Indeed, TWI became, in practice, what Wierwille demonstrated in practice. There was a time or two when his wrath was directed at me. SOOO many years ago. Thankfully, many years ago.
Yeah, we get it....he was not a good guy....but really? We have to mock his cancer and eye? Rejoicing in someone else suffering, no matter how bad they were, makes me queasy.
Yeah, we get it....he was not a good guy....but really? We have to mock his cancer and eye? Rejoicing in someone else suffering, no matter how bad they were, makes me queasy.
geisha.....in some ways, wierwille's ocular melanoma JUXTAPOSES the hypocrisy of three things: 1) Wierwille's "law of believing" in pfal, 2) Cancer is a devil spirit and 3) Flat-out lies from twi's trustees......and IS subject to ridicule.
When twi's founder, victor paul wierwille, was confronted with liver cancer and ocular cancer......the "emporer has no clothes" moment was upon them. Could wierwille face down his health issues with "THE LAW OF BELIEVING" and testify of its validity? Were the household of believers asked to join in prayer with specifics? And, after wierwille's death did the trustees detail the account with any amount of specificity? No, no and no.
To me, wierwille's cancer and eye personify THE DECEPTION AND DEMISE OF THE WIERWILLE DOCTRINE.
Yeah.....I'll admit that the following scripture is a stretch to wierwille calling on his "law of believing" to be healed
but it does point out how one mocks the absurdity of the exercise. Maybe wierwille wasn't properly 'in alignment' or his
'needs and wants' weren't parallel or....??? Just saying.....micromanaged formulas don't actually work like twi teaches.
1Ki 18:27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he [is] a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, [or] peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.
I can see ridiculing the law of the believing and the other things you mentioned and the hypocrisy of his having cancer. It is just a thing with me about laughing at his eye falling out or cartoons of eyeballs. I don't know how painful his cancer was, but, not all that long ago, I watched my brother die of cancer. It was horrible and he suffered. I wasn't close to my brother, we did not speak for 14 years because he was angry with me. Yet, when no one else helped I did, because I can't stand to see anyone suffer. I was with him for all of it and there at the end. It broke my heart. I really wouldn't wish that pain on my worst enemy.
I have no problem with justice.....I just consider it God's domain.
Maybe it is too close to what I went through.
I don't want to make anyone here feel bad either because I know people here have suffered equally in other ways.
Carry on . . . . I understand what you are saying....I just feel differently is all. Peace.
I can see ridiculing the law of the believing and the other things you mentioned and the hypocrisy of his having cancer. It is just a thing with me about laughing at his eye falling out or cartoons of eyeballs. I don't know how painful his cancer was, but, not all that long ago, I watched my brother die of cancer. It was horrible and he suffered. I wasn't close to my brother, we did not speak for 14 years because he was angry with me. Yet, when no one else helped I did, because I can't stand to see anyone suffer. I was with him for all of it and there at the end. It broke my heart. I really wouldn't wish that pain on my worst enemy.
I have no problem with justice.....I just consider it God's domain.
Maybe it is too close to what I went through.
I don't want to make anyone here feel bad either because I know people here have suffered equally in other ways.
Carry on . . . . I understand what you are saying....I just feel differently is all. Peace.
My own brother died of cancer in 2006. I can very well understand what you are saying. You and I may disagree about some things, but that doesn't mean we aren't sympatico at a deeper level.
My own brother died of cancer in 2006. I can very well understand what you are saying. You and I may disagree about some things, but that doesn't mean we aren't sympatico at a deeper level.
Anyone who had any kind of health issue was an affront to the doctrine of TWI. I would see people who were coping with blindness, cerebral palsy, or other chronic ailments for a while and then they were gone, vanished into thin air.
When I was diagnosed with IDDM I was immediately labeled as weak, without character, and surely having committed some grievous sin for God to smite me with this disease.
Caused at least in part by stress, adult onset type I diabetes, AKA juvenile onset diabetes, was probably brought on by a raging, flu-like viral infection combined with a genetic predisposition and aggravated by the stress of being in the FWC. But to them it was clear cut evidence of spiritual sickness and disease, which is only cured by amputation of the sick part from the healthy body.
So when I look back and realize that all these people are going to get sick and die, too, it seems very ironic to me. Do they think they will live forever, young, healthy and vigorous?
So when I look back and realize that all these people are going to get sick and die, too, it seems very ironic to me. Do they think they will live forever, young, healthy and vigorous?
No. Something I realized, and took some level of justice in for the way my family was treated: their time will come. Not that I relish the thought of anyone unhealthy.
foolishly, yes, they thought Satan was assasinated on the day of Pentecost and Earth was once again the Garden of Eden, so no more sickness/illness/disease. Wierwille wasn't the only idiot who thought/beleved that, Herbert Armstrong of Worldwide Church of God was another.
Anyone who had any kind of health issue was an affront to the doctrine of TWI. I would see people who were coping with blindness, cerebral palsy, or other chronic ailments for a while and then they were gone, vanished into thin air.
Ironic, isn't it?
A "ministry" that prides itself in having truth, and all the right answers, and the mog of the universe in their midst....
was pathetically dismissive of others' health issues. What about the compassionate believing for DELIVERANCE?
What about the guy who fell out of the upper window during Paul's lengthy testimonies of God's goodness? Did Paul scold him
for FALLING ASLEEP? Did Paul send another guy down there to check on him? Did Paul go on to expound on 'attention to detail?'
No, no, and no. Paul went down himself.....and the Lord gave deliverance.
From everything I witnessed in my 8 years of corps/staff ----- wierwille was the antithesis of ACTIONABLE godly doctrine.
Yet, I can distinctly remember ministering healing, i.e. praying for people and seeing them get healed. One girl when I was a WOW had instant resolution of a vicious migraine. I don't recall the earliest years being like that. (1973-77). I do recall one time when my WOW sister, on her interim year from 4th WC, was ill and I offered to pray for her. She informed that a graduate of the Advanced Class should not get sick or should be able to believe for themselves without assistance. My reply was that I was not taking the Advanced Class, ever, because I knew I was weak at times and needed prayer and "ministering to."
Of course in FLO we were required to if we hadn't already.
But what a goofy thing to say. As I recall in the Book of Acts, Paul was stoned to death and the believers gathered around him and prayed for him until he was revived.
During my 24-year twi involvement.....The most fiery, sustained confrontations from wierwille and martindale were leveled at dissenting leadership. Nothing else comparable to it! The most divisive, vicious, vein-popping, profanity-spewing and sustained-intensity periods of 'hatred' were unloaded in closed-corps meetings!! Three of such verbal attacks from wierwille are still vivid in my mind to this day.....and its been 30 years ago. Yet, with martindale's confrontations......I can think of some eight to ten over-the-top rantings during long-distant corps meetings via telephone hook-up locations!
All those "grandpa" images of wierwille were shattered!
All that "you're the best" one-liners was cheap-speak!
All that "spirit is thicker than blood" was a joke!
These fiery confrontations were delivered with vehement anger that, several times, lasted 15-20, minutes!!! If you were on the receiving end of one of these....it would seem like an eternity. A couple of times I received "mini-confrontations" and it was perplexingly ugly.
Why all the huffing and puffing....and trying to blow my house down? Why the verbal strip-search? In what deep abyss does this venom and evil-fire reside?
Yes, Jesus addressed major confrontation in Matthew 15 [TO the Pharisees].....but where in the Scriptures does Jesus verbally assault his men, his disciples? Even Judas, the sop was given. Anger? Venom? Where is it? What about the Apostle Paul?
If someone can point me to those scriptures, I would like to see them.
If someone can show me wierwille's fiery anger was justified.....I will consider.
But until then, I contend that wierwille's confrontations were masking a taskmaster.
Same with martindale (and Rosie).....the evil makings of two-fold their corpsmaster.
What's the objective of these fiery confrontations for others to see?
DON'T YOU DARE THINK OF DISSENTING...
DON'T YOU DARE CHALLENGE MY AUTHORITY...
DON'T YOU DARE MURMUR OR DISPUTE MY RESEARCH...
If you want to "take me on"........then, wierwille will shred you to pieces. Textbook character assassination is awaiting all those who dissent or assemble an insurrection. The trustees will NOT allow it. The security patrol have eyes and ears everywhere. Even if you conspire off-grounds, when you're on twi property they are WATCHING you. They know the beginning signs of dissent are manifested in thoughts, words and then, actions!!
There are reasons why nearly 475 clergy are NO LONGER WITH TWI.
Cowering thru life is --- NO WAY TO LIVE.
Sky, VPW was seriously mental ill; and you aren't. Â I think you expected him to react in a sane, and rational manner. Â But he couldn't, because he probably didn't know how. Â What a jealous, insecure, pathetic POS, for a human being. Â I can't believe you could deal with it for that many years. Â I would have done him to F-off, and left. Â Of course, that would have been easy for me to do; I never had a spouse, or kids. Â When you have a family, you have to put up with a lot more garbage, I think. Â I am so happy that you, and yours got out, and stayed out.
No matter who he was looking at or talking to Vic and Craig both used that record to justify their unbridled anger. The way still teaches about spiritual anger and confrontation and still use this record to justify their error.
My therapist told me once, that certain types of anger are unhealthy. Â I think unbridled anger would be one.
Ever notice how, when Mr. Wierwille's character gets called into question, there are those who insist on drawing others into some sort of discussion of Biblical parallels?
"Oh, what about David? What about Jesus?,blah, blah, blah."
We don't live in Biblical times and Wierwille wasn't a Biblical figure. He was just a two-bit con man from Cornfield County who used the Bible to cloak his deception. He had an ego the size of a '58 Buick and couldn't stand to be one-upped. It's really just that simple.
Way, you have a wonderful way with words!! Â I love your posts!
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dabobbada
Foolish mortals, have ye no fear THE living god???!! Look at the early old testament books of Waydale and I and II Greasespot and tremble!! Once unleased, THE noun rose up into godhood and took poss
OldSkool
Jesus cast out spirits and kept the people, the way international has cast out the people and kept the spirits. (I dunno, sounded pithy enough to post )
skyrider
Jim.....thanks for verifying this incident. Wierwille-defenders like to turn the tables on whoever brings solid testimony of wierwille's wrath and character. Just like wierwille's wrecked twig-hop
excathedra
W - weenie
I - i am the only mog that matters
E - evil
R - raging
W - way corps suck weenie
I
L
L
ill stands for itself
E - eye drops out of head ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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Rocky
Indeed, TWI became, in practice, what Wierwille demonstrated in practice. There was a time or two when his wrath was directed at me. SOOO many years ago. Thankfully, many years ago.
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skyrider
The fiery confrontations, jump-on-command, self-serving, you-can-stay-as-long-as-your-money-holds-out......was the REAL wierwille.
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waysider
"*Sniff, sniff, sniff*.
I gave my EYE for you kids.
*Sniff*"
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geisha779
Yeah, we get it....he was not a good guy....but really? We have to mock his cancer and eye? Rejoicing in someone else suffering, no matter how bad they were, makes me queasy.
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skyrider
geisha.....in some ways, wierwille's ocular melanoma JUXTAPOSES the hypocrisy of three things: 1) Wierwille's "law of believing" in pfal, 2) Cancer is a devil spirit and 3) Flat-out lies from twi's trustees......and IS subject to ridicule.
When twi's founder, victor paul wierwille, was confronted with liver cancer and ocular cancer......the "emporer has no clothes" moment was upon them. Could wierwille face down his health issues with "THE LAW OF BELIEVING" and testify of its validity? Were the household of believers asked to join in prayer with specifics? And, after wierwille's death did the trustees detail the account with any amount of specificity? No, no and no.
To me, wierwille's cancer and eye personify THE DECEPTION AND DEMISE OF THE WIERWILLE DOCTRINE.
Yeah.....I'll admit that the following scripture is a stretch to wierwille calling on his "law of believing" to be healed
but it does point out how one mocks the absurdity of the exercise. Maybe wierwille wasn't properly 'in alignment' or his
'needs and wants' weren't parallel or....??? Just saying.....micromanaged formulas don't actually work like twi teaches.
1Ki 18:27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he [is] a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, [or] peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.
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geisha779
Skyrider,
I can see ridiculing the law of the believing and the other things you mentioned and the hypocrisy of his having cancer. It is just a thing with me about laughing at his eye falling out or cartoons of eyeballs. I don't know how painful his cancer was, but, not all that long ago, I watched my brother die of cancer. It was horrible and he suffered. I wasn't close to my brother, we did not speak for 14 years because he was angry with me. Yet, when no one else helped I did, because I can't stand to see anyone suffer. I was with him for all of it and there at the end. It broke my heart. I really wouldn't wish that pain on my worst enemy.
I have no problem with justice.....I just consider it God's domain.
Maybe it is too close to what I went through.
I don't want to make anyone here feel bad either because I know people here have suffered equally in other ways.
Carry on . . . . I understand what you are saying....I just feel differently is all. Peace.
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skyrider
Enter GreaseSpot Cafe......isn't that why most all of us are here?
What we experienced was traumatic and cut close to the heart. We come here to share our stories, our twi experiences,
........to help others, to warn others, to unravel the confusion and pain. We grieve when we see how twi shredded
lives and left good people "wounded on the spiritual battlefield."
The fiery confrontations that were senseless.......why? What kind of fury lies in the heart of a man who claims to be
the mog of the universe? And, why is there an inner circle of people who cover for his every move.....and still claim
to be christians? Why aren't others moved with compassion like so many of us who exited twi?
Yes, seeing public humiliation heaped upon my friends for wierwille's gain was painfully pathetic. And, how many not
only walked away from twi, but walked away from christianity altogether BECAUSE OF WIERWILLE AND COMPANY?
When one deeply grasps the truth of the gospels and has turned from the wicked ways of twi......is there enough strength
and willingness and compassion to speak against these injustices? Or, does one cower in hurt and shame and sorrow......
and silence?
What wierwille did was evil.
Maybe, there is some "spiritual justice" in knowing that wierwille died of liver cancer and eye cancer......his drunkenness
was self-indulgence and his narcissism clouded his perception to see spiritual truths. What a terrible and tragic end to a
man who deceived himself and was impaled on "the sword he carried."
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Steve Lortz
My own brother died of cancer in 2006. I can very well understand what you are saying. You and I may disagree about some things, but that doesn't mean we aren't sympatico at a deeper level.
Love,
Steve
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geisha779
Absolutely and without a doubt!
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skyrider
The ridicule is well deserving.
Another thing........that whole camera analogy in wierwille's blue book about getting "clear and focused" on one's needs in prayer,
and then twi doesn't even tell their followers about this cancer????
And, after his death.......twi trustees would tell us that vpw "died of a broken heart."
.
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excathedra
i think you would have to know me
i am deeply sorry for your loved one's sufferings and i mean that from the depth of my heart
actually, i don't even wish anything bad for wierwille, although you probably don't believe me
at this point, i don't care if anyone knows me
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Watered Garden
Anyone who had any kind of health issue was an affront to the doctrine of TWI. I would see people who were coping with blindness, cerebral palsy, or other chronic ailments for a while and then they were gone, vanished into thin air.
When I was diagnosed with IDDM I was immediately labeled as weak, without character, and surely having committed some grievous sin for God to smite me with this disease.
Caused at least in part by stress, adult onset type I diabetes, AKA juvenile onset diabetes, was probably brought on by a raging, flu-like viral infection combined with a genetic predisposition and aggravated by the stress of being in the FWC. But to them it was clear cut evidence of spiritual sickness and disease, which is only cured by amputation of the sick part from the healthy body.
So when I look back and realize that all these people are going to get sick and die, too, it seems very ironic to me. Do they think they will live forever, young, healthy and vigorous?
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OldSkool
No. Something I realized, and took some level of justice in for the way my family was treated: their time will come. Not that I relish the thought of anyone unhealthy.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
foolishly, yes, they thought Satan was assasinated on the day of Pentecost and Earth was once again the Garden of Eden, so no more sickness/illness/disease. Wierwille wasn't the only idiot who thought/beleved that, Herbert Armstrong of Worldwide Church of God was another.
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skyrider
Ironic, isn't it?
A "ministry" that prides itself in having truth, and all the right answers, and the mog of the universe in their midst....
was pathetically dismissive of others' health issues. What about the compassionate believing for DELIVERANCE?
What about the guy who fell out of the upper window during Paul's lengthy testimonies of God's goodness? Did Paul scold him
for FALLING ASLEEP? Did Paul send another guy down there to check on him? Did Paul go on to expound on 'attention to detail?'
No, no, and no. Paul went down himself.....and the Lord gave deliverance.
From everything I witnessed in my 8 years of corps/staff ----- wierwille was the antithesis of ACTIONABLE godly doctrine.
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Watered Garden
Yet, I can distinctly remember ministering healing, i.e. praying for people and seeing them get healed. One girl when I was a WOW had instant resolution of a vicious migraine. I don't recall the earliest years being like that. (1973-77). I do recall one time when my WOW sister, on her interim year from 4th WC, was ill and I offered to pray for her. She informed that a graduate of the Advanced Class should not get sick or should be able to believe for themselves without assistance. My reply was that I was not taking the Advanced Class, ever, because I knew I was weak at times and needed prayer and "ministering to."
Of course in FLO we were required to if we hadn't already.
But what a goofy thing to say. As I recall in the Book of Acts, Paul was stoned to death and the believers gathered around him and prayed for him until he was revived.
Another sad example of twisted scripture.
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excathedra
i can't understand this bullcrapola
my kid who is like a semi pain in the foot christian prays for me and he prays to his dead friend who overdosed to help him and he gets more results
goddangsonofa
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Grace Valerie Claire
OS, hot air perhaps. Â Bullsheet definitely!!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Sky, VPW was seriously mental ill; and you aren't. Â I think you expected him to react in a sane, and rational manner. Â But he couldn't, because he probably didn't know how. Â What a jealous, insecure, pathetic POS, for a human being. Â I can't believe you could deal with it for that many years. Â I would have done him to F-off, and left. Â Of course, that would have been easy for me to do; I never had a spouse, or kids. Â When you have a family, you have to put up with a lot more garbage, I think. Â I am so happy that you, and yours got out, and stayed out.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Sky, you seem like an intelligent, no Bullsheet man to me. Â Just my opinion.
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Grace Valerie Claire
My therapist told me once, that certain types of anger are unhealthy. Â I think unbridled anger would be one.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Way, you have a wonderful way with words!! Â I love your posts!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Way, the man was nuts, IMO!
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