't know VP. He didn't do everything on his own; he needed help to start TWI and he needed help every step of the way. Sure, lot of bad things happen, but lot of good as well. I really can't imagine what my life would have been like had I not gotten in twi. Sorry if that's not what you want to hear.
I see that you like many are struggling with coming to grips with "baby and the bathwater" types of issues. I personally don't have a problem with sorting out my past such that I can recognize God's hand has been on my life to save it for Him. Perhaps in your case God was aware that some form of a Christian group that functioned as a very tight-knit family was necessary for you. Perhaps He knew the churches in your area wouldn't appeal to you. I don't know, but I don't have a problem acknowledging that God's plan for my life has a little more perspective than even my own, and to accept that He could allow me into an organization like that and preserve my heart, life and conscience. I had good times in TWI too. I had times I could function as what I felt was a genuine minister of Jesus Christ. I made choices while in that were not in accordance with the Pharisees, but with my own conscience. I also had times where I caved in to the organization peer pressure and negatively impacted other Christian's lives by wrong decision, wrong example, wrong doctrine. For that I am truly sorry, and ask God's forgiveness (and people's too but they are meaner).
I think trying to imagine one's life down a different path than the one God has led you down is an exercise in futility. I could have been dead. I could have been born heir to a sultan. I wasn't either, just have to make the best of where I am now.
Also, I don't want to be conformed to this world. This world constantly strains at a gnat and swallows at a camel. Environmentalism, animals' rights, politically correct, feminism, and the premium on education are just some of the ways the world strains at a gnat. All those things are way more important than God and his word to many people. Being in twi helped me see that.
Actually its the Pharisees that strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. You never got to experience a lot of that in the organization, but it's true. The world does have designer causes (and yes, that I probably accurately learned from twi). But it's funny how much good those designer causes can do and make you feel. It feels pretty darn good to go down and serve food at a soup kitchen on Thanksgiving to people that might not have a solid meal otherwise. Maybe some designer causes have misplaced ideals. However, many of them don't and TWI labeled them all misplaced so they could lord over me and have all my undivided attention, service and money. Today I'd give $100 to the United Way, but wouldn't give a drop of water to a TWI leader dying of thirst. And I think that's a perspective God understands, supports, and endorses.
TWI worked for me. If I had NOT hooked up with twi I probably would have spent my adult life in and out of prison. I was already involved in a criminal activity; drugs. I already had 2 arrests for it. TWI didn't "rehabilitate" me, they just got me away from my drug friends long enough so that I could decide on my own to stay away from that whole lifestyle.
In a nutshell.....I think that I'm starting to understand your deep thankfulness for the twi-organization.
Personally, I never came to twi from that perspective. I was looking for a Father-son relationship with God,
not "a 12-step program of distancing past addictive habits and a change of lifestyle."
I have thought of another analogy. What if evidence showed up that revealed that Thomas Edison was a serial adulterer who was sexually and verbally abusive to those who served him and that he stole his ideas from someone else before getting credit for inventing electricity and other things? I read that he COULD be verbally abusive to those who worked for him. But does that mean I shouldn't use electricity anymore?
This is both a non-sequitur and a flawed analogy. In order for this to even resemble a valid comparison, one would need to show some sort of correlation between the cited behaviors and the use of electricity.
Logical fallacies are a common devise, used by those who realize or ignore the folly of their own arguments.
Not to answer for homeboy, but his posts are very trollish. They usually are loaded with flame bait that serves to get the other posters raging at him, all the while steering the post off topic. Classic trolling techniques. Whether this person means to do this or not the effect is the same.
This is both a non-sequitur and a flawed analogy. In order for this to even resemble a valid comparison, one would need to show some sort of correlation between the cited behaviors and the use of electricity.
Logical fallacies are a common devise, used by those who realize or ignore the folly of their own arguments.
Someone should have attached electricity to the gonads of VP to prevent him from abusing young girls?
Move over squirrel.......the groundhog gets his due.
Groundhog Day is a holiday celebrated on February 2 in the United States and Canada. According to folklore, if it is cloudy when a groundhog emerges from its burrow on this day, it will leave the burrow, signifying that winter-like weather will soon end. If it is sunny, the groundhog will supposedly see its shadow and retreat back into its burrow, and the winter weather will continue for six more weeks
Well......Lookie, Lookie here.
[Drum roll].......In a twisted world of fate, TWI moved its operation on THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 2, 1961
to headquarters on a very blustery, frigid winter day. [Mrs. W's book --- p.264]
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johniam
I have thought of another analogy. What if evidence showed up that revealed that Thomas Edison was a serial adulterer who was sexually and verbally abusive to those who served him and that he stole his ideas from someone else before getting credit for inventing electricity and other things? I read that he COULD be verbally abusive to those who worked for him. But does that mean I shouldn't use electricity anymore?
TWI worked for me. If I had NOT hooked up with twi I probably would have spent my adult life in and out of prison. I was already involved in a criminal activity; drugs. I already had 2 arrests for it. TWI didn't "rehabilitate" me, they just got me away from my drug friends long enough so that I could decide on my own to stay away from that whole lifestyle. Satanic organization? I don't think so! I didn't know VP. He didn't do everything on his own; he needed help to start TWI and he needed help every step of the way. Sure, lot of bad things happen, but lot of good as well. I really can't imagine what my life would have been like had I not gotten in twi. Sorry if that's not what you want to hear.
Also, I don't want to be conformed to this world. This world constantly strains at a gnat and swallows at a camel. Environmentalism, animals' rights, politically correct, feminism, and the premium on education are just some of the ways the world strains at a gnat. All those things are way more important than God and his word to many people. Being in twi helped me see that.
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skyrider
johniam......why do you consistently post about sexual activity?
Time and time again, you bring this up.
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OldSkool
Not to answer for homeboy, but his posts are very trollish. They usually are loaded with flame bait that serves to get the other posters raging at him, all the while steering the post off topic. Classic trolling techniques. Whether this person means to do this or not the effect is the same.
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chockfull
There is quite a voluminous gap between using the result of a scientist's experiment and accepting a moral cripple as your "father in the Word". What it really means is you need to work a little harder on selecting appropriate analogies, and possibly on moral distinction.
I see that you like many are struggling with coming to grips with "baby and the bathwater" types of issues. I personally don't have a problem with sorting out my past such that I can recognize God's hand has been on my life to save it for Him. Perhaps in your case God was aware that some form of a Christian group that functioned as a very tight-knit family was necessary for you. Perhaps He knew the churches in your area wouldn't appeal to you. I don't know, but I don't have a problem acknowledging that God's plan for my life has a little more perspective than even my own, and to accept that He could allow me into an organization like that and preserve my heart, life and conscience. I had good times in TWI too. I had times I could function as what I felt was a genuine minister of Jesus Christ. I made choices while in that were not in accordance with the Pharisees, but with my own conscience. I also had times where I caved in to the organization peer pressure and negatively impacted other Christian's lives by wrong decision, wrong example, wrong doctrine. For that I am truly sorry, and ask God's forgiveness (and people's too but they are meaner).
I think trying to imagine one's life down a different path than the one God has led you down is an exercise in futility. I could have been dead. I could have been born heir to a sultan. I wasn't either, just have to make the best of where I am now.
Actually its the Pharisees that strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. You never got to experience a lot of that in the organization, but it's true. The world does have designer causes (and yes, that I probably accurately learned from twi). But it's funny how much good those designer causes can do and make you feel. It feels pretty darn good to go down and serve food at a soup kitchen on Thanksgiving to people that might not have a solid meal otherwise. Maybe some designer causes have misplaced ideals. However, many of them don't and TWI labeled them all misplaced so they could lord over me and have all my undivided attention, service and money. Today I'd give $100 to the United Way, but wouldn't give a drop of water to a TWI leader dying of thirst. And I think that's a perspective God understands, supports, and endorses.
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skyrider
In a nutshell.....I think that I'm starting to understand your deep thankfulness for the twi-organization.
Personally, I never came to twi from that perspective. I was looking for a Father-son relationship with God,
not "a 12-step program of distancing past addictive habits and a change of lifestyle."
But...good for you, john.
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OldSkool
Maybe you should give AA a try.
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waysider
This is both a non-sequitur and a flawed analogy. In order for this to even resemble a valid comparison, one would need to show some sort of correlation between the cited behaviors and the use of electricity.
Logical fallacies are a common devise, used by those who realize or ignore the folly of their own arguments.
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OldSkool
See how he works.
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chockfull
Someone should have attached electricity to the gonads of VP to prevent him from abusing young girls?
Hey, I'm trying.
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waysider
Tsk Tsk, chocky. You won't earn any points from the Wierwille Admiration Society with talk like that.
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skyrider
Happy Groundhog Day everyone!
Especially to our GS-denizen squirrel... :)
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Ham
Mean Mister Mustard sits..
too bad it's a partial quote. I should listen to this again..
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