"I guess some people just cannot be helped, that's all."
Wow, that's a crappy attitude.
Frankly, some of this reads like nonsense - like this statement - "The more we know the more we should doubt"...
Or this:
here is an explanation for why believers reason so badly: They have been enculturated, or indoctrinated to believe, a phenomenon that can best be described as being brainwashed.
As soon as I figure out what enculturated means, I'll digest this better but on the surface it's a standard screed. (yeh, I know it's a word, just don't see it a lot and it sounds wrong when you say it, at least to me but that's okay)
Why don't "Most" Believers Seriously Question Their Faith?
It would depend on several things I suppose - one would be how a person comes to hold a specific thing that they define as a point of "faith".
As far as I'm concerned the entire "question your faith" posit is highly over rated and not nearly as effective OR useful as it sounds. It's always trendy to say we should all question the things we "believe in" but it's only useful when approached methodically and with purpose.
NO ONE I know that I respect questions what they believe haphazardly or at the recommendation of someone else simply because someone else suggests they do it. EVERYONE I know, whether I respect them or not, relies heavily on "faith" perceptions to live, at all or do even the simplest of things like go to the store and buy a box of cough drops.
I also differ from the popularly held definition that says "faith" is by nature reliant on the unknown - I would contend that faith must in fact have a core essence grounded and rooted in a reality in order to exist, at all - and it is that essence from which the perception of a faith based belief proceeds.
I don't really care about the article Roy, I just figured I'd chime in. Why is this important to you? Having a 'crises of faith"?
When I shop, I carry this big pink binder full of coupons......people often ask me about it, and I have even helped random strangers save some money. The other day a woman was buying a Swifter....I gave her a coupon for 5 dollars off and a coupon for a free refill with purchase. We had a lovely chat and she was very interested in my system for saving. She said I inspired her to clip coupons and start saving. Great....I was happy to talk with her. Others have approached me and wanted to argue the merits of coupons. To them, I usually politely ask why they care HOW I shop.
It seems to me that this blurb you posted is less about helping people recover from cult abuse and more an attitude about a person's faith in God. Why does he care? Does he want to rescue people from faith in God? He must have the correct way and the right answers about a creator to make the sweeping generalizations he makes. There are a great many assumptions in his post and it smacks of proselytizing. Recruits for an atheist army?
What is it you liked about this post? I found it bordering on offensive, but not really worth too much concern...I was just curious about you and what is going on with you.....Are you doing okay?
Well, yeah. It reads like a call to Atheism. Which is fine but how does that help a person other than to say a faith in God is completely wrong and a lack of faith in God is completely right?
Check this statement out:
One should only conclude what the probabilities show and never assert more than what the evidence leads us to think is probably the case.
What if the probabilities indicate a faith in God is the soundest conclusion? Before anyone checks that off as BS - consider these two faith based scenarios:
1. Everyday I leave my house to drive to work. At the end of the work day I drive back home, assuming that it will be there despite the fact I haven't seen it all day. I don't call a neighbor 10 times a day to make sure it's still there and get satellite photos of it to make sure it is. I know that it should be unless something has caused it to not be there. The basic forces of nature and reality that are at work in everything else tell me that it will be there with enough surety that I can drive home confident it will be there.
2. I am married and have a wife who has said she loves me. She acts like it and has done things we generally know and agree on that define that love, to indicate to me that she, in fact loves me. I don't ask her 10 times a day "do you still love me?" I don't insist that she do things all day long to clearly indicate that she still loves me and that the level of love she has for me at any point in time is the same as it was the last time I checked. I live assuming that she loves me and that if that changes, I'll find out.
In #1, I accept the house is here (it was) for reasons that are both within and beyond my control - I don't control gravity or any of the other forces that would cause the house to remain in one state and in one place. I do control certain factors that govern the condition of it's existence. Between the two, the house is and will be until other forces cause it not to be.
In # 2, I accept that the relationship is two way and that we both have responsibilities for it to continue. I expect it to exist until other forces cause it not to, and those are forces that are both knowable and unknowable, I don't directly control their existence. .
In both scenarios, "faith" is a factor based on data that indicates that faith is predictable and reliable and doesn't require continuous affirmation or proof to exist. They both exist, in a sense, outside my own control or grasp, but affected by my relationship with them. The house is a tangible "thing" that I relate to physically - the Love is an intangible "thing", a quality that produces activity and tangibles.
In both scenarios I have faith that they exist when I'm not in contact with them and when there is no immediate proof of their existence. Yet I rely on my knowledge of them that they do in fact exist
My "faith" in God is similar to both - it's tangible and rooted in reality, and intangible, rooted in a relationship. Both are constant and continuous but neither require or present constant affirmation. They are simply what they are, at this time.
I assume and have found that this is the case with others too and how they describe their "faith" in God and certainly in Jesus Christ as the son of God and redeemer to mankind.
The past is verifiable but a past event no longer exists as an instance of reality in and of itself - in that way the past can never be reconstructed but reality being what it is a past event can be known by the artifacts it produces.
The present is a known piece of data as it occurs. Perception and understanding may vary but not to the extent that I can't know what is at that moment - the house is here, my wife loves me, etc.
It's the Future that gives people hiccups. Will my house be there? Will my wife love me tomorrow? Will God....be there as I have known Him to be there? The answer to all three questions can be "yes".
If the question were "will I go to Heaven someday?"..........as people often ask, that's a good question. I don't have a "heaven" in my past and while this is pretty cool now I don't call it "heaven" if that's the future with God and Jesus Christ and some form of future spiritual life after death. This current life isn't over yet and other events that would change this current existence haven't happened. Yet.
I can believe that based on the fact that my life construct thus far includes that iit is a sound projection - and to that extent I can invest a "faith" in it - but it hasn't happened yet and I would have to say, I'll find out in the future.
In that scenario anyone who would say "no, that's all BS and isn't going to happen" I would say buy me a lottery ticket homes, if you can see the future. I can't that clearly to say with out any doubt that it won't. If it's a future that has never occurred yet there are no artifacts of it's existence that remain - there can't be. That's the nature of existence as we perceive it with the human mind - I can imagine a future, "see it", expect it to be there but there can not be any physical proof that it exists beyond any doubt because it hasn't happened yet.
This is true of all things in life. I think people tend to separate "spiritual" from "physical" arbitrarily. From my perspective they're very much the same and it really depends on how we choose to view them.
That's my position at this time regarding "faith". Everyone else's mileage may vary.
Nice post year 2027! Thank you. Sadly there are many other cults and other religions out there and with them millions of followers with the same tunnel
vision that I had, and perhaps many of us had during tw years. Religions scare people into believing (usually wrong believing) what is right according to
the church, but not according to the bible.
The doctrines and traditions of most churches that I've been too are put there by men and are the commandments of men, Col. 2.8 and are not from God.
So we need to stay vigilant and seek out what is right and what is truth! God Bless
Lotta truth in that one. It is not easy to walk away from church and friends and be the odd one out at all. That is so true. We all have the innate desire to be accepted to others. It is true. That is why we get upset at those quite often that will not accept us as we are, or as we believe. Doesn't matter what it is we believe or don't believe either. Ask Art or anyone here, including myself that doesn't get upset with others. Especially when they attempt to make you look stupid by their coy remarks about I am right, and you are wrong.
I found that a very interesting read myself, Maybe because I am listed somewhere within those that are a non conformist with the masses as well. Their are those around still today that are like that, believe it or not.
I think some of them seem to gather over here from time to time too. So you that are a conformist to the majority, better be careful, for we might just convince you to be one of those like Jesus was himself. As He didn't conform to much of anything within the religious realm of his day at all. I mean he was this kook that was born in a barn, that came on the scene calling other men to "follow me".
Then along came this other guy that wrote a lot of the NT, that got knocked off his a--, onto his a--, some voice saying to Him why are you persecuting me. Or close anyways. Then is blinded, then lead back to Damascus. Having to wait for god to tell this dude Ananias to go to this guy that was a previous Christian killer and do what He was told to do when he got there. So he did, then Paul went staight away preaching Christ for a while, until those same dudes that he was involved with came after him, The good guys letting him down over this wall to escape those that did want to arrest him now. Talk about some nut, Paul was certainly that. One day he is after the good guys to kill them, the next thing you know he is one of em.
Well anyway, Roy, I will leave you with this little tidbit. It takes a nut to know one huh?
LOL
If you do not begin right in the Lord, neither will you be able to continue on ending right either.
Some use scripture whenever it serves to prove what they have chosen to believe. But then reject or ignore others whenever it doesn't, but instead is contradictory to what they have chosen to believe. Instead of finding out why some do contradict others dealing with the same subjects.
I don't see how we got from Ten Reasons Why Most Believers Don't Seriously Question Their Faith to figuring out that I have unbelief, or how any of that really relates to one's "faith" which that guy you quoted seemed to deny....
Of course I have unbelief, does it feel better to state that? I don't deny it nor fear it. I'm not lying to myself, speak for yourself.
Of course I have faith, and I don't question it - the gap is filled by that which I trust in, Jesus Christ.
However now that I know that 1. there is a God and 2. there is a Jesus Christ, I don't question that. Others may, fine.
Others may say I should question it, I don't.
Others may say I need to, they're wrong.
I've had a belly full of anyone telling me I need to question my faith in the things which I have found to be true, simply because it makes them feel better to say I should as if that makes me or them feel better or any smarter. Bull shi t. I don't buy that. I don't worry about it either - they don't have to live in my skin nor I in theirs.
Or as I've said for many years I can't give another my faith nor they give theirs to me. Each has to have their own. Or not. Whichever way it goes is fine with me. :)
this guy has done a study about believe -v- unbelief
you pointed out why you did not like his work than you got prideful with your statement
"Wow, that's a crappy attitude.
Frankly, some of this reads like nonsense - like this statement - "The more we know the more we should doubt"...
SO I pointed that you have unbelief too
this is good study to me but its nonsense to socks
It been better just saying nothing but you acted Way Ministry toward it
than when i try to should you what you were missing you attacked me like the Way Ministry did
When are we going to put this Pride away we both have but only I have face it in my life
with love and a holy kiss Roy
Roy,
Having an opinion or critiquing a post is not unbelief nor is it going all Way Ministry toward it......using words like "crappy" and "attitude" is colorful and descriptive......casual language, and it is fairly accurate IMO. I am surprised you are so quick to judge Socks. Many of your posts go ignored and I think Socks and I were trying to make sure that didn't happen with this one. We were checking in with you.
Having a difference of opinion and politely expressiing and discussing a topic it is not an attack. As you yourself have pointed out.....we can learn from each other. Socks, has a great deal to offer and his insight doesn't translate into pride. That is quite a judgement to make about his posts and really inappropriate IMO. There is heavy irony in your last statement. You have faced your pride and Socks has not faced his? That is a very prideful assumption.
Faith is not merely a belief there is one God ...... devils believe and tremble. Faith is a matter of trust. Doubt and trust are on opposite ends of the spectrum. True faith doesn't come without searching, learning, and a great many questions being answered to our satisfaction. Faith also comes from being in a relationship with someone who is faithful. God is faithful. The bible tells us God is faithful, but God also shows us time and again He is faithful.
Your friend's post assumes a great deal about Christians......did you know that the man who co-mapped the human genome is an Evangelical Christian with a highly analytical mind? Lee Strobel set out to disprove Christian belief in God and ended up writing "The Case for Christ." . John Lennox is a math Don at Oxford and defends Christianity in debates with people like Richard Dawkins. Wipes the floor with him IMO. Who was Harvard named for? The prep school my daughter went to was founded my DL Moody. CS Lewis was once an atheist. DA Carson was at Cambridge .... he knew NT Wright and DG Dunn. The list of thinking Christians is endless.
My friend wrote the book "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist." I agree wholeheartedly......I think it takes a giant leap of faith not to believe in God. I think it takes a genuine suspension of reality to doubt God.
everything is not alright to debate NO because everything is fare to debate
but your pride is getting in your way like socks pride
I have pride too but I read the study that was put in my path
but socks and you show your pride by "It seems to me that this blurb you posted is less about helping people recover from cult abuse and more an attitude about a person's faith in God. Why does he care? Does he want to rescue people from faith in God? He must have the correct way and the right answers about a creator to make the sweeping generalizations he makes. There are a great many assumptions in his post and it smacks of proselytizing. Recruits for an atheist army?"
like Jesus once told one of apostles
Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Peter was letting pride get in his way
this is a man of God that see's though rose color glasses
like you and me or socks and me
I just pointed socks unbelief out
how about you do you have any unbelief because I do
Socks was neither lying nor prideful. Socks never said he had zero unbelief, and he readily posted
he did when that came up. Socks never claimed he was, say, an expert astronaut, either, so it would
not be fair if someone claimed he said he was.
Socks pointed out the original post has problems with it, and sets up people with the opposing
point of view as if ALL of them are idiots and NONE of them ever examined their beliefs.
Disagreeing is neither "being prideful" nor anything like what twi did.
everything is not alright to debate NO because everything is fare to debate
but your pride is getting in your way like socks pride
I have pride too but I read the study that was put in my path
So, either Socks, Geisha and myself agree with you, or the ONLY reason we disagree
is because "pride is getting" in our way? That's called a "false dilemma." You're refusing
to consider there might be plenty of other reasons- which is something that happened with
the original post. The guy refuses to consider Christians may logically and intelligently
consider things and be stronger in faith for them- or actually BECOME CHRISTIANS because of
it. As Geisha pointed out, Lee Strobel set out to DISPROVE Christianity, and eventually became
a Christian because of what he found. He BECAME a Christian because he didn't let his pride
get in the way of changing his mind.
but socks and you show your pride by "It seems to me that this blurb you posted is less about helping people recover from cult abuse and more an attitude about a person's faith in God. Why does he care? Does he want to rescue people from faith in God? He must have the correct way and the right answers about a creator to make the sweeping generalizations he makes. There are a great many assumptions in his post and it smacks of proselytizing. Recruits for an atheist army?"
No, that's Socks DISAGREEING and GIVING HIS OPINION.
Don't mistake DISAGREEING for PRIDE.
We all had enough of that in twi, where DISAGREEING was considered sinful and crimes
against God- and still is. We've learned a lesson or two about that since then.
like Jesus once told one of apostles
Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Peter was letting pride get in his way
this is a man of God that see's though rose color glasses
like you and me or socks and me
I just pointed socks unbelief out
how about you do you have any unbelief because I do
with love and a holy kiss Roy
Jesus confronting Peter is nothing like anything that happened here.
Neither Peter-in that instance- was being prideful, nor was Socks in this instance.
And Socks never said he had no "unbelief." We all have "some unbelief". All humans have
"some unbelief" as well as some "belief". Billions of people believe the Eiffel Tower is
in Paris but have never been there and seen it. Billions of people believe the pyramids
are in Egypt but have never been in there and seen them. We don't fly into a panic when
someone is 3 minutes late meeting us, phoning the hospitals to see if they are dead and
in a morgue.
Nobody here claimed to have no unbelief. Nobody here WOULD claim that, AFAIK. We all freely
admit we're human beings and have some unbelief. We don't need someone to point it out and
convince us of that. We all know that. We all also know objects dropped on Earth will fall
towards the center of the Earth. We don't need someone to point THAT out and convince us
of THAT. We all know that.
Furthermore, the original post had nothing to do with us having any unbelief- it was someone
claiming Christians have a sort of "BLIND faith" and don't believe for any logical reason,
and if we used logic, we'd all become atheists or agnostics like whichever one he is.
you are so religion into your religion you cannot see it
I try to put off my religion everyday putting the pride of self behind me
socks knows we all have unbelief than we have religion problems
This Man is a man of God even if you and socks and geisha do not see it
the pride of fool religion has got in your way
we all must say to ourself get behind me satan of religion which pride
This starts out with "Ten Reasons Why Most Believers Don't Seriously Question Their Faith
By John W. Loftus at 1/17/2012
This topic interests me to no end. Why don't most believers seriously question their faith? Does it take a special type of individual? "
this could be anybody put lets look more
Have you question your faith? or is your religion holding you back from it or are you lying to yourself
to question God can only make him bigger in your life what are you afraid of
-----------------
John W. Loftus is an author and teacher. For roughly two decades John W. Loftus was an evangelical Christian, an ordained minister of the Church of Christ, and an apologist for Christianity. Over the years he gradually began to experience doubts about the veracity of the Christian worldview and became and atheist. Much of his current writing and teaching focuses on his reasons for rejecting Christian beliefs.
In addition to ordained ministry, Loftus taught at several Christian universities. He is currently an adjunct instructor in philosophy at Kellogg Community College.
[edit]Education
John W. Loftus earned M.A. and M.Div. degrees in theology and philosophy from Lincoln Christian Seminary under the guidance of Dr. James D. Strauss. He then attended Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, where he studied under Dr. William Lane Craig and received a Th.M. degree in philosophy of religion.
I read that original post again Roy and I would have to say the same thing again - that guy's got a crappy attitude. When they state "I guess some people just cannot be helped, that's all"to me, that's a crappy funky sucky frame of mind, to say, some people and their faith are just so far gone they can't be helped, that they have low self esteem compared to others like the writer and require an inordinate amount of social approval from others .
Apparently because I won't bow down to these lofty pearls of wisdom you posted I'm prideful. If feeling that way is prideful, fine. Pump me up and put a string on me.
The pride accusation is a derail - why are we discussing my pride or the lack of it?
You also misquoted me with geisha's post but that's okay because I agree with it. Just copy paste from me directly, please.
Sometimes people do have really lousy attitudes, ideas and feelings. I don't pat people on the head and dance with them just so I can appear "balanced" or "open" when I think their ideas are wrong. I'll consider many perspectives and opinions, always have and always will. That won't mean I adopt them or consider them reasonable.
You put it up - what was your intent? This is a "Doctrinal Forum". Where's the Doctrinal discussion? You spend a lot of time making note on GS that others have problems, pride, unbelief, sexual challenges and any number of other things you seem to think they don't want to admit. And now you point the finger of Pride at me.
Really? What's going on Roy?
I have no unbelief? I in fact said the exact opposite - that I accept things by faith in every aspect of life and don't require constant reinforcement of "belief" to accept that certain things are what they are. If I wasn't that clear, I hope that is.
Far as I'm concerned that writer's making points beyond addressing a specific group of people like Way members and beyond advising them to give their beliefs and ideas an honest second look. In fact outside of using the word "believers" there's no reference in context that indicates it might deal with Way members at all.
He says that the matters of a persons faith in God are misguided and wrong.
But frankly, the entire platform that writer used to challenge "faith" is weak when he writes:
4) Ignorance is another reason, sometimes willful ignorance. The more we know the more we should doubt. Any educated person will tell you this. Socrates even said he was wise because he knew one thing others didn't, that he didn't know. The more we know the less we claim to know.
Those are two different things and since he's so dammed educated I'd think he'd realize it but maybe he's really just got a personal hair up his butt about something he isn't stating - he wrote -
The more you know the more you should doubt
Is not the same as
The more you know the more you realize you don't know
It's cutesy to make the statement they did but it's not correct on face value. That isn't what the quote they ascribe to Socrates said - he (supposedly) said that he knew how much he didn't know.
Which is incredibly ironic to me - quoting a man who lived over 2400 years ago who is known largely by those he (supposedly) taught and lived with and now quoting what he is said to have said....in a piece that challenges the faith of others................................
Your guy there reads like just another version of what he claims to argue against - he's so sure that he doesn't know that he's sure others can't know either and if they say they do there's something wrong with them, something that may not be fixable.
If his Socrates statement was recognized for what it reads as, he'd also have to accept that a lack of knowledge doesn't mean the knowledge doesn't exist.
Lastly another example comes to mind - I wouldn't change my mind or doubt that I post here as "socks" - someone else might use that name but when I post, it's me. I don't doubt that, I know that, I'm doing it right now. It's not an academic conclusion, it's a reality.
So can be the foundations upon which one has faith.
Hey Roy - if disagreeing makes one prideful, pour it on. That's one of the hallmarks of the Way's "enculturation" - accusing someone else of being prideful because they dare to question the almighty wisdom of those who say they know better.
I do it all the time. Tattoo a big ? on my head.
I love ya Roy. Don't stop keepin' on. :B) Keep the faith.
Roy, we may disagree but we're alike in one thing - we're persistent.
I'm glad we could share this space.
Loftus is an interesting character. Having had no apparent reality driven basis for his choice of religions, he appears to have chosen the reality he does know. In that way he's a reasonable man in my opinion.
What he then does is not reasonable in my opinion and it's why I take exception to his pseudo philosophical stance - he insists that all other possibilities are possible except for the one he's eliminated. In that he has eliminated it for himself is reasonable, that he denies all possibility of it for others is not. Again, IMO.
If we are dealing with an area that is personal to the individual, he has the freedom to do that of course - for himself. As do you and I.
I saw some pearls in the jewelry store that were enculterated. I wonder if you could cast them before swine....or maybe you should cast the swine first and then the pearls after.
This guy studied under William Lane Craig and has the audacity to speak of a lack of critical thinking skills. Roy, have you ever listened to Dr. William Lane Craig? He is a brilliant and committed scholar who defends the resurrection. Knowing something of Loftus education and then reading his comments actually gives me a little insight. He sounds incredibly arrogant and somewhat bitter. Now I can add pride to shallow, lacking and filled with assumptions.....regarding his post.
I guess he had a crisis of faith and has decided the rest of us should follow......he isn't really inspiring me to abandon Jesus and fill my life with doubt about the things I live for.....I am really not impressed.
I am with Socks, I tire of the invite to join the doubters bandwagon. God is worthy of my faith.
I have begin to employ the real reason people leave ministries or believe systems by looking at myself first so we are talking the first church I was in to the last ministry I was in. We leave one place because it fells to give us we wanted. For me the church did not give the truth then the way ministry fell me but who fell me?
Pride is a dirty word for most of us but it what happen to me I saw my religion as the as the reason for me felling but who really fell short I did. In Matthew it reads Satan get behind me, which pride that got in my way. Yes the pride of religion got in Peter way Peter believe Jesus would him slip way but Jesus did not.
The pride of not being right got in my way and your way when I posted on doctrine and others places about “Ten Reasons Why Most Believers Don't Seriously Question Their Faith” others got what. You tell me did pride made some judge wrong while others saw that they did agreed with the man that every body has right to judge for them selves.
Once you take a stand making a remark about the writer you have let pride get in your way I am not speaking for the man but I also not cutting the man questioning. I quested the Way Ministry by not seeing their Way, as right I should question myself for joining it in the first place. The pride I had for the Way ministry is what got in my way I could not see it because I had pride for Way believes otherwise I was the one that let pride in his way.
But today I search out myself for area’s where I have pride getting in my path and I remove the pride from myself. Look I write “God/man/Atheist/Jesus/Christ/child of God” God for God’s first, Man for the state in am in, Atheist is what I battle against, Jesus is man that saved me from myself, Christ is the birth that is coming, and child of God is what I shall be someday. I see myself has a broken man got up in sin but God loves me enough to make a way out which is God’s son the Christ.
I know this get you where you do not want to face but truth always makes us want to cry because we cannot face the truth but facing the truth is only to free yourself from it. Christ came to free us from yourself cutting the bonds of religion that we put our selves in. Your temple which is your house where every thought lives to be bitter or prideful but it be better to remove every bitterness or prideful felling you can have and replace them with love.
Put on the perfect will of God doing God will from your heart do not get caught in religion pride which does you no good. Be willing to debate anything letting nothing mold you with false religion, which is not right. I am going to end now but thank you all with love of God and a holy kiss from Roy.
Questioning my faith: in my opinion every moment is a question of whether or not I have faith. The challenge of each minute (I had some big ones today that left me in tears) requires that I come to the decision to believe what is written in the Bible and what the Lord says directly to me or not. That's the question of faith with which each person must deal with on a moment by moment basis. No Christian who has lived more than a few moments as such can say he or she has not had to deal with the question of faith at least once or twice. (is the Holy Spirit with me? Am I a failure? Am I alone? Is God real? Who is this Jesus Christ?)
I got a new "grand" who decides at each every-so-often whether to laugh (we are with her) or to cry (she's all alone and IN NEED). She must decide what she is going to believe.
Pearls before swine: In my opinion, the "pearls" are God's precious people, and the "swine" are the demons/the ways of the world. People such as wierwille cast God's precious people to demons/to the ways of the world because he lied and cheated and stole in the name of God and His Holy Word and caused many to reject the Lord because of his example. This also fits with my understanding of the "nicolaitanes" who God hates (Rev 2:6,15) with the interpretation that the "nicolaitanes" are people (laos) overcomers (nike) -- I believe it's those who overcome people's free will and enslave them into the world.
similar scripture handling as viewing the Book of Acts being addressed to "theophilus" as those precious beloved of God rather than a single person named Theophilus.
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socks
"We don't live in a vacuum and some of us are familiar with at least one of the men whose student he claims to have been. Dr. William Lane Craig is pretty well known in Christian circles....he is an
socks
"I guess some people just cannot be helped, that's all."
Wow, that's a crappy attitude.
Frankly, some of this reads like nonsense - like this statement - "The more we know the more we should doubt"...
Or this:
here is an explanation for why believers reason so badly: They have been enculturated, or indoctrinated to believe, a phenomenon that can best be described as being brainwashed.
As soon as I figure out what enculturated means, I'll digest this better but on the surface it's a standard screed. (yeh, I know it's a word, just don't see it a lot and it sounds wrong when you say it, at least to me but that's okay)
Why don't "Most" Believers Seriously Question Their Faith?
It would depend on several things I suppose - one would be how a person comes to hold a specific thing that they define as a point of "faith".
As far as I'm concerned the entire "question your faith" posit is highly over rated and not nearly as effective OR useful as it sounds. It's always trendy to say we should all question the things we "believe in" but it's only useful when approached methodically and with purpose.
NO ONE I know that I respect questions what they believe haphazardly or at the recommendation of someone else simply because someone else suggests they do it. EVERYONE I know, whether I respect them or not, relies heavily on "faith" perceptions to live, at all or do even the simplest of things like go to the store and buy a box of cough drops.
I also differ from the popularly held definition that says "faith" is by nature reliant on the unknown - I would contend that faith must in fact have a core essence grounded and rooted in a reality in order to exist, at all - and it is that essence from which the perception of a faith based belief proceeds.
I don't really care about the article Roy, I just figured I'd chime in. Why is this important to you? Having a 'crises of faith"?
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year2027
God first
thanks Socks
this person took time to think it out to help people who have been in cults to understand
is not that you and me
have you ever though what the main reasons people were leave the way
we can learn from others work or can we
understanding is a step we must all take someday unless your still in the ministry
do you ever want to put the Way ministry in the past
we must face the truth about ourself
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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geisha779
Roy,
When I shop, I carry this big pink binder full of coupons......people often ask me about it, and I have even helped random strangers save some money. The other day a woman was buying a Swifter....I gave her a coupon for 5 dollars off and a coupon for a free refill with purchase. We had a lovely chat and she was very interested in my system for saving. She said I inspired her to clip coupons and start saving. Great....I was happy to talk with her. Others have approached me and wanted to argue the merits of coupons. To them, I usually politely ask why they care HOW I shop.
It seems to me that this blurb you posted is less about helping people recover from cult abuse and more an attitude about a person's faith in God. Why does he care? Does he want to rescue people from faith in God? He must have the correct way and the right answers about a creator to make the sweeping generalizations he makes. There are a great many assumptions in his post and it smacks of proselytizing. Recruits for an atheist army?
What is it you liked about this post? I found it bordering on offensive, but not really worth too much concern...I was just curious about you and what is going on with you.....Are you doing okay?
Hugs! :):)
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socks
Well, yeah. It reads like a call to Atheism. Which is fine but how does that help a person other than to say a faith in God is completely wrong and a lack of faith in God is completely right?
Check this statement out:
One should only conclude what the probabilities show and never assert more than what the evidence leads us to think is probably the case.
What if the probabilities indicate a faith in God is the soundest conclusion? Before anyone checks that off as BS - consider these two faith based scenarios:
1. Everyday I leave my house to drive to work. At the end of the work day I drive back home, assuming that it will be there despite the fact I haven't seen it all day. I don't call a neighbor 10 times a day to make sure it's still there and get satellite photos of it to make sure it is. I know that it should be unless something has caused it to not be there. The basic forces of nature and reality that are at work in everything else tell me that it will be there with enough surety that I can drive home confident it will be there.
2. I am married and have a wife who has said she loves me. She acts like it and has done things we generally know and agree on that define that love, to indicate to me that she, in fact loves me. I don't ask her 10 times a day "do you still love me?" I don't insist that she do things all day long to clearly indicate that she still loves me and that the level of love she has for me at any point in time is the same as it was the last time I checked. I live assuming that she loves me and that if that changes, I'll find out.
In #1, I accept the house is here (it was) for reasons that are both within and beyond my control - I don't control gravity or any of the other forces that would cause the house to remain in one state and in one place. I do control certain factors that govern the condition of it's existence. Between the two, the house is and will be until other forces cause it not to be.
In # 2, I accept that the relationship is two way and that we both have responsibilities for it to continue. I expect it to exist until other forces cause it not to, and those are forces that are both knowable and unknowable, I don't directly control their existence. .
In both scenarios, "faith" is a factor based on data that indicates that faith is predictable and reliable and doesn't require continuous affirmation or proof to exist. They both exist, in a sense, outside my own control or grasp, but affected by my relationship with them. The house is a tangible "thing" that I relate to physically - the Love is an intangible "thing", a quality that produces activity and tangibles.
In both scenarios I have faith that they exist when I'm not in contact with them and when there is no immediate proof of their existence. Yet I rely on my knowledge of them that they do in fact exist
My "faith" in God is similar to both - it's tangible and rooted in reality, and intangible, rooted in a relationship. Both are constant and continuous but neither require or present constant affirmation. They are simply what they are, at this time.
I assume and have found that this is the case with others too and how they describe their "faith" in God and certainly in Jesus Christ as the son of God and redeemer to mankind.
The past is verifiable but a past event no longer exists as an instance of reality in and of itself - in that way the past can never be reconstructed but reality being what it is a past event can be known by the artifacts it produces.
The present is a known piece of data as it occurs. Perception and understanding may vary but not to the extent that I can't know what is at that moment - the house is here, my wife loves me, etc.
It's the Future that gives people hiccups. Will my house be there? Will my wife love me tomorrow? Will God....be there as I have known Him to be there? The answer to all three questions can be "yes".
If the question were "will I go to Heaven someday?"..........as people often ask, that's a good question. I don't have a "heaven" in my past and while this is pretty cool now I don't call it "heaven" if that's the future with God and Jesus Christ and some form of future spiritual life after death. This current life isn't over yet and other events that would change this current existence haven't happened. Yet.
I can believe that based on the fact that my life construct thus far includes that iit is a sound projection - and to that extent I can invest a "faith" in it - but it hasn't happened yet and I would have to say, I'll find out in the future.
In that scenario anyone who would say "no, that's all BS and isn't going to happen" I would say buy me a lottery ticket homes, if you can see the future. I can't that clearly to say with out any doubt that it won't. If it's a future that has never occurred yet there are no artifacts of it's existence that remain - there can't be. That's the nature of existence as we perceive it with the human mind - I can imagine a future, "see it", expect it to be there but there can not be any physical proof that it exists beyond any doubt because it hasn't happened yet.
This is true of all things in life. I think people tend to separate "spiritual" from "physical" arbitrarily. From my perspective they're very much the same and it really depends on how we choose to view them.
That's my position at this time regarding "faith". Everyone else's mileage may vary.
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Human without the bean
Nice post year 2027! Thank you. Sadly there are many other cults and other religions out there and with them millions of followers with the same tunnel
vision that I had, and perhaps many of us had during tw years. Religions scare people into believing (usually wrong believing) what is right according to
the church, but not according to the bible.
The doctrines and traditions of most churches that I've been too are put there by men and are the commandments of men, Col. 2.8 and are not from God.
So we need to stay vigilant and seek out what is right and what is truth! God Bless
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year2027
from another board
Lotta truth in that one. It is not easy to walk away from church and friends and be the odd one out at all. That is so true. We all have the innate desire to be accepted to others. It is true. That is why we get upset at those quite often that will not accept us as we are, or as we believe. Doesn't matter what it is we believe or don't believe either. Ask Art or anyone here, including myself that doesn't get upset with others. Especially when they attempt to make you look stupid by their coy remarks about I am right, and you are wrong.
I found that a very interesting read myself, Maybe because I am listed somewhere within those that are a non conformist with the masses as well. Their are those around still today that are like that, believe it or not.
I think some of them seem to gather over here from time to time too. So you that are a conformist to the majority, better be careful, for we might just convince you to be one of those like Jesus was himself. As He didn't conform to much of anything within the religious realm of his day at all. I mean he was this kook that was born in a barn, that came on the scene calling other men to "follow me".
Then along came this other guy that wrote a lot of the NT, that got knocked off his a--, onto his a--, some voice saying to Him why are you persecuting me. Or close anyways. Then is blinded, then lead back to Damascus. Having to wait for god to tell this dude Ananias to go to this guy that was a previous Christian killer and do what He was told to do when he got there. So he did, then Paul went staight away preaching Christ for a while, until those same dudes that he was involved with came after him, The good guys letting him down over this wall to escape those that did want to arrest him now. Talk about some nut, Paul was certainly that. One day he is after the good guys to kill them, the next thing you know he is one of em.
Well anyway, Roy, I will leave you with this little tidbit. It takes a nut to know one huh?
LOL
If you do not begin right in the Lord, neither will you be able to continue on ending right either.
Some use scripture whenever it serves to prove what they have chosen to believe. But then reject or ignore others whenever it doesn't, but instead is contradictory to what they have chosen to believe. Instead of finding out why some do contradict others dealing with the same subjects.
Love in Christ,
Sandy
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year2027
God first
thanks geisha779
it is thinking outside religion
just you try to save money with out coupon
while that not me I would tell a person to used them
but if you see it is to get truthful that ok
like can you name 10 reasons why you believe in God with having some lying in it
sure the God's tells us to but do you
is there not even 1% of unbelief there because your not perfect either
we all have some unbelief in our walk that why we need God
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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year2027
God first
thanks Socks
it is like saying we believing 100% of the time but we can only believe 99% of time
we are lying to ourself
it takes to make it complete
do you remember the father that Jesus to help his unbelief so is socks greater that the father there
NO SOCKS STILL HAS UNBELIEF socks must battle socks walk
with love and a holy kiss Roy
God first
thanks Human without the bean
you have blessed me my friend
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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socks
?
I don't see how we got from Ten Reasons Why Most Believers Don't Seriously Question Their Faith to figuring out that I have unbelief, or how any of that really relates to one's "faith" which that guy you quoted seemed to deny....
Of course I have unbelief, does it feel better to state that? I don't deny it nor fear it. I'm not lying to myself, speak for yourself.
Of course I have faith, and I don't question it - the gap is filled by that which I trust in, Jesus Christ.
However now that I know that 1. there is a God and 2. there is a Jesus Christ, I don't question that. Others may, fine.
Others may say I should question it, I don't.
Others may say I need to, they're wrong.
I've had a belly full of anyone telling me I need to question my faith in the things which I have found to be true, simply because it makes them feel better to say I should as if that makes me or them feel better or any smarter. Bull shi t. I don't buy that. I don't worry about it either - they don't have to live in my skin nor I in theirs.
Or as I've said for many years I can't give another my faith nor they give theirs to me. Each has to have their own. Or not. Whichever way it goes is fine with me. :)
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year2027
God first
thanks Socks
I do not want your faith
I do not care what you believe or do not
this guy has done a study about believe -v- unbelief
you pointed out why you did not like his work than you got prideful with your statement
"Wow, that's a crappy attitude.
Frankly, some of this reads like nonsense - like this statement - "The more we know the more we should doubt"...
SO I pointed that you have unbelief too
this is good study to me but its nonsense to socks
It been better just saying nothing but you acted Way Ministry toward it
than when i try to should you what you were missing you attacked me like the Way Ministry did
When are we going to put this Pride away we both have but only I have face it in my life
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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geisha779
Roy,
Having an opinion or critiquing a post is not unbelief nor is it going all Way Ministry toward it......using words like "crappy" and "attitude" is colorful and descriptive......casual language, and it is fairly accurate IMO. I am surprised you are so quick to judge Socks. Many of your posts go ignored and I think Socks and I were trying to make sure that didn't happen with this one. We were checking in with you.
Having a difference of opinion and politely expressiing and discussing a topic it is not an attack. As you yourself have pointed out.....we can learn from each other. Socks, has a great deal to offer and his insight doesn't translate into pride. That is quite a judgement to make about his posts and really inappropriate IMO. There is heavy irony in your last statement. You have faced your pride and Socks has not faced his? That is a very prideful assumption.
Faith is not merely a belief there is one God ...... devils believe and tremble. Faith is a matter of trust. Doubt and trust are on opposite ends of the spectrum. True faith doesn't come without searching, learning, and a great many questions being answered to our satisfaction. Faith also comes from being in a relationship with someone who is faithful. God is faithful. The bible tells us God is faithful, but God also shows us time and again He is faithful.
Your friend's post assumes a great deal about Christians......did you know that the man who co-mapped the human genome is an Evangelical Christian with a highly analytical mind? Lee Strobel set out to disprove Christian belief in God and ended up writing "The Case for Christ." . John Lennox is a math Don at Oxford and defends Christianity in debates with people like Richard Dawkins. Wipes the floor with him IMO. Who was Harvard named for? The prep school my daughter went to was founded my DL Moody. CS Lewis was once an atheist. DA Carson was at Cambridge .... he knew NT Wright and DG Dunn. The list of thinking Christians is endless.
My friend wrote the book "I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist." I agree wholeheartedly......I think it takes a giant leap of faith not to believe in God. I think it takes a genuine suspension of reality to doubt God.
Take care Roy.....hugs!
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year2027
God first
thanks geisha
I never said i am not in same boat as socks
what is unbelief than? we have some is honest
saying we do not all have any is lying
socks was pride ful in his statement
everything is not alright to debate NO because everything is fare to debate
but your pride is getting in your way like socks pride
I have pride too but I read the study that was put in my path
but socks and you show your pride by "It seems to me that this blurb you posted is less about helping people recover from cult abuse and more an attitude about a person's faith in God. Why does he care? Does he want to rescue people from faith in God? He must have the correct way and the right answers about a creator to make the sweeping generalizations he makes. There are a great many assumptions in his post and it smacks of proselytizing. Recruits for an atheist army?"
like Jesus once told one of apostles
Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Peter was letting pride get in his way
this is a man of God that see's though rose color glasses
like you and me or socks and me
I just pointed socks unbelief out
how about you do you have any unbelief because I do
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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WordWolf
Socks was neither lying nor prideful. Socks never said he had zero unbelief, and he readily posted
he did when that came up. Socks never claimed he was, say, an expert astronaut, either, so it would
not be fair if someone claimed he said he was.
Socks pointed out the original post has problems with it, and sets up people with the opposing
point of view as if ALL of them are idiots and NONE of them ever examined their beliefs.
Disagreeing is neither "being prideful" nor anything like what twi did.
So, either Socks, Geisha and myself agree with you, or the ONLY reason we disagree
is because "pride is getting" in our way? That's called a "false dilemma." You're refusing
to consider there might be plenty of other reasons- which is something that happened with
the original post. The guy refuses to consider Christians may logically and intelligently
consider things and be stronger in faith for them- or actually BECOME CHRISTIANS because of
it. As Geisha pointed out, Lee Strobel set out to DISPROVE Christianity, and eventually became
a Christian because of what he found. He BECAME a Christian because he didn't let his pride
get in the way of changing his mind.
No, that's Socks DISAGREEING and GIVING HIS OPINION.
Don't mistake DISAGREEING for PRIDE.
We all had enough of that in twi, where DISAGREEING was considered sinful and crimes
against God- and still is. We've learned a lesson or two about that since then.
Jesus confronting Peter is nothing like anything that happened here.
Neither Peter-in that instance- was being prideful, nor was Socks in this instance.
And Socks never said he had no "unbelief." We all have "some unbelief". All humans have
"some unbelief" as well as some "belief". Billions of people believe the Eiffel Tower is
in Paris but have never been there and seen it. Billions of people believe the pyramids
are in Egypt but have never been in there and seen them. We don't fly into a panic when
someone is 3 minutes late meeting us, phoning the hospitals to see if they are dead and
in a morgue.
Nobody here claimed to have no unbelief. Nobody here WOULD claim that, AFAIK. We all freely
admit we're human beings and have some unbelief. We don't need someone to point it out and
convince us of that. We all know that. We all also know objects dropped on Earth will fall
towards the center of the Earth. We don't need someone to point THAT out and convince us
of THAT. We all know that.
Furthermore, the original post had nothing to do with us having any unbelief- it was someone
claiming Christians have a sort of "BLIND faith" and don't believe for any logical reason,
and if we used logic, we'd all become atheists or agnostics like whichever one he is.
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year2027
God first
thanks WordWolf
what fools we became when pride in our ways
you are so religion into your religion you cannot see it
I try to put off my religion everyday putting the pride of self behind me
socks knows we all have unbelief than we have religion problems
This Man is a man of God even if you and socks and geisha do not see it
the pride of fool religion has got in your way
we all must say to ourself get behind me satan of religion which pride
This starts out with "Ten Reasons Why Most Believers Don't Seriously Question Their Faith
By John W. Loftus at 1/17/2012
This topic interests me to no end. Why don't most believers seriously question their faith? Does it take a special type of individual? "
this could be anybody put lets look more
Have you question your faith? or is your religion holding you back from it or are you lying to yourself
to question God can only make him bigger in your life what are you afraid of
-----------------
John W. Loftus is an author and teacher. For roughly two decades John W. Loftus was an evangelical Christian, an ordained minister of the Church of Christ, and an apologist for Christianity. Over the years he gradually began to experience doubts about the veracity of the Christian worldview and became and atheist. Much of his current writing and teaching focuses on his reasons for rejecting Christian beliefs.
In addition to ordained ministry, Loftus taught at several Christian universities. He is currently an adjunct instructor in philosophy at Kellogg Community College.
[edit]Education
John W. Loftus earned M.A. and M.Div. degrees in theology and philosophy from Lincoln Christian Seminary under the guidance of Dr. James D. Strauss. He then attended Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, where he studied under Dr. William Lane Craig and received a Th.M. degree in philosophy of religion.
---------------------------------------------------
so this man is one of us
high on religion a normal human
with beliefs and unbeliefs he can not get away from
To said this work is one of Atheist is wrong to say his work is one of Christian is wrong too
this man is man that battles his unbelief by his beliefs
that the anybody can do
we must question everything about ourself
to become more like Christ
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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socks
Hmmmm....
I read that original post again Roy and I would have to say the same thing again - that guy's got a crappy attitude. When they state "I guess some people just cannot be helped, that's all" to me, that's a crappy funky sucky frame of mind, to say, some people and their faith are just so far gone they can't be helped, that they have low self esteem compared to others like the writer and require an inordinate amount of social approval from others .
Apparently because I won't bow down to these lofty pearls of wisdom you posted I'm prideful. If feeling that way is prideful, fine. Pump me up and put a string on me.
The pride accusation is a derail - why are we discussing my pride or the lack of it?
You also misquoted me with geisha's post but that's okay because I agree with it. Just copy paste from me directly, please.
Sometimes people do have really lousy attitudes, ideas and feelings. I don't pat people on the head and dance with them just so I can appear "balanced" or "open" when I think their ideas are wrong. I'll consider many perspectives and opinions, always have and always will. That won't mean I adopt them or consider them reasonable.
You put it up - what was your intent? This is a "Doctrinal Forum". Where's the Doctrinal discussion? You spend a lot of time making note on GS that others have problems, pride, unbelief, sexual challenges and any number of other things you seem to think they don't want to admit. And now you point the finger of Pride at me.
Really? What's going on Roy?
I have no unbelief? I in fact said the exact opposite - that I accept things by faith in every aspect of life and don't require constant reinforcement of "belief" to accept that certain things are what they are. If I wasn't that clear, I hope that is.
Far as I'm concerned that writer's making points beyond addressing a specific group of people like Way members and beyond advising them to give their beliefs and ideas an honest second look. In fact outside of using the word "believers" there's no reference in context that indicates it might deal with Way members at all.
He says that the matters of a persons faith in God are misguided and wrong.
But frankly, the entire platform that writer used to challenge "faith" is weak when he writes:
4) Ignorance is another reason, sometimes willful ignorance. The more we know the more we should doubt. Any educated person will tell you this. Socrates even said he was wise because he knew one thing others didn't, that he didn't know. The more we know the less we claim to know.
Those are two different things and since he's so dammed educated I'd think he'd realize it but maybe he's really just got a personal hair up his butt about something he isn't stating - he wrote -
The more you know the more you should doubt
Is not the same as
The more you know the more you realize you don't know
It's cutesy to make the statement they did but it's not correct on face value. That isn't what the quote they ascribe to Socrates said - he (supposedly) said that he knew how much he didn't know.
Which is incredibly ironic to me - quoting a man who lived over 2400 years ago who is known largely by those he (supposedly) taught and lived with and now quoting what he is said to have said....in a piece that challenges the faith of others................................
Your guy there reads like just another version of what he claims to argue against - he's so sure that he doesn't know that he's sure others can't know either and if they say they do there's something wrong with them, something that may not be fixable.
If his Socrates statement was recognized for what it reads as, he'd also have to accept that a lack of knowledge doesn't mean the knowledge doesn't exist.
Lastly another example comes to mind - I wouldn't change my mind or doubt that I post here as "socks" - someone else might use that name but when I post, it's me. I don't doubt that, I know that, I'm doing it right now. It's not an academic conclusion, it's a reality.
So can be the foundations upon which one has faith.
Hey Roy - if disagreeing makes one prideful, pour it on. That's one of the hallmarks of the Way's "enculturation" - accusing someone else of being prideful because they dare to question the almighty wisdom of those who say they know better.
I do it all the time. Tattoo a big ? on my head.
I love ya Roy. Don't stop keepin' on. :B) Keep the faith.
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year2027
God first
thanks Socks
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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socks
Roy, we may disagree but we're alike in one thing - we're persistent.
I'm glad we could share this space.
Loftus is an interesting character. Having had no apparent reality driven basis for his choice of religions, he appears to have chosen the reality he does know. In that way he's a reasonable man in my opinion.
What he then does is not reasonable in my opinion and it's why I take exception to his pseudo philosophical stance - he insists that all other possibilities are possible except for the one he's eliminated. In that he has eliminated it for himself is reasonable, that he denies all possibility of it for others is not. Again, IMO.
If we are dealing with an area that is personal to the individual, he has the freedom to do that of course - for himself. As do you and I.
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waysider
I saw some pearls in the jewelry store that were enculterated. I wonder if you could cast them before swine....or maybe you should cast the swine first and then the pearls after.
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geisha779
This guy studied under William Lane Craig and has the audacity to speak of a lack of critical thinking skills. Roy, have you ever listened to Dr. William Lane Craig? He is a brilliant and committed scholar who defends the resurrection. Knowing something of Loftus education and then reading his comments actually gives me a little insight. He sounds incredibly arrogant and somewhat bitter. Now I can add pride to shallow, lacking and filled with assumptions.....regarding his post.
I guess he had a crisis of faith and has decided the rest of us should follow......he isn't really inspiring me to abandon Jesus and fill my life with doubt about the things I live for.....I am really not impressed.
I am with Socks, I tire of the invite to join the doubters bandwagon. God is worthy of my faith.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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year2027
God first
thanks socks and geisha779
with love and a holy kiss Roy
God/man/Atheist/Jesus/Christ/child of God
Why I got out the Way Ministry?
01-24-25-2012
I have begin to employ the real reason people leave ministries or believe systems by looking at myself first so we are talking the first church I was in to the last ministry I was in. We leave one place because it fells to give us we wanted. For me the church did not give the truth then the way ministry fell me but who fell me?
Pride is a dirty word for most of us but it what happen to me I saw my religion as the as the reason for me felling but who really fell short I did. In Matthew it reads Satan get behind me, which pride that got in my way. Yes the pride of religion got in Peter way Peter believe Jesus would him slip way but Jesus did not.
The pride of not being right got in my way and your way when I posted on doctrine and others places about “Ten Reasons Why Most Believers Don't Seriously Question Their Faith” others got what. You tell me did pride made some judge wrong while others saw that they did agreed with the man that every body has right to judge for them selves.
Once you take a stand making a remark about the writer you have let pride get in your way I am not speaking for the man but I also not cutting the man questioning. I quested the Way Ministry by not seeing their Way, as right I should question myself for joining it in the first place. The pride I had for the Way ministry is what got in my way I could not see it because I had pride for Way believes otherwise I was the one that let pride in his way.
But today I search out myself for area’s where I have pride getting in my path and I remove the pride from myself. Look I write “God/man/Atheist/Jesus/Christ/child of God” God for God’s first, Man for the state in am in, Atheist is what I battle against, Jesus is man that saved me from myself, Christ is the birth that is coming, and child of God is what I shall be someday. I see myself has a broken man got up in sin but God loves me enough to make a way out which is God’s son the Christ.
I know this get you where you do not want to face but truth always makes us want to cry because we cannot face the truth but facing the truth is only to free yourself from it. Christ came to free us from yourself cutting the bonds of religion that we put our selves in. Your temple which is your house where every thought lives to be bitter or prideful but it be better to remove every bitterness or prideful felling you can have and replace them with love.
Put on the perfect will of God doing God will from your heart do not get caught in religion pride which does you no good. Be willing to debate anything letting nothing mold you with false religion, which is not right. I am going to end now but thank you all with love of God and a holy kiss from Roy.
thanks waysider
yes there are some jewelry
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Ham
The main reason why most *believers* don't seriously question their faith..
maybe they can't. Maybe thinking outside of the box requires the box to be reduced to ash, if not only for a fraction of a second..
to echo the main theme of another nutcase similar to me.. actually, a wise teacher. Maybe there isn't any difference.
"what would you do if you found that EVERYTHING you believed was just plain WRONG.."
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Ham
Maybe it is a gift.. I dunno..
the burning, or consumption that is.
The box slowly grows back, but I know it really is not there.. its really not me..
fine. I need some kind of skin or something to clothe myself..
otherwise I will just sleep..
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year2027
God first
thanks Ham
thank you my friend
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Kit Sober
Questioning my faith: in my opinion every moment is a question of whether or not I have faith. The challenge of each minute (I had some big ones today that left me in tears) requires that I come to the decision to believe what is written in the Bible and what the Lord says directly to me or not. That's the question of faith with which each person must deal with on a moment by moment basis. No Christian who has lived more than a few moments as such can say he or she has not had to deal with the question of faith at least once or twice. (is the Holy Spirit with me? Am I a failure? Am I alone? Is God real? Who is this Jesus Christ?)
I got a new "grand" who decides at each every-so-often whether to laugh (we are with her) or to cry (she's all alone and IN NEED). She must decide what she is going to believe.
Pearls before swine: In my opinion, the "pearls" are God's precious people, and the "swine" are the demons/the ways of the world. People such as wierwille cast God's precious people to demons/to the ways of the world because he lied and cheated and stole in the name of God and His Holy Word and caused many to reject the Lord because of his example. This also fits with my understanding of the "nicolaitanes" who God hates (Rev 2:6,15) with the interpretation that the "nicolaitanes" are people (laos) overcomers (nike) -- I believe it's those who overcome people's free will and enslave them into the world.
similar scripture handling as viewing the Book of Acts being addressed to "theophilus" as those precious beloved of God rather than a single person named Theophilus.
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